All calories are not the same
Replies
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Okay. So meat may be eaten raw, but even if it is cooked, it is considered a whole food? But if wheat is soaked and ground, then it is no longer a "whole food"?
Is the problem the food or is the problem the arbitrary concept of "whole food"?
when considering what is minimal processing of a food, its important to distinguish plant vs meat.
eventually you end up with a food product and not a food
I'd wager that apple is to wheat as chicken is to pepperoni, get it?0 -
Or are you suggesting that wheat isn't meant to be eaten at all?
I'm not, although there are many medical doctors making this suggestion, I'm not going there.
I was suggesting that its not necessarily a whole food since its a plant that you can't pick and eat.
in other words, bread is a processed food.
I'm aware bread is a processed food. I was talking about flour, which is a component of bread.
Wheat has to be picked, hulled, and milled to be made into flour which can be cooked and eaten. Chickens have to be cooked, bled, plucked, and cleaned of innards, which can then be cooked and eaten. You're not making a very convincing argument for why one is a 'whole food' and the other is not. Both are processed as minimally as they can be and still be edible.
Of course, I think you're arguing just for the sake of arguing, so I suppose that makes me the fool for helping to entertain you.0 -
Then perhaps what you learned in "Nutrition 101, chapter 1' was incorrect? But again, what is the significance of this concept? Does it have any relevance to human health?
does it?
thats why I brought it up
And, I'm asking why this concept has significance for you.0 -
actually no, you're thinking that I define whole food for us but I don't.
nutritionists and dietiticians do that
if you consider this an argument rather than a discussion, then I'll no longer address you lol0 -
This again relies entirely on context. You get ZERO benefit from exceeding your micronutritient needs. So if one has already met their micronutrient needs, then eating 250 calories of any food is going to be the same, unless one of those foods contains some ingredient which manages to actively destroy other nutrients inside the body.The argument isn't about the number of calories, it's about the nutritional value of those calories. Yes, 250 calories is 250 calories, but you may not be getting quite as much that benefits you from a slice of pizza as you probably would from chicken with quinoa and spinach.
It's the same concept as this: You need to cut your lawn. You COULD go out there and clip each blade individually with nail clippers or you could use a lawnmower. Sure, the job gets done either way, the BIG picture is fine. But when you look at it closely, which one sounds like the better option? They're not equal, despite accomplishing the same task (ie, being 250 calories.)
That said, that doesn't mean that you can't spend your calories however the hell you want to. Just don't lie to yourself and think you're getting the same nutritional value out of 250 calories of marshmallow Fluff as you would out of 250 calories of protein, grains and vegetables.0 -
Okay. So meat may be eaten raw, but even if it is cooked, it is considered a whole food? But if wheat is soaked and ground, then it is no longer a "whole food"?
Is the problem the food or is the problem the arbitrary concept of "whole food"?
when considering what is minimal processing of a food, its important to distinguish plant vs meat.
eventually you end up with a food product and not a food
I'd wager that apple is to wheat as chicken is to pepperoni, get it?
This is starting to sound more like a semantic game than science.0 -
The Calorie content is the same of course, but the fat content and how the body metabolizes the calories are both very different....Its the same theory that a lb of fat weighs the same as a lb of muscle.
Of course a slice of pizza is going to metabolize very quickly and when I say metabolize I mean, the food is going to turn to glucose and go straight to fat storage...Its the same concept of putting cheap gas into your car, you get the same purpose but you also get a low grade of crap with fillers and things that slow your engine down and pollute your ride.....
Take a look at a HUGE salad with 4 or 5 servings of slow burning carbs and 5 ounces of a protein like chicken or turkey, you get a huge amount of food, vs a single slice of pizza....if you are wanting volume, then the salad is the way to go, same calorie value, but its worth is much much more and what your body does with its nutritional content is again, much different. There are thin people who eat CRAP and have horrible cholesterol and high blood pressure because the food they eat has little to no nutritional value, but they may eat the same number of calories as the next woman who eats a higher volume of good nutritional foods like veggies and low fat protein. I guess it all boils down to nutritional knowledge and balance.0 -
actually no, you're thinking that I define whole food for us but I don't.
nutritionists and dietiticians do that
if you consider this an argument rather than a discussion, then I'll no longer address you lol
I didn't say you defined anything. I'm saying you're mislabeling things without any logical backup.
ETA: Oh, yeah... 'lol'0 -
Okay. So meat may be eaten raw, but even if it is cooked, it is considered a whole food? But if wheat is soaked and ground, then it is no longer a "whole food"?
Is the problem the food or is the problem the arbitrary concept of "whole food"?
when considering what is minimal processing of a food, its important to distinguish plant vs meat.
eventually you end up with a food product and not a food
I'd wager that apple is to wheat as chicken is to pepperoni, get it?
I don't agree with the analogy. I'd say apple is to wheat what chicken is to carpacchio. Wheat is just dried and ground. Pepperoni is salted, cured, mixed with spices, and stuffed into casing.
I think its just a case of hating wheat being trendy right now. Unless you have an allergy to wheat, it is in no way bad to eat.
eta: and pepperoni isn't bad for you either unless it is all you eat.0 -
I think this thread is a troll, so that people can get annoyed, say something wrong and get tattled on by the OP and other posters.0
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Next thing you know, people are going to start claiming that pie isn't really pie, but I'll eat the hell out of some pie.
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actually no, you're thinking that I define whole food for us but I don't.
nutritionists and dietiticians do that
if you consider this an argument rather than a discussion, then I'll no longer address you lol
Hum. I guess that depends on how you define "argument."
1. an exchange of diverging or opposite views, typically a heated or angry one.
2. a reason or set of reasons given with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea is right or wrong.
ETA: I do enjoy the "i don't like these questions that you're asking me so I'm going to take my toys and go home" threat though.0 -
Before I had my youngest I lost 75 pounds eating a 1600-1800 calorie diet. Guess what I ate? Pizza. Cookies. Cake. Candy. Whatever I wanted, I just watched the calories. I still lost 75 pounds. Very quickly. There's no doubt in my mind that I would of felt better had I ate foods that were nutritious and good for me, but I opted for food that I love instead. Still lost weight. Just saying.0
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An mile is a mile. Doesn't matter if you walked, ran, biked, or drove, you traveled a mile.
A pound is a pound. Doesn't matter if it's feathers, iron, fat, or muscle.
A gallon is a gallon. Milk, water, beer, petrol … it's still a gallon.
And yes, a calorie is a calorie. "Calorie" is a unit of measurement, just like mile, pound, and gallon. Calories measure energy.
As far as energy is concerned, the body doesn't care if it's from vegetables or twinkies. A surplus of energy means that it must be stored somehow - the body stores it as fat, generally. A deficit of energy means the body must pull it from something else, because energy must come from somewhere. It's thermodynamics -- it's physics.
Of course, there are other issues involved. If you drive a mile, you'll probably get there faster than if you walk. A pound of muscle takes up less space than a pound of fat. And you'd better hope that was milk you drank, and petrol you put in your car and not the other way around :laugh:. You will be healthier overall if most of your calories come from sources that also give you a good balance of nutrients. But you won't lose weight faster on a 1500 calorie diet of vegetables and protein than on a 1500 calorie diet of pizza and chocolate. (And of course, you don't have to chose between the extremes, you can eat 1500 calories of mostly nutrient dense food with a slice of pizza or a piece of chocolate worked in from time to time).0 -
I don't agree with the analogy. I'd say apple is to wheat what chicken is to carpacchio. Wheat is just dried and ground. Pepperoni is salted, cured, mixed with spices, and stuffed into casing.
I think its just a case of hating wheat being trendy right now. Unless you have an allergy to wheat, it is in no way bad to eat.
eta: and pepperoni isn't bad for you either unless it is all you eat.
high intake of processed meat is linked to cancer
and again, you're still not considering plants and meat separately, and you should0 -
I don't agree with the analogy. I'd say apple is to wheat what chicken is to carpacchio. Wheat is just dried and ground. Pepperoni is salted, cured, mixed with spices, and stuffed into casing.
I think its just a case of hating wheat being trendy right now. Unless you have an allergy to wheat, it is in no way bad to eat.
eta: and pepperoni isn't bad for you either unless it is all you eat.
high intake of processed meat is linked to cancer
source?
edit after your edit: I don't usually consider meat because I'm a vegetarian...I just don't agree with your analogy from the perspective of degrees of 'processing'0 -
high intake of processed meat is linked to cancer
source?
here's a few, please follow the links for more data
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7015/11/63
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/7805530 -
Adherence and sustainabilty are key, IMHO. Like you, I was/am successful eating the foods I like (in moderation). I have lost 120lbs in 14 months and have not given up anything. There is no need to overcomplicate everything. If a person feels they can only have 250 calories of chicken breast and then feel deprived and end up eating 5,000 calories worth of pizza instead, it won't matter anymore that the chicken breast might have been a better choice.Before I had my youngest I lost 75 pounds eating a 1600-1800 calorie diet. Guess what I ate? Pizza. Cookies. Cake. Candy. Whatever I wanted, I just watched the calories. I still lost 75 pounds. Very quickly. There's no doubt in my mind that I would of felt better had I ate foods that were nutritious and good for me, but I opted for food that I love instead. Still lost weight. Just saying.0 -
source?
edit after your edit: I don't usually consider meat because I'm a vegetarian...I just don't agree with your analogy from the perspective of degrees of 'processing'
you're allowed to disagree haha, I ain't even mad0 -
high intake of processed meat is linked to cancer
source?
here's a few, please follow the links for more data
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7015/11/63
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/780553
from those studies:
hese results indicate that the decreased mortality in vegetarians compared with the general population is in large part due to a healthy lifestyle, that is, being non-smokers, being leaner and more physically active, and so on.
I think the definition of 'whole food' is completely arbitrary, as Beach said. If you eat high calorie, high salt food, smoke, and sit on the couch all day, you have a lower quality of life than someone who eats a balanced diet, exercises, and takes care of themselves. Obviously.
Oddly, many people on this site seem to randomly decide if something is 'processed' or not based on current diet trends. Ground wheat has seen far less processing than ground beef, yet it is somehow demonized. I just don't get it.0 -
Math isn't your best subject then. A calorie is a measured value of energy. Source doesn't matter if the both have the same calorie count.This is an argument I have quite often with people.
All calories are not the same. 250 calories from a slice of pizza is not the same as 250 calories from a meal consisting of grilled chicken breast, a side of quinoa and fresh raw spinach.
If you agree or disagree, please post in the in the comment section below
You're trying to debate macronutrient content and nutritional content.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
high intake of processed meat is linked to cancer
source?
here's a few, please follow the links for more data
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7015/11/63
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/780553
from those studies:
hese results indicate that the decreased mortality in vegetarians compared with the general population is in large part due to a healthy lifestyle, that is, being non-smokers, being leaner and more physically active, and so on.
of all things to cherry pick, you grabbed that?0 -
Nutrition books are written as propaganda by shills for Big Nutrition, who perpetuates lies that we need them to know what to eat, because otherwise nobody would have any use for them and they'd have to go get real jobs. It's a conspiracy to keep you misinformed so they can take your money.
You're missing how arbitrary your concept actually is.
this is a concept learned in Nutrition 101, chapter 10 -
high intake of processed meat is linked to cancer
source?
here's a few, please follow the links for more data
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7015/11/63
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/780553
from those studies:
hese results indicate that the decreased mortality in vegetarians compared with the general population is in large part due to a healthy lifestyle, that is, being non-smokers, being leaner and more physically active, and so on.
of all things to cherry pick, you grabbed that?
People who don't smoke, eat better, and are more active are less likely to die of cancer or heart disease. Sounds like legit cherry picking to me.0 -
That is the conclusion, I hardly call that cherry picking. :huh:
high intake of processed meat is linked to cancer
source?
here's a few, please follow the links for more data
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7015/11/63
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/780553
from those studies:
hese results indicate that the decreased mortality in vegetarians compared with the general population is in large part due to a healthy lifestyle, that is, being non-smokers, being leaner and more physically active, and so on.
of all things to cherry pick, you grabbed that?0 -
high intake of processed meat is linked to cancer
source?
here's a few, please follow the links for more data
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7015/11/63
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/780553
from those studies:
hese results indicate that the decreased mortality in vegetarians compared with the general population is in large part due to a healthy lifestyle, that is, being non-smokers, being leaner and more physically active, and so on.
of all things to cherry pick, you grabbed that?
People who don't smoke, eat better, and are more active are less likely to die of cancer or heart disease. Sounds like legit cherry picking to me.
maybe if you don't read the rest of the study, specifically where they address the comparisons of non vegetarians who eat processed meat to those who don't!0 -
actually no, you're thinking that I define whole food for us but I don't.
nutritionists and dietiticians do that
if you consider this an argument rather than a discussion, then I'll no longer address you lol
But, critical thinking requires that at times you look at arbitrary definitions and see that they are, in fact, arbitrary.
Here is a for instance, taking your own examples of chicken and wheat:
To process wheat:
Raise wheat, or find wild source
Take seeds, you can shake them free of the stalks, wheat does grow wild.
Use grinding stones (these were highly prized and passed down in families) to crush seeds and make powder/flour
Mix with water and perhaps add in a fat (animal fat was used prior to modern oils)
Make into flat pancake shape, cook on a flat heated stone on a fire if you don't have access to modern skillets.
Eat and enjoy.
To process chicken:
Raise chicken
Kill chicken by either ringing its neck or cutting its artery
Boil chicken for a few minutes to loosen feathers from skin, you can remove feathers without boiling first, but I wouldn't recommend it.
Pluck feathers, this is arduous at times.
Cut open cavity at base and remove internal organs, do it carefully.
Prepare chicken by boiling, baking, frying.
Eat and enjoy.
I have processed chickens, I have also ground wheat. I fail to see how it's more processed.
Here is another example, this one pertains to my local area and there is evidence that it was done more than 10,000 years ago here:
Burn the forest regularly to provide ideal growing environment.
Propagate and tend a field of Camas flowers, they do not grow where people don't place them, their seeds aren't carried by any animals.
Once a year, gather tribal members, and using a sharpened stick with a handle securely attached, dig up the Camas bulbs.
They will cause great stomach upset if eaten in this state.
Dig a VERY large pit and coat with stones, let a fire burn in it for days, until stones are very hot.
Place layer upon layer of bulbs in the pit and cover with more stones.
Let cook for a couple of days.
Remove bulbs, they can be eaten now if desired.
To prepare for storage dry out bulbs
They can be ground into powder, flattened stones were prized for this purpose and coveted.
Once ground into powder, use your family/clan's favorite recipe and make into cakes.
Take cakes to neighboring communities and trade for treasure: like valuable beads, obsidian for knives, dried salmon (though the tribes of my area were salmon fishers as well as camas growers).
Oh, wait, ^^^^^^ looks like it's pretty processed. Guess we better go tell the local Kalapuya tribes that their ancestors from 10,000 years ago were doing it wrong. Woopsies.0 -
Nutrition books are written as propaganda by shills for Big Nutrition, who perpetuates lies that we need them to know what to eat, because otherwise nobody would have any use for them and they'd have to go get real jobs. It's a conspiracy to keep you misinformed so they can take your money.
0 -
high intake of processed meat is linked to cancer
source?
here's a few, please follow the links for more data
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7015/11/63
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/780553
from those studies:
hese results indicate that the decreased mortality in vegetarians compared with the general population is in large part due to a healthy lifestyle, that is, being non-smokers, being leaner and more physically active, and so on.
of all things to cherry pick, you grabbed that?
People who don't smoke, eat better, and are more active are less likely to die of cancer or heart disease. Sounds like legit cherry picking to me.
maybe if you don't read the rest of the study, specifically where they address the comparisons of non vegetarians who eat processed meat to those who don't!
They concluded that excess meat consumption accounted for a 3% increase in mortality. The rest was due to overall lifestyle. Hardly the condemnation of meat you seem to think it is.0 -
actually no, you're thinking that I define whole food for us but I don't.
nutritionists and dietiticians do that
if you consider this an argument rather than a discussion, then I'll no longer address you lol
But, critical thinking requires that at times you look at arbitrary definitions and see that they are, in fact, arbitrary.
Here is a for instance, taking your own examples of chicken and wheat:
To process wheat:
Raise wheat, or find wild source
Take seeds, you can shake them free of the stalks, wheat does grow wild.
Use grinding stones (these were highly prized and passed down in families) to crush seeds and make powder/flour
Mix with water and perhaps add in a fat (animal fat was used prior to modern oils)
Make into flat pancake shape, cook on a flat heated stone on a fire if you don't have access to modern skillets.
Eat and enjoy.
To process chicken:
Raise chicken
Kill chicken by either ringing its neck or cutting its artery
Boil chicken for a few minutes to loosen feathers from skin, you can remove feathers without boiling first, but I wouldn't recommend it.
Pluck feathers, this is arduous at times.
Cut open cavity at base and remove internal organs, do it carefully.
Prepare chicken by boiling, baking, frying.
Eat and enjoy.
I have processed chickens, I have also ground wheat. I fail to see how it's more processed.
Here is another example, this one pertains to my local area and there is evidence that it was done more than 10,000 years ago here:
Burn the forest regularly to provide ideal growing environment.
Propagate and tend a field of Camas flowers, they do not grow where people don't place them, their seeds aren't carried by any animals.
Once a year, gather tribal members, and using a sharpened stick with a handle securely attached, dig up the Camas bulbs.
They will cause great stomach upset if eaten in this state.
Dig a VERY large pit and coat with stones, let a fire burn in it for days, until stones are very hot.
Place layer upon layer of bulbs in the pit and cover with more stones.
Let cook for a couple of days.
Remove bulbs, they can be eaten now if desired.
To prepare for storage dry out bulbs
They can be ground into powder, flattened stones were prized for this purpose and coveted.
Once ground into powder, use your family/clan's favorite recipe and make into cakes.
Take cakes to neighboring communities and trade for treasure: like valuable beads, obsidian for knives, dried salmon (though the tribes of my area were salmon fishers as well as camas growers).
Oh, wait, ^^^^^^ looks like it's pretty processed. Guess we better go tell the local Kalapuya tribes that their ancestors from 10,000 years ago were doing it wrong. Woopsies.
like I've said many times, plant foods are only considered whole if you can pick them and eat them. I didn't make this up myself, its the definition.0
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