Big 4 Lifts, What Muscles are Left Out?

245

Replies

  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
    Lot of talk about glutes... It's is probably more useful to look at the posterior chain as a whole rather than in parts, so hamstrings, glutes, and lower back. The squat and deadlift definitely hit those areas and in the short-term that might be enough. But mid to long-term, it's not enough and posterior chain work needs to be included to continue progressing. Back Raises (roman chair or on a back raise "bench"), straight-leg deadlifts, and even hip bridges are all fine exercises. Good Mornngs are good but I'm not sure the risk is worth the reward in some cases. I know with my back problems I can no longer tolerate them.

    Abs: Most of your serious lifters do abs every lifting session. One of the guys from EliteEFS says he does about 400 reps a week. Your 4-main lifts definitely recruit your abs but doing a little extra ab work is beneficial.
    How is this possible exactly? I'm not saying that it's not, but which of your exercises seem to hit your calves sufficiently?

    I know "feel" isn't always the best indicator, but I just don't see how the calves are sufficiently recruited in the big four. Or is it just a matter of lifting weight that is heavy enough (say, on the deadlift) to where they would come into play? I only really get the feeling I'm using them when I make the mistake of rocking forward on the squat and deads.

    Dude, I wish I had an answer for you on this one but I really don't. All I know, is that my calves look great and they're always tight as hell. I really have to stretch them well after every lower body session and I actually have to stretch them before I do cardio. I can only assume that they somehow get recruited via the squat and deadlift. I'm guessing that they must fire at the start of the concentric portion of the squat and deadlift but I really don't know.
    hat being said- I do 4 different variety of squats and walking lunges- and BB bridge lifts. I <3 butt/leg work. LOL

    And it shows too.
  • jacksonpt
    jacksonpt Posts: 10,413 Member

    I think it's useful because people ask about lifting- we always toss out COMPOUND LIFTS.

    Which YES- it's great- it's a wonderful place to start- and really you'll see some tremendous gains- but ultimately there needs to be some supplemental work.

    So when people say things like, "start lifting heavy and focus on compound lifts" that doesn't include things like rows, chins, dips, lunges? Do people assume that means only the big 4? Assistance work doesn't have to be isolation work (which I know you know).

    .
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member

    So when people say things like, "start lifting heavy and focus on compound lifts" that doesn't include things like rows, chins, dips, lunges? Do people assume that means only the big 4? Assistance work doesn't have to be isolation work (which I know you know).

    .

    I think the difference is that assistance work, regardless of what it is, is typically done for moderate reps like 8-10, 6-10, etc. Compound lifts can also be used for volume but they are also done "heavy" like 1 to 5 reps. You typically won't do isolation work in the 1-5 rep range, not saying you can't but the general recommendation is to use those for more volume.
  • richardheath
    richardheath Posts: 1,276 Member
    In for the education.
  • FrnkLft
    FrnkLft Posts: 1,821 Member

    So when people say things like, "start lifting heavy and focus on compound lifts" that doesn't include things like rows, chins, dips, lunges? Do people assume that means only the big 4? Assistance work doesn't have to be isolation work (which I know you know).

    Sure, I've heard people talk about how even the arms are worked in the Squat. Yes, they are involved, but in no way that's even worth mentioning. Maybe racking the weight lol I've also heard people say how they don't hit their biceps directly because it's hit in the bench and OHP, which is pretty much crap.

    It's always good to talk about these things, so that people keep some perspective. "Squat is king" is true, but squat isn't everything.
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
    Sure, I've heard people talk about how even the arms are worked in the Squat. Yes, they are involved, but in no way that's even worth mentioning. Maybe racking the weight lol I've also heard people say how they don't hit their biceps directly because it's hit in the bench and OHP, which is pretty much crap.

    It's always good to talk about these things, so that people keep some perspective. "Squat is king" is true, but squat isn't everything.

    Somewhat off topic. One study actually showed that chin-ups (palms facing you) had the largest peak contraction on the biceps, better than EZ Bar or Straight Bar curls.

    Squatting isn't king, sex is king.
  • myprana
    myprana Posts: 66
    In for the education.

    Or confusion. Every time I look up strength programs it's overwhelming. So I keep it simple with push ups and assisted pull ups. Maybe one day I'll get motivated to do more..
  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,525 Member
    So when people say things like, "start lifting heavy and focus on compound lifts" that doesn't include things like rows, chins, dips, lunges? Do people assume that means only the big 4? Assistance work doesn't have to be isolation work (which I know you know).
    no it doesn't- which is why I think actually this thread is kind of great. We were talking about other work earlier- and I realized while I DO do a lot of compound lifting- I do quiet a bit of supplemental work- more than I thought I did. Once I really wrote out what I did or included in my routine.

    I think it's useful to know that as a beginner- the big 4 are the focus- but as you get stronger- and are getting more aggressive about training- you can add those supplemental's in to the workout.
    Sure, I've heard people talk about how even the arms are worked in the Squat. Yes, they are involved, but in no way that's even worth mentioning. Maybe racking the weight lol I've also heard people say how they don't hit their biceps directly because it's hit in the bench and OHP, which is pretty much crap.

    It's always good to talk about these things, so that people keep some perspective. "Squat is king" is true, but squat isn't everything.
    do some front squats... or zercher squats.... or do a front squat and let go of the bar- just put your arms out front. it's hella arm's.

    OHS is great too. I <3 over heads- they are just- sigh. crazy.awesome.good.
    Somewhat off topic. One study actually showed that chin-ups (palms facing you) had the largest peak contraction on the biceps, better than EZ Bar or Straight Bar curls.

    Squatting isn't king, sex is king.
    yup- straight up cheater form chin's- best bang for buck for biceps.

    Body weight curls- TRX or Smith machine- HOLY FRIGGING cow. burn- seriously- I do them 1 maybe 2 times a month. I die. A lot.

    LOL

    And yes- sex is king.
    Or confusion. Every time I look up strength programs it's overwhelming. So I keep it simple with push ups and assisted pull ups. Maybe one day I'll get motivated to do more..

    no legs? really? and pull ups/push ups barely touch strength workouts.

    Squat
    Dead lift
    Overhead press
    Bench
    Pull ups/Rows/Lats.

    bam- there you go. It's really NOT that complicated. Seriously. and if you don't know- just ask.
    And it shows too.

    why spank you- spank you very much ;)
  • FrnkLft
    FrnkLft Posts: 1,821 Member

    Or confusion. Every time I look up strength programs it's overwhelming. So I keep it simple with push ups and assisted pull ups. Maybe one day I'll get motivated to do more..

    What JoRoca said. Just look up Stronglifts 5x5 and get started, seriously, that's all you have to do. The program is SO simple, and it has you doing more than enough with the absolute basics. It even has rows which works out nearly all the muscles in that we have talked about in this topic (just realized that, wow :). 0% controversy or fluff.

    Once you've done it a bit, you'll be much more comfortable with all this, and just ask any questions you like on the forums about specifics.

    It's kinda like running. All you need is a pair of shoes, some time, and some carbs lol Anything more you do from there is fluff and not worth the attention of anyone who's just beginning.
  • mustgetmuscles1
    mustgetmuscles1 Posts: 3,346 Member
    Neat topic.

    I think there is major difference between a lift that engages a muscle and a lift that works a muscle through its ROM and still has resistance during the peak of contraction.
  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,525 Member
    holy lat's batman!
  • juliewatkin
    juliewatkin Posts: 764 Member

    Abs. Abs are used to help stabalize your core on most lifts, but they act to keep things stable, they are not truely movers.

    Stabilizing is what the abs are meant to do. Try an exercise called Front Squat Holds. Basically just load a bar heavy, unrack in a Front Squat and just hold it while standing upright. Your abs will be more sore than any other exercise. It's worked immensely when you're under the bar during Squats.

    I love these. They can be very crushing.
  • FrnkLft
    FrnkLft Posts: 1,821 Member
    So, great video here about the front squat... I mean I guess... I really couldn't hear anything... :love: :drinker:

    http://youtu.be/d0Rqz7wptJo

    untitled_zps6aa98438.jpg
  • jonnythan
    jonnythan Posts: 10,161 Member
    They're the Big Four, not the Big Everything.
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member

    why spank you- spank you very much ;)

    OMG Jo, you are going to side track this thread, or at least side-track me. LOL
  • richardheath
    richardheath Posts: 1,276 Member

    What JoRoca said. Just look up Stronglifts 5x5 and get started, seriously, that's all you have to do. The program is SO simple, and it has you doing more than enough with the absolute basics. It even has rows which works out nearly all the muscles in that we have talked about in this topic (just realized that, wow :). 0% controversy or fluff.

    Once you've done it a bit, you'll be much more comfortable with all this, and just ask any questions you like on the forums about specifics.

    It's kinda like running. All you need is a pair of shoes, some time, and some carbs lol Anything more you do from there is fluff and not worth the attention of anyone who's just beginning.

    Yeah - that was what I did. I used a beginners program and just followed that. As time progresses, and I get comfortable with those lifts, I can start to think about adding more, or transitioning to an intermediates program (not ready for that yet!).
  • FrnkLft
    FrnkLft Posts: 1,821 Member

    OMG Jo, you are going to side track this thread, or at least side-track me. LOL

    It's already over as far as I'm concerned. Another thread successfully ruined by thinking too hard about women & squats...
  • mustgetmuscles1
    mustgetmuscles1 Posts: 3,346 Member

    Yeah - that was what I did. I used a beginners program and just followed that. As time progresses, and I get comfortable with those lifts, I can start to think about adding more, or transitioning to an intermediates program (not ready for that yet!).

    Cant really go wrong with SL5x5 but there are other programs out there that add in what it is missing even for the true beginner.

    http://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/jason-blaha-ice-cream-fitness-5x5-novice-workout
  • jacksonpt
    jacksonpt Posts: 10,413 Member

    Yeah - that was what I did. I used a beginners program and just followed that. As time progresses, and I get comfortable with those lifts, I can start to think about adding more, or transitioning to an intermediates program (not ready for that yet!).

    Sounds like you're on the right track. Get comfortable with the basics first, then add in other work as needed.
  • mikemc620
    mikemc620 Posts: 129 Member
    Lot of talk about glutes... It's is probably more useful to look at the posterior chain as a whole rather than in parts, so hamstrings, glutes, and lower back. The squat and deadlift definitely hit those areas and in the short-term that might be enough. But mid to long-term, it's not enough and posterior chain work needs to be included to continue progressing. Back Raises (roman chair or on a back raise "bench"), straight-leg deadlifts, and even hip bridges are all fine exercises. Good Mornngs are good but I'm not sure the risk is worth the reward in some cases. I know with my back problems I can no longer tolerate them.

    Do you guys know how you would be able to do back raises without equipment designed to do them, or is that exactly what a good morning is for? I hope that there is actually another way because my back does not like me doing good mornings.
  • FrnkLft
    FrnkLft Posts: 1,821 Member

    Do you guys know how you would be able to do back raises without equipment designed to do them, or is that exactly what a good morning is for? I hope that there is actually another way because my back does not like me doing good mornings.

    Yes, but it requires two adjustable benches, duct tape and some scissors.
  • mikemc620
    mikemc620 Posts: 129 Member

    Yes, but it requires two adjustable benches, duct tape and some scissors.

    I guess that I am just going to continue with the DL and the occasional SLDL until I can't lift any more then worry about it.
  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,525 Member
    super mans?

    Bird dogs.

    and yes- any lifting thread can be derailed by a woman and her glutes. I'm strangely comfortable with it- regardless of if they are my glutes or not ;) wink wink nudge nudge.
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member

    Do you guys know how you would be able to do back raises without equipment designed to do them, or is that exactly what a good morning is for? I hope that there is actually another way because my back does not like me doing good mornings.

    Lat pulldown machine and a moveable flat bench. Put your legs on the bench and feet under the lat pulldown support. It's actually closer to a glute ham raise which is actually very good too.
  • OHP is a big 4?
    I'd put pullups or dips in there way before OHP, they're right up there next to deads and squats.
  • quellybelly
    quellybelly Posts: 827 Member
    bump to read for later!
  • FrnkLft
    FrnkLft Posts: 1,821 Member

    Lat pulldown machine and a moveable flat bench. Put your legs on the bench and feet under the lat pulldown support. It's actually closer to a glute ham raise which is actually very good too.

    Brilliant.
  • mustgetmuscles1
    mustgetmuscles1 Posts: 3,346 Member
    OHP is a big 4?
    I'd put pullups or dips in there way before OHP, they're right up there next to deads and squats.

    I think you could trade the deadlifts for the bent over barbell row (BLASPHEMY!!!! I know.) and hit almost everything with 4 main lifts.
  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,525 Member

    Lat pulldown machine and a moveable flat bench. Put your legs on the bench and feet under the lat pulldown support. It's actually closer to a glute ham raise which is actually very good too.

    I just shove my knees on the bench as is. I dont' bother dragging a bench- it would be too much work.

    I've used a stepper thing and a rubber mat and shoved them under the stair plate form things for the Assisted pull up machine- works okay- the lat pull down knee pads work moare better though.

    OHP is a big 4?
    I'd put pullups or dips in there way before OHP, they're right up there next to deads and squats.

    yes- it is.

    And I'm a HUGE fan of pull ups- it's pushing the boarders of compound- but technically it isn't a compound.

    But you'll never catch me NOT doing them in a work out. :D
  • MisterDerpington
    MisterDerpington Posts: 604 Member

    I think you could trade the deadlifts for the bent over barbell row (BLASPHEMY!!!! I know.) and hit almost everything with 4 main lifts.

    Except, you know, the lower back.