All calories are not the same
Replies
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high intake of processed meat is linked to cancer
source?
here's a few, please follow the links for more data
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7015/11/63
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/780553
from those studies:
hese results indicate that the decreased mortality in vegetarians compared with the general population is in large part due to a healthy lifestyle, that is, being non-smokers, being leaner and more physically active, and so on.
of all things to cherry pick, you grabbed that?
People who don't smoke, eat better, and are more active are less likely to die of cancer or heart disease. Sounds like legit cherry picking to me.
maybe if you don't read the rest of the study, specifically where they address the comparisons of non vegetarians who eat processed meat to those who don't!
They concluded that excess meat consumption accounted for a 3% increase in mortality. The rest was due to overall lifestyle. Hardly the condemnation of meat you seem to think it is.
it didn't condemn meat at all
it linked consuming a lot of processed meat to cancer0 -
So, is a pineapple a whole food? Because you have to cut the skin off before it can be eaten.actually no, you're thinking that I define whole food for us but I don't.
nutritionists and dietiticians do that
if you consider this an argument rather than a discussion, then I'll no longer address you lol
But, critical thinking requires that at times you look at arbitrary definitions and see that they are, in fact, arbitrary.
Here is a for instance, taking your own examples of chicken and wheat:
To process wheat:
Raise wheat, or find wild source
Take seeds, you can shake them free of the stalks, wheat does grow wild.
Use grinding stones (these were highly prized and passed down in families) to crush seeds and make powder/flour
Mix with water and perhaps add in a fat (animal fat was used prior to modern oils)
Make into flat pancake shape, cook on a flat heated stone on a fire if you don't have access to modern skillets.
Eat and enjoy.
To process chicken:
Raise chicken
Kill chicken by either ringing its neck or cutting its artery
Boil chicken for a few minutes to loosen feathers from skin, you can remove feathers without boiling first, but I wouldn't recommend it.
Pluck feathers, this is arduous at times.
Cut open cavity at base and remove internal organs, do it carefully.
Prepare chicken by boiling, baking, frying.
Eat and enjoy.
I have processed chickens, I have also ground wheat. I fail to see how it's more processed.
Here is another example, this one pertains to my local area and there is evidence that it was done more than 10,000 years ago here:
Burn the forest regularly to provide ideal growing environment.
Propagate and tend a field of Camas flowers, they do not grow where people don't place them, their seeds aren't carried by any animals.
Once a year, gather tribal members, and using a sharpened stick with a handle securely attached, dig up the Camas bulbs.
They will cause great stomach upset if eaten in this state.
Dig a VERY large pit and coat with stones, let a fire burn in it for days, until stones are very hot.
Place layer upon layer of bulbs in the pit and cover with more stones.
Let cook for a couple of days.
Remove bulbs, they can be eaten now if desired.
To prepare for storage dry out bulbs
They can be ground into powder, flattened stones were prized for this purpose and coveted.
Once ground into powder, use your family/clan's favorite recipe and make into cakes.
Take cakes to neighboring communities and trade for treasure: like valuable beads, obsidian for knives, dried salmon (though the tribes of my area were salmon fishers as well as camas growers).
Oh, wait, ^^^^^^ looks like it's pretty processed. Guess we better go tell the local Kalapuya tribes that their ancestors from 10,000 years ago were doing it wrong. Woopsies.
like I've said many times, plant foods are only considered whole if you can pick them and eat them. I didn't make this up myself, its the definition.0 -
actually no, you're thinking that I define whole food for us but I don't.
nutritionists and dietiticians do that
if you consider this an argument rather than a discussion, then I'll no longer address you lol
But, critical thinking requires that at times you look at arbitrary definitions and see that they are, in fact, arbitrary.
Here is a for instance, taking your own examples of chicken and wheat:
To process wheat:
Raise wheat, or find wild source
Take seeds, you can shake them free of the stalks, wheat does grow wild.
Use grinding stones (these were highly prized and passed down in families) to crush seeds and make powder/flour
Mix with water and perhaps add in a fat (animal fat was used prior to modern oils)
Make into flat pancake shape, cook on a flat heated stone on a fire if you don't have access to modern skillets.
Eat and enjoy.
To process chicken:
Raise chicken
Kill chicken by either ringing its neck or cutting its artery
Boil chicken for a few minutes to loosen feathers from skin, you can remove feathers without boiling first, but I wouldn't recommend it.
Pluck feathers, this is arduous at times.
Cut open cavity at base and remove internal organs, do it carefully.
Prepare chicken by boiling, baking, frying.
Eat and enjoy.
I have processed chickens, I have also ground wheat. I fail to see how it's more processed.
Here is another example, this one pertains to my local area and there is evidence that it was done more than 10,000 years ago here:
Burn the forest regularly to provide ideal growing environment.
Propagate and tend a field of Camas flowers, they do not grow where people don't place them, their seeds aren't carried by any animals.
Once a year, gather tribal members, and using a sharpened stick with a handle securely attached, dig up the Camas bulbs.
They will cause great stomach upset if eaten in this state.
Dig a VERY large pit and coat with stones, let a fire burn in it for days, until stones are very hot.
Place layer upon layer of bulbs in the pit and cover with more stones.
Let cook for a couple of days.
Remove bulbs, they can be eaten now if desired.
To prepare for storage dry out bulbs
They can be ground into powder, flattened stones were prized for this purpose and coveted.
Once ground into powder, use your family/clan's favorite recipe and make into cakes.
Take cakes to neighboring communities and trade for treasure: like valuable beads, obsidian for knives, dried salmon (though the tribes of my area were salmon fishers as well as camas growers).
Oh, wait, ^^^^^^ looks like it's pretty processed. Guess we better go tell the local Kalapuya tribes that their ancestors from 10,000 years ago were doing it wrong. Woopsies.
like I've said many times, plant foods are only considered whole if you can pick them and eat them. I didn't make this up myself, its the definition.
So, if one accepts this definition of "whole foods" (which is fine as this was not meant to be a semantic argument), how exactly does choosing whole over processed food affect the nutritional qualities of food?
Put another way, this or that food is "whole" or "processed," but so what?0 -
high intake of processed meat is linked to cancer
source?
here's a few, please follow the links for more data
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7015/11/63
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/780553
from those studies:
hese results indicate that the decreased mortality in vegetarians compared with the general population is in large part due to a healthy lifestyle, that is, being non-smokers, being leaner and more physically active, and so on.
of all things to cherry pick, you grabbed that?
People who don't smoke, eat better, and are more active are less likely to die of cancer or heart disease. Sounds like legit cherry picking to me.
maybe if you don't read the rest of the study, specifically where they address the comparisons of non vegetarians who eat processed meat to those who don't!
They concluded that excess meat consumption accounted for a 3% increase in mortality. The rest was due to overall lifestyle. Hardly the condemnation of meat you seem to think it is.
it didn't condemn meat at all
it linked consuming a lot of processed meat to cancer
cancer or "mortality" from all causes?0 -
So, if one accepts this definition of "whole foods" (which is fine as this was not meant to be a semantic argument), how exactly does choosing whole over processed food affect the nutritional qualities of food?
Put another way, this or that food is "whole" or "processed," but so what?
lets get to it then. what do you think?0 -
Probably been said....I agree, some are tastier than others.
Oh, and also probably has been mentioned - macros will be pretty different. In fact, if my fats are low that day, pizza is probably a better choice than the chicken (assuming that I ate meat).0 -
cancer or "mortality" from all causes?
why would you ask me rather than read the link that was posted?
anywho, here is what the study that you can't read says:
"The results of our analysis support a moderate positive association between processed meat consumption and mortality, in particular due to cardiovascular diseases, but also to cancer."0 -
So, if one accepts this definition of "whole foods" (which is fine as this was not meant to be a semantic argument), how exactly does choosing whole over processed food affect the nutritional qualities of food?
Put another way, this or that food is "whole" or "processed," but so what?
lets get to it then. what do you think?
It seems arbitrary to me.
We can define these words any way we like but the definitions won't affect what goes on in our bodies, so if we choose definitions based on concepts that are "rules of thumb" (for want of a better phrase), then those words aren't very helpful to a discussion on nutrition.0 -
cancer or "mortality" from all causes?
why would you ask me rather than read the link that was posted?
anywho, here is what the study that you can't read says:
"The results of our analysis support a moderate positive association between processed meat consumption and mortality, in particular due to cardiovascular diseases, but also to cancer."
I'm honestly starting to question whether you read it given the discussion.0 -
Yes it is...it just might not be as healthy as the other calorie that you are considering...0
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cancer or "mortality" from all causes?
why would you ask me rather than read the link that was posted?
anywho, here is what the study that you can't read says:
"The results of our analysis support a moderate positive association between processed meat consumption and mortality, in particular due to cardiovascular diseases, but also to cancer."
I'm honestly starting to question whether you read it given the discussion.
I'm not too worried about your perception of me based on what you've read on here0 -
cancer or "mortality" from all causes?
why would you ask me rather than read the link that was posted?
anywho, here is what the study that you can't read says:
"The results of our analysis support a moderate positive association between processed meat consumption and mortality, in particular due to cardiovascular diseases, but also to cancer."
I'm honestly starting to question whether you read it given the discussion.
your reading comprehension doesn't exactly seem to be stellar, so I'm not too worried about your perception of me based on what you've read on here
You seem frustrated and appear to be lashing out. Is it the internet or a problems at home?0 -
actually no, you're thinking that I define whole food for us but I don't.
nutritionists and dietiticians do that
if you consider this an argument rather than a discussion, then I'll no longer address you lol
But, critical thinking requires that at times you look at arbitrary definitions and see that they are, in fact, arbitrary.
Here is a for instance, taking your own examples of chicken and wheat:
To process wheat:
Raise wheat, or find wild source
Take seeds, you can shake them free of the stalks, wheat does grow wild.
Use grinding stones (these were highly prized and passed down in families) to crush seeds and make powder/flour
Mix with water and perhaps add in a fat (animal fat was used prior to modern oils)
Make into flat pancake shape, cook on a flat heated stone on a fire if you don't have access to modern skillets.
Eat and enjoy.
To process chicken:
Raise chicken
Kill chicken by either ringing its neck or cutting its artery
Boil chicken for a few minutes to loosen feathers from skin, you can remove feathers without boiling first, but I wouldn't recommend it.
Pluck feathers, this is arduous at times.
Cut open cavity at base and remove internal organs, do it carefully.
Prepare chicken by boiling, baking, frying.
Eat and enjoy.
I have processed chickens, I have also ground wheat. I fail to see how it's more processed.
Here is another example, this one pertains to my local area and there is evidence that it was done more than 10,000 years ago here:
Burn the forest regularly to provide ideal growing environment.
Propagate and tend a field of Camas flowers, they do not grow where people don't place them, their seeds aren't carried by any animals.
Once a year, gather tribal members, and using a sharpened stick with a handle securely attached, dig up the Camas bulbs.
They will cause great stomach upset if eaten in this state.
Dig a VERY large pit and coat with stones, let a fire burn in it for days, until stones are very hot.
Place layer upon layer of bulbs in the pit and cover with more stones.
Let cook for a couple of days.
Remove bulbs, they can be eaten now if desired.
To prepare for storage dry out bulbs
They can be ground into powder, flattened stones were prized for this purpose and coveted.
Once ground into powder, use your family/clan's favorite recipe and make into cakes.
Take cakes to neighboring communities and trade for treasure: like valuable beads, obsidian for knives, dried salmon (though the tribes of my area were salmon fishers as well as camas growers).
Oh, wait, ^^^^^^ looks like it's pretty processed. Guess we better go tell the local Kalapuya tribes that their ancestors from 10,000 years ago were doing it wrong. Woopsies.
like I've said many times, plant foods are only considered whole if you can pick them and eat them. I didn't make this up myself, its the definition.
You are not thinking critically, you are arguing semantics.
Here, I can do it, too:
Definition of critical thinking -
"Critical thinking is a way of deciding whether a claim is always true, sometimes true, partly true, or false."
I'm too lazy to find it and quote it, but didn't you just say a few pages ago that you will only be arguing (woops, sorry, "discussing") with people who are critical thinkers? By that definition, you may not be able to have a discussion with yourself. Well, in addition to the fact that a full on back and forth with yourself is generally considered weird and A Really Bad Sign.0 -
Can you point us to where the definition of whole foods for plants is "ability to be picked and eaten?" I haven't been able to find it but want to understand the reasoning better.0
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So, if one accepts this definition of "whole foods" (which is fine as this was not meant to be a semantic argument), how exactly does choosing whole over processed food affect the nutritional qualities of food?
Put another way, this or that food is "whole" or "processed," but so what?
I have seen no scientific evidence to support the idea that a "whole" food diet is better than one of moderation.
I have anecdotal evidence that eating processed vs. whole foods does not matter. I'm stronger, happier, and healthier eating pizza and ice cream than I ever was only eating 'clean' because Jillian Michaels told me to (smh at myself).
If the weight of evidence shifts to supporting a whole food diet, so will I, because science is rad.0 -
A pound of macros weighs more than a pound of calories!
0 -
So, if one accepts this definition of "whole foods" (which is fine as this was not meant to be a semantic argument), how exactly does choosing whole over processed food affect the nutritional qualities of food?
Put another way, this or that food is "whole" or "processed," but so what?
I have seen no scientific evidence to support the idea that a "whole" food diet is better than one of moderation.
I have anecdotal evidence that eating processed vs. whole foods does not matter. I'm stronger, happier, and healthier eating pizza and ice cream than I ever was only eating 'clean' because Jillian Michaels told me to (smh at myself).
If the weight of evidence shifts to supporting a whole food diet, so will I, because science is rad.
thank you for actually sharing your view on this! I've been trying to shift the focus to this and behold! a wild critical thinker appears0 -
So, if one accepts this definition of "whole foods" (which is fine as this was not meant to be a semantic argument), how exactly does choosing whole over processed food affect the nutritional qualities of food?
Put another way, this or that food is "whole" or "processed," but so what?
I have seen no scientific evidence to support the idea that a "whole" food diet is better than one of moderation.
I have anecdotal evidence that eating processed vs. whole foods does not matter. I'm stronger, happier, and healthier eating pizza and ice cream than I ever was only eating 'clean' because Jillian Michaels told me to (smh at myself).
If the weight of evidence shifts to supporting a whole food diet, so will I, because science is rad.
:drinker: :drinker: :drinker: 0 -
It's true.
Some calories taste better.0 -
Can't we all just get along?
0 -
So, if one accepts this definition of "whole foods" (which is fine as this was not meant to be a semantic argument), how exactly does choosing whole over processed food affect the nutritional qualities of food?
Put another way, this or that food is "whole" or "processed," but so what?
I have seen no scientific evidence to support the idea that a "whole" food diet is better than one of moderation.
I have anecdotal evidence that eating processed vs. whole foods does not matter. I'm stronger, happier, and healthier eating pizza and ice cream than I ever was only eating 'clean' because Jillian Michaels told me to (smh at myself).
If the weight of evidence shifts to supporting a whole food diet, so will I, because science is rad.
^ This I agree with. My own experience supports your anecdotal evidence.
But I was having so much fun being "schooled" on Nutrition 101 and the definition of "whole foods" . . . but I still haven't received any answers . . .0 -
I have seen no scientific evidence to support the idea that a "whole" food diet is better than one of moderation.
I have anecdotal evidence that eating processed vs. whole foods does not matter. I'm stronger, happier, and healthier eating pizza and ice cream than I ever was only eating 'clean' because Jillian Michaels told me to (smh at myself).
If the weight of evidence shifts to supporting a whole food diet, so will I, because science is rad.^ This I agree with. My own experience supports your anecdotal evidence.
But I was having so much fun being "schooled" on Nutrition 101 and the definition of "whole foods" . . . but I still haven't received any answers . . .
aww you mad0 -
I have seen no scientific evidence to support the idea that a "whole" food diet is better than one of moderation.
I have anecdotal evidence that eating processed vs. whole foods does not matter. I'm stronger, happier, and healthier eating pizza and ice cream than I ever was only eating 'clean' because Jillian Michaels told me to (smh at myself).
If the weight of evidence shifts to supporting a whole food diet, so will I, because science is rad.^ This I agree with. My own experience supports your anecdotal evidence.
But I was having so much fun being "schooled" on Nutrition 101 and the definition of "whole foods" . . . but I still haven't received any answers . . .
aww you mad
My suspicion would be more frustrated with going in circles trying to reason, while the other side is spouting semantic nonsense. But, that's just my guess :flowerforyou:0 -
FFS a calorie is a calorie, end of story! Start a thread with a more relevant title like 'nutrient dense food vs low nutrient food' or just be honest and call it 'I think my diet and me are better than you so there!'
This pic is for all the morons on here...
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I have seen no scientific evidence to support the idea that a "whole" food diet is better than one of moderation.
I have anecdotal evidence that eating processed vs. whole foods does not matter. I'm stronger, happier, and healthier eating pizza and ice cream than I ever was only eating 'clean' because Jillian Michaels told me to (smh at myself).
If the weight of evidence shifts to supporting a whole food diet, so will I, because science is rad.^ This I agree with. My own experience supports your anecdotal evidence.
But I was having so much fun being "schooled" on Nutrition 101 and the definition of "whole foods" . . . but I still haven't received any answers . . .
aww you mad
Why would I be mad?0 -
My suspicion would be more frustrated with going in circles trying to reason, while the other side is spouting semantic nonsense. But, that's just my guess :flowerforyou:
I expected those who read this thread and my comments would have realized that I was suggesting "whole foods have more nutritional value than processed" was the OP's intention with this thread. and I wanted to hear people's opinions on that.
I wasn't worried about semantics and hadn't even shared my take on it. I would have been pleased to see answers that addressed those, but instead I got attacked.
nbd, moving on0 -
OP... I think you mean the calories are the same, but the vitamins and nutrients are different.
agreed^0 -
Alicia, I don't want my question to get missed in all the debates. Can you give me a link? I did do a search but couldn't find it.0
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Alicia, I don't want my question to get missed in all the debates. Can you give me a link? I did do a search but couldn't find it.
I definitely missed your question, what was it?0 -
Can you point us to where the definition of whole foods for plants is "ability to be picked and eaten?" I haven't been able to find it but want to understand the reasoning better.0
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