Big 4 Lifts, What Muscles are Left Out?

RECowgill

bump to watch this topic.

Even as a newbie lifter, I have also felt that I'm "missing something" in my Stronglifts routine. I've started adding in some pull up/chin up work, and will also do some dips occasionally.

I always thought SL was fine just throw in dips, pullups and pushups on top of it- the other compound upper body work. Since SL is all about the useful strength building compounds.

RECowgill

i'd say lats is the biggest muslce to missout. if you substituted pull ups for dead lifts i think it would be more well rounded

How about just add pull-ups/chin-ups? Ya know, since lower back needs to be worked too. I know it's not a vanity muscle, so people want to ignore it, but it's important.

Deadlifts work the entire body, not just lower back. If you do a deadlift right you engage the entire body, every muscle group or nearly so. Deadlifts are too important to not do.

No_Finish_Line

personally wouldn't limit myself to four exercises so adding pull ups would be fine in my book.

thought he was just wanting to keep it to four lifts and hit as much of his body as directly as possible

FrnkLft

i'd say lats is the biggest muslce to missout. if you substituted pull ups for dead lifts i think it would be more well rounded

How about just add pull-ups/chin-ups? Ya know, since lower back needs to be worked too. I know it's not a vanity muscle, so people want to ignore it, but it's important.

Deadlifts work the entire body, not just lower back. If you do a deadlift right you engage the entire body, every muscle group or nearly so. Deadlifts are too important to not do.

Yeah I totally agree. I would never remove any of the big 4, especially for pullups. It's definitely a significant and functional compound upper body movement, but not at the expense of deads.

No_Finish_Line

not arguing against dead lifts.

he was just listing what wouldn't get hit.

substitute the pull ups and it solves the problem, other then calves

FrnkLft

Well yeah, you know you might have a point. Your lower back does get worked pretty significantly on the squat, especially when the weight is bearing down on you.

Also, lol calves. Seriously, I have no idea how to work them except in isolation. Maybe getting on the tiptoes at lockout on the squat lol

Dibs. That will be known as the FrnkLftian Squat. I'm so proud... :drinker:

No_Finish_Line

plyo

FrnkLft

plyo

wut?

No_Finish_Line

ok, plyo with a weighted vest lol, is that acceptable

RECowgill

So I thought this would make for a good topic... in the following lifts, what muscles would you say are insufficiently worked?

Bench
OH Press
Deadlift
Squat

The way I see it...

Biceps. I know they are used to help lower the weight on pressing movements, and that they are present whenever wrist rotation is in play, but they really don't get worked unless you're doing rows (another compound lift, sure).

Abs. Abs are used to help stabalize your core on most lifts, but they act to keep things stable, they are not truely movers.

Calves. Worse than abs lol All but completely neglected.

Side & Rear Delts. Again, they are used (and if you're rowing they really come into play depending on your form), but the front delts get all the glory.

Lats. They're like the biceps of the back. They help in lowering overhead loads and stablization, but they don't get much love otherwise.

For some reason I'm going to engage on this hypothetical and address your original post. I'm all for steering this back to what it was supposed to be all about.

You could fix the Side and Rear delt issue by changing OH Press to Arnold press. I know that's a bit outside the scope of your statement, but given a choice between doing an OHP, military press or shoulder press, I'd say "none of the above" and choose Arnold Press. In theory, you engage all 3 parts of the shoulder. In theory, you engage your core and arms much better because of the coordinated movement involved. It's a better exercise IMO.

I always felt like I got a better core/abs workout doing deadlifts than any other isolation ab work. I don't feel like that one is lacking. Maybe it depends on the kind of deadlift, conventional deadlifts are what I know.

I also wouldn't say that calves are completely neglected when doing squats and deads. Not exactly a primary focus but to say they aren't developing some level of functional strength I think overlooks how good deads and squats are. But I'm probably not one to talk on this cause after I do my deadlifts the next thing I do usually is calf raises, so I'm a hypocrite.

I guess I agree with you on biceps and lats as being generally under worked in those 4 exercises. If I could only add one other exercise and it had to at least partially address these muscle groups I would say add in Face Pulls. They're a great all around general arm exercise, plus you work the rear delts you noted before and to a lesser extent the back. But its really a decent mini-compound movement that requires decent coordination and generally works the whole upper body, even the core and legs a bit for stabilization.

Or I guess pull-ups would make more sense for addressing biceps + lats.

But maybe, just maybe, biceps and lats weren't meant to get as much development attention as we sometimes give them. There's an aesthetic desire for big biceps and wide lats, but is it that important really? If you are doing really good on the 4 lifts you mention, pushing and pulling significant weight with ease, couldn't you also say that biceps and lats are probably as developed as they need to be? Anything more is just vanity.

LoudmouthLee

Personally, Here's what I do to hit most...

Deadlift
Squat
Power Clean
Strict Press
High Pull (or Row)
Bench
and C&J (or Snatch at a lower weight)

These lifts obviously neglect calves (I climb stairs for cardio), but your core is stabilizing everything you do. You shouldn't ignore your core work, but remember you're keeping your abs tight during these lifts for a reason.

erickirb

But maybe, just maybe, biceps and lats weren't meant to get as much development attention as we sometimes give them. There's an aesthetic desire for big biceps and wide lats, but is it that important really? If you are doing really good on the 4 lifts you mention, pushing and pulling significant weight with ease, couldn't you also say that biceps and lats are probably as developed as they need to be? Anything more is just vanity.

I think the back would need to be worked to compensate for pushing motions of the other upper body exercises. Doing a lot of benching (push movements) can shorten the pec muscles, pulling the shoulders slightly forward if the back muscles are not strong enough to balance that by pulling the shoulders back to the proper position. This also has posture come into play, not just balance between push/pull muscles, though it does help.

I do a **** ton on my back and still have a bit of the shoulders rounding forward, enough so I have to pay attention to posture and stretch the pecs more ofter. If I didn't work my back I'm sure this issue would have caused me problems, more than a some muscles in my mid/upper back firing constantly (feels a lot like a knot, but wont go away very easily)

No_Finish_Line

But maybe, just maybe, biceps and lats weren't meant to get as much development attention as we sometimes give them. There's an aesthetic desire for big biceps and wide lats, but is it that important really? If you are doing really good on the 4 lifts you mention, pushing and pulling significant weight with ease, couldn't you also say that biceps and lats are probably as developed as they need to be? Anything more is just vanity.

well you could make the same argument that its all vanity.

if its about being physically fit, i certainly wouldn't limit myself to four lifts, or only lifting.

RECowgill

But maybe, just maybe, biceps and lats weren't meant to get as much development attention as we sometimes give them. There's an aesthetic desire for big biceps and wide lats, but is it that important really? If you are doing really good on the 4 lifts you mention, pushing and pulling significant weight with ease, couldn't you also say that biceps and lats are probably as developed as they need to be? Anything more is just vanity.

well you could make the same argument that its all vanity.

if its about being physically fit, i certainly wouldn't limit myself to four lifts, or only lifting.

So back to the OP post then, I guess throw in pullups and get the lat/bicep work you need to make it all more balanced. I think the other muscle groups he pointed out, abs, calves and shoulders would get worked enough as is. Especially if OHP is changed to arnold press.

JoRocka

i'd say lats is the biggest muslce to missout. if you substituted pull ups for dead lifts i think it would be more well rounded

How about just add pull-ups/chin-ups? Ya know, since lower back needs to be worked too. I know it's not a vanity muscle, so people want to ignore it, but it's important.

Deadlifts work the entire body, not just lower back. If you do a deadlift right you engage the entire body, every muscle group or nearly so. Deadlifts are too important to not do.

Yeah I totally agree. I would never remove any of the big 4, especially for pullups. It's definitely a significant and functional compound upper body movement, but not at the expense of deads.

Dibs. That will be known as the FrnkLftian Squat. I'm so proud... drinker

I do a walking lunge- with a releve (on the toes) one leg lift thing. It's stupid. I hate them- I do them forward and backwards. They are hard. But it's my ONLY calf work.

I really just don't care- I get enough out of dancing- sprinting and those once a week. It's just not that serious. I have more concern for getting bigger hammy's than calves LOL- my legs already barely fit in women's boots.

I concur- I would NEVER take out one of those 4. EVER. I might not work one as much (Ahem Bench/OHP) but I wouldn't take it out- I would simply add to it. I tend to go through a 2-3 week rotation on what I heavily emphasize as a supplement on a weekly basis.

mustgetmuscles1

But maybe, just maybe, biceps and lats weren't meant to get as much development attention as we sometimes give them. There's an aesthetic desire for big biceps and wide lats, but is it that important really? If you are doing really good on the 4 lifts you mention, pushing and pulling significant weight with ease, couldn't you also say that biceps and lats are probably as developed as they need to be? Anything more is just vanity.

well you could make the same argument that its all vanity.

if its about being physically fit, i certainly wouldn't limit myself to four lifts, or only lifting.

A little off topic but I would argue the lats are one of, if not the strongest, muscles for core stability. Connecting your shoulders to your lower back and keeps your back from rounding.

sluggz

But maybe, just maybe, biceps and lats weren't meant to get as much development attention as we sometimes give them. There's an aesthetic desire for big biceps and wide lats, but is it that important really? If you are doing really good on the 4 lifts you mention, pushing and pulling significant weight with ease, couldn't you also say that biceps and lats are probably as developed as they need to be? Anything more is just vanity.

well you could make the same argument that its all vanity.

if its about being physically fit, i certainly wouldn't limit myself to four lifts, or only lifting.

A little off topic but I would argue the lats are one of, if not the strongest, muscles for core stability. Connecting your shoulders to your lower back and keeps your back from rounding.

agree with this last statement. If the lats aren't engaged in any of the big 4, you're not doing them as well as you could be.

FrnkLft

Dibs. That will be known as the FrnkLftian Squat. I'm so proud... drinker

I do a walking lunge- with a releve (on the toes) one leg lift thing. It's stupid. I hate them- I do them forward and backwards. They are hard. But it's my ONLY calf work.

[/quote]

Hmmm, you should really consider doing the FrnkLftian Squat. I can't recommend it highly enough. Maybe I should add a good morning while on the toes and a crunch in the hole, really hit all the important areas...

MisterDerpington

But maybe, just maybe, biceps and lats weren't meant to get as much development attention as we sometimes give them. There's an aesthetic desire for big biceps and wide lats, but is it that important really? If you are doing really good on the 4 lifts you mention, pushing and pulling significant weight with ease, couldn't you also say that biceps and lats are probably as developed as they need to be? Anything more is just vanity.

well you could make the same argument that its all vanity.

if its about being physically fit, i certainly wouldn't limit myself to four lifts, or only lifting.

A little off topic but I would argue the lats are one of, if not the strongest, muscles for core stability. Connecting your shoulders to your lower back and keeps your back from rounding.

Yup. And that's why most programs have an upper body pull (especially a vertical pull like a Chin-Up). Those are really the best additions and I'd consider Chin-Ups and the rest "The Big 5". It works every single muscle. The rest (i.e. isolation lifts) are just for helping weak spots (in aesthetics or strength). But those 5 exercises can take you a long way in my opinion.

JoRocka

agree with this last statement. If the lats aren't engaged in any of the big 4, you're not doing them as well as you could be.

I think this is a really important thing to remember- the scapula MUST be protracted while dead lifting- and I feel that as deeply in my back as super wide grip pull ups.

You MUST engage your back to keep your chest up. It surprises me to know end how people buckle half way up- and I forget that people- women especially tend to forget that part.