Big 4 Lifts, What Muscles are Left Out?

FrnkLft

So I thought this would make for a good topic... in the following lifts, what muscles would you say are insufficiently worked?

Bench
OH Press
Deadlift
Squat

The way I see it...

Biceps. I know they are used to help lower the weight on pressing movements, and that they are present whenever wrist rotation is in play, but they really don't get worked unless you're doing rows (another compound lift, sure).

Abs. Abs are used to help stabalize your core on most lifts, but they act to keep things stable, they are not truely movers.

Calves. Worse than abs lol All but completely neglected.

Side & Rear Delts. Again, they are used (and if you're rowing they really come into play depending on your form), but the front delts get all the glory.

Lats. They're like the biceps of the back. They help in lowering overhead loads and stablization, but they don't get much love otherwise.

waldo56

Rhomboids - Another muscle that rows will hit that the big 4 largely leaves out. Deadlifts could depending on your form.

Lower traps - Totally different area of your muscle than the upper traps, does the opposite movement. Most people who work with weights exclusively are extremely weak in the lower traps. Responsible for rotating the scaps down, pushing the shoulders down. A properly done dip at lockout will work the lower traps. So will a pullup that goes all the way to chest to bar contact (a chin over bar pullup does not work the lower traps, getting strong at chin over bar pullups in no way translates to chest to bar pullup strength). Lower trap strength is needed to support yourself in an L-sit (and give you ground clearance).

Cherimoose

I agree with both suggestions.

I like to balance pushing sets with an equal number of pulling sets. I consider "pulling" to be full range of motion of the arm backward or downward.. which would exclude deadlifts.

Also there are a bunch of skills that aren't adequately trained in the big 4, like stabilization, movement in all directions, asymmetrical loading, etc.

JoRocka

I concur. I feel like pull up/row work is often forgotten (HOW i have no idea) I feel like it's SO crucial.

Love my back work- almost as much as leg work. Back work is awesome.

Always trying to hit that deep side lat action. Feels great- it's so important to include this.

Leadfoot_Lewis

I agree with all this. This is why I personally won't do any Stronglifts, SS, or any of the Compound Lift only workouts. I don't believe they hit all the muscle groups and definitely don't get you moving in all planes of motion. Don't get me wrong, I do all the Compound Lifts but also include a bit of isolation work. If you don't get too carried away with the isolation work (as I'm sometimes guility of-LOL) I think it's a good balance.

BusyRaeNOTBusty

But Strong Lifts has Pendlay Rows too. Supposedly will get lats and traps and biceps.

mommabenefield

this is a topic I will keep watching :drinker:

I agree with all this. This is why I personally won't do any Stronglifts, SS, or any of the Compound Lift only workouts. I don't believe they hit all the muscle groups and definitely don't get you moving in all planes of motion. Don't get me wrong, I do all the Compound Lifts but also include a bit of isolation work. If you don't get too carried away with the isolation work (as I'm sometimes guility of-LOL) I think it's a good balance.

So for someone doing SS, what isolation exercises would you add in?

NeverCatchYourBreath

If you're talking about muscles that "move" during these moves then I guess I agree with you. But I don't really agree that they are "left out" completely. They are definitely being contracted during all of these moves. Yes, even your calves. So, I really can't say they're being completely left out during these moves.

mheebner

So just do barbell rows. I do rows and I have seen some newbie gains with my lats and whatever the muscles are called between the shoulder and neck. I can also feel the rows working the middle back muscles as well.

I feel that biceps are not getting the workout I want from them so I do extra bicep isolations, curls bro.(mark rippentoes guilty pleasure). I also do calf raises but have been trailing off on them as I put more miles on running.

Leadfoot_Lewis

So for someone doing SS, what isolation exercises would you add in?

These aren't so much isolation lifts, but I believe they isolate some muscles groups more than they're currently getting hit doing SS. Personally, I'd add 1 of these to the end of each workout:

Chin Ups
Barbell Row or Bent Over Barbell Row (wide grip which isolates the upper back-rear delts, Rhomboids, Traps)
Dips

iceey

Good post! I have been wondering about this with the 5x5 program.

mheebner

I plan on doing more dips, pull ups, etc as soon as I lose more body weight. I think adding in these assistance exercises could hit a lot of those muscles that seem neglected. I am just too heavy yet to start.

cwolfman13

I agree with all this. This is why I personally won't do any Stronglifts, SS, or any of the Compound Lift only workouts. I don't believe they hit all the muscle groups and definitely don't get you moving in all planes of motion. Don't get me wrong, I do all the Compound Lifts but also include a bit of isolation work. If you don't get too carried away with the isolation work (as I'm sometimes guility of-LOL) I think it's a good balance.

I tend to agree...but I usually still recommend something like SL or SS to noobs...IMHO they get the most bang for their buck as noobs when they're getting a lot of exposure to those compound lifts...isolation lifts can often be counterproductive when you're a noob. I do think a lot of people, especially here on MFP where SL and SS are king, a lot of people kinda forget that these routines are geared more towards beginners and not really designed to do forever. I guess SL has an intermediate to advanced progression, but a lot of people don't seem to really follow that program the way it's designed...and ultimately, outside of being good for noobs it's more of a power lifting template anyway which puts very little emphasis on anything other than those big lifts.

JNick77

I concur. I feel like pull up/row work is often forgotten (HOW i have no idea) I feel like it's SO crucial.

Because pull-ups are hard and most people don't want to work that hard.

These aren't so much isolation lifts, but I believe they isolate some muscles groups more than they're currently getting hit doing SS. Personally, I'd add 1 of these to the end of each workout:

Chin Ups
Barbell Row or Bent Over Barbell Row (wide grip which isolates the upper back-rear delts, Rhomboids, Traps)
Dips

Yup. Things like simple Back Raises are often left out. Most people fail in the squat and deadlift with a weak posterior chain and that definitely needs some additional focus.

Another thing that I think gets overlooked is the health of your rotator cuff. Adding in some deltoid work is pretty important.

jacksonpt

I'm not trying to be an *kitten* (it just happens naturally most of the time), but I don't understand the point of this thread.

The big 4 aren't meant to hit every muscle, they are meant to build functional strength. And the idea of muscle being worked sufficiently/insufficiently will depend largely on goals and progress. Furthermore, a lot of the secondary/stabilizing muscles are worked more or less depending on on the individual's and how conscious they are to engage those muscle. Abs can play a huge role in deads, lats in the bench, calves in deadlifts (especially stiff legged deads), etc. But if a person's form is off or whatever, those muscles may well get very little work.

That said, speaking VERY generally, I think a pull-up/row movement is missing.

JNick77

this is a topic I will keep watching :drinker:

I agree with all this. This is why I personally won't do any Stronglifts, SS, or any of the Compound Lift only workouts. I don't believe they hit all the muscle groups and definitely don't get you moving in all planes of motion. Don't get me wrong, I do all the Compound Lifts but also include a bit of isolation work. If you don't get too carried away with the isolation work (as I'm sometimes guility of-LOL) I think it's a good balance.

So for someone doing SS, what isolation exercises would you add in?

I would say at least do some chin-ups, dips, back raises. Very simple, very effective...

FrnkLft

Yeah see, this is important because these are sometimes lauded as the end-all-beat-all full body routine. While I still believe the big four need to be the focal point of every routine, assistance work (lesser movements, not necessarily isolation though that's included) are very important as well. Even curls lol

It's just a point that I think is worth making, so that beginners, and anyone else for that matter, will understand. The big four are the most important exercises hands down, but there is a need for reasonable assistance work (ideally compound as well) to compliment them.

About programs like StrongLifts 5x5 and Starting Strength. These are excellent for beginners. You're not missing out on anything by doing these for your first few months until you're up to speed and realizing your true strength. Especially if you're rowing. Barbell row or dumbbell row, whichever.

FitForL1fe

This is probably why a lot of good programs (like 5/3/1) include pulling accessory lifts:

one-arm db rows
bb rows/two-arm db rows
pull-ups
chin-ups

You can also include bb/db curls, etc.

Don't forget that programs such as SS are novice programs, and are most likely not meant to be comprehensive! Oh, and doesn't Rippetoe recommend doing cleans in his program? Those will def hit the calves :-P

VaTechM3

I plan on doing more dips, pull ups, etc as soon as I lose more body weight. I think adding in these assistance exercises could hit a lot of those muscles that seem neglected. I am just too heavy yet to start.

You can always modify to take off some of the extra weight. From doing p90x, you could put a stool under your pull up bar and stand on that with on leg so you're not lifting your entire weight.

Also, I've noticed gyms having assisted pullup/dips machines where you can select the weight you want to use.

Good luck out there! Think of it this way, the more weight you are, the faster your muscles will grow (probably not true lol, but maybe its motivation?)

mikemc620

My workouts consist of Squats, Bench/Row, Deadlifts, OHP/Pull-ups plus any additional accessory work that I might want to include.

My biceps work will be me doing rows or chin-ups, I don't do curls.

I like to do pulls for every push that I do.

JNick77

Don't forget that programs such as SS are novice programs, and are most likely not meant to be comprehensive! Oh, and doesn't Rippetoe recommend doing cleans in his program? Those will def hit the calves :-P

My calves are in really good shape and I haven't done a calf raise in a good year or so probably, just Squat, Deadlift, sometimes SLDL, and sprints. Kinda' interesting that Rip has a "beginner" program yet puts a very technical lift in the program. A little contradictory and he's received a bit of crap about that from his peers.

FrnkLft

So for someone doing SS, what isolation exercises would you add in?

Well SS covers this in the programming secion. I do know that SS mentions doing chin ups and back extensions, and that's just as well. That will hit most of the muscles listed here as missing. He suggests doing the chins:

Workout A:
Squat
Press
Deadlift/Power Clean

Workout B:
Squat
Bench
Back Extensions (Roman Chair)
Chinups/Pullups

bizco

I think the glutes are often forgotten. They get some work during deadlifts but not nearly enough. Unless you're doing hip thrusts and glute bridges, you're doing yourself a disservice.

FrnkLft

Don't forget that programs such as SS are novice programs, and are most likely not meant to be comprehensive! Oh, and doesn't Rippetoe recommend doing cleans in his program? Those will def hit the calves :-P

My calves are in really good shape and I haven't done a calf raise in a good year or so probably, just Squat, Deadlift, sometimes SLDL, and sprints. Kinda' interesting that Rip has a "beginner" program yet puts a very technical lift in the program. A little contradictory and he's received a bit of crap about that from his peers.

How is this possible exactly? I'm not saying that it's not, but which of your exercises seem to hit your calves sufficiently?

I know "feel" isn't always the best indicator, but I just don't see how the calves are sufficiently recruited in the big four. Or is it just a matter of lifting weight that is heavy enough (say, on the deadlift) to where they would come into play? I only really get the feeling I'm using them when I make the mistake of rocking forward on the squat and deads.

I think the glutes are often forgotten. They get some work during deadlifts but not nearly enough. Unless you're doing hip thrusts and glute bridges, you're doing yourself a disservice.

Just wait untill the weight gets heavy. And I don't mean heavy for you right now, I mean, heavy for your bodyweight. You'll feel you glutes on the deadlift and squats for sure.

That said, no shame in some extra compound glute work, for sure.

BusyRaeNOTBusty

I think the glutes are often forgotten. They get some work during deadlifts but not nearly enough. Unless you're doing hip thrusts and glute bridges, you're doing yourself a disservice.

Parallel squats seem to work my glutes enough.

MisterDerpington

Biceps. I know they are used to help lower the weight on pressing movements, and that they are present whenever wrist rotation is in play, but they really don't get worked unless you're doing rows (another compound lift, sure).

Do a 1RM Bench Press and you'll see just how much biceps are used. Also, a lot of programs do include Rows or Chin-Ups which directly work the biceps.

Abs. Abs are used to help stabalize your core on most lifts, but they act to keep things stable, they are not truely movers.

Stabilizing is what the abs are meant to do. Try an exercise called Front Squat Holds. Basically just load a bar heavy, unrack in a Front Squat and just hold it while standing upright. Your abs will be more sore than any other exercise. It's worked immensely when you're under the bar during Squats.

Calves. Worse than abs lol All but completely neglected.

If you're looking for hypertrophy I can see your point,but once again, they're used quite a bit for stabilizing.

Side & Rear Delts. Again, they are used (and if you're rowing they really come into play depending on your form), but the front delts get all the glory.

Lats. They're like the biceps of the back. They help in lowering overhead loads and stablization, but they don't get much love otherwise.

Again almost all programs recommend an upper body pull of sometime (even in Starting Strength, Chin-Ups are pretty much always added very early on).

MisterDerpington

this is a topic I will keep watching :drinker:

I agree with all this. This is why I personally won't do any Stronglifts, SS, or any of the Compound Lift only workouts. I don't believe they hit all the muscle groups and definitely don't get you moving in all planes of motion. Don't get me wrong, I do all the Compound Lifts but also include a bit of isolation work. If you don't get too carried away with the isolation work (as I'm sometimes guility of-LOL) I think it's a good balance.

So for someone doing SS, what isolation exercises would you add in?

If you're doing true SS with Power Cleans, then add Chin-Ups. If you can't do bodyweight chin-ups, your substitute will depend on the equipment you have. If you have a door frame pull up bar, you can do negatives. If you have quality bands available you can use them to assist you in chin-ups or a weight-assisted chin-up machine. Lastly there's lat-pulldowns with the supine (chin-up) grip.

EDIT: Someone else mentioned Dips, which is a really good exercise. But Rip does mention that your Bench should be notably improved before adding in Dips.

erickirb

Good conversations here.

I agree with others about pulls, there may be some but I like for every vertical push to have a vertical pull, for every horizontal push a horizontal pull.

So If I do flat bench, my routine will have either DB rows or Pendlay Rows. If I do OHP I do chin-ups or pull-ups. If I do decline bench press, I would do upright row as the pull.

I do a push/pull split now, so the offsetting pull to the push can be done in a different workout.

cwolfman13

I think the glutes are often forgotten. They get some work during deadlifts but not nearly enough. Unless you're doing hip thrusts and glute bridges, you're doing yourself a disservice.

<<<<squats = dude donk....

MisterDerpington

ITT: People who think programs focused on the Big 4 only use the Big 4.

JoRocka

I'm not trying to be an *kitten* (it just happens naturally most of the time), but I don't understand the point of this thread.

The big 4 aren't meant to hit every muscle, they are meant to build functional strength. And the idea of muscle being worked sufficiently/insufficiently will depend largely on goals and progress. Furthermore, a lot of the secondary/stabilizing muscles are worked more or less depending on on the individual's and how conscious they are to engage those muscle. Abs can play a huge role in deads, lats in the bench, calves in deadlifts (especially stiff legged deads), etc. But if a person's form is off or whatever, those muscles may well get very little work.

That said, speaking VERY generally, I think a pull-up/row movement is missing.

I think it's useful because people ask about lifting- we always toss out COMPOUND LIFTS.

Which YES- it's great- it's a wonderful place to start- and really you'll see some tremendous gains- but ultimately there needs to be some supplemental work.

I think the glutes are often forgotten. They get some work during deadlifts but not nearly enough. Unless you're doing hip thrusts and glute bridges, you're doing yourself a disservice.

huh?? squats and deads are all about dat *kitten*

that being said- I do 4 different variety of squats and walking lunges- and BB bridge lifts. I butt/leg work. LOL