"The problem with sugar is your problem with sugar"

Mini_horse_lover

Bumping to read for later

wild_wild_life

I want to know what this intracranial self stimulation thing is all about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_stimulation_reward

Yeah, I looked it up too. Doesn't sound as fun if they have to put in electrodes first.

Yep. It pretty much looks like a science fiction movie. I'm a little afraid to Google 'forced swim'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioural_despair_test

It's actually kind of interesting. I see a correlate in posting on the boards. How long does it take to realize it's hopeless?

About a year, in my experience.

And yet here we are, still swimming...

QuietBloom

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioural_despair_test

It's actually kind of interesting. I see a correlate in posting on the boards. How long does it take to realize it's hopeless?

Oh GOD! I was telling someone about this test just a couple of hours ago. :frown: How weird to have it crop up in a discussion like this. *looks nervously over shoulder*

tifferz_91

But

Dragonwolf

You say this yet you yourself can't even abstain. How would you know if learning moderation is harder when you haven't even shown that you can master abstinence.

I've been mostly doing it for the last 6 months. Trust me, if I kept "bad foods" around the house, I'd probably be eating them more often than not. Sometimes I still fail, so I guess you are right that at least total abstinence hasn't worked. My willpower just isn't that strong.

let's see... i have pizza and bagels in the house. cinnamon & raisin bagels are my kryptonite. i had one slice of pizza for breakfast at 8:15AM. i had a banana about 2 hours later. i'm sitting here wasting time on MFP and yet these yummy foods are in my house and i'm not eating them. why exactly am i able to resist going downstairs and eating all of the pizza and bagels and you are not?... that's a didactic question. the answer is that i don't blame the food, i understand that i can and do eat those foods, and i am able to control the amounts i do eat because i'm not constantly depriving myself of them (and thus obsessing over them). try changing your mindset. i bet it will work better for you than what you're currently doing, because "dieting" is never the answer... changing your relationship with food is.

Some of us have changed our relationship with food. We broke it off. The foods I choose not to eat are in my house, at my job, in every grocery store and restaurant I go to. I can eat them morning, noon, and night, if I CHOOSE to and do not obsess over them. I have free will. I choose to exercise it in the way the suits me best. I do not feel deprived, I feel EMPOWERED. Obviously in the same way you do. And most likely we would find our day to day behaviors were not that much different from one another. Except when it comes to wine. But that is another story.

And maybe in the same way that some who feels that they are addicted and successful in abstinence does. There is obviously more than one path to success...

This says it beautifully.

Remember all the talk about Oreos a few pages back? I used to be able to down half a package of them in a sitting. I no longer touch them and don't really miss them. I don't obsess over them just because I've stopped eating them. I can walk by them in the grocery store and not be compelled to pick any up. I can even have them in the house and not feel compelled to eat any. The thought of them hadn't even occurred to me until it got brought up here. I have found, though, that if I do eat one, the craving for more is there. So I don't eat any. Besides, I'd rather spend my calorie allotment on good chocolate.

Also, the processed sources of sugar, such as Oreos, are actually engineered to cause a physiological addictive response (these are known as "highly palatable foods"). They're made to have just the right combinations of sugar, salt, and fat to maximize the dopamine response. It's that dopamine high that addicts of all sorts chase. And just like those who frequently take drugs, those who eat the highly palatable foods in order to get the dopamine response have to consume more to get the same response. Likewise, if you cut off the supply for a length of time, and try to consume at the amounts that you had, previously, you end up with worse effects (in the case of highly palatable foods, that's often an upset stomach at amounts that didn't used to affect you). Additionally, like drugs, the highly palatable foods (and all stimulation, really) alter the neural pathways in the brain, and consuming the item in question reinforces those pathways. Abstaining from them helps diminish them, but whether a person can reintroduce the item depends on how strong and easily re-established those pathways are.

It may be also worth noting that people who go from a high carb intake to a low carb intake almost invariably experience some level of "carb flu," which has symptoms not unlike what's seen in other withdrawal situations, and that these symptoms are often worse when going from a diet heavy in highly processed carbs (ie - lots of the "junk food" and not much in the way of vegetable and fruit based carbs) to one that is primarily naturally-sourced carbs (which don't provide the same dopamine response, even at the same levels of carbs).

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/23/health/23well.html?_r=0
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/addiction/drugs/

the oreo was invented in 1912. i highly doubt anyone was "engineering foods to cause a physiological addictive response" more than 100 years ago.

Yes, because companies never change their recipes.

Oh, wait...

(Random factoid, the original Oreos were made with pork fat.)

Dragonwolf

cmeirun,

I've seen a lot of topics posted lately regarding sugar, and thought I'd share this article I just read. It's long, but it's a very good read and provides a science- and evidence-based discussion of the carbohydrate that causes such consternation:

http://www.fitnessbaddies.com/your-problem-with-sugar-is-the-problem-with-sugar/

Enjoy, fellow sweet-toothers!

Thank you for posting.
With all due respect, I didn't see much in the way of evidence in the blog post. The following might provide some balance:

http://nutritionfacts.org/topics/sugar/

kind regards,

Ben

Did you read either article? The one you provided had some nice facts in it that no one here nor the original article would refute but was also lacking in any real substance. It doesn't address the original post at all. Here it is in its entirety.

Sugar consumption alone does not appear to cause hyperactivity in children, although it obviously is not good for kids’ teeth and has been tied to the risk of diabetes. In fact, 17% of calories in the American diet come from added sugars. The gratuitous inclusion of sugar in the USDA Dietary Guidelines may be due to corporate influence (see here, here, here, here, here). Sugar and high fructose corn syrup are about equal in terms of nutritional value (which is about zero). However, high fructose corn syrup may contain mercury so sugar may be a relatively safer option. There actually are two sweeteners that have some nutrition (see also here).

The sugar in dark chocolate means cocoa powder is a better choice to reduce bad cholesterol and boost good cholesterol. Similarly, commercial cranberry juice and Cheerios have added sugar which detracts from their value as health-promoting foods. The addition of cinnamon to meats may actually blunt the blood sugar spike caused by sugary foods.

However, the bolded line was hilarious.


The sugar in dark chocolate means cocoa powder is a better choice? What does this even mean? What does the sugar in dark chocolate have to do with the cocoa powder? Were they trying to say that dark chocolate is better than milk chocolate because it has less sugar and more cocoa powder? It's hard to take an article seriously when it has such indecipherable statements like that one in it.

In closing, this added nothing to OPs article. It neither refuted it nor supported it. It was just a bunch of loosely related facts.

Not all chocolate is created equal. Cocoa has a ton of flavonoids in it that are great for your health (and heart!). In fact, cocoa powder ranks higher than nearly all of the super fruits when it comes to antioxidants and polyphenols. However, the addition of milk breaks down those flavonoids, and the negative effects of sugar start diminishing the positives of the cocoa. Therefore dark chocolate is better than milk chocolate, and cocoa powder (which has neither milk nor sugar) is better than even dark chocolate.

http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/20110207/is-chocolate-the-next-super-food

Also, the processed sources of sugar, such as Oreos, are actually engineered to cause a physiological addictive response (these are known as "highly palatable foods").

*kitten*!! I can never find my tinfoil hat when I need it!

Yes, because pointing out that food manufacturers would and do do things to influence people's purchase decisions (which is pretty much business 101, by the way - do what you can to get people to buy more) is clearly grounds for tinfoil hatting. Because, you know, it's not like there's precedence from other consumer products industries or anything...

http://www.drugfree.org/join-together/addiction/philip-morris-admits-making
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Healthday/story?id=4508170&page=1

Oh, wait...

BrainyBurro

Also, the processed sources of sugar, such as Oreos, are actually engineered to cause a physiological addictive response (these are known as "highly palatable foods").

I can never find my tinfoil hat when I need it!

Yes, because pointing out that food manufacturers would and do do things to influence people's purchase decisions (which is pretty much business 101, by the way - do what you can to get people to buy more) is clearly grounds for tinfoil hatting. Because, you know, it's not like there's precedence from other consumer products industries or anything...

http://www.drugfree.org/join-together/addiction/philip-morris-admits-making
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Healthday/story?id=4508170&page=1

Oh, wait...

[/quote]

so you're saying cigarettes are food???

are you by any chance a big fan of The X-Files?

LozzaCozza93

I'mover on my sugar according to MFP by midday almost every single day. Boo.

QuietBloom

Dragonwolf: Cigarettes are not food.

ThickMcRunFast

Just want to come back and say that I'm doing a several day carb depletion as part of a pre-marathon nutrition plan (come Thursday I eat ALL THE CARBS). I have a slight headache and am a little bit foggy and irritable.

Anyone who compares this feeling to actual drug withdrawl is a f*cking moron.

jofjltncb6

Just want to come back and say that I'm doing a several day carb depletion as part of a pre-marathon nutrition plan (come Thursday I eat ALL THE CARBS). I have a slight headache and am a little bit foggy and irritable.

Anyone who compares this feeling to actual drug withdrawl is a f*cking moron.

Irritable? You don't say...

( :flowerforyou: )

yoovie

cigarettes taste nasty.

someone dropped a butt in my beer bottle once and it made me throw up.

at least it voided my beer calories.

RipperSB

I'mover on my sugar according to MFP by midday almost every single day. Boo.

Yeah, just checked Reports myself. Out of the last 90 days I was under exactly 5 times. MFP has my limit pegged at 43 g (out of a total of 293 g carbs... ). My breakfast banana and lunchtime apple are 43 g sugar right there.

ThickMcRunFast

Just want to come back and say that I'm doing a several day carb depletion as part of a pre-marathon nutrition plan (come Thursday I eat ALL THE CARBS). I have a slight headache and am a little bit foggy and irritable.

Anyone who compares this feeling to actual drug withdrawl is a f*cking moron.

Irritable? You don't say...

( :flowerforyou: )

Yup, I am more 'does not play nice with others' than usual.

walkinthedogs

What i got from the article was...... Sugar is not the problem... so just sayinf i'm going to not eat sugar and expect weightloss won't work. Learngin and understanding how things truely play a roll in nutrition and being educated will help in the long run. Sugar is not the devil excess is the devil. end of story. and moderation will help people who try and go cold turkey and fail because they get consumed by the fact that they are eliminating an ingredient and then dissaspointed when they slip when in the long run having sugar won't ruin your goal for healthier life or weightoss. The point is that the thought process that eliminating sugar from your life is some magical cure is false and misleading and a setup for failure,.

I wish I would have just read your message instead of the many many many minutes I spend trying to get through her article. Can we say less is more! I kept getting lost on what the hell her message was supposed to be saying. You were succinct (briefly and clearly expressed) and I believe hit the nail on the head. However, I still think you have to ultimately do what works for you and finding that "works for me" can take some practice and is different for different people. Love these threads though, they make me laugh so hard.

LittleAngelamj

Thanks, this is a great article.

Dragonwolf

Dragonwolf: Cigarettes are not food.

Where did I ever say they were? They are, however, a consumer product, and one that people consume. In the case of cigarettes, one burns them and inhales the smoke. That's still consumption, and it still has an effect on the body and causes a dopamine response, driving people to want more after they come down from the high. Some people have a stronger drive than others.

Additionally, a company doesn't have to learn tactics solely from its own industry. In fact, a smart executive will look for successes in other industries and see if/how they can apply it to their own. Therefore, it's not much of a stretch, let alone tinfoil hat territory, to think that a company like Nestle, Nabisco, or Frito-Lay would look at the fact that Phillip Morris toys with their ingredients in order to get more people to buy their product and get the people who are buying to buy more/more often, and start experimenting with their own, based on the fact that humans have evolved to go after things that taste sweet, salty, and fatty. Get some combination of all three that makes it very hard to resist, because it triggers a dopamine response far beyond what can be found in nature (where sweet, salty, and fatty are rarely found together in a single food item), and you can increase revenue. Like I said, business 101. It's not tinfoil hat, it's smart business.

Just want to come back and say that I'm doing a several day carb depletion as part of a pre-marathon nutrition plan (come Thursday I eat ALL THE CARBS). I have a slight headache and am a little bit foggy and irritable.

Anyone who compares this feeling to actual drug withdrawl is a f*cking moron.

Not all drugs are black tar heroine or crack cocaine and come with got-hit-by-a-train withdrawal symptoms. Alcohol and prescription medications are still drugs, and they can still cause withdrawal symptoms. The withdrawal symptoms vary depending on the specific substance due to how it interacts with a given individual, how much of a tolerance they have, and how much (and for how long) they've been consuming the substance. Even for the same substance, the withdrawal symptoms can vary from person to person. Even things like Tylenol and Ibuprofen can cause what is known as "rebound," or a returning of the symptoms they were taken to relieve, as an effect of stopping them, if you take them too often or for too long.

Additionally, just because you only felt "a little bit foggy and irritable," it doesn't mean those are the only symptoms felt by people, or that the severity with which you've felt it is the only severity level (nor does it mean that they aren't withdrawal symptoms). It's known as "carb flu" for a reason - many of the symptoms include chills, shakiness, nausea, fatigue, irritability, and brain fog - flu-like symptoms. And like anything else, the number and severity of the symptoms depends on the individual.

WendyTerry420

Dragonwolf: Cigarettes are not food.

Where did I ever say they were? They are, however, a consumer product, and one that people consume. In the case of cigarettes, one burns them and inhales the smoke. That's still consumption, and it still has an effect on the body and causes a dopamine response, driving people to want more after they come down from the high. Some people have a stronger drive than others.

Additionally, a company doesn't have to learn tactics solely from its own industry. In fact, a smart executive will look for successes in other industries and see if/how they can apply it to their own. Therefore, it's not much of a stretch, let alone tinfoil hat territory, to think that a company like Nestle, Nabisco, or Frito-Lay would look at the fact that Phillip Morris toys with their ingredients in order to get more people to buy their product and get the people who are buying to buy more/more often, and start experimenting with their own, based on the fact that humans have evolved to go after things that taste sweet, salty, and fatty. Get some combination of all three that makes it very hard to resist, because it triggers a dopamine response far beyond what can be found in nature (where sweet, salty, and fatty are rarely found together in a single food item), and you can increase revenue. Like I said, business 101. It's not tinfoil hat, it's smart business.

Just want to come back and say that I'm doing a several day carb depletion as part of a pre-marathon nutrition plan (come Thursday I eat ALL THE CARBS). I have a slight headache and am a little bit foggy and irritable.

Anyone who compares this feeling to actual drug withdrawl is a f*cking moron.

Not all drugs are black tar heroine or crack cocaine and come with got-hit-by-a-train withdrawal symptoms. Alcohol and prescription medications are still drugs, and they can still cause withdrawal symptoms. The withdrawal symptoms vary depending on the specific substance due to how it interacts with a given individual, how much of a tolerance they have, and how much (and for how long) they've been consuming the substance. Even for the same substance, the withdrawal symptoms can vary from person to person. Even things like Tylenol and Ibuprofen can cause what is known as "rebound," or a returning of the symptoms they were taken to relieve, as an effect of stopping them, if you take them too often or for too long.

Additionally, just because you only felt "a little bit foggy and irritable," it doesn't mean those are the only symptoms felt by people, or that the severity with which you've felt it is the only severity level (nor does it mean that they aren't withdrawal symptoms). It's known as "carb flu" for a reason - many of the symptoms include chills, shakiness, nausea, fatigue, irritability, and brain fog - flu-like symptoms. And like anything else, the number and severity of the symptoms depends on the individual.

Just WOW!

Like I said earlier in the thread, nicotine is the reason I know the difference between an addiction and a bad habit. Name *any* food that is part of your wild claim and I can promise you that I can eat one serving of it then put it down. It's *not* addictive. Nicotine is.

ThickMcRunFast

Dragonwolf: Cigarettes are not food.

Where did I ever say they were? They are, however, a consumer product, and one that people consume. In the case of cigarettes, one burns them and inhales the smoke. That's still consumption, and it still has an effect on the body and causes a dopamine response, driving people to want more after they come down from the high. Some people have a stronger drive than others.

Additionally, a company doesn't have to learn tactics solely from its own industry. In fact, a smart executive will look for successes in other industries and see if/how they can apply it to their own. Therefore, it's not much of a stretch, let alone tinfoil hat territory, to think that a company like Nestle, Nabisco, or Frito-Lay would look at the fact that Phillip Morris toys with their ingredients in order to get more people to buy their product and get the people who are buying to buy more/more often, and start experimenting with their own, based on the fact that humans have evolved to go after things that taste sweet, salty, and fatty. Get some combination of all three that makes it very hard to resist, because it triggers a dopamine response far beyond what can be found in nature (where sweet, salty, and fatty are rarely found together in a single food item), and you can increase revenue. Like I said, business 101. It's not tinfoil hat, it's smart business.

Just want to come back and say that I'm doing a several day carb depletion as part of a pre-marathon nutrition plan (come Thursday I eat ALL THE CARBS). I have a slight headache and am a little bit foggy and irritable.

Anyone who compares this feeling to actual drug withdrawl is a f*cking moron.

Not all drugs are black tar heroine or crack cocaine and come with got-hit-by-a-train withdrawal symptoms. Alcohol and prescription medications are still drugs, and they can still cause withdrawal symptoms. The withdrawal symptoms vary depending on the specific substance due to how it interacts with a given individual, how much of a tolerance they have, and how much (and for how long) they've been consuming the substance. Even for the same substance, the withdrawal symptoms can vary from person to person. Even things like Tylenol and Ibuprofen can cause what is known as "rebound," or a returning of the symptoms they were taken to relieve, as an effect of stopping them, if you take them too often or for too long.

Additionally, just because you only felt "a little bit foggy and irritable," it doesn't mean those are the only symptoms felt by people, or that the severity with which you've felt it is the only severity level (nor does it mean that they aren't withdrawal symptoms). It's known as "carb flu" for a reason - many of the symptoms include chills, shakiness, nausea, fatigue, irritability, and brain fog - flu-like symptoms. And like anything else, the number and severity of the symptoms depends on the individual.

LOL at thinking alcohol detox tremors or oxy withdrawl are like going without carbs for a few days.