Big 4 Lifts, What Muscles are Left Out?

FrnkLft

So for someone doing SS, what isolation exercises would you add in?

Well SS covers this in the programming secion. I do know that SS mentions doing chin ups and back extensions, and that's just as well. That will hit most of the muscles listed here as missing. He suggests doing the chins:

Workout A:
Squat
Press
Deadlift/Power Clean

Workout B:
Squat
Bench
Back Extensions (Roman Chair)
Chinups/Pullups

bizco

I think the glutes are often forgotten. They get some work during deadlifts but not nearly enough. Unless you're doing hip thrusts and glute bridges, you're doing yourself a disservice.

FrnkLft

Don't forget that programs such as SS are novice programs, and are most likely not meant to be comprehensive! Oh, and doesn't Rippetoe recommend doing cleans in his program? Those will def hit the calves :-P

My calves are in really good shape and I haven't done a calf raise in a good year or so probably, just Squat, Deadlift, sometimes SLDL, and sprints. Kinda' interesting that Rip has a "beginner" program yet puts a very technical lift in the program. A little contradictory and he's received a bit of crap about that from his peers.

How is this possible exactly? I'm not saying that it's not, but which of your exercises seem to hit your calves sufficiently?

I know "feel" isn't always the best indicator, but I just don't see how the calves are sufficiently recruited in the big four. Or is it just a matter of lifting weight that is heavy enough (say, on the deadlift) to where they would come into play? I only really get the feeling I'm using them when I make the mistake of rocking forward on the squat and deads.

I think the glutes are often forgotten. They get some work during deadlifts but not nearly enough. Unless you're doing hip thrusts and glute bridges, you're doing yourself a disservice.

Just wait untill the weight gets heavy. And I don't mean heavy for you right now, I mean, heavy for your bodyweight. You'll feel you glutes on the deadlift and squats for sure.

That said, no shame in some extra compound glute work, for sure.

BusyRaeNOTBusty

I think the glutes are often forgotten. They get some work during deadlifts but not nearly enough. Unless you're doing hip thrusts and glute bridges, you're doing yourself a disservice.

Parallel squats seem to work my glutes enough.

MisterDerpington

Biceps. I know they are used to help lower the weight on pressing movements, and that they are present whenever wrist rotation is in play, but they really don't get worked unless you're doing rows (another compound lift, sure).

Do a 1RM Bench Press and you'll see just how much biceps are used. Also, a lot of programs do include Rows or Chin-Ups which directly work the biceps.

Abs. Abs are used to help stabalize your core on most lifts, but they act to keep things stable, they are not truely movers.

Stabilizing is what the abs are meant to do. Try an exercise called Front Squat Holds. Basically just load a bar heavy, unrack in a Front Squat and just hold it while standing upright. Your abs will be more sore than any other exercise. It's worked immensely when you're under the bar during Squats.

Calves. Worse than abs lol All but completely neglected.

If you're looking for hypertrophy I can see your point,but once again, they're used quite a bit for stabilizing.

Side & Rear Delts. Again, they are used (and if you're rowing they really come into play depending on your form), but the front delts get all the glory.

Lats. They're like the biceps of the back. They help in lowering overhead loads and stablization, but they don't get much love otherwise.

Again almost all programs recommend an upper body pull of sometime (even in Starting Strength, Chin-Ups are pretty much always added very early on).

MisterDerpington

this is a topic I will keep watching :drinker:

I agree with all this. This is why I personally won't do any Stronglifts, SS, or any of the Compound Lift only workouts. I don't believe they hit all the muscle groups and definitely don't get you moving in all planes of motion. Don't get me wrong, I do all the Compound Lifts but also include a bit of isolation work. If you don't get too carried away with the isolation work (as I'm sometimes guility of-LOL) I think it's a good balance.

So for someone doing SS, what isolation exercises would you add in?

If you're doing true SS with Power Cleans, then add Chin-Ups. If you can't do bodyweight chin-ups, your substitute will depend on the equipment you have. If you have a door frame pull up bar, you can do negatives. If you have quality bands available you can use them to assist you in chin-ups or a weight-assisted chin-up machine. Lastly there's lat-pulldowns with the supine (chin-up) grip.

EDIT: Someone else mentioned Dips, which is a really good exercise. But Rip does mention that your Bench should be notably improved before adding in Dips.

erickirb

Good conversations here.

I agree with others about pulls, there may be some but I like for every vertical push to have a vertical pull, for every horizontal push a horizontal pull.

So If I do flat bench, my routine will have either DB rows or Pendlay Rows. If I do OHP I do chin-ups or pull-ups. If I do decline bench press, I would do upright row as the pull.

I do a push/pull split now, so the offsetting pull to the push can be done in a different workout.

cwolfman13

I think the glutes are often forgotten. They get some work during deadlifts but not nearly enough. Unless you're doing hip thrusts and glute bridges, you're doing yourself a disservice.

<<<<squats = dude donk....

MisterDerpington

ITT: People who think programs focused on the Big 4 only use the Big 4.

JoRocka

I'm not trying to be an *kitten* (it just happens naturally most of the time), but I don't understand the point of this thread.

The big 4 aren't meant to hit every muscle, they are meant to build functional strength. And the idea of muscle being worked sufficiently/insufficiently will depend largely on goals and progress. Furthermore, a lot of the secondary/stabilizing muscles are worked more or less depending on on the individual's and how conscious they are to engage those muscle. Abs can play a huge role in deads, lats in the bench, calves in deadlifts (especially stiff legged deads), etc. But if a person's form is off or whatever, those muscles may well get very little work.

That said, speaking VERY generally, I think a pull-up/row movement is missing.

I think it's useful because people ask about lifting- we always toss out COMPOUND LIFTS.

Which YES- it's great- it's a wonderful place to start- and really you'll see some tremendous gains- but ultimately there needs to be some supplemental work.

I think the glutes are often forgotten. They get some work during deadlifts but not nearly enough. Unless you're doing hip thrusts and glute bridges, you're doing yourself a disservice.

huh?? squats and deads are all about dat *kitten*

that being said- I do 4 different variety of squats and walking lunges- and BB bridge lifts. I butt/leg work. LOL

JNick77

Lot of talk about glutes... It's is probably more useful to look at the posterior chain as a whole rather than in parts, so hamstrings, glutes, and lower back. The squat and deadlift definitely hit those areas and in the short-term that might be enough. But mid to long-term, it's not enough and posterior chain work needs to be included to continue progressing. Back Raises (roman chair or on a back raise "bench"), straight-leg deadlifts, and even hip bridges are all fine exercises. Good Mornngs are good but I'm not sure the risk is worth the reward in some cases. I know with my back problems I can no longer tolerate them.

Abs: Most of your serious lifters do abs every lifting session. One of the guys from EliteEFS says he does about 400 reps a week. Your 4-main lifts definitely recruit your abs but doing a little extra ab work is beneficial.

How is this possible exactly? I'm not saying that it's not, but which of your exercises seem to hit your calves sufficiently?

I know "feel" isn't always the best indicator, but I just don't see how the calves are sufficiently recruited in the big four. Or is it just a matter of lifting weight that is heavy enough (say, on the deadlift) to where they would come into play? I only really get the feeling I'm using them when I make the mistake of rocking forward on the squat and deads.

Dude, I wish I had an answer for you on this one but I really don't. All I know, is that my calves look great and they're always tight as hell. I really have to stretch them well after every lower body session and I actually have to stretch them before I do cardio. I can only assume that they somehow get recruited via the squat and deadlift. I'm guessing that they must fire at the start of the concentric portion of the squat and deadlift but I really don't know.

hat being said- I do 4 different variety of squats and walking lunges- and BB bridge lifts. I butt/leg work. LOL

And it shows too.

jacksonpt

I'm not trying to be an *kitten* (it just happens naturally most of the time), but I don't understand the point of this thread.

The big 4 aren't meant to hit every muscle, they are meant to build functional strength. And the idea of muscle being worked sufficiently/insufficiently will depend largely on goals and progress. Furthermore, a lot of the secondary/stabilizing muscles are worked more or less depending on on the individual's and how conscious they are to engage those muscle. Abs can play a huge role in deads, lats in the bench, calves in deadlifts (especially stiff legged deads), etc. But if a person's form is off or whatever, those muscles may well get very little work.

That said, speaking VERY generally, I think a pull-up/row movement is missing.

I think it's useful because people ask about lifting- we always toss out COMPOUND LIFTS.

Which YES- it's great- it's a wonderful place to start- and really you'll see some tremendous gains- but ultimately there needs to be some supplemental work.

So when people say things like, "start lifting heavy and focus on compound lifts" that doesn't include things like rows, chins, dips, lunges? Do people assume that means only the big 4? Assistance work doesn't have to be isolation work (which I know you know).

.

JNick77

I'm not trying to be an *kitten* (it just happens naturally most of the time), but I don't understand the point of this thread.

The big 4 aren't meant to hit every muscle, they are meant to build functional strength. And the idea of muscle being worked sufficiently/insufficiently will depend largely on goals and progress. Furthermore, a lot of the secondary/stabilizing muscles are worked more or less depending on on the individual's and how conscious they are to engage those muscle. Abs can play a huge role in deads, lats in the bench, calves in deadlifts (especially stiff legged deads), etc. But if a person's form is off or whatever, those muscles may well get very little work.

That said, speaking VERY generally, I think a pull-up/row movement is missing.

I think it's useful because people ask about lifting- we always toss out COMPOUND LIFTS.

Which YES- it's great- it's a wonderful place to start- and really you'll see some tremendous gains- but ultimately there needs to be some supplemental work.

So when people say things like, "start lifting heavy and focus on compound lifts" that doesn't include things like rows, chins, dips, lunges? Do people assume that means only the big 4? Assistance work doesn't have to be isolation work (which I know you know).

.

I think the difference is that assistance work, regardless of what it is, is typically done for moderate reps like 8-10, 6-10, etc. Compound lifts can also be used for volume but they are also done "heavy" like 1 to 5 reps. You typically won't do isolation work in the 1-5 rep range, not saying you can't but the general recommendation is to use those for more volume.

richardheath

In for the education.

FrnkLft

I'm not trying to be an *kitten* (it just happens naturally most of the time), but I don't understand the point of this thread.

The big 4 aren't meant to hit every muscle, they are meant to build functional strength. And the idea of muscle being worked sufficiently/insufficiently will depend largely on goals and progress. Furthermore, a lot of the secondary/stabilizing muscles are worked more or less depending on on the individual's and how conscious they are to engage those muscle. Abs can play a huge role in deads, lats in the bench, calves in deadlifts (especially stiff legged deads), etc. But if a person's form is off or whatever, those muscles may well get very little work.

That said, speaking VERY generally, I think a pull-up/row movement is missing.

I think it's useful because people ask about lifting- we always toss out COMPOUND LIFTS.

Which YES- it's great- it's a wonderful place to start- and really you'll see some tremendous gains- but ultimately there needs to be some supplemental work.

So when people say things like, "start lifting heavy and focus on compound lifts" that doesn't include things like rows, chins, dips, lunges? Do people assume that means only the big 4? Assistance work doesn't have to be isolation work (which I know you know).

Sure, I've heard people talk about how even the arms are worked in the Squat. Yes, they are involved, but in no way that's even worth mentioning. Maybe racking the weight lol I've also heard people say how they don't hit their biceps directly because it's hit in the bench and OHP, which is pretty much crap.

It's always good to talk about these things, so that people keep some perspective. "Squat is king" is true, but squat isn't everything.

JNick77

Sure, I've heard people talk about how even the arms are worked in the Squat. Yes, they are involved, but in no way that's even worth mentioning. Maybe racking the weight lol I've also heard people say how they don't hit their biceps directly because it's hit in the bench and OHP, which is pretty much crap.

It's always good to talk about these things, so that people keep some perspective. "Squat is king" is true, but squat isn't everything.

Somewhat off topic. One study actually showed that chin-ups (palms facing you) had the largest peak contraction on the biceps, better than EZ Bar or Straight Bar curls.

Squatting isn't king, sex is king.

myprana

In for the education.

Or confusion. Every time I look up strength programs it's overwhelming. So I keep it simple with push ups and assisted pull ups. Maybe one day I'll get motivated to do more..

JoRocka

So when people say things like, "start lifting heavy and focus on compound lifts" that doesn't include things like rows, chins, dips, lunges? Do people assume that means only the big 4? Assistance work doesn't have to be isolation work (which I know you know).

no it doesn't- which is why I think actually this thread is kind of great. We were talking about other work earlier- and I realized while I DO do a lot of compound lifting- I do quiet a bit of supplemental work- more than I thought I did. Once I really wrote out what I did or included in my routine.

I think it's useful to know that as a beginner- the big 4 are the focus- but as you get stronger- and are getting more aggressive about training- you can add those supplemental's in to the workout.

Sure, I've heard people talk about how even the arms are worked in the Squat. Yes, they are involved, but in no way that's even worth mentioning. Maybe racking the weight lol I've also heard people say how they don't hit their biceps directly because it's hit in the bench and OHP, which is pretty much crap.

It's always good to talk about these things, so that people keep some perspective. "Squat is king" is true, but squat isn't everything.

do some front squats... or zercher squats.... or do a front squat and let go of the bar- just put your arms out front. it's hella arm's.

OHS is great too. I over heads- they are just- sigh. crazy.awesome.good.

Somewhat off topic. One study actually showed that chin-ups (palms facing you) had the largest peak contraction on the biceps, better than EZ Bar or Straight Bar curls.

Squatting isn't king, sex is king.

yup- straight up cheater form chin's- best bang for buck for biceps.

Body weight curls- TRX or Smith machine- HOLY FRIGGING cow. burn- seriously- I do them 1 maybe 2 times a month. I die. A lot.

LOL

And yes- sex is king.

Or confusion. Every time I look up strength programs it's overwhelming. So I keep it simple with push ups and assisted pull ups. Maybe one day I'll get motivated to do more..

no legs? really? and pull ups/push ups barely touch strength workouts.

Squat
Dead lift
Overhead press
Bench
Pull ups/Rows/Lats.

bam- there you go. It's really NOT that complicated. Seriously. and if you don't know- just ask.

And it shows too.

why spank you- spank you very much

FrnkLft

In for the education.

Or confusion. Every time I look up strength programs it's overwhelming. So I keep it simple with push ups and assisted pull ups. Maybe one day I'll get motivated to do more..

What JoRoca said. Just look up Stronglifts 5x5 and get started, seriously, that's all you have to do. The program is SO simple, and it has you doing more than enough with the absolute basics. It even has rows which works out nearly all the muscles in that we have talked about in this topic (just realized that, wow . 0% controversy or fluff.

Once you've done it a bit, you'll be much more comfortable with all this, and just ask any questions you like on the forums about specifics.

It's kinda like running. All you need is a pair of shoes, some time, and some carbs lol Anything more you do from there is fluff and not worth the attention of anyone who's just beginning.

mustgetmuscles1

Neat topic.

I think there is major difference between a lift that engages a muscle and a lift that works a muscle through its ROM and still has resistance during the peak of contraction.