Our culture is set up for obesity.
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Why must these fights constantly swing from one extreme to the other?
In these pie fights it always tends to boil down to someone screaming that...
It's all on the individual (to magically know what a restaurant as put in its food and what it's caloric load and/or serving size might be. Can't you tell just by looking at it whether it's loaded with butter, sodium, sugar, because of course we can easily judge with our eyes what ALL the ingredients may have been in a prepared item might be, exacty how much it weighs (from sight) and how many calories that actually entails (from sight.) It's oh so obvious, you stupid consumer! How can you not magically intuit all of this? Bad consumer!)
Either that or...
You must be arguing that it's all on the restaurant to monitor the individual and how dare you!! Because freemdomz and capitalism and "my" (yours, mine, Ayn Rand's, whoevers) idiosyncratic definition of capitalism says more is always better and more valuable and as long as they (whoever they may be) are making more profit there's no need to look at any broader impact because more is more important and people don't need to know anything beyond how much something costs (certainly not what's in what they purchase. That's proprietary info for the seller, consumers... not so much) because the ony thing there's profit to be made! Profit is the be all-end all, ya'll! Nothing else (really) matters.
Why most it always seem to be argued in terms of polar endd of the spectrum as though there is not a vast array of possible (reasonable!) choices in between?
It's perfectly possible to say that the individual is in charge of what they choose to eat without ignoring that we are also subject of influences that -- duh! -- influence them. Being given information so that people may make informed decisions is not OMG teh evil! Nor is it OMG! Teh socialismz, you commie, pinko hippies!
On the other hand, it's perfectly possible to say that restaurants/businesses are perfectly entitled to serve whatever the heck they wish to (given cleanliness and basic food safety, of course) such that if someone wishes to eat 3000 calories of pure crisco covered with high fructose GMO corn syrup on top, they are perfectly entitled to do so, and someone else is perfectly entitled to sell it to them and to make a profit while doing so. (Though it might be fair if all involved are equally as informed on what they're doing.)
It's possible to believe that, given that the seller and the buyer exist within a community, that it's a civilized rather than immoral imposition to believe that sellers should adequately label what it is they are selling and how much consitutes a serving as a fair and reasonable business practice (and it would be great to believe they could do this out of the goodness of their hearts, but let's also be practical enough about human nature to admit that good hearts can be blinded at times when profit motive is involved, so setting it as an ethical practice isn't really OMG! how uncapitalist of you! How dare you have expectations of a corporation profiting within a community to have any oblgation to the society within which it exists... other than how much money they can profit from it! What could possible go wrong? (I mean, other than things like the fairly unregulated financial meltdowns like 2008, but other than that...) By this sort of line of thought they could sell you cow-dung pie under the title 'brown deliciousness!' and consumers would have no right to know what the content of 'brown deliciousness' actually might be, because apparently consumers have sold all of rights to sellers the minute they choose to consume. Is that it..?)
Where's the middle ground? There are rights and obligations of the individual *and* the rights and obligations of the business community too...and there's the ability of any functioning civilization to negotiate reasonable ways to get along with one another such that there's room for both to exist without onerous exploitation. (And a grand tradition of it dating back more than 5000 years from the Hammurabi's code, to the ancient Egyptians, etc. It's almost always part of civilized society because anarchy and exploitation has a way of not working out for a lot of people...).
Why cannot there be a functioning middle ground, even in heated debate? Why must all arguments strive to stake out the most polarized position possible?
Because it's the internet and the middle ground gets lost...0 -
Why must these fights constantly swing from one extreme to the other?
In these pie fights it always tends to boil down to someone screaming that...
It's all on the individual (to magically know what a restaurant as put in its food and what it's caloric load and/or serving size might be. Can't you tell just by looking at it whether it's loaded with butter, sodium, sugar, because of course we can easily judge with our eyes what ALL the ingredients may have been in a prepared item might be, exacty how much it weighs (from sight) and how many calories that actually entails (from sight.) It's oh so obvious, you stupid consumer! How can you not magically intuit all of this? Bad consumer!)
Either that or...
You must be arguing that it's all on the restaurant to monitor the individual and how dare you!! Because freemdomz and capitalism and "my" (yours, mine, Ayn Rand's, whoevers) idiosyncratic definition of capitalism says more is always better and more valuable and as long as they (whoever they may be) are making more profit there's no need to look at any broader impact because more is more important and people don't need to know anything beyond how much something costs (certainly not what's in what they purchase. That's proprietary info for the seller, consumers... not so much) because the ony thing there's profit to be made! Profit is the be all-end all, ya'll! Nothing else (really) matters.
Why most it always seem to be argued in terms of polar endd of the spectrum as though there is not a vast array of possible (reasonable!) choices in between?
It's perfectly possible to say that the individual is in charge of what they choose to eat without ignoring that we are also subject of influences that -- duh! -- influence them. Being given information so that people may make informed decisions is not OMG teh evil! Nor is it OMG! Teh socialismz, you commie, pinko hippies!
On the other hand, it's perfectly possible to say that restaurants/businesses are perfectly entitled to serve whatever the heck they wish to (given cleanliness and basic food safety, of course) such that if someone wishes to eat 3000 calories of pure crisco covered with high fructose GMO corn syrup on top, they are perfectly entitled to do so, and someone else is perfectly entitled to sell it to them and to make a profit while doing so. (Though it might be fair if all involved are equally as informed on what they're doing.)
It's possible to believe that, given that the seller and the buyer exist within a community, that it's a civilized rather than immoral imposition to believe that sellers should adequately label what it is they are selling and how much consitutes a serving as a fair and reasonable business practice (and it would be great to believe they could do this out of the goodness of their hearts, but let's also be practical enough about human nature to admit that good hearts can be blinded at times when profit motive is involved, so setting it as an ethical practice isn't really OMG! how uncapitalist of you! How dare you have expectations of a corporation profiting within a community to have any oblgation to the society within which it exists... other than how much money they can profit from it! What could possible go wrong? (I mean, other than things like the fairly unregulated financial meltdowns like 2008, but other than that...) By this sort of line of thought they could sell you cow-dung pie under the title 'brown deliciousness!' and consumers would have no right to know what the content of 'brown deliciousness' actually might be, because apparently consumers have sold all of rights to sellers the minute they choose to consume. Is that it..?)
Where's the middle ground? There are rights and obligations of the individual *and* the rights and obligations of the business community too...and there's the ability of any functioning civilization to negotiate reasonable ways to get along with one another such that there's room for both to exist without onerous exploitation. (And a grand tradition of it dating back more than 5000 years from the Hammurabi's code, to the ancient Egyptians, etc. It's almost always part of civilized society because anarchy and exploitation has a way of not working out for a lot of people...).
Why cannot there be a functioning middle ground, even in heated debate? Why must all arguments strive to stake out the most polarized position possible?
It does take a lot of energy, doesn't it? And then you wonder whether it was even worth it and whether your time could have been better spent arranging matches. :-)0 -
I have all the kitchen gadgets I will ever need.
No nutritious and tasty meal for a family of four (that my kids would eat too!) is quick enough for me to leave me with ample time for all of my other commitments and obligations.
Let's leave it here, OK?
If you cannot do it in a reasonable amount of time, then maybe you should consider cooking courses.
And you keep talking about how constrained on time you are, yet you have been here for...two hours now? Could have done quite a bit of meal prep in that time. Just sayin'.
To be fair, this is the poster who, a few days ago, insisted she has no time to set up recipes and count calories in MFP and is frustrated because she isn't losing weight. Also, she buys shoes without laces, as tying a lace can take up too much time and seconds count in a day.
Personally, I've found (and added to my recipes) a variety of recipes that take <20 minutes prep time, and I can do a variety of things while the cooking part occurs. Last time we ate out I became frustrated because I could have actually made the same food for less money. My DH (yes a man who cooks!) made a big pot of chili from hard-bean scratch on Friday. Most of the time the beans were soaking; his total prep time over 12 hours was about 30 minutes of labor, broken up throughout. We've frozen some and are eating the rest this week. Cheap? Yes indeed. Healthy? Yup! Good with every reheat? You betcha--almost better with every day of age, actually.
PS--I too love the idea of bringing my own Rubbermaid "to-go" container. Next time I eat out, I will have to plan ahead to do that!
Oh wow, I had no idea she had posted that before. She may want to seek therapy if she feels that tying her shoes is a time sink and that seconds are precious.0 -
I think that's a great thing to remember!They teach their children to eat until they are "80% full" and then stop eating.
Guys, the whole thing about being sad that we drive places, it's because America is huge and not so densely populated as Europe. That's not all necessarily a bad thing.
And my neighborhood doesn't have sidewalks because it's old and there is no room but it doesn't stop anybody from walking. I've never seen a newer subdivision without sidewalks. I think that point is irrelevant.
Believe it or not, but walking in a dry, empty, isolated suburb without sidewalks, heading nowhere, and walking just to be "good" and "dutiful" is a whole lot less attractive and enticing than strolling in a vibrant city with a sense of place where you end up exercising when you don't even mean to!
Result?
Most people would rather not walk under such austere conditions.
A few with sheer will - WILL. Most won't.
Next argument.
Speak for yourself...
Nope. I speak for all the people who are NOT in the burbs out walking everywhere at any time of the day.
Usually you see one or two isolated joggers at 10 minutes intervals one after the other.
If most people found such walking to be a joy, suburbs would be pulsing with human energy everywhere.
What I see in the burbs is CARS.
Next.0 -
....and don't sit on your bum all day. It's not rocket surgery!
OK, I won't sit on my bum all day - how in the world didn't I think of this before?
I will make sure to change my desk job for a gladiator one - I know those guys move a lot - and will travel back home from work by foot.
It must be addictive to think that you have all the power in the world to make all the changes you please when in reality you are nothing but an easy-to-squash ant.
Whatever gets us through the day, right?0 -
I think that's a great thing to remember!They teach their children to eat until they are "80% full" and then stop eating.
Guys, the whole thing about being sad that we drive places, it's because America is huge and not so densely populated as Europe. That's not all necessarily a bad thing.
And my neighborhood doesn't have sidewalks because it's old and there is no room but it doesn't stop anybody from walking. I've never seen a newer subdivision without sidewalks. I think that point is irrelevant.
Believe it or not, but walking in a dry, empty, isolated suburb without sidewalks, heading nowhere, and walking just to be "good" and "dutiful" is a whole lot less attractive and enticing than strolling in a vibrant city with a sense of place where you end up exercising when you don't even mean to!
Result?
Most people would rather not walk under such austere conditions.
A few with sheer will - WILL. Most won't.
Next argument.
Speak for yourself...
Nope. I speak for all the people who are NOT in the burbs out walking everywhere at any time of the day.
Usually you see one or two isolated joggers at 10 minutes intervals one after the other.
If most people found such walking to be a joy, suburbs would be pulsing with human energy everywhere.
What I see in the burbs is CARS.
Next.
So, what are we supposed to do about it? Find another way or move. Sorry, not seeing the tragedy. I live in a suburb. I walk and take the bus and train. My husband bikes. We have one car and it's about to break down. I've had to move 3 times in the past 6 years and each time, I try to choose a location that will work for me, knowing that I am going to be walking.
What are you trying to accomplish?
And how do you got off on passive aggressively insulting everyone by telling them how amazing and "God-like" and virtuous they are?
What exactly is your problem? And what solutions do you propose? And what is even your point? Are you even for real or is this just trolling?
Unbelievable.0 -
....and don't sit on your bum all day. It's not rocket surgery!
OK, I won't sit on my bum all day - how in the world didn't I think of this before?
I will make sure to change my desk job for a gladiator one - I know those guys move a lot - and will travel back home from work by foot.
It must be addictive to think that you have all the power in the world to make all the changes you please when in reality you are nothing but an easy-to-squash ant.
Whatever gets us through the day, right?
Oh please! I've had a desk job for 30+ years and I've never been obese. You are going to have to think of something better than that.0 -
No sidewalks does not equal austere! LOL!Believe it or not, but walking in a dry, empty, isolated suburb without sidewalks, heading nowhere, and walking just to be "good" and "dutiful" is a whole lot less attractive and enticing than strolling in a vibrant city with a sense of place where you end up exercising when you don't even mean to!
I walk by a lake with ducks and geese that is absolutely gorgeous when fall comes around! The neighborhood has been around for a while so some of the houses are lovely and the trees are huge. I have lived in a big city and a smaller suburb. They both have their good and bad points, believe me. I loved the city, I love the town. The town is way cheaper, though.
We also have approximately 16 mile loop of trail by the river, but you do have to drive their to walk it. And a mountain you can climb (more if you're willing to drive more than 10 or 15 minutes. It's all good.0 -
Most people's "personal will" is neither strong nor personal. It usually doesn't work!!!! This is why so many Americans are fat and this is why everyone who starts adopting American-like lifestyle will eventually get fat.
Geez. You can twist it all you want but you will still get to the same place.
IT IS CULTURE - and now we have to fight it to NOT get fat.
Good luck to all of us!
We will need lots of it because most will fail.
Threadwinner.0 -
I think that's a great thing to remember!They teach their children to eat until they are "80% full" and then stop eating.
Guys, the whole thing about being sad that we drive places, it's because America is huge and not so densely populated as Europe. That's not all necessarily a bad thing.
And my neighborhood doesn't have sidewalks because it's old and there is no room but it doesn't stop anybody from walking. I've never seen a newer subdivision without sidewalks. I think that point is irrelevant.
Believe it or not, but walking in a dry, empty, isolated suburb without sidewalks, heading nowhere, and walking just to be "good" and "dutiful" is a whole lot less attractive and enticing than strolling in a vibrant city with a sense of place where you end up exercising when you don't even mean to!
Result?
Most people would rather not walk under such austere conditions.
A few with sheer will - WILL. Most won't.
Next argument.
Speak for yourself...
Nope. I speak for all the people who are NOT in the burbs out walking everywhere at any time of the day.
Usually you see one or two isolated joggers at 10 minutes intervals one after the other.
If most people found such walking to be a joy, suburbs would be pulsing with human energy everywhere.
What I see in the burbs is CARS.
Next.
So, what are we supposed to do about it? Find another way or move. Sorry, not seeing the tragedy. I live in a suburb. I walk and take the bus and train. My husband bikes. We have one car and it's about to break down. I've had to move 3 times in the past 6 years and each time, I try to choose a location that will work for me, knowing that I am going to be walking.
What are you trying to accomplish?
And how do you got off on passive aggressively insulting everyone by telling them how amazing and "God-like" and virtuous they are?
What exactly is your problem? And what solutions do you propose? And what is even your point? Are you even for real or is this just trolling?
Unbelievable.
I am calling troll because the alternative is too scary.0 -
I think that's a great thing to remember!They teach their children to eat until they are "80% full" and then stop eating.
Guys, the whole thing about being sad that we drive places, it's because America is huge and not so densely populated as Europe. That's not all necessarily a bad thing.
And my neighborhood doesn't have sidewalks because it's old and there is no room but it doesn't stop anybody from walking. I've never seen a newer subdivision without sidewalks. I think that point is irrelevant.
Believe it or not, but walking in a dry, empty, isolated suburb without sidewalks, heading nowhere, and walking just to be "good" and "dutiful" is a whole lot less attractive and enticing than strolling in a vibrant city with a sense of place where you end up exercising when you don't even mean to!
Result?
Most people would rather not walk under such austere conditions.
A few with sheer will - WILL. Most won't.
Next argument.
Speak for yourself...
Nope. I speak for all the people who are NOT in the burbs out walking everywhere at any time of the day.
Usually you see one or two isolated joggers at 10 minutes intervals one after the other.
If most people found such walking to be a joy, suburbs would be pulsing with human energy everywhere.
What I see in the burbs is CARS.
Next.
You don't live in my suburb thank you... besides that fact, people in my area are in their yards working and playing all the freaking time... well, when it's not 100+ degrees... so keep it up... I would rather live in my car filled burb's than in close quarters with seemingly angry and self-righteous people always in a hurry... Besides, most "burbs" I have lived in have bikepaths, sidewalks, and "le gasp" busses... thus not always needing cars. I would rather have my trees and squirrels and composting and vegetable gardens and butterflies and closer to nature... but then, I'm fortunate to live in an area where the trees are older than the house and the lots are big.0 -
So, what are we supposed to do about it? Find another way or move. Sorry, not seeing the tragedy. I live in a suburb. I walk and take the bus and train. My husband bikes. We have one car and it's about to break down. I've had to move 3 times in the past 6 years and each time, I try to choose a location that will work for me, knowing that I am going to be walking.
What are you trying to accomplish?
And how do you got off on passive aggressively insulting everyone by telling them how amazing and "God-like" and virtuous they are?
What exactly is your problem? And what solutions do you propose? And what is even your point? Are you even for real or is this just trolling?
Unbelievable.
I am calling troll because the alternative is too scary.
I'm starting to believe the same...0 -
....and don't sit on your bum all day. It's not rocket surgery!
OK, I won't sit on my bum all day - how in the world didn't I think of this before?
I will make sure to change my desk job for a gladiator one - I know those guys move a lot - and will travel back home from work by foot.
It must be addictive to think that you have all the power in the world to make all the changes you please when in reality you are nothing but an easy-to-squash ant.
Whatever gets us through the day, right?
Oh geez... your exuses are as deep as they are wide....0 -
And how do you got off on passive aggressively insulting everyone by telling them how amazing and "God-like" and virtuous they are?
Oh. You mean she was not serious? I thought someone else finally saw how amazing and God-like I am.0 -
BTW, thanks bcattoes for reminding me to get out of my chair while at work... I want to be more "God-like" and burn a few extra calories at my sedentary desk job...0
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I expected a bit of drama in here but I didn't expect it to be popcorn worthy.
...
...
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I expected a bit of drama in here but I didn't expect it to be popcorn worthy.
...
...
I really did not expect this at all.0 -
I love how people still associate "pizza" and "chinese" and "eating out" with being fat. I got fat eating most of my meals at home. I've lost 60 pounds eating out quite often since then (and stay within my macros for the most part). Let's continue to blame pizza and chinese.
Pizza....
MMMMMmmmmmmm
Also to note; I've not read the whole thread yet so maybe regurgitating other comments.0 -
Haha, that was me and cheese. I didn't eat out a lot, but I sure enjoyed the most calorie-dense things from the grocery store, lol.I love how people still associate "pizza" and "chinese" and "eating out" with being fat. I got fat eating most of my meals at home. I've lost 60 pounds eating out quite often since then (and stay within my macros for the most part). Let's continue to blame pizza and chinese.
Pizza....
MMMMMmmmmmmm
Also to note; I've not read the whole thread yet so maybe regurgitating other comments.0 -
It is uncanny just how often BinaryPulsar happens to say what I am thinking.
I think that's a great thing to remember!They teach their children to eat until they are "80% full" and then stop eating.
Guys, the whole thing about being sad that we drive places, it's because America is huge and not so densely populated as Europe. That's not all necessarily a bad thing.
And my neighborhood doesn't have sidewalks because it's old and there is no room but it doesn't stop anybody from walking. I've never seen a newer subdivision without sidewalks. I think that point is irrelevant.
Believe it or not, but walking in a dry, empty, isolated suburb without sidewalks, heading nowhere, and walking just to be "good" and "dutiful" is a whole lot less attractive and enticing than strolling in a vibrant city with a sense of place where you end up exercising when you don't even mean to!
Result?
Most people would rather not walk under such austere conditions.
A few with sheer will - WILL. Most won't.
Next argument.
Speak for yourself...
Nope. I speak for all the people who are NOT in the burbs out walking everywhere at any time of the day.
Usually you see one or two isolated joggers at 10 minutes intervals one after the other.
If most people found such walking to be a joy, suburbs would be pulsing with human energy everywhere.
What I see in the burbs is CARS.
Next.
So, what are we supposed to do about it? Find another way or move. Sorry, not seeing the tragedy. I live in a suburb. I walk and take the bus and train. My husband bikes. We have one car and it's about to break down. I've had to move 3 times in the past 6 years and each time, I try to choose a location that will work for me, knowing that I am going to be walking.
What are you trying to accomplish?
And how do you got off on passive aggressively insulting everyone by telling them how amazing and "God-like" and virtuous they are?
What exactly is your problem? And what solutions do you propose? And what is even your point? Are you even for real or is this just trolling?
Unbelievable.0
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