Big 4 Lifts, What Muscles are Left Out?
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Lot of talk about glutes... It's is probably more useful to look at the posterior chain as a whole rather than in parts, so hamstrings, glutes, and lower back. The squat and deadlift definitely hit those areas and in the short-term that might be enough. But mid to long-term, it's not enough and posterior chain work needs to be included to continue progressing. Back Raises (roman chair or on a back raise "bench"), straight-leg deadlifts, and even hip bridges are all fine exercises. Good Mornngs are good but I'm not sure the risk is worth the reward in some cases. I know with my back problems I can no longer tolerate them.
Do you guys know how you would be able to do back raises without equipment designed to do them, or is that exactly what a good morning is for? I hope that there is actually another way because my back does not like me doing good mornings.
Lat pulldown machine and a moveable flat bench. Put your legs on the bench and feet under the lat pulldown support. It's actually closer to a glute ham raise which is actually very good too.
If I had that as an option I would. I only have an adjustable bench and a squat rack. I may have to look into something cheap that I can build.0 -
OHP is a big 4?
I'd put pullups or dips in there way before OHP, they're right up there next to deads and squats.
I think you could trade the deadlifts for the bent over barbell row (BLASPHEMY!!!! I know.) and hit almost everything with 4 main lifts.
Except, you know, the lower back.
Bent over does not work the lower back?0 -
Interesting thread0
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I know that they do from doing them either before or after doing deadlifts, but deadlifts do far more for the lower back than rows. Maybe doing Pendelay Rows will hit the lower back more?OHP is a big 4?
I'd put pullups or dips in there way before OHP, they're right up there next to deads and squats.
I think you could trade the deadlifts for the bent over barbell row (BLASPHEMY!!!! I know.) and hit almost everything with 4 main lifts.
Except, you know, the lower back.
Bent over does not work the lower back?0 -
I know that they do from doing them either before or after doing deadlifts, but deadlifts do far more for the lower back than rows. Maybe doing Pendelay Rows will hit the lower back more?OHP is a big 4?
I'd put pullups or dips in there way before OHP, they're right up there next to deads and squats.
I think you could trade the deadlifts for the bent over barbell row (BLASPHEMY!!!! I know.) and hit almost everything with 4 main lifts.
Except, you know, the lower back.
Bent over does not work the lower back?
Nothing will be as effective as the DL. I was just entering the option to see if there could be 4 compounds to hit or engage almost every muscle.0 -
BuMp0
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Bump for newb to read later.0
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I believe OHP is a big 4 due in part to it once being in Powerlifting and Olympic competition, and in part to those four lifts being about as close to full body lifts as you can get (Olympic lifts aside). That being said, part of why it is still considered a big 4 is that it builds shoulders and triceps directly; while indirectly building the "core", traps, and lats by forcing them to contract in order to maintain posture while pressing. You could even consider that the glutes, quads, and calves get work in a similar fashion if you are standing. I think similar arguments could be made for all of the big 4.
I think rows, chins, and dips etc... are assistance lifts because they arent competition lifts and because they are arguably less compound then the others - not less important, just less compound. They absolutely should have a place in a well rounded program. I know my lifts improved once I started adding them in.
Great post!0 -
Bump! Thanks for the knowledge!0
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You could probably get quite a ways just doing those 4, but personally I like about 7.
Squat, Deadlift, Barbell OHP, Chin/Pull ups, Bench, Pendlay Rows, Dip.
Maybe doing these doesn't hit the entire encyclopedia of available muscles in the body, but I do feel like I am covering my bases pretty well.0 -
You could probably get quite a ways just doing those 4, but personally I like about 7.
Squat, Deadlift, Barbell OHP, Chin/Pull ups, Bench, Pendlay Rows, Dip.
Maybe doing these doesn't hit the entire encyclopedia of available muscles in the body, but I do feel like I am covering my bases pretty well.
Chuck in loaded carries and I think you've got something there....0 -
OHP is a big 4?
I'd put pullups or dips in there way before OHP, they're right up there next to deads and squats.
I think you could trade the deadlifts for the bent over barbell row (BLASPHEMY!!!! I know.) and hit almost everything with 4 main lifts.
Except, you know, the lower back.
Bent over does not work the lower back?
If you consider Squats to "barely" work the abs, then bent-over rows do just as little for the lower back. It's a stabilizing muscle in Rows. Where as it is actively pulling the weight in deadlifts.0 -
bump to read0
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Mike for posterior chain I know you mentioned DL's, have you the romanian deadlift variation at all?0
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I use the Big 7 myself0
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As soon as I drop another 30-40 lbs, I am adding pull ups, and dips to round out the big 7 as well.
:happy:0 -
bump to watch this topic.
Even as a newbie lifter, I have also felt that I'm "missing something" in my Stronglifts routine. I've started adding in some pull up/chin up work, and will also do some dips occasionally.0 -
i'd say lats is the biggest muslce to missout. if you substituted pull ups for dead lifts i think it would be more well rounded0
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dips are probably my favorite exercise. going to get some rings to hang from my pull up bar and do them that way, they are supposed to be a lot harder then on parallel bars.0
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i'd say lats is the biggest muslce to missout. if you substituted pull ups for dead lifts i think it would be more well rounded
How about just add pull-ups/chin-ups? Ya know, since lower back needs to be worked too. I know it's not a vanity muscle, so people want to ignore it, but it's important.0 -
bump to watch this topic.
Even as a newbie lifter, I have also felt that I'm "missing something" in my Stronglifts routine. I've started adding in some pull up/chin up work, and will also do some dips occasionally.
I always thought SL was fine just throw in dips, pullups and pushups on top of it- the other compound upper body work. Since SL is all about the useful strength building compounds.0 -
i'd say lats is the biggest muslce to missout. if you substituted pull ups for dead lifts i think it would be more well rounded
How about just add pull-ups/chin-ups? Ya know, since lower back needs to be worked too. I know it's not a vanity muscle, so people want to ignore it, but it's important.
Deadlifts work the entire body, not just lower back. If you do a deadlift right you engage the entire body, every muscle group or nearly so. Deadlifts are too important to not do.0 -
personally wouldn't limit myself to four exercises so adding pull ups would be fine in my book.
thought he was just wanting to keep it to four lifts and hit as much of his body as directly as possible0 -
i'd say lats is the biggest muslce to missout. if you substituted pull ups for dead lifts i think it would be more well rounded
How about just add pull-ups/chin-ups? Ya know, since lower back needs to be worked too. I know it's not a vanity muscle, so people want to ignore it, but it's important.
Deadlifts work the entire body, not just lower back. If you do a deadlift right you engage the entire body, every muscle group or nearly so. Deadlifts are too important to not do.
Yeah I totally agree. I would never remove any of the big 4, especially for pullups. It's definitely a significant and functional compound upper body movement, but not at the expense of deads.0 -
not arguing against dead lifts.
he was just listing what wouldn't get hit.
substitute the pull ups and it solves the problem, other then calves0 -
Well yeah, you know you might have a point. Your lower back does get worked pretty significantly on the squat, especially when the weight is bearing down on you.
Also, lol calves. Seriously, I have no idea how to work them except in isolation. Maybe getting on the tiptoes at lockout on the squat lol
Dibs. That will be known as the FrnkLftian Squat. I'm so proud... :drinker:0 -
plyo0
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plyo
wut?0 -
ok, plyo with a weighted vest lol, is that acceptable
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So I thought this would make for a good topic... in the following lifts, what muscles would you say are insufficiently worked?
Bench
OH Press
Deadlift
Squat
The way I see it...
Biceps. I know they are used to help lower the weight on pressing movements, and that they are present whenever wrist rotation is in play, but they really don't get worked unless you're doing rows (another compound lift, sure).
Abs. Abs are used to help stabalize your core on most lifts, but they act to keep things stable, they are not truely movers.
Calves. Worse than abs lol All but completely neglected.
Side & Rear Delts. Again, they are used (and if you're rowing they really come into play depending on your form), but the front delts get all the glory.
Lats. They're like the biceps of the back. They help in lowering overhead loads and stablization, but they don't get much love otherwise.
For some reason I'm going to engage on this hypothetical and address your original post. I'm all for steering this back to what it was supposed to be all about.
You could fix the Side and Rear delt issue by changing OH Press to Arnold press. I know that's a bit outside the scope of your statement, but given a choice between doing an OHP, military press or shoulder press, I'd say "none of the above" and choose Arnold Press. In theory, you engage all 3 parts of the shoulder. In theory, you engage your core and arms much better because of the coordinated movement involved. It's a better exercise IMO.
I always felt like I got a better core/abs workout doing deadlifts than any other isolation ab work. I don't feel like that one is lacking. Maybe it depends on the kind of deadlift, conventional deadlifts are what I know.
I also wouldn't say that calves are completely neglected when doing squats and deads. Not exactly a primary focus but to say they aren't developing some level of functional strength I think overlooks how good deads and squats are. But I'm probably not one to talk on this cause after I do my deadlifts the next thing I do usually is calf raises, so I'm a hypocrite.
I guess I agree with you on biceps and lats as being generally under worked in those 4 exercises. If I could only add one other exercise and it had to at least partially address these muscle groups I would say add in Face Pulls. They're a great all around general arm exercise, plus you work the rear delts you noted before and to a lesser extent the back. But its really a decent mini-compound movement that requires decent coordination and generally works the whole upper body, even the core and legs a bit for stabilization.
Or I guess pull-ups would make more sense for addressing biceps + lats.
But maybe, just maybe, biceps and lats weren't meant to get as much development attention as we sometimes give them. There's an aesthetic desire for big biceps and wide lats, but is it that important really? If you are doing really good on the 4 lifts you mention, pushing and pulling significant weight with ease, couldn't you also say that biceps and lats are probably as developed as they need to be? Anything more is just vanity. 0
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