Muscle gaing
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vyomorion
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What is the best way to gain a lot of muscle while being fat?
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Lift heavy things and put them down.11
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Usually best to get rid of the fat and then build the muscle.0
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sollyn23l2 wrote: »Lift heavy things and put them down.
And then do it again and again and again. Then - "a gain." Be sure to get enough rest days too.
A fat person with a lot of muscle will still be fat. If that's the goal, then success awaits. If the goal is also to lose fat, there's other approaches.3 -
What they said, but you'll also want to get adequate protein in your diet, and ideally overall good nutrition beyond just protein.6
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Your muscles develop because you use them.
Your energy balance and nutrients and general health either help or hinder the process.
In general the more energy and building blocks you provide the more likely you are to achieve maximum gains.
Your body is also more into pumping hormones when excess energy is present
That said, an over fat person already has easy to use energy reserves and in the presence of sufficient need (i.e. muscles needing to develop because you use them) the over fat body will gladly pull from its internal energy reserves.
This is less true of an already lean body.
The end goals, however, are definitely relevant as it does not always pay to ignore the alternatives
The development of a sumo wrestler or a shot putter or hammer thrower is probably different than the run of the mill "good for health" choices most of us should probably make
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I think there's some conflating going on.
OP has >100 pounds to lose. My typical rec for someone in that situation is focus on fat loss first. Yes, lift, but do so with the intention to maintain what you already have while doing large weight loss. That doesn't require a lot of volume. Maybe the person gets lucky with some noob muscle gains. But the focus should be fat loss, with a significant and sustainable calorie deficit. Keep protein high during this phase, close to 1g per pound of ideal bw.
Cardio per hour burns more calories than lifting per hour, and frequent lifting with progressive overload, or HIIT cardio, can lead to systemic fatigue which will limit total exercise time. Given that someone with >100 pounds to lose likely has finite time and energy, imo better to focus on the cardio for now, especially zone 2 cardio, with lifting as the #2 priority. At least lift enough to maintain, and to get into the habit. With this much fat to lose, don't make muscle gain your focus, unless you want to compete in Strongman events.
Once body fat gets lower and the person is no longer obese, that's when the conversation should start shifting to building muscle imo. At that time, shift the ratio of exercise more towards lifting if your goals include muscle building.2 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »tomcustombuilder wrote: »Usually best to get rid of the fat and then build the muscle.
Disagree. Why wait to lift weights and build muscle for a year + while losing fat?
Thank you for this @Theoldguy1 I was just fixin to say that.
I began lifting while losing, obese, and still lift now, at goal and in maintenance.
I don’t lift particularly heavy weights. I started older and had never exercised before, but I’ve gotten good results. I’m not saying do five pound weights. If that’s where you need to start, fine. I did and built up. It’s the resistance that will tone and strengthen you. When those five pounds are no longer a challenge, you’ll reap very little benefit continuing to lift them. You’ll need to level up.
At my old gym, which was an Olympic style gym, we had some larger women who did lift very heavy. They could do some enormous weights and were very muscular. I’d hesitate to call them “fat”. That was the look they liked and they doubled down on it. They could sure as hell do stuff I couldn’t, so bully for them.
It depends on the look you wish to achieve, but getting started in the first place is the key thing.
If you want to lose weight faster, muscle burns weight faster than fat. I feel like starting to lift early in my weight loss journey was a smart move, since I feel like it helped me lose faster, smarter, and see results along the way.
I do a cardio weight class at my gym twice a week, and some of the ladies there have earned very respectable results, using weights in the 5-12 pound range. I typically use 12-25 pounds or higher, depending on the exercise, but I come directly to the class from the weight room so am pretty warmed up by then.
Whatever you’re thinking, just get off your bum and do something. I started by simply walking and doing basic yoga classes. If you’d ever told me, obese, sedentary, and 56, that I’d enjoy lifting in the gym, I’d have laughed in your face. It’s the simple thrill of moving stuff and, once in a while, being able to lift more than the last time.1 -
lifting is a given during fat loss however trying to add muscle is generally left till later with muscle maintenance being the goal during fat loss.Theoldguy1 wrote: »tomcustombuilder wrote: »Usually best to get rid of the fat and then build the muscle.
Disagree. Why wait to lift weights and build muscle for a year + while losing fat?
Trying to add muscle simultaneously usually backfires with little to no muscle gain and sub par fatloss
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tomcustombuilder wrote: »
lifting is a given during fat loss however trying to add muscle is generally left till later with muscle maintenance being the goal during fat loss.Theoldguy1 wrote: »tomcustombuilder wrote: »Usually best to get rid of the fat and then build the muscle.
Disagree. Why wait to lift weights and build muscle for a year + while losing fat?
Trying to add muscle simultaneously usually backfires with little to no muscle gain and sub par fatloss
Passionately disagree.
Of course, I was starting from a literal zero. As I suspect OP is, too.
I built a lot of muscle during the obese to normal BMI trip - and then lost it by having too low a goal.
You’re not going to lose weight and still have static muscle if you’re working to build it during the downward process, and have a reasonable end goal in sight.3 -
I don't know what you mean there. Can you clarify?springlering62 wrote: »You’re not going to lose weight and still have static muscle if you’re working to build it during the downward process, and have a reasonable end goal in sight.
It's best to focus on one priority at a time. With 100+ pounds to lose, that priority should be fat loss. That will be best for overall health too. If the priority is building muscle that potentially means 3-5 lifting workouts, working hard, optimal nutrition, calorie surplus or at worst a small deficit, and all of that leaves little time and energy for additional cardio exercise, plus the journey to lose 100 pounds will be loooooong.
Again, nobody is saying don't lift. There's a fundamental difference between building muscle and maintaining. The former requires 10-20 working sets per muscle group per week. Maintenance, 3-5 working sets is probably enough. That can mean 1-2 lifting workouts per week, instead of 3-5. Prioritizing fat loss means more time for cardio, and dieting for more fat loss, getting to a better health position sooner.1 -
I worked out while I was obese and in bad shape. When you start at that level, you can build some muscle even if eating it a deficit, but I stacked my deck by eating protein every couple of hours. Am I a bodybuilder like I used to be years ago? Not at all. But by the time I had lost a lot of weight, I was able to lift heavier than I had been able to when I started, and you can actually see some muscle development. Carrying a case of my favorite fizzy water in glass bottles used to take all of my strength, now it's no problem.2
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Retroguy2000 wrote: »
I don't know what you mean there. Can you clarify?springlering62 wrote: »You’re not going to lose weight and still have static muscle if you’re working to build it during the downward process, and have a reasonable end goal in sight.
It's best to focus on one priority at a time. With 100+ pounds to lose, that priority should be fat loss. That will be best for overall health too. If the priority is building muscle that potentially means 3-5 lifting workouts, working hard, optimal nutrition, calorie surplus or at worst a small deficit, and all of that leaves little time and energy for additional cardio exercise, plus the journey to lose 100 pounds will be loooooong.
Again, nobody is saying don't lift. There's a fundamental difference between building muscle and maintaining. The former requires 10-20 working sets per muscle group per week. Maintenance, 3-5 working sets is probably enough. That can mean 1-2 lifting workouts per week, instead of 3-5. Prioritizing fat loss means more time for cardio, and dieting for more fat loss, getting to a better health position sooner.
Sorry. Didn’t explain that well.
If you’re starting from zero, as I did, you can’t help but gain muscle. I lost weight and built muscle at the same time.
There’s no reason for them to be mutually exclusive, if done thoughtfully and with great instruction.
I did a combination of cardio (running, walking, stationery bike, treadmill) and strength (weights, power yoga, Pilates).
I sincerely believe adding the weights in as early as I did pushed me along a lot faster. I saw results in my body sooner ( begging permission to use the dreaded “toning” word here), thanks to the weights, which helped me achieve yoga goals I badly wanted, which elated me and created even more goals.
I think focusing on one thing at a time is doing yourself a total disservice- but you’ve got to be willing to apply yourself to both.
If you’re willing to put in the work logging, changing your dietary habits, and commit to exercising, too, I’d absolutely recommend starting weights as early as possible.4 -
Not necessarily. Much depends on the training programTheoldguy1 wrote: »tomcustombuilder wrote: »
lifting is a given during fat loss however trying to add muscle is generally left till later with muscle maintenance being the goal during fat loss.Theoldguy1 wrote: »tomcustombuilder wrote: »Usually best to get rid of the fat and then build the muscle.
Disagree. Why wait to lift weights and build muscle for a year + while losing fat?
Trying to add muscle simultaneously usually backfires with little to no muscle gain and sub par fatloss
If the OP has 100 pounds to lose, I can pretty much bet they have not done any lifting. They will gain muscle from the lifting they start doing.
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lol, I see people, usually the highly overweight ones come in, go to a machine, pump out A few light reps, get up, walk around and leave. Building muscle, even a little, requires a decent amount of effort and just “going to the gym” is no guarantee of building anything.Theoldguy1 wrote: »tomcustombuilder wrote: »
Not necessarily. Much depends on the training programTheoldguy1 wrote: »tomcustombuilder wrote: »
lifting is a given during fat loss however trying to add muscle is generally left till later with muscle maintenance being the goal during fat loss.Theoldguy1 wrote: »tomcustombuilder wrote: »Usually best to get rid of the fat and then build the muscle.
Disagree. Why wait to lift weights and build muscle for a year + while losing fat?
Trying to add muscle simultaneously usually backfires with little to no muscle gain and sub par fatloss
If the OP has 100 pounds to lose, I can pretty much bet they have not done any lifting. They will gain muscle from the lifting they start doing.
Of course training program matters but if going from nothing to even a bit will help.
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tomcustombuilder wrote: »
lol, I see people, usually the highly overweight ones come in, go to a machine, pump out A few light reps, get up, walk around and leave. Building muscle, even a little, requires a decent amount of effort and just “going to the gym” is no guarantee of building anything.Theoldguy1 wrote: »tomcustombuilder wrote: »
Not necessarily. Much depends on the training programTheoldguy1 wrote: »tomcustombuilder wrote: »
lifting is a given during fat loss however trying to add muscle is generally left till later with muscle maintenance being the goal during fat loss.Theoldguy1 wrote: »tomcustombuilder wrote: »Usually best to get rid of the fat and then build the muscle.
Disagree. Why wait to lift weights and build muscle for a year + while losing fat?
Trying to add muscle simultaneously usually backfires with little to no muscle gain and sub par fatloss
If the OP has 100 pounds to lose, I can pretty much bet they have not done any lifting. They will gain muscle from the lifting they start doing.
Of course training program matters but if going from nothing to even a bit will help.
Nah, I've seen plenty of skinny guys do that too. And guys that are blasting test assuming that'll make them get thick. Basically all groups do it.2 -
I typically have my obese people lift with the intention of strength gain, and trying to keep muscle up.
Realistically, many obese people have muscle because they have to carry that weight especially on their legs.
I stick to basic lifts and usually 3-4 sets with normally doing a 15, 12, 10 rep progressing in weight each time we lower reps.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 35+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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yep you’re right, hence the reason people just give up with no real success. You gotta want it when it comes to building muscle.sollyn23l2 wrote: »tomcustombuilder wrote: »
lol, I see people, usually the highly overweight ones come in, go to a machine, pump out A few light reps, get up, walk around and leave. Building muscle, even a little, requires a decent amount of effort and just “going to the gym” is no guarantee of building anything.Theoldguy1 wrote: »tomcustombuilder wrote: »
Not necessarily. Much depends on the training programTheoldguy1 wrote: »tomcustombuilder wrote: »
lifting is a given during fat loss however trying to add muscle is generally left till later with muscle maintenance being the goal during fat loss.Theoldguy1 wrote: »tomcustombuilder wrote: »Usually best to get rid of the fat and then build the muscle.
Disagree. Why wait to lift weights and build muscle for a year + while losing fat?
Trying to add muscle simultaneously usually backfires with little to no muscle gain and sub par fatloss
If the OP has 100 pounds to lose, I can pretty much bet they have not done any lifting. They will gain muscle from the lifting they start doing.
Of course training program matters but if going from nothing to even a bit will help.
Nah, I've seen plenty of skinny guys do that too. And guys that are blasting test assuming that'll make them get thick. Basically all groups do it.
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Where's my popcorn to keep watching this debate that's not really a debate since both sides are saying almost the same thing? 🍿8
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lol, I see people, usually the highly overweight ones come in, go to a machine, pump out A few light reps, get up, walk around and leave. Building muscle, even a little, requires a decent amount of effort and just “going to the gym” is no guarantee of building anything.Nah, I've seen plenty of skinny guys do that too. And guys that are blasting test assuming that'll make them get thick. Basically all groups do it.yep you’re right, hence the reason people just give up with no real success. You gotta want it when it comes to building muscle.
Some people say they avoid the gym because they worry that fitter people there will judge them. I usually tell them that gym people are too busy with their own workout to be judge-y that way.
Maybe I should stop claiming that.
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lol, I see people, usually the highly overweight ones come in, go to a machine, pump out A few light reps, get up, walk around and leave. Building muscle, even a little, requires a decent amount of effort and just “going to the gym” is no guarantee of building anything.Nah, I've seen plenty of skinny guys do that too. And guys that are blasting test assuming that'll make them get thick. Basically all groups do it.yep you’re right, hence the reason people just give up with no real success. You gotta want it when it comes to building muscle.
Some people say they avoid the gym because they worry that fitter people there will judge them. I usually tell them that gym people are too busy with their own workout to be judge-y that way.
Maybe I should stop claiming that.
I wasn't judging anybody. I clearly said everybody messes up equally badly at the gym, meaning we all do. Yup. Even me. I suck at the gym. I feel very attacked and judged right now.3 -
sollyn23l2 wrote: »lol, I see people, usually the highly overweight ones come in, go to a machine, pump out A few light reps, get up, walk around and leave. Building muscle, even a little, requires a decent amount of effort and just “going to the gym” is no guarantee of building anything.Nah, I've seen plenty of skinny guys do that too. And guys that are blasting test assuming that'll make them get thick. Basically all groups do it.yep you’re right, hence the reason people just give up with no real success. You gotta want it when it comes to building muscle.
Some people say they avoid the gym because they worry that fitter people there will judge them. I usually tell them that gym people are too busy with their own workout to be judge-y that way.
Maybe I should stop claiming that.
I wasn't judging anybody. I clearly said everybody messes up equally badly at the gym, meaning we all do. Yup. Even me. I suck at the gym. I feel very attacked and judged right now.
Yes you do. You suck at the gym. And I am not judging at all, simply validating your words.
But.... yeah I agree. Most of us suck at the gym at least sometimes, so if the judgement of/by others doesn't apply, don't let it get you down.0 -
Where's my popcorn to keep watching this debate that's not really a debate since both sides are saying almost the same thing? 🍿
Popcorn in excess levels might cause a calorie surplus and result in gains, I heard that on the internet. But only for those that work extra hard in the gym, because I heard newbie gains aren't a thing.
Jokes aside, it seems to be a semantics debate. Being we have no idea of the total deficit of the OP, the gym routine, past history, etc.... nobody knows if they can or will make gains or not.
But we DO know that regardless, a lifting program should at a minimum keep any losses down, and possibly result in gains. Rather than have arguments over which is correct, maybe we should just be making the point that there is little lose but time in adding lifting while still in a calorie deficit.3 -
To put it simply.
The optimal way to lose 100 pounds is a large calorie deficit. Say 1-2 pounds per week.
The optimal way to build muscle is a calorie surplus.
Nobody is saying you can't get some of the benefits of both at the same time, but if you think you can get all the benefits of both at the same time, then I have a bridge to sell you.1 -
Retroguy2000 wrote: »To put it simply.
The optimal way to lose 100 pounds is a large calorie deficit. Say 1-2 pounds per week.
The optimal way to build muscle is a calorie surplus.
Nobody is saying you can't get some of the benefits of both at the same time, but if you think you can get all the benefits of both at the same time, then I have a bridge to sell you.
I did both. I guess I’m buying that bridge. Maybe I’ll charge ya tolls.
I think y'all are thinking in terms of big buff showy bulging muscle gain.
Maybe we ought to start by asking these OPs what they envision as “muscle”.
I didn’t then, don’t now, nor do I ever particularly want bulgy. “Shapely” limbs are just fine by me, although I think I can bust out a pretty decent flex.3 -
Either you're a unicorn that defies physiological science, in which case you shouldn't be presenting that as a good path for OP, or...springlering62 wrote: »I did both. I guess I’m buying that bridge. Maybe I’ll charge ya tolls.
I think y'all are thinking in terms of big buff showy bulging muscle gain.
Maybe we ought to start by asking these OPs what they envision as “muscle”.
I didn’t then, don’t now, nor do I ever particularly want bulgy. “Shapely” limbs are just fine by me, although I think I can bust out a pretty decent flex.
You didn't build as much muscle as you could have, had you been in a calorie surplus instead, and it sounds like you concede that to be true.2 -
@retroguy2000 is saying to lift while losing weight, just don't make it your focus.
@springlering62 is saying to lift while losing weight, don't wait.
Am I the only person who fails to see what the argument is about? Each is behaving as if the other is completely negating what the other is saying, when I read both of them saying "lift while you lose weight."
Who cares about how much muscle is actually gained versus simply retained but becomes more visible due to less fat hiding it? Net result in either case is the person loses fat without losing muscle, is overall healthier and probably stronger (either from gaining muscle, improving mind-muscle connection, or simply having less bodyweight to sling around).
Now, if an OP asks about "how can I turn this 100 lbs of fat into Arnold Schwarzenegger?" that would be a different discussion. But that's not what I'm seeing here, so why are we trying to make this out to be that type of argument?6 -
His response to me on another forum when I told him he wouldn't be successful without patience after several other posters tried to help him out but he just wanted to argue. It was followed up with a highly profane DM which I won't repeat.
(Originally Posted by Tommy W. View Post)
"Prepare to spin your wheels and make zero progress"
What do you mean Prepare to spin your wheels and make zero progress dude i give you the whole time as much information i can and you give me a lazy answer i don't even know the meaning of it
if you don't wanna help me or don't know how to help me then keep your mouth shut damn it.
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Bodybuilders call their cycles bulking and cutting, i.e. the gaining of muscle, and the shedding of fat. They don't call their cycles "adding muscle" and "adding the same amount of muscle while losing fat". If the latter were a thing, the former would be pointless.Theoldguy1 wrote: »There is 100 pounds worth of calorie surplus available. Why is that difficult to understand?
Now the person should adjust intake to lose weight as well as increase calories burned. The most efficient time-benefit wise to burn calories is aerobic exercise. However, the person should also do resistance work and if they have the time can do extensive resistance work and sure build muscle are they are losing the weight.0 -
The overwhelming answer for the overwhelming number of people who are starting with 100+lbs available to lose and are not in their 20s or and/or on steroids is zero muscle building if you also don't lose some weight.
Because they are not in good enough physical condition right now before they've started losing the weight to actually hit the gym effectively.
I sure as crap wasn't. Because had I been I probably would NOT have had 100+lbs available to lose
So the original question is either a very edge case or barking up the wrong goal for your current circumstances tree.
The physiological answer is that it is an energy availability question.
The 100lbs of available fat provides favourable conditions of energy availability to be used for muscle building.
10lbs of available fat doesn't.
Yes, until the over abundance of fat reserves reduces and in the absence of an insane deficit and under the constraint of the person's ability to exercise there is no reason to wait or dither or to be trying to optimize the results before any effort has gone toward obtaining them.
Create a 20% deficit and hit the gym with a good program, good supervision, and good form. Call in again after a few months to discuss further optimization
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after the first year of the pandemic, my legs were too weak for me to get off a chair without using my arms to push up. i had been riding my exercise bike at low resistance to work around injuries, and when i stopped going anywhere, i discovered walking had been my main weight-bearing (baring?) exercise.
i lost 20 pounds in that year and during that same year i put enough muscle to get out of chairs, exercise by walking up and down stairs, and started using a treadmill at a 5% incline, none of which i could do a year before. i focus on protein first, and i eat small "meals" every 2 to 2 1/2 hours. i'm now eating at maintenance, and i continue to put on muscle - it's visible now. am i bulging with muscle? nope. but i'm much stronger and more able, and most of that was eating at a deficit.
i'm not a doctor or a dietician, but my suggestion to the OP or anyone with this question - do start working out now. don't work out a your max capacity if you're eating at a deficit - make your workouts strenuous and intense but don't work out heavier than you can do 8 controlled reps at. because when eating at a deficit, you probably won't have the ability to recover as well. do eat enough protein. if possible, find a couple protein snacks that fit in your calorie budget.3
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