Big 4 Lifts, What Muscles are Left Out?

LoudmouthLee

Personally, Here's what I do to hit most...

Deadlift
Squat
Power Clean
Strict Press
High Pull (or Row)
Bench
and C&J (or Snatch at a lower weight)

These lifts obviously neglect calves (I climb stairs for cardio), but your core is stabilizing everything you do. You shouldn't ignore your core work, but remember you're keeping your abs tight during these lifts for a reason.

erickirb

But maybe, just maybe, biceps and lats weren't meant to get as much development attention as we sometimes give them. There's an aesthetic desire for big biceps and wide lats, but is it that important really? If you are doing really good on the 4 lifts you mention, pushing and pulling significant weight with ease, couldn't you also say that biceps and lats are probably as developed as they need to be? Anything more is just vanity.

I think the back would need to be worked to compensate for pushing motions of the other upper body exercises. Doing a lot of benching (push movements) can shorten the pec muscles, pulling the shoulders slightly forward if the back muscles are not strong enough to balance that by pulling the shoulders back to the proper position. This also has posture come into play, not just balance between push/pull muscles, though it does help.

I do a **** ton on my back and still have a bit of the shoulders rounding forward, enough so I have to pay attention to posture and stretch the pecs more ofter. If I didn't work my back I'm sure this issue would have caused me problems, more than a some muscles in my mid/upper back firing constantly (feels a lot like a knot, but wont go away very easily)

No_Finish_Line

But maybe, just maybe, biceps and lats weren't meant to get as much development attention as we sometimes give them. There's an aesthetic desire for big biceps and wide lats, but is it that important really? If you are doing really good on the 4 lifts you mention, pushing and pulling significant weight with ease, couldn't you also say that biceps and lats are probably as developed as they need to be? Anything more is just vanity.

well you could make the same argument that its all vanity.

if its about being physically fit, i certainly wouldn't limit myself to four lifts, or only lifting.

RECowgill

But maybe, just maybe, biceps and lats weren't meant to get as much development attention as we sometimes give them. There's an aesthetic desire for big biceps and wide lats, but is it that important really? If you are doing really good on the 4 lifts you mention, pushing and pulling significant weight with ease, couldn't you also say that biceps and lats are probably as developed as they need to be? Anything more is just vanity.

well you could make the same argument that its all vanity.

if its about being physically fit, i certainly wouldn't limit myself to four lifts, or only lifting.

So back to the OP post then, I guess throw in pullups and get the lat/bicep work you need to make it all more balanced. I think the other muscle groups he pointed out, abs, calves and shoulders would get worked enough as is. Especially if OHP is changed to arnold press.

JoRocka

i'd say lats is the biggest muslce to missout. if you substituted pull ups for dead lifts i think it would be more well rounded

How about just add pull-ups/chin-ups? Ya know, since lower back needs to be worked too. I know it's not a vanity muscle, so people want to ignore it, but it's important.

Deadlifts work the entire body, not just lower back. If you do a deadlift right you engage the entire body, every muscle group or nearly so. Deadlifts are too important to not do.

Yeah I totally agree. I would never remove any of the big 4, especially for pullups. It's definitely a significant and functional compound upper body movement, but not at the expense of deads.

Dibs. That will be known as the FrnkLftian Squat. I'm so proud... drinker

I do a walking lunge- with a releve (on the toes) one leg lift thing. It's stupid. I hate them- I do them forward and backwards. They are hard. But it's my ONLY calf work.

I really just don't care- I get enough out of dancing- sprinting and those once a week. It's just not that serious. I have more concern for getting bigger hammy's than calves LOL- my legs already barely fit in women's boots.

I concur- I would NEVER take out one of those 4. EVER. I might not work one as much (Ahem Bench/OHP) but I wouldn't take it out- I would simply add to it. I tend to go through a 2-3 week rotation on what I heavily emphasize as a supplement on a weekly basis.

mustgetmuscles1

But maybe, just maybe, biceps and lats weren't meant to get as much development attention as we sometimes give them. There's an aesthetic desire for big biceps and wide lats, but is it that important really? If you are doing really good on the 4 lifts you mention, pushing and pulling significant weight with ease, couldn't you also say that biceps and lats are probably as developed as they need to be? Anything more is just vanity.

well you could make the same argument that its all vanity.

if its about being physically fit, i certainly wouldn't limit myself to four lifts, or only lifting.

A little off topic but I would argue the lats are one of, if not the strongest, muscles for core stability. Connecting your shoulders to your lower back and keeps your back from rounding.

sluggz

But maybe, just maybe, biceps and lats weren't meant to get as much development attention as we sometimes give them. There's an aesthetic desire for big biceps and wide lats, but is it that important really? If you are doing really good on the 4 lifts you mention, pushing and pulling significant weight with ease, couldn't you also say that biceps and lats are probably as developed as they need to be? Anything more is just vanity.

well you could make the same argument that its all vanity.

if its about being physically fit, i certainly wouldn't limit myself to four lifts, or only lifting.

A little off topic but I would argue the lats are one of, if not the strongest, muscles for core stability. Connecting your shoulders to your lower back and keeps your back from rounding.

agree with this last statement. If the lats aren't engaged in any of the big 4, you're not doing them as well as you could be.

FrnkLft

Dibs. That will be known as the FrnkLftian Squat. I'm so proud... drinker

I do a walking lunge- with a releve (on the toes) one leg lift thing. It's stupid. I hate them- I do them forward and backwards. They are hard. But it's my ONLY calf work.

[/quote]

Hmmm, you should really consider doing the FrnkLftian Squat. I can't recommend it highly enough. Maybe I should add a good morning while on the toes and a crunch in the hole, really hit all the important areas...

MisterDerpington

But maybe, just maybe, biceps and lats weren't meant to get as much development attention as we sometimes give them. There's an aesthetic desire for big biceps and wide lats, but is it that important really? If you are doing really good on the 4 lifts you mention, pushing and pulling significant weight with ease, couldn't you also say that biceps and lats are probably as developed as they need to be? Anything more is just vanity.

well you could make the same argument that its all vanity.

if its about being physically fit, i certainly wouldn't limit myself to four lifts, or only lifting.

A little off topic but I would argue the lats are one of, if not the strongest, muscles for core stability. Connecting your shoulders to your lower back and keeps your back from rounding.

Yup. And that's why most programs have an upper body pull (especially a vertical pull like a Chin-Up). Those are really the best additions and I'd consider Chin-Ups and the rest "The Big 5". It works every single muscle. The rest (i.e. isolation lifts) are just for helping weak spots (in aesthetics or strength). But those 5 exercises can take you a long way in my opinion.

JoRocka

agree with this last statement. If the lats aren't engaged in any of the big 4, you're not doing them as well as you could be.

I think this is a really important thing to remember- the scapula MUST be protracted while dead lifting- and I feel that as deeply in my back as super wide grip pull ups.

You MUST engage your back to keep your chest up. It surprises me to know end how people buckle half way up- and I forget that people- women especially tend to forget that part.

sluggz

agree with this last statement. If the lats aren't engaged in any of the big 4, you're not doing them as well as you could be.

I think this is a really important thing to remember- the scapula MUST be protracted while dead lifting- and I feel that as deeply in my back as super wide grip pull ups.

You MUST engage your back to keep your chest up. It surprises me to know end how people buckle half way up- and I forget that people- women especially tend to forget that part.

and this same stabilization should be used to create a shelf for squats... same for bench... same for OHP.

JoRocka

agree with this last statement. If the lats aren't engaged in any of the big 4, you're not doing them as well as you could be.

I think this is a really important thing to remember- the scapula MUST be protracted while dead lifting- and I feel that as deeply in my back as super wide grip pull ups.

You MUST engage your back to keep your chest up. It surprises me to know end how people buckle half way up- and I forget that people- women especially tend to forget that part.

and this same stabilization should be used to create a shelf for squats... same for bench... same for OHP.

I find it weakest for my bench and OHP. I'm definitely legs-centric. I can feel it with OHP and bench- but it's just NOT the same feeling. But yes- if you aren't using those lats to get you stable and ready to press- something's not quiet right.

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3foldchord

Good post! I have been wondering about this with the 5x5 program.

I so S L 5x5, but change it to hit other muscles I think I need work on, or skip stuff that I think I am fine skipping to work on other stuff(because I inly have so much time in my day)...it's like customized, flexible Strong Lifts.

I add wrist curls. Holding a small weight in my hand and lifting my hand UP. I play conga drums and those top of the forearm muscles get so sore!!
I doubt many people,add those muscles in to their weight program, though.

I like doing bench dips. My goal is to do full body dips.
I really need to research more which muscles are needed for which lifts or which day to day functions.

No_Finish_Line

if it weren't for flys i honestly dont think my chest would grow at all lol

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Chevy_Quest

bump because I am learning

sluggz

I so S L 5x5, but change it to hit other muscles I think I need work on, or skip stuff that I think I am fine skipping to work on other stuff(because I inly have so much time in my day)...it's like customized, flexible Strong Lifts.

I hope you're not skipping the main lifts in order to do something like wrist curls... not that you cant do wrist curls, but do them after the big lifts. The main lifts are about training economy, if there's one thing to take away from this post - IMHO - its that the big 4 are "full body" lifts. You can hit a vast majority of musculature in one set. That's training economy (and time economy!) Do whatever isolation work you want/need, but AFTER doing the compound work.

3foldchord

I so S L 5x5, but change it to hit other muscles I think I need work on, or skip stuff that I think I am fine skipping to work on other stuff(because I inly have so much time in my day)...it's like customized, flexible Strong Lifts.

I hope you're not skipping the main lifts in order to do something like wrist curls... not that you cant do wrist curls, but do them after the big lifts. The main lifts are about training economy, if there's one thing to take away from this post - IMHO - its that the big 4 are "full body" lifts. You can hit a vast majority of musculature in one set. That's training economy (and time economy!) Do whatever isolation work you want/need, but AFTER doing the compound work.

Thanks.
I always do squats, and change up the other lifts. I can,t do more than 2 of the main lifts a session, and only do lift twice a week. It feels super wimpy to me, but due to a couple different chronic illnesses, I get sick when I do more. (BTDT when I first started)
Like today was squats, rows, bicep curls. The next time might be squats, Bench press, wrist curls. (I am taking a break from OHP and Deadlift. I love DeadLifts, BTW)
but, you are correct is thinking. I need to learn more knowledge and when and what to lift/work. That's part of why I'm here though. Like, I have little idea what exactly you mean by training economy, I assume it,s biting multiple muscles at once, but it is something will go research now.

3foldchord

bump because I am learning

me, too

3foldchord

Still do your strong lifts, just add some isolation work also. Not too much though. Don't get carried away. Just enough. The isolation work should support your big lifts, not detract from them. Also, I think you should work on your weaknesses, not on things you're good at or strong on. If your squats are not progressing properly, focus on things that might help your squat. One thing many people ignore with the squat is hip and calf flexibility, but it's probably one of the most important aspects of properly squatting. That is just one example. So, you might decide to take up yoga, to try and add flexibility into your routines overall.

How do I know if I need help with hip or calf flexibility? And. I understand how a hip can be flexible, it,s a joint area. A calf is a calf. Do you mean the knee joint? Or the ankles?
I should do yoga. It bores the snot out of me.i tell myself to do it weekly, but it ends up more like twice a week, but that week is only every 2-3 months. I do some sciatic nerve stretches before or after I lift. Hit 41 and had to start taking care of that issue.

3foldchord

I think this is a really important thing to remember- the scapula MUST be protracted while dead lifting- and I feel that as deeply in my back as super wide grip pull ups.

You MUST engage your back to keep your chest up. It surprises me to know end how people buckle half way up- and I forget that people- women especially tend to forget that part.

I googled protracted scapula muscles, didn't find much.
Well, watched a M. rippletoe video on scapula while dead lifting.

And how could my back NOT be engaged if those are the muscles I,m using?

(Serious questions, I am trying to learn all the good info on how to lift and am not sure what you mean. I think I need pictures and a diagram...LOL)

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mustgetmuscles1

I think this is a really important thing to remember- the scapula MUST be protracted while dead lifting- and I feel that as deeply in my back as super wide grip pull ups.

You MUST engage your back to keep your chest up. It surprises me to know end how people buckle half way up- and I forget that people- women especially tend to forget that part.

I googled protracted scapula muscles, didn't find much.
Well, watched a M. rippletoe video on scapula while dead lifting.

And how could my back NOT be engaged if those are the muscles I,m using?

(Serious questions, I am trying to learn all the good info on how to lift and am not sure what you mean. I think I need pictures and a diagram...LOL)

You could look up "shoulder packing". Basically you want to get your shoulders down and back. You also want to do an "abdominal brace" at the same time and while you are at it you might want to look up flexing your pelvic floor. You can practice doing all of these at the same time while sitting at your computer.

mustgetmuscles1

Still do your strong lifts, just add some isolation work also. Not too much though. Don't get carried away. Just enough. The isolation work should support your big lifts, not detract from them. Also, I think you should work on your weaknesses, not on things you're good at or strong on. If your squats are not progressing properly, focus on things that might help your squat. One thing many people ignore with the squat is hip and calf flexibility, but it's probably one of the most important aspects of properly squatting. That is just one example. So, you might decide to take up yoga, to try and add flexibility into your routines overall.

How do I know if I need help with hip or calf flexibility? And. I understand how a hip can be flexible, it,s a joint area. A calf is a calf. Do you mean the knee joint? Or the ankles?
I should do yoga. It bores the snot out of me.i tell myself to do it weekly, but it ends up more like twice a week, but that week is only every 2-3 months. I do some sciatic nerve stretches before or after I lift. Hit 41 and had to start taking care of that issue.

Try to do this routine a couple time per week. It should really help with any mobility issues.

http://youtu.be/FSSDLDhbacc

With the calve or ankle flexibility it is called ankle dorsiflexion. Working on this can help you get lower in the squat without your heels wanting to come up.

3foldchord

On the calf, no I mean the calf. I have very tight calves. I cannot properly flex my feet at the ankles when I go down into the hole on a squat. So, that's something I need to work on. My body compensates with slightly bad form. I also have tight hips, so it's a double whammy problem. But, just knowing that gives me the ability to fix it.

Same on all the main lifts. You can look on YouTube or asking a trainer or post videos of your lifts here, and people will help you. Some people hire a trainer for a short time just for form help from time to time. It is very important.

Thanks for the explanation. I understand now. My husband has very tight calf and thigh muscles. He can't sit up with his legs out straight.

I think I'm OK On form. I am part of the ETP group, I just rarely go there.
I should take my videos and let them critique. I watch lots of videos, have my kids take vids of me, then compare them with the YouTube training videos. I Should get real feed back now, I guess.

I had a trainer for a few sessions that helped with squat form, but. I wasn't impressed with their dead lift help.

sluggz

I so S L 5x5, but change it to hit other muscles I think I need work on, or skip stuff that I think I am fine skipping to work on other stuff(because I inly have so much time in my day)...it's like customized, flexible Strong Lifts.

I hope you're not skipping the main lifts in order to do something like wrist curls... not that you cant do wrist curls, but do them after the big lifts. The main lifts are about training economy, if there's one thing to take away from this post - IMHO - its that the big 4 are "full body" lifts. You can hit a vast majority of musculature in one set. That's training economy (and time economy!) Do whatever isolation work you want/need, but AFTER doing the compound work.

Thanks.
I always do squats, and change up the other lifts. I can,t do more than 2 of the main lifts a session, and only do lift twice a week. It feels super wimpy to me, but due to a couple different chronic illnesses, I get sick when I do more. (BTDT when I first started)
Like today was squats, rows, bicep curls. The next time might be squats, Bench press, wrist curls. (I am taking a break from OHP and Deadlift. I love DeadLifts, BTW)
but, you are correct is thinking. I need to learn more knowledge and when and what to lift/work. That's part of why I'm here though. Like, I have little idea what exactly you mean by training economy, I assume it,s biting multiple muscles at once, but it is something will go research now.

Think of training economy as "bang for your buck" you get greater benefit to your whole body from doing a squat than a bicep curl.
I obviously don't know you, or your condition, and haven't done any sort of assessment of you or your overall health or abilities, but in general...
If a person was only able to lift 2 days a week, I think they would be best served by using a Squat/Bench, Deadlift/OHP split. That type of split will take them a long ways. If one was able to do more they could add in the assistance type lifts and see how it goes. (Assistance being rows, chins, dips, lunges, etc...)
That would be how one can take advantage of training economy.

I googled protracted scapula muscles, didn't find much.
Well, watched a M. rippletoe video on scapula while dead lifting.

And how could my back NOT be engaged if those are the muscles I,m using?

(Serious questions, I am trying to learn all the good info on how to lift and am not sure what you mean. I think I need pictures and a diagram...LOL)

You just squeeze your shoulder blades back and down like you are trying to get them in your back pocket. Try to maintain that tension through the lift. You should also feel your lats flare out when doing this. I think the words "Big Back" in my head when doing this. I think it's important to note that breathing into your belly then pushing out with your abs (not pulling in) will set your lower torso up for stability and tension throughout the lift. Expanding my torso was a huge difference maker for me.

3foldchord

You could look up "shoulder packing". Basically you want to get your shoulders down and back.

Ah-ha, layman's terms... I work on my getting my shoulders down and back all the time. Good to know.

You also want to do an "abdominal brace" at the same time and while you are at it you might want to look up flexing your pelvic floor. You can practice doing all of these at the same time while sitting at your computer.

Try to do this routine a couple time per week. It should really help with any mobility issues.
http://youtu.be/FSSDLDhbacc

Off to google more. TY

3foldchord

If a person was only able to lift 2 days a week, I think they would be best served by using a Squat/Bench, Deadlift/OHP split. That type of split will take them a long ways. If one was able to do more they could add in the assistance type lifts and see how it goes. (Assistance being rows, chins, dips, lunges, etc...)
That would be how one can take advantage of training economy.

Thanks. I needed to switch things up. (Gosh, I get bored easily). I,ll try that split yup suggested for the next 6 weeks, till my brain explodes and I need to switch something again.
Is the squats once a week enough? SL 5x5 has you doing them every lift day.

You just squeeze your shoulder blades back and down like you are trying to get them in your back pocket. Try to maintain that tension through the lift. You should also feel your lats flare out when doing this.

I think that sounds opposite of what I saw in the Mark Rippetoe video. Of course, I could be totally misunderstanding both of you. So much of this still seems like a foreign language.

sluggz

If a person was only able to lift 2 days a week, I think they would be best served by using a Squat/Bench, Deadlift/OHP split. That type of split will take them a long ways. If one was able to do more they could add in the assistance type lifts and see how it goes. (Assistance being rows, chins, dips, lunges, etc...)
That would be how one can take advantage of training economy.

Thanks. I needed to switch things up. (Gosh, I get bored easily). I,ll try that split yup suggested for the next 6 weeks, till my brain explodes and I need to switch something again.
Is the squats once a week enough? SL 5x5 has you doing them every lift day.

You just squeeze your shoulder blades back and down like you are trying to get them in your back pocket. Try to maintain that tension through the lift. You should also feel your lats flare out when doing this.

I think that sounds opposite of what I saw in the Mark Rippetoe video. Of course, I could be totally misunderstanding both of you. So much of this still seems like a foreign language.

stronglifts shows a split like this:

Workout A
Squat 5×5
Bench Press 5×5
Barbell Rows 5×5

Workout B
Squat 5×5
Overhead Press 5×5
Deadlift 1×5

If you can handle that, do it that way. just do it 2 days a week instead of 3. Still the same concept.