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"Unrealistic" body goals
Replies
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SuzySunshine99 wrote: »I agree that no one should be discouraged from their goals, as long as they are safe and healthy.
But, there is a difference between "unrealistic" and "impossible".
Using yourself as an example, you said it took you over a decade to reach your goal. You proved that it was not impossible! But, many people (I would guess a majority), don't have the patience or dedication to stick with it for so long. People get frustrated after a while, and may end up settling for something less than their ultimate goal.
I think that, for trainers and other people in the fitness business, it's important to be honest with their clients. Saying something like, "That's a great goal, but it's going to be a long process and a lot of hard work to get there. Are you up for it?"
^^^This...2 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »SuzySunshine99 wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »SuzySunshine99 wrote: »I agree that no one should be discouraged from their goals, as long as they are safe and healthy.
But, there is a difference between "unrealistic" and "impossible".
Using yourself as an example, you said it took you over a decade to reach your goal. You proved that it was not impossible! But, many people (I would guess a majority), don't have the patience or dedication to stick with it for so long. People get frustrated after a while, and may end up settling for something less than their ultimate goal.
I think that, for trainers and other people in the fitness business, it's important to be honest with their clients. Saying something like, "That's a great goal, but it's going to be a long process and a lot of hard work to get there. Are you up for it?"
That's kind of my point; they're projecting their own limitations or lack of commitment onto someone else, after that person has already identified their goal. They act as if it's almost humanly impossible when hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people have already proved it possible. Maybe its insecurity?
It also depends on who is making the "unrealistic" comment. If it's the person's trainer, then the trainer is also trying to cover their own butt and tamp down expectations.
Ahh, I could see that. But that's a trainer that should get fired.
I think the place for realism in training is to be clear about how much effort and time is projected to reach a certain goal, not to tamp down expectations that are deemed unrealistic (unless the trainer literally does feel the result cannot be attained without surgery).
I'd expect a trainer to say "This type of goal from your starting point typically requires [x] months/years and the following consistent effort." Then I can decide whether or not I REALLY want that six pack or whatever.
If you're telling a trainer you want a six pack in three months, that's not realistic. But most trainers should be able to help most clients understand how to reach a goal given the required time and effort. Whether or not clients then want to actually DO that should be up to them.
Note: Obviously if the goal is based on photoshopped pictures or surgical alteration, that's not realistic. No trainer is going to be able to tell me how to look like a Kardashian just through diet and exercise.5 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »@IronIsMyTherapy Absolutely....mindset is a critical component of lifestyle. (Tell me I can't do something...I'll work even harder and prove you wrong. But encouragement is a plus.) Congratulations on the transformation.
Well, that's illogical. If you work harder when someone tells you you can't do something, how can encouragement be a plus?
Read it again and you will understand - "try EVEN harder" for emphasis.
When I suffered severe knee injuries a surgeon telling me I had to accept being disabled was a huge motivator to try EVEN harder. It didn't make me try as I was already trying harder than most people would.
When another surgeon with higher ambitions for his patients congratulated me on the progress I had made far and above the norm that was an encouragement to continue and a definite plus.
But you are saying that encouragement is inferior to discouragement as a motivator. Thus it is only a plus compared to someone not talking to you at all.0 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »In the last few days I've seen a girl in her 20s be told that wanting a flat belly is unrealistic and a guy be told that sub 10% bf was largely genetics.
When I started my journey, I was obese and from Day 1 I had a "unrealistic" goal physique. It took me over a decade but I achieved that goal and so have hundreds of thousands of other people so why call it unrealistic? It's only so if you believe it.
Instead of discouraging someone looking to achieve something remarkable, why not just say "go for it!"?
Thoughts?
Do you know what the background of the relationship between each trainer and these clients were? Was this an intro session, or had they been working together for months? Is it possible the trainer had become familiar with these clients' strengths and lifestyles and was starting to see that these goals "were" unrealistic for them?
I agree perhaps saying a goal is a long term goal that will require hard work, patience, and dedication and still might not be possible is a better choice of words than "unrealistic". But I'll add that we see lots of people (especially women) come here feeling like worthless failures because they can't get a flat belly or a big butt or a specific BF% and they have no idea that depending on your genetics these can be extreme and possibly "unrealistic" goals. There are a decent % of women who would need to become underweight to have the flat bellies they see in Insta posts. And maybe if someone had told them that 10 years ago they'd be happier and healthier today. Lots of folks live their entire lives feeling like crap about themselves because they are trying to live up to unrealistic expectations.
I know I'm being a bit pedantic, but hey, it's the Debate forum
I don't necessarily disagree with you, just not sure it's as cut and dry as it sounds. 10 -
Deleted.1
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IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »In the last few days I've seen a girl in her 20s be told that wanting a flat belly is unrealistic and a guy be told that sub 10% bf was largely genetics.
When I started my journey, I was obese and from Day 1 I had a "unrealistic" goal physique. It took me over a decade but I achieved that goal and so have hundreds of thousands of other people so why call it unrealistic? It's only so if you believe it.
Instead of discouraging someone looking to achieve something remarkable, why not just say "go for it!"?
Thoughts?
Do you know what the background of the relationship between each trainer and these clients were? Was this an intro session, or had they been working together for months? Is it possible the trainer had become familiar with these clients' strengths and lifestyles and was starting to see that these goals "were" unrealistic for them?
I agree perhaps saying a goal is a long term goal that will require hard work, patience, and dedication and still might not be possible is a better choice of words than "unrealistic". But I'll add that we see lots of people (especially women) come here feeling like worthless failures because they can't get a flat belly or a big butt or a specific BF% and they have no idea that depending on your genetics these can be extreme and possibly "unrealistic" goals. There are a decent % of women who would need to become underweight to have the flat bellies they see in Insta posts. And maybe if someone had told them that 10 years ago they'd be happier and healthier today. Lots of folks live their entire lives feeling like crap about themselves because they are trying to live up to unrealistic expectations.
I know I'm being a bit pedantic, but hey, it's the Debate forum I don't necessarily disagree with you, just not sure it's as cut and dry as it sounds.
It wasn't a trainer and client, it was random people on MFP replying to others that had made posts. The context was there to plainly see and it made me mad! Some guy whose profile picture looked in good shape said something like "I want a sub 10% beach body" and a guy replied that it would be virtually impossible without the right genetics. Sure, it will take work but that's just BS.4 -
SuzySunshine99 wrote: »I agree that no one should be discouraged from their goals, as long as they are safe and healthy. But, there is a difference between "unrealistic" and "impossible".I wish people would use "ambitious" rather than "unrealistic".
Saying that's an ambitious goal and you are going to have to work long and hard and may not ever get there is often accurate but shouldn't stop people from striving to be their best even if their best falls short of that ambitious goal.
I have to agree with @sijomial here.
"Unrealistic" is actually quite close to "impossible." In fact, "impossible" is the first synonym listed in my thesaurus for "unrealistic."
Using "unrealistic" is saying that the goal is literally not a real one for that person--that it is imaginary, illusory, completely beyond their abilities. At least, if you are going to tell someone their goal is an impossible dream you should explain, in a very detailed and specific manner, why you think that is. And if the reason is you don't think they have it in them, then maybe keep your mouth shut.
I've accomplished quite a few things my parents/peers told me were "unrealistic." Thank god I don't listen to most people.
THANK YOU! My point is who are we to impose that on someone else's physique goals, even if we feel they really are aiming high?? There are many people that have accomplished extraordinary transformations and that person might be next! If the heaviest person on here said "I want visible abs" I'd be stoked to help them work towards that! Even if they fail to realize that goal, I guarantee they'll have formed great habits, resilience, mental toughness and improved their physique. Again, I think people have no right to dampen someone else's goals by what THEY perceive to be that person's reality. Its pathetic.8 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »@IronIsMyTherapy Absolutely....mindset is a critical component of lifestyle. (Tell me I can't do something...I'll work even harder and prove you wrong. But encouragement is a plus.) Congratulations on the transformation.
Well, that's illogical. If you work harder when someone tells you you can't do something, how can encouragement be a plus?
Read it again and you will understand - "try EVEN harder" for emphasis.
When I suffered severe knee injuries a surgeon telling me I had to accept being disabled was a huge motivator to try EVEN harder. It didn't make me try as I was already trying harder than most people would.
When another surgeon with higher ambitions for his patients congratulated me on the progress I had made far and above the norm that was an encouragement to continue and a definite plus.
But you are saying that encouragement is inferior to discouragement as a motivator. Thus it is only a plus compared to someone not talking to you at all.
"But you are saying that encouragement is inferior to discouragement as a motivator."
Nope didn't say that at all, where did I rank the two experiences?
It certainly can be though. the kind of encouragement in the form of mindless platitudes spouted by trainers/coaches etc. (think Peleton adverts...) do absolutely nothing for me, just noise.
I also did not project that what works for me (and @4Phoenix ) on to everyone. Motivation is personal.
I said my surgeon telling me to accept disability was a great motivator to me - those words burned for years and were a part of my drive to exceed everyone's expectations. Everyone's apart from my own.
If you don't respond the same way to someone trying to crush your ambition that's fine by me, I fully understand many people wouldn't have reacted the same way as me.
"Thus it is only a plus compared to someone not talking to you at all."
Nonsensical statement. Nothing I wrote suggests that at all.
If you can't understand something ask for clarification but I think you are just doing the written version of listening to respond.
I'll expand just in case you want to understand....
The encouragement from the second surgeon was great, gave me feedback on what I had achieved, gave me guidance on mitigating the risk of further injury and a suggestion which allowed me to take my recovery to the next level. That is the kind of support and encouragement that works for me - guidance how to achieve something as opposed to telling someone not to even aim high.
6 -
Context is really important.
If someone is saying "I've been strength training and eating clean for 3 months now, and I don't look any different", then "your expectations are unrealistic" is pretty sensible advice.
We literally have young women posting photos of IG influencers who are clearly photoshopped into a bubble butt, tiny waist look, then posting photos of themselves as lovely but with an actual human womanly build, and asking how they can look like the influencer. It's reasonable to tell them their goal is unrealistic, though some glute gains and waist narrowing are possible.
There are cases where a particular OP has a bit of a history here, of posting about challenging goals, then popping up later with the same or a different goal but no sign of putting in the work, or even understanding what the work is (despite more patient guidance in earlier iterations that laid it out pretty clearly). (People will lose patience with that OP, or - worse - carry that impatience into other threads.)
But, yeah, sometimes we throw cold water on someone's goals, maybe for no good reason. I'm sure I've done it myself.
Adding, after reading more: The genetics/10% body fat one, I agree with you, kind of. I also understand that this is an open forum, and that some replies will be from people who burned themselves out in some way, and ended up bitter or resentful, and who can reply with negativity (and that cold-water bath) thinking that they're saving an OP from similar disappointment. It's not great, but it's human. That's one reason I think it's worthwhile, in some cases, to pile on and repeat good advice, to amplify it, and make it clearer that the negativity is a minority report.
But we're all human, and we'll disagree, for reasons good and bad, about what actually constitutes good advice (or the reverse).
It's good that you're challenging us here to think clearly about these things, and assess our reflexes, IMO.10 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »In the last few days I've seen a girl in her 20s be told that wanting a flat belly is unrealistic and a guy be told that sub 10% bf was largely genetics.
When I started my journey, I was obese and from Day 1 I had a "unrealistic" goal physique. It took me over a decade but I achieved that goal and so have hundreds of thousands of other people so why call it unrealistic? It's only so if you believe it.
Instead of discouraging someone looking to achieve something remarkable, why not just say "go for it!"?
Thoughts?
Do you know what the background of the relationship between each trainer and these clients were? Was this an intro session, or had they been working together for months? Is it possible the trainer had become familiar with these clients' strengths and lifestyles and was starting to see that these goals "were" unrealistic for them?
I agree perhaps saying a goal is a long term goal that will require hard work, patience, and dedication and still might not be possible is a better choice of words than "unrealistic". But I'll add that we see lots of people (especially women) come here feeling like worthless failures because they can't get a flat belly or a big butt or a specific BF% and they have no idea that depending on your genetics these can be extreme and possibly "unrealistic" goals. There are a decent % of women who would need to become underweight to have the flat bellies they see in Insta posts. And maybe if someone had told them that 10 years ago they'd be happier and healthier today. Lots of folks live their entire lives feeling like crap about themselves because they are trying to live up to unrealistic expectations.
I know I'm being a bit pedantic, but hey, it's the Debate forum I don't necessarily disagree with you, just not sure it's as cut and dry as it sounds.
It wasn't a trainer and client, it was random people on MFP replying to others that had made posts. The context was there to plainly see and it made me mad! Some guy whose profile picture looked in good shape said something like "I want a sub 10% beach body" and a guy replied that it would be virtually impossible without the right genetics. Sure, it will take work but that's just BS.
Oh, I guess I was getting further discussion in the thread confused with your OP.
Anyway, it's quite possible you saw people giving bad advice, it happens all the time, and not everyone is able to separate what's true for them with what's true for others. I would think best practice would be for you to give your own response to the OP with your experience so they could hear another side. That's the great thing about crowdsourcing in a public forum like this, you can get different points of view of how to solve your problem or reach your goal.
The other thing to remember is that some posters have a history here of asking the same questions over and over again with varying detail and some answers that might seem flippant or blunt are simply experienced posters who have seen that person's history and perceptions. Still you can always chime in with what you think is a more inspiring or useful point of view.8 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »SuzySunshine99 wrote: »I agree that no one should be discouraged from their goals, as long as they are safe and healthy. But, there is a difference between "unrealistic" and "impossible".I wish people would use "ambitious" rather than "unrealistic".
Saying that's an ambitious goal and you are going to have to work long and hard and may not ever get there is often accurate but shouldn't stop people from striving to be their best even if their best falls short of that ambitious goal.
I have to agree with @sijomial here.
"Unrealistic" is actually quite close to "impossible." In fact, "impossible" is the first synonym listed in my thesaurus for "unrealistic."
Using "unrealistic" is saying that the goal is literally not a real one for that person--that it is imaginary, illusory, completely beyond their abilities. At least, if you are going to tell someone their goal is an impossible dream you should explain, in a very detailed and specific manner, why you think that is. And if the reason is you don't think they have it in them, then maybe keep your mouth shut.
I've accomplished quite a few things my parents/peers told me were "unrealistic." Thank god I don't listen to most people.
THANK YOU! My point is who are we to impose that on someone else's physique goals, even if we feel they really are aiming high?? There are many people that have accomplished extraordinary transformations and that person might be next! If the heaviest person on here said "I want visible abs" I'd be stoked to help them work towards that! Even if they fail to realize that goal, I guarantee they'll have formed great habits, resilience, mental toughness and improved their physique. Again, I think people have no right to dampen someone else's goals by what THEY perceive to be that person's reality. Its pathetic.
When someone posts a question on a public forum, they are literally asking me to impose my opinion and previous experience on their goals. If a woman who is 5'7 and posts a picture where she has no curves, and asks how she can get down to 110lbs but still build a big round butt, I am NOT going to try to motivate her to spend the next 5 years trying to get there, I'm going to tell her how she can lose some weight and build some glutes but her goals are unrealistic so she might not want to kill herself trying to get there. You might not think that's useful, but based on all the women I've met over the last 40 or so years, I think it is.20 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »For some people, a flat belly is unrealistic because the belly is the last place they lose fat and to get the flatness they want they would have to drop to underweight body levels. Some women are already lean but have a small amount of natural belly pooch due to the uterus, and no amount or dieting will get rid of it, unless they want to become underweight. Most people can probably get a relatively flat stomach if they achieve a healthy weight.
And if you're carrying around the equivalent of a five-month fetus in fibroids, it's unrealistic to think you're going to have a flat belly, either.
But it's good to have a man explain to us that it's wrong to say that it's unrealistic. /s
Ha! I'm not the woman who wanted a flat belly, but I am carrying around the equivalent of a five-month fetus in fibroids, which I assume menopause will shrink greatly, but not completely, and just this week got rid of a bunch of short shirts. Even if I ever do manage to get back to the weight I was at that size again, I'll never again have the abdomen I had 20 years ago, and it would indeed be unrealistic to tell me otherwise.11 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »In the last few days I've seen a girl in her 20s be told that wanting a flat belly is unrealistic and a guy be told that sub 10% bf was largely genetics.
When I started my journey, I was obese and from Day 1 I had a "unrealistic" goal physique. It took me over a decade but I achieved that goal and so have hundreds of thousands of other people so why call it unrealistic? It's only so if you believe it.
Instead of discouraging someone looking to achieve something remarkable, why not just say "go for it!"?
Thoughts?
Do you know what the background of the relationship between each trainer and these clients were? Was this an intro session, or had they been working together for months? Is it possible the trainer had become familiar with these clients' strengths and lifestyles and was starting to see that these goals "were" unrealistic for them?
I agree perhaps saying a goal is a long term goal that will require hard work, patience, and dedication and still might not be possible is a better choice of words than "unrealistic". But I'll add that we see lots of people (especially women) come here feeling like worthless failures because they can't get a flat belly or a big butt or a specific BF% and they have no idea that depending on your genetics these can be extreme and possibly "unrealistic" goals. There are a decent % of women who would need to become underweight to have the flat bellies they see in Insta posts. And maybe if someone had told them that 10 years ago they'd be happier and healthier today. Lots of folks live their entire lives feeling like crap about themselves because they are trying to live up to unrealistic expectations.
I know I'm being a bit pedantic, but hey, it's the Debate forum I don't necessarily disagree with you, just not sure it's as cut and dry as it sounds.
It wasn't a trainer and client, it was random people on MFP replying to others that had made posts. The context was there to plainly see and it made me mad! Some guy whose profile picture looked in good shape said something like "I want a sub 10% beach body" and a guy replied that it would be virtually impossible without the right genetics. Sure, it will take work but that's just BS.
You might have gotten different responses if you shared the context in the OP, or earlier in the thread. There were several posts from people who got the impression this was in a trainer-client context, as I recall.1 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »@IronIsMyTherapy Absolutely....mindset is a critical component of lifestyle. (Tell me I can't do something...I'll work even harder and prove you wrong. But encouragement is a plus.) Congratulations on the transformation.
Well, that's illogical. If you work harder when someone tells you you can't do something, how can encouragement be a plus?
Read it again and you will understand - "try EVEN harder" for emphasis.
When I suffered severe knee injuries a surgeon telling me I had to accept being disabled was a huge motivator to try EVEN harder. It didn't make me try as I was already trying harder than most people would.
When another surgeon with higher ambitions for his patients congratulated me on the progress I had made far and above the norm that was an encouragement to continue and a definite plus.
But you are saying that encouragement is inferior to discouragement as a motivator. Thus it is only a plus compared to someone not talking to you at all.
"But you are saying that encouragement is inferior to discouragement as a motivator."
Nope didn't say that at all, where did I rank the two experiences?
It certainly can be though. the kind of encouragement in the form of mindless platitudes spouted by trainers/coaches etc. (think Peleton adverts...) do absolutely nothing for me, just noise.
I also did not project that what works for me (and @4Phoenix ) on to everyone. Motivation is personal.
I said my surgeon telling me to accept disability was a great motivator to me - those words burned for years and were a part of my drive to exceed everyone's expectations. Everyone's apart from my own.
If you don't respond the same way to someone trying to crush your ambition that's fine by me, I fully understand many people wouldn't have reacted the same way as me.
"Thus it is only a plus compared to someone not talking to you at all."
Nonsensical statement. Nothing I wrote suggests that at all.
If you can't understand something ask for clarification but I think you are just doing the written version of listening to respond.
I'll expand just in case you want to understand....
The encouragement from the second surgeon was great, gave me feedback on what I had achieved, gave me guidance on mitigating the risk of further injury and a suggestion which allowed me to take my recovery to the next level. That is the kind of support and encouragement that works for me - guidance how to achieve something as opposed to telling someone not to even aim high.
Would it have been better if the surgeon had encouraged you to to expect you could achieve whatever your goal was? Then the surgeon's discouragement wasn't really a great motivator. If your outcome was better because he discouraged you than it would have been if he had encouraged you, then encouragement wouldn't be a plus.
You don't have to directly compare the two.
X > Y > X is nonsensical.1 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »@IronIsMyTherapy Absolutely....mindset is a critical component of lifestyle. (Tell me I can't do something...I'll work even harder and prove you wrong. But encouragement is a plus.) Congratulations on the transformation.
Well, that's illogical. If you work harder when someone tells you you can't do something, how can encouragement be a plus?
Read it again and you will understand - "try EVEN harder" for emphasis.
When I suffered severe knee injuries a surgeon telling me I had to accept being disabled was a huge motivator to try EVEN harder. It didn't make me try as I was already trying harder than most people would.
When another surgeon with higher ambitions for his patients congratulated me on the progress I had made far and above the norm that was an encouragement to continue and a definite plus.
But you are saying that encouragement is inferior to discouragement as a motivator. Thus it is only a plus compared to someone not talking to you at all.
"But you are saying that encouragement is inferior to discouragement as a motivator."
Nope didn't say that at all, where did I rank the two experiences?
It certainly can be though. the kind of encouragement in the form of mindless platitudes spouted by trainers/coaches etc. (think Peleton adverts...) do absolutely nothing for me, just noise.
I also did not project that what works for me (and @4Phoenix ) on to everyone. Motivation is personal.
I said my surgeon telling me to accept disability was a great motivator to me - those words burned for years and were a part of my drive to exceed everyone's expectations. Everyone's apart from my own.
If you don't respond the same way to someone trying to crush your ambition that's fine by me, I fully understand many people wouldn't have reacted the same way as me.
"Thus it is only a plus compared to someone not talking to you at all."
Nonsensical statement. Nothing I wrote suggests that at all.
If you can't understand something ask for clarification but I think you are just doing the written version of listening to respond.
I'll expand just in case you want to understand....
The encouragement from the second surgeon was great, gave me feedback on what I had achieved, gave me guidance on mitigating the risk of further injury and a suggestion which allowed me to take my recovery to the next level. That is the kind of support and encouragement that works for me - guidance how to achieve something as opposed to telling someone not to even aim high.
Would it have been better if the surgeon had encouraged you to to expect you could achieve whatever your goal was? Then the surgeon's discouragement wasn't really a great motivator. If your outcome was better because he discouraged you than it would have been if he had encouraged you, then encouragement wouldn't be a plus.
You don't have to directly compare the two.
X > Y > X is nonsensical.
I've explained my experience and mindset clearly and must conclude you are being deliberately obtuse.
Not worth continuing this as you are going to ridiculous lengths just to be argumentative.7 -
I feel like we're almost having two separate discussions here.
There are goals that are relatively difficult or very hard to achieve, but they are realistic in that the human body can generally attain them given sufficient time and effort. They may not be realistic for ME in terms of the time and effort I'm willing to put in, but I'm the limitation. It's still an attainable result.
There are also goals that can only be achieved through cosmetic surgery or a unlikely combination of genetics.
I think that people should feel free to go after very difficult goals and that the important thing is that they have realistic expectations about the time and effort involved.
If someone is asking how training or diet can make them look like (celebrity x), it can be useful to let them know that their results are not due to training.
It's like any type of goal. If I say my goal is to climb Mount Everest, that's a realistic goal in sense that it is something that many people have done. It's currently unlikely for me in particular, in that I have never climbed a mountain and I am not saving up funds for an Everest expedition. But if I told an expedition guide that it was my goal, I'd expect him or her to outline the current obstacles for me and what I needed to begin doing instead of just telling me it could never happen.
But let's say I had a different goal: to visit Atlantis. I'd fully expect people to let me know that wasn't going to happen, as it doesn't exist.
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janejellyroll wrote: »I feel like we're almost having two separate discussions here.
There are goals that are relatively difficult or very hard to achieve, but they are realistic in that the human body can generally attain them given sufficient time and effort. They may not be realistic for ME in terms of the time and effort I'm willing to put in, but I'm the limitation. It's still an attainable result.
There are also goals that can only be achieved through cosmetic surgery or a unlikely combination of genetics.
I think that people should feel free to go after very difficult goals and that the important thing is that they have realistic expectations about the time and effort involved.
If someone is asking how training or diet can make them look like (celebrity x), it can be useful to let them know that their results are not due to training.
It's like any type of goal. If I say my goal is to climb Mount Everest, that's a realistic goal in sense that it is something that many people have done. It's currently unlikely for me in particular, in that I have never climbed a mountain and I am not saving up funds for an Everest expedition. But if I told an expedition guide that it was my goal, I'd expect him or her to outline the current obstacles for me and what I needed to begin doing instead of just telling me it could never happen.
But let's say I had a different goal: to visit Atlantis. I'd fully expect people to let me know that wasn't going to happen, as it doesn't exist.
You're right. And what I'm taking issue with is the people on this site telling others that are aiming for a difficult but attainable goal that its unrealistic.3 -
Considering the limited information we've been given out of context about the statements that OP has issue with, I'm not sure it's clear whether the goals in question were simply difficult, were obviously unrealistic, or maybe just seemed difficult but realistic to a specific poster. That might be why responses are all over the place.
I also think two reasonable, well meaning people could disagree about whether some more extreme goals are unrealistic or just difficult. I think some of us are just pushing back on the idea that being motivational is objectively better than being discouraging in all situations a poster might run across on the boards here.
If a woman literally just posted "How can I get a flat stomach?" and someone just responded that it's not a realistic goal, sure I'd agree that's unnecessarily discouraging. But without context, I'm not going to agree that that kind of response is obviously "pathetic", as I rarely see threads here that are that cut and dry.9 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »@IronIsMyTherapy Absolutely....mindset is a critical component of lifestyle. (Tell me I can't do something...I'll work even harder and prove you wrong. But encouragement is a plus.) Congratulations on the transformation.
Well, that's illogical. If you work harder when someone tells you you can't do something, how can encouragement be a plus?
Read it again and you will understand - "try EVEN harder" for emphasis.
When I suffered severe knee injuries a surgeon telling me I had to accept being disabled was a huge motivator to try EVEN harder. It didn't make me try as I was already trying harder than most people would.
When another surgeon with higher ambitions for his patients congratulated me on the progress I had made far and above the norm that was an encouragement to continue and a definite plus.
But you are saying that encouragement is inferior to discouragement as a motivator. Thus it is only a plus compared to someone not talking to you at all.
"But you are saying that encouragement is inferior to discouragement as a motivator."
Nope didn't say that at all, where did I rank the two experiences?
It certainly can be though. the kind of encouragement in the form of mindless platitudes spouted by trainers/coaches etc. (think Peleton adverts...) do absolutely nothing for me, just noise.
I also did not project that what works for me (and @4Phoenix ) on to everyone. Motivation is personal.
I said my surgeon telling me to accept disability was a great motivator to me - those words burned for years and were a part of my drive to exceed everyone's expectations. Everyone's apart from my own.
If you don't respond the same way to someone trying to crush your ambition that's fine by me, I fully understand many people wouldn't have reacted the same way as me.
"Thus it is only a plus compared to someone not talking to you at all."
Nonsensical statement. Nothing I wrote suggests that at all.
If you can't understand something ask for clarification but I think you are just doing the written version of listening to respond.
I'll expand just in case you want to understand....
The encouragement from the second surgeon was great, gave me feedback on what I had achieved, gave me guidance on mitigating the risk of further injury and a suggestion which allowed me to take my recovery to the next level. That is the kind of support and encouragement that works for me - guidance how to achieve something as opposed to telling someone not to even aim high.
Would it have been better if the surgeon had encouraged you to to expect you could achieve whatever your goal was? Then the surgeon's discouragement wasn't really a great motivator. If your outcome was better because he discouraged you than it would have been if he had encouraged you, then encouragement wouldn't be a plus.
You don't have to directly compare the two.
X > Y > X is nonsensical.
I've explained my experience and mindset clearly and must conclude you are being deliberately obtuse.
Not worth continuing this as you are going to ridiculous lengths just to be argumentative.
It's not clear to me whether you consider encouragement or discouragement to be more motivating. Despite repeated efforts, you don't seem to understand that I find that unclear, and now you're accusing me of bad faith, so I agree it is best to end the discussion.1 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »@IronIsMyTherapy Absolutely....mindset is a critical component of lifestyle. (Tell me I can't do something...I'll work even harder and prove you wrong. But encouragement is a plus.) Congratulations on the transformation.
Well, that's illogical. If you work harder when someone tells you you can't do something, how can encouragement be a plus?
Read it again and you will understand - "try EVEN harder" for emphasis.
When I suffered severe knee injuries a surgeon telling me I had to accept being disabled was a huge motivator to try EVEN harder. It didn't make me try as I was already trying harder than most people would.
When another surgeon with higher ambitions for his patients congratulated me on the progress I had made far and above the norm that was an encouragement to continue and a definite plus.
But you are saying that encouragement is inferior to discouragement as a motivator. Thus it is only a plus compared to someone not talking to you at all.
"But you are saying that encouragement is inferior to discouragement as a motivator."
Nope didn't say that at all, where did I rank the two experiences?
It certainly can be though. the kind of encouragement in the form of mindless platitudes spouted by trainers/coaches etc. (think Peleton adverts...) do absolutely nothing for me, just noise.
I also did not project that what works for me (and @4Phoenix ) on to everyone. Motivation is personal.
I said my surgeon telling me to accept disability was a great motivator to me - those words burned for years and were a part of my drive to exceed everyone's expectations. Everyone's apart from my own.
If you don't respond the same way to someone trying to crush your ambition that's fine by me, I fully understand many people wouldn't have reacted the same way as me.
"Thus it is only a plus compared to someone not talking to you at all."
Nonsensical statement. Nothing I wrote suggests that at all.
If you can't understand something ask for clarification but I think you are just doing the written version of listening to respond.
I'll expand just in case you want to understand....
The encouragement from the second surgeon was great, gave me feedback on what I had achieved, gave me guidance on mitigating the risk of further injury and a suggestion which allowed me to take my recovery to the next level. That is the kind of support and encouragement that works for me - guidance how to achieve something as opposed to telling someone not to even aim high.
Would it have been better if the surgeon had encouraged you to to expect you could achieve whatever your goal was? Then the surgeon's discouragement wasn't really a great motivator. If your outcome was better because he discouraged you than it would have been if he had encouraged you, then encouragement wouldn't be a plus.
You don't have to directly compare the two.
X > Y > X is nonsensical.
I've explained my experience and mindset clearly and must conclude you are being deliberately obtuse.
Not worth continuing this as you are going to ridiculous lengths just to be argumentative.
It's not clear to me whether you consider encouragement or discouragement to be more motivating. Despite repeated efforts, you don't seem to understand that I find that unclear, and now you're accusing me of bad faith, so I agree it is best to end the discussion.
This is the first time you have asked me a simple question without telling me my opinion / feelings or trying to deconstruct / reconstruct my words out of context so I will answer.
Being told by the first surgeon I couldn't do something (virtually anything beyond walking and then in the future having a TKR) was huge boost to my motivation. It didn’t create the motivation but did turbo-charge it. It helped to drive me to regain my lost fitness, take up new sports, be a far better squash player than before, run further than ever - despite hating distance running! Even to have surgery to fix up the other knee which was repairable. When I was/am forced to concede that there are things I cannot do it hurts and I feel he gets a little victory almost 30 years later, that he wins the odd battle but I won the war is a source of satisfaction.
Getting encouragement from the second surgeon was a fleeting plus. Nice to hear I had recovered more capability than most people but didn’t do anything for my motivation either way.
In terms of the OP if I was the guy stating a desire to get to under 10% BF, naysayers would motivate me to try harder, simple encouragement would fall into the category of “that’s nice of them” but not change anything, practical advice might influence me. Other people would flip encouragement and discouragement the other way round but this is me, I respond stronger to a challenge than to praise.
6 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »@IronIsMyTherapy Absolutely....mindset is a critical component of lifestyle. (Tell me I can't do something...I'll work even harder and prove you wrong. But encouragement is a plus.) Congratulations on the transformation.
Well, that's illogical. If you work harder when someone tells you you can't do something, how can encouragement be a plus?
Read it again and you will understand - "try EVEN harder" for emphasis.
When I suffered severe knee injuries a surgeon telling me I had to accept being disabled was a huge motivator to try EVEN harder. It didn't make me try as I was already trying harder than most people would.
When another surgeon with higher ambitions for his patients congratulated me on the progress I had made far and above the norm that was an encouragement to continue and a definite plus.
But you are saying that encouragement is inferior to discouragement as a motivator. Thus it is only a plus compared to someone not talking to you at all.
"But you are saying that encouragement is inferior to discouragement as a motivator."
Nope didn't say that at all, where did I rank the two experiences?
It certainly can be though. the kind of encouragement in the form of mindless platitudes spouted by trainers/coaches etc. (think Peleton adverts...) do absolutely nothing for me, just noise.
I also did not project that what works for me (and @4Phoenix ) on to everyone. Motivation is personal.
I said my surgeon telling me to accept disability was a great motivator to me - those words burned for years and were a part of my drive to exceed everyone's expectations. Everyone's apart from my own.
If you don't respond the same way to someone trying to crush your ambition that's fine by me, I fully understand many people wouldn't have reacted the same way as me.
"Thus it is only a plus compared to someone not talking to you at all."
Nonsensical statement. Nothing I wrote suggests that at all.
If you can't understand something ask for clarification but I think you are just doing the written version of listening to respond.
I'll expand just in case you want to understand....
The encouragement from the second surgeon was great, gave me feedback on what I had achieved, gave me guidance on mitigating the risk of further injury and a suggestion which allowed me to take my recovery to the next level. That is the kind of support and encouragement that works for me - guidance how to achieve something as opposed to telling someone not to even aim high.
Would it have been better if the surgeon had encouraged you to to expect you could achieve whatever your goal was? Then the surgeon's discouragement wasn't really a great motivator. If your outcome was better because he discouraged you than it would have been if he had encouraged you, then encouragement wouldn't be a plus.
You don't have to directly compare the two.
X > Y > X is nonsensical.
I've explained my experience and mindset clearly and must conclude you are being deliberately obtuse.
Not worth continuing this as you are going to ridiculous lengths just to be argumentative.
It's not clear to me whether you consider encouragement or discouragement to be more motivating. Despite repeated efforts, you don't seem to understand that I find that unclear, and now you're accusing me of bad faith, so I agree it is best to end the discussion.
This is the first time you have asked me a simple question without telling me my opinion / feelings or trying to deconstruct / reconstruct my words out of context so I will answer.
Being told by the first surgeon I couldn't do something (virtually anything beyond walking and then in the future having a TKR) was huge boost to my motivation. It didn’t create the motivation but did turbo-charge it. It helped to drive me to regain my lost fitness, take up new sports, be a far better squash player than before, run further than ever - despite hating distance running! Even to have surgery to fix up the other knee which was repairable. When I was/am forced to concede that there are things I cannot do it hurts and I feel he gets a little victory almost 30 years later, that he wins the odd battle but I won the war is a source of satisfaction.
Getting encouragement from the second surgeon was a fleeting plus. Nice to hear I had recovered more capability than most people but didn’t do anything for my motivation either way.
In terms of the OP if I was the guy stating a desire to get to under 10% BF, naysayers would motivate me to try harder, simple encouragement would fall into the category of “that’s nice of them” but not change anything, practical advice might influence me. Other people would flip encouragement and discouragement the other way round but this is me, I respond stronger to a challenge than to praise.
This is me too... I love it when people say I can't do something because that motivates me to go out and do that very thing (I guess that I like to prove people wrong about me).4 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »@IronIsMyTherapy Absolutely....mindset is a critical component of lifestyle. (Tell me I can't do something...I'll work even harder and prove you wrong. But encouragement is a plus.) Congratulations on the transformation.
Well, that's illogical. If you work harder when someone tells you you can't do something, how can encouragement be a plus?
Read it again and you will understand - "try EVEN harder" for emphasis.
When I suffered severe knee injuries a surgeon telling me I had to accept being disabled was a huge motivator to try EVEN harder. It didn't make me try as I was already trying harder than most people would.
When another surgeon with higher ambitions for his patients congratulated me on the progress I had made far and above the norm that was an encouragement to continue and a definite plus.
But you are saying that encouragement is inferior to discouragement as a motivator. Thus it is only a plus compared to someone not talking to you at all.
"But you are saying that encouragement is inferior to discouragement as a motivator."
Nope didn't say that at all, where did I rank the two experiences?
It certainly can be though. the kind of encouragement in the form of mindless platitudes spouted by trainers/coaches etc. (think Peleton adverts...) do absolutely nothing for me, just noise.
I also did not project that what works for me (and @4Phoenix ) on to everyone. Motivation is personal.
I said my surgeon telling me to accept disability was a great motivator to me - those words burned for years and were a part of my drive to exceed everyone's expectations. Everyone's apart from my own.
If you don't respond the same way to someone trying to crush your ambition that's fine by me, I fully understand many people wouldn't have reacted the same way as me.
"Thus it is only a plus compared to someone not talking to you at all."
Nonsensical statement. Nothing I wrote suggests that at all.
If you can't understand something ask for clarification but I think you are just doing the written version of listening to respond.
I'll expand just in case you want to understand....
The encouragement from the second surgeon was great, gave me feedback on what I had achieved, gave me guidance on mitigating the risk of further injury and a suggestion which allowed me to take my recovery to the next level. That is the kind of support and encouragement that works for me - guidance how to achieve something as opposed to telling someone not to even aim high.
Would it have been better if the surgeon had encouraged you to to expect you could achieve whatever your goal was? Then the surgeon's discouragement wasn't really a great motivator. If your outcome was better because he discouraged you than it would have been if he had encouraged you, then encouragement wouldn't be a plus.
You don't have to directly compare the two.
X > Y > X is nonsensical.
I've explained my experience and mindset clearly and must conclude you are being deliberately obtuse.
Not worth continuing this as you are going to ridiculous lengths just to be argumentative.
It's not clear to me whether you consider encouragement or discouragement to be more motivating. Despite repeated efforts, you don't seem to understand that I find that unclear, and now you're accusing me of bad faith, so I agree it is best to end the discussion.
This is the first time you have asked me a simple question without telling me my opinion / feelings or trying to deconstruct / reconstruct my words out of context so I will answer.
Being told by the first surgeon I couldn't do something (virtually anything beyond walking and then in the future having a TKR) was huge boost to my motivation. It didn’t create the motivation but did turbo-charge it. It helped to drive me to regain my lost fitness, take up new sports, be a far better squash player than before, run further than ever - despite hating distance running! Even to have surgery to fix up the other knee which was repairable. When I was/am forced to concede that there are things I cannot do it hurts and I feel he gets a little victory almost 30 years later, that he wins the odd battle but I won the war is a source of satisfaction.
Getting encouragement from the second surgeon was a fleeting plus. Nice to hear I had recovered more capability than most people but didn’t do anything for my motivation either way.
In terms of the OP if I was the guy stating a desire to get to under 10% BF, naysayers would motivate me to try harder, simple encouragement would fall into the category of “that’s nice of them” but not change anything, practical advice might influence me. Other people would flip encouragement and discouragement the other way round but this is me, I respond stronger to a challenge than to praise.
Thank you. That's much clearer.1 -
With respect the OP has stated he’s not natural. His physique IS unrealistic, in that he has stated previously he could not obtain it by natural means. It’s clearly POSSIBLE but only if you are open to the same enhancements.
8 -
As long as you can achieve your goals and maintain it in a healthy way I totally agree. Body competitions are cool but wildly unhealthy. If you enjoy the challenge then go for it but ask anyone who has ever competed if they believe that physique is sustainable. We all have a set point of where our body fat wants to be. If you diet too long or too much the hunger hormone WILL consume your every thought and eventually we all cave in to hunger. With the proper nutrition plan focused on high volume, low calorie dense foods, will really help you in keeping your desired physique.3
-
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »SuzySunshine99 wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »SuzySunshine99 wrote: »I agree that no one should be discouraged from their goals, as long as they are safe and healthy.
But, there is a difference between "unrealistic" and "impossible".
Using yourself as an example, you said it took you over a decade to reach your goal. You proved that it was not impossible! But, many people (I would guess a majority), don't have the patience or dedication to stick with it for so long. People get frustrated after a while, and may end up settling for something less than their ultimate goal.
I think that, for trainers and other people in the fitness business, it's important to be honest with their clients. Saying something like, "That's a great goal, but it's going to be a long process and a lot of hard work to get there. Are you up for it?"
That's kind of my point; they're projecting their own limitations or lack of commitment onto someone else, after that person has already identified their goal. They act as if it's almost humanly impossible when hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people have already proved it possible. Maybe its insecurity?
It also depends on who is making the "unrealistic" comment. If it's the person's trainer, then the trainer is also trying to cover their own butt and tamp down expectations.
Ahh, I could see that. But that's a trainer that should get fired.
Before I knew WTF I was talking about, I told my coach I wanted to do a BB show in April. He didn't say I was stupid or crazy, but said that might be unrealistic in terms of not having adequate time to diet down at a reasonably safe rate & still achieve the condition I was going after onstage. He didn't tell me I couldn't do it, but stressed that I would get better results & have a better process overall if I looked for a contest later in the year instead. My timeframe was ill-conceived and my original expectations were unrealistic.11 -
rheddmobile wrote: »With respect the OP has stated he’s not natural. His physique IS unrealistic, in that he has stated previously he could not obtain it by natural means. It’s clearly POSSIBLE but only if you are open to the same enhancements.
Youre right about me, but I disagree that it's only possible that way. Theres of lot people natural that have better physiques than me. My physique isnt extraordinary imo. I dont believe my physique is unrealistic for someone natural but I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about wanting to have a flat belly or single digit bf.2 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »SuzySunshine99 wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »SuzySunshine99 wrote: »I agree that no one should be discouraged from their goals, as long as they are safe and healthy.
But, there is a difference between "unrealistic" and "impossible".
Using yourself as an example, you said it took you over a decade to reach your goal. You proved that it was not impossible! But, many people (I would guess a majority), don't have the patience or dedication to stick with it for so long. People get frustrated after a while, and may end up settling for something less than their ultimate goal.
I think that, for trainers and other people in the fitness business, it's important to be honest with their clients. Saying something like, "That's a great goal, but it's going to be a long process and a lot of hard work to get there. Are you up for it?"
That's kind of my point; they're projecting their own limitations or lack of commitment onto someone else, after that person has already identified their goal. They act as if it's almost humanly impossible when hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people have already proved it possible. Maybe its insecurity?
It also depends on who is making the "unrealistic" comment. If it's the person's trainer, then the trainer is also trying to cover their own butt and tamp down expectations.
Ahh, I could see that. But that's a trainer that should get fired.
Before I knew WTF I was talking about, I told my coach I wanted to do a BB show in April. He didn't say I was stupid or crazy, but said that might be unrealistic in terms of not having adequate time to diet down at a reasonably safe rate & still achieve the condition I was going after onstage. He didn't tell me I couldn't do it, but stressed that I would get better results & have a better process overall if I looked for a contest later in the year instead. My timeframe was ill-conceived and my original expectations were unrealistic.
I have competed and you're right. I also agree with adding some reality to how LONG it might take but it's not like your trainer said your goal to compete was unrealistic in itself. I'm taking issue with people telling other that things like a flat stomach or sub 10% bf is unrealistic without knowing where they're at currently.0 -
Which post or posts are you referring to? You keep going on how some people from this community are not encouraging enough for you.6
-
L1zardQueen wrote: »Which post or posts are you referring to? You keep going on how some people from this community are not encouraging enough for you.
Yep, I'm curious too. I've been here a long time and this just seems like the OP is determined to chastise some posters (whoever they may be). Yes, a few do what the OP is all upset about, but the majority do not. I'm following this thread and just shaking my head. There are some posters with a history (but we can't mention that) and they make repeated threads on achieving a certain goal, obsession sometimes, and they have been told repeatedly that it takes work to get there. They keep coming back with fresh threads and with the same goals and frustrations, but after the 3rd thread you just know they are not going to take any of the advice. People start to not take those posters seriously. That's what I see.9 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »With respect the OP has stated he’s not natural. His physique IS unrealistic, in that he has stated previously he could not obtain it by natural means. It’s clearly POSSIBLE but only if you are open to the same enhancements.
Youre right about me, but I disagree that it's only possible that way. Theres of lot people natural that have better physiques than me. My physique isnt extraordinary imo. I dont believe my physique is unrealistic for someone natural but I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about wanting to have a flat belly or single digit bf.
Well... for many women, who tend to lose that pouch of fat under the navel last, a perfectly flat belly is possible, but only if they go down to a body fat level at which they lose their period. I’m not sure unrealistic is the right word, since clearly many female athletes are willing to lose their periods, but “not necessarily the best plan if you’re interested in health and well-being rather than appearance,” is sometimes definitely the case.
I haven’t seen too much of the behavior you describe on the forums, but there are a couple of people in particular who have histories of eating disorder who tend to kind of jump on newbies who start out at normal BMI and want to make drastic lifestyle changes. Maybe a little projecting their own behavior onto others, maybe a little bit they have a point sometimes.9
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