Relatively light people trying to get leaner

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  • clohessy
    clohessy Posts: 394 Member
    You mentioned "high volumes of cardio" can do "wonky" things to lean people trying to get leaner,could you please elaborate on those things that happen. Great info to have.
  • peaches6311
    peaches6311 Posts: 32 Member
    How do you know if you are over training?

    I am also a hypothyroid 5'3", 45 year old woman that weighs around 140# (body fat % as measured by calipers 25-26%). Pretty happy with my weight though I would like to lose about 5 pounds so I can compete in a lower weight class, but never seem to get around to doing it. After I lose about 3 pounds it is like my body goes crazy and I start missing periods or start having one every other week and even though I continue to track my food and wear a GoWear Fit, I will gain weight on a deficit. Then I will put the 3 pounds back on everything goes back to normal and it starts all over again. Since I am pretty happy with the way I look, I don't freak, but it is a little annoying.

    I exercise 1-2.5 hours 6 days a week. I do martial arts 3 days a week 1.5 - 2 hours each, I do Pilates once a week 1 hour, I run 1 day for about 30 min, I workout with a powerlifting coach once a week and I workout by myself lifting once a week. About every 6 week, I take a break from lifting but continue with my other exercises. Do you think that my problems might stem from over exercising. I hope not because I love everything I do besides running. I would happily give that up :)
  • fittocycle
    fittocycle Posts: 827 Member
    I've been eating around 1200 calories for about six months or so. It does vary. If I workout and burn 400-700 calories, I will definitely eat at least half of those.
    You have some great advice on this thread and I enjoy reading it!
    Thanks for taking the time to post advice for all of us!
  • stroutman81
    stroutman81 Posts: 2,474 Member
    You mentioned "high volumes of cardio" can do "wonky" things to lean people trying to get leaner,could you please elaborate on those things that happen. Great info to have.

    Let me be clear by saying many people can get away with daily cardio as long as it's controlled. 30 min here and 60 min there and moderate and below intensities isn't going to kill you. But it seems that it's the "in thing," especially for women, to start a fat loss program and pair this with marathon or triathlon training.

    Athletes who train for performance and sport eat to fuel said training.

    When you mimic this sort of stuff when you're short changed on calories, you're really backing your body and it's recovery ability systems against the wall. Which is why women who are logging serious mileage each week while dieting wind up injured, losing quite a bit of muscle and thus looking soft, plateaued on the weight loss department, irritable, and anything else that can be associated with "overtraining."

    And even for those who aren't logging serious mileage... many are still do militant with their exercise. If they're not 100% they're failing in their minds, which is silly. The body will reward them for implanting recovery in their programming. The leaner you are, the more important this becomes as our bodies become more "sensitive" to stress the leaner we get. Which is why a lot of my thinner clients have "back off" weeks every 4-8 weeks.

    A while back a buddy of mine wrote a great article on chronic stress, which you can find here:

    http://www.ampedtraining.com/2009/exercise-science/explanation-adrenal-fatigue-metabolic-damage
  • stroutman81
    stroutman81 Posts: 2,474 Member
    How do you know if you are over training?

    True overtraining is tough to get into. Generally people are overreaching, which is really the short-term of overtraining. No matter how you slice it though, when you overextend your body's ability (which is dynamic mind you) to manage stress, many things can happen and it'll vary from person to person. But remember, if we can't recover from the stresses we're imposing on our bodies, we're not going to improve. And if this goes on long enough, things can and will head south.

    Performance reductions, generally feeling like utter poop, minor aches and pains in the joints, muscle loss, weight loss plateaus, fatigue, delayed recovery between sessions, poor sleep patterns, changes in blood pressure, changes in heart rate, reduced appetite, self esteem issues, colds, amenorrhea, and the list goes on and on.

    What manifests will vary from person to person and depend on how "overtrained" they become.
    Do you think that my problems might stem from over exercising.

    If I had to take a stab at it, which keep in mind is just a stab, I'd say yup. Not over exercise per se, but over stress. How many calories per day are you consuming on average, out of curiosity?
  • kdiamond
    kdiamond Posts: 3,329 Member
    http://gubernatrix.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/getting_into_weight_training_feb2008.pdf

    This seems to describe Crossfit almost to a T. I started doing it 6 months ago (3x a week) and I have never been in better shape! I used to think doing deadlifts with a 25 pound bar was doing something! Now I am deadlifting 95+ pounds depending on the workout. I went from 102 pounds to 108 pounds but reduced my body fat 4%! I still fit in the same clothes (they fit me better actually).

    Weightlifting (heavy) is the best thing I have ever done, and I recommend it to anyone! I can tell you at 108 pounds, I am not bulky! I am lean and muscular and have zero cellulite. I will never go back to the 45 minutes dragging on the elliptical ever again!
  • stroutman81
    stroutman81 Posts: 2,474 Member
    I've general issues with crossfit. I noted them in the crossfit thread which you can read here:

    http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/95227-crossfit

    But yeah, what they're describing in the link you referenced doesn't sound like crossfit. Rather, crossfit sounds like what they're describing. Slight distinction, but one I feel is necessary since so many people are thinking crossfit is the be all end all when it's merely one application of the basic principles that any worthy strength training approach applies. And frankly... I see more people applying these principles under the umbrella of crossfit in very poor manners than than most other approaches to strength training.

    My last post in the CF thread I linked you to bares repeating:
    Anything works for losing fat as long as it establishes a calorie deficit. Period.

    Anything works for gaining muscle as long as it provides a tension overload with sufficient volume at the muscle. Period.

    A wise man once said, "As to methods there may be a million and then some, but principles are few. The man who grasps principles can successfully select his own methods. The man who tries methods, ignoring principles, is sure to have trouble.”

    Crossfit is merely one method of applying the foundational principles that fat loss and muscle gain are built upon. It just so happens that it's an extremely heavily marketed method that many people are flocking too. And truthfully, guided by the right coach, it can be a very reasonable approach.

    Unfortunately, there are a lot of bad coaches and "box" owners who espouse CF methods in extremely unsafe manners. I mean, locally here I've witness time and time again olympic lifts being taught to rank novices under extreme states of fatigue, which for anyone who understands olympic lifting knows, is a huge no-no.

    Like any other method though... it's about taking the good and weeding out the bad.

    I'm sure this post comes across as somewhat snotty. If so, my apologies. Nothing against you at all. Or even CF for that matter. I just deal with a lot of CF zealots who worship CF while not understanding the principles.

    Carry on. :)
  • peaches6311
    peaches6311 Posts: 32 Member
    According to my GoWear Fit I average about 2200 calories a day burn, and I eat about 1800 calories a day. So I am not starving myself by any means :)

    I will steadily lose for awhile, and then it seems as if everything goes haywire and I put it all back (and maybe a few) and then it starts all over again :(
  • stroutman81
    stroutman81 Posts: 2,474 Member
    According to my GoWear Fit I average about 2200 calories a day burn, and I eat about 1800 calories a day. So I am not starving myself by any means :)

    I will steadily lose for awhile, and then it seems as if everything goes haywire and I put it all back (and maybe a few) and then it starts all over again :(

    Not starving yourself, no. But you're adding to the pot of stress you're imposing on your body. Less nutrition coming in the door means less ability to recover. And when you're doing marathon 2 hour sessions per day, stressing out about plateauing, and whatever else you have going on in the gym and in life and this stuff's paired with a calorie deficit... well...

    Competitive athletes can have crazy workloads. But they eat to support it. And they take planned breaks to allow for recovery (periodization).

    Who knows... maybe this isn't the case with you. But it's the case with most I encounter in your shoes. Maybe you're the one off who is eating more than you believe or expending less than you believe.
  • marathongurl4
    marathongurl4 Posts: 4
    bump! this topic is perfect for me! I'm also a runner and I'm using weights to increase my performance. Lots of interesting information, thanks!
  • corpus_validum
    corpus_validum Posts: 292 Member
    First time ever coming across this thread, and I've gotta say it's the BOMB!!! best ever on this forum.

    If every trainer at the large gyms were like you, there would be a much higher percentage of regular and rational fitness enthusiasts.

    BTW, this thread should be in the Fitness and Exercise forum as well.
  • stroutman81
    stroutman81 Posts: 2,474 Member
    First time ever coming across this thread, and I've gotta say it's the BOMB!!! best ever on this forum.

    If every trainer at the large gyms were like you, there would be a much higher percentage of regular and rational fitness enthusiasts.

    BTW, this thread should be in the Fitness and Exercise forum as well.

    Well thanks very much. Large gyms tend not to attract quality trainers. They're more interested in hiring salesmen and women who call themselves trainers. I mean, they're a great place for young or new trainers to start out. Their goal though, if they're serious about this field, should be to graduate from there and either go work for an independently owned facility that's run by *true* professionals or branch out on their own.

    That's what I did anyhow.

    This industry's a wreck really. I'm putting out the 3rd part to my "state of the industry" article hopefully early next week. Stay tuned.
  • Black_Swan
    Black_Swan Posts: 770 Member
    This is a great thread full of great advice, I love it!

    This might be slightly off topic, but my fitness goal is actually to be able to pick up a heavy metal pole and smash a zombie head with it. It might sound aggressive, but my fitness level is so low that Im afraid I could not even run away from the zombie - or hit it correctly!
    So Im doing cardio (to run away) and weight lifting (to smash the zombie with the rod).
    I have just started but I am really enthusiastic. I feel I can do something with this body!
  • corpus_validum
    corpus_validum Posts: 292 Member
    Well thanks very much. Large gyms tend not to attract quality trainers. They're more interested in hiring salesmen and women who call themselves trainers. I mean, they're a great place for young or new trainers to start out. Their goal though, if they're serious about this field, should be to graduate from there and either go work for an independently owned facility that's run by *true* professionals or branch out on their own.

    That's what I did anyhow.

    This industry's a wreck really. I'm putting out the 3rd part to my "state of the industry" article hopefully early next week. Stay tuned.

    That's funny you mentioned it, because though I go 4x a week to a large gym near me for the weights, I just recently started going to a small independent studio once every 2 weeks for a real trainer (albeit pricey).

    I noticed you and others mention sporadically throughout this thread that spot training is not realistic. I wonder if you ever came across Dr. Lonnie Lowery's article titled "Spot Reduction is Real: Here's How To Do It – 2/01/2011" on [Male hormone]-Nation? If so, do you agree with the key principles?

    Thanks again for an excellent, educational thread.
  • jljohnson
    jljohnson Posts: 719 Member
    I've watched this thread occasionally when it pops up in the recent list. I think there's a lot of good advice here, and want to follow it a little more regularly. Steve, if you don't mind, I'd like to send you a message for some more personalized advice.
  • stroutman81
    stroutman81 Posts: 2,474 Member
    This is a great thread full of great advice, I love it!

    This might be slightly off topic, but my fitness goal is actually to be able to pick up a heavy metal pole and smash a zombie head with it. It might sound aggressive, but my fitness level is so low that Im afraid I could not even run away from the zombie - or hit it correctly!
    So Im doing cardio (to run away) and weight lifting (to smash the zombie with the rod).
    I have just started but I am really enthusiastic. I feel I can do something with this body!

    I have to tell ya... this is new to me, lol. I've never had a client come to me wanting help fighting zombies!
  • stroutman81
    stroutman81 Posts: 2,474 Member
    That's funny you mentioned it, because though I go 4x a week to a large gym near me for the weights, I just recently started going to a small independent studio once every 2 weeks for a real trainer (albeit pricey).

    If you don't mind, I'd love to know which studio if they have a website. And I'd love to know what they charge. If you'd be more comfortable emailing me this info, that'd be fine.
    I noticed you and others mention sporadically throughout this thread that spot training is not realistic. I wonder if you ever came across Dr. Lonnie Lowery's article titled "Spot Reduction is Real: Here's How To Do It – 2/01/2011" on [Male hormone]-Nation? If so, do you agree with the key principles?

    To be honest, I've not read the article. I don't go to t-nation at all anymore. I used to spend some time there when the quality of article was better. But their authors get paid to 1) pimp their supps (which is a no no where I come from) and 2) to write new ideas. But the problem is there are no new ideas. So they recreate the old ones over and over again without giving credit to the originals and in doing so, make it seem like what they're writing about is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

    It's sad what's happening over there.

    Especially considering some of the people they have on staff there - very good folks like Eric Cressey, Mike Roberson, Dave Tate, Dan John, Jim Wendler and a few others. But it's the nature of the business I suppose.

    Regarding the article though, after reading through the first paragraph or two, it sounds like good old doc lowery read Lyle McDonald's "Stubborn Fat Solution" and decided to write about it as his own.

    There's some truth to being able to preferentially tap into stubborn body fat with very specific modes of cardio and nutrition timing. But it's really only applicable if you're lean trying to get leaner. And more importantly, it's not true spot reduction in that it's not like we're saying you can specifically target the fat on your arm by doing tricep exercises or anything like that.

    If you want to learn all about the protocol as well as the physiology behind it, I highly recommend Lyle's Stubborn Fat book.
  • stroutman81
    stroutman81 Posts: 2,474 Member
    I've watched this thread occasionally when it pops up in the recent list. I think there's a lot of good advice here, and want to follow it a little more regularly. Steve, if you don't mind, I'd like to send you a message for some more personalized advice.

    Go right ahead. I get 5-10 emails about this thread each and every day.
  • stroutman81
    stroutman81 Posts: 2,474 Member
    And here's Lyle's thoughts on the article you referenced:
    Sadly, Lonnie seems to be confusing cause and effect here. The fat isn't stubborn because it's cold. It's cold because it has poor blood flow, which is why it's stubborn
  • pj_writer
    pj_writer Posts: 107 Member
    if anyone else has more recommendations though that would be great, the more info I can get the better. I'm definitely interested in putting more effort into this sort of exercise... turns out I was doing more than I thought already though as the DVDs I use have quite a lot of these exercises on them. Maybe I need bigger weights!

    The exercise isn't as important as the load and volume.

    Put differently, doing a squat isn't "magic." But doing a squat with sufficient load and volume will trigger changes to your muscles. It's not the exercise. It's how the exercise is performed.
    oh yes - that brings up a new question actually... what sort of weight of dumbells would you recommend for a reasonably fit/strong female to be using if newish to weight lifting?
    I have 1.5kg ones at home but I think they are too light. What should I be trying to build up to?

    You should really read this entire thread. I know it's a time commitment, but it would really pay off for you. I posted these links earlier in this thread and you should read them as they explain the answer to your question about "what should I be building up to."

    http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/stroutman81/view/resistance-training-foundation-19725

    http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/stroutman81/view/more-random-thoughts-on-resistance-training-19945

    thanks again
    I thought I had read the whole thread but it is very long so I guess I was skimming a bit ;)
  • maryann73
    maryann73 Posts: 763 Member
    bump
  • fitmom4ever
    fitmom4ever Posts: 130
    bump (It seems like there is a wealth of valuable information here, I definately want to spend some time reading the entire thread. If only I can get the children to sleep....)
  • stroutman81
    stroutman81 Posts: 2,474 Member
    I've my 9 month old sleeping right here next to me. It's easy when this young though. :)
  • Lyadeia
    Lyadeia Posts: 4,603 Member
    Bumping for later. :flowerforyou:
  • locomotion
    locomotion Posts: 67
    bump
  • zcosborne86
    zcosborne86 Posts: 50
    bump! This is great thank you!
  • stroutman81
    stroutman81 Posts: 2,474 Member
    Thanks for the bumps guys. Glad you're able to derive some usefulness from the thread.
  • sexyjeans
    sexyjeans Posts: 49
    bump
  • NitaCB
    NitaCB Posts: 532 Member
    bump
  • Elzecat
    Elzecat Posts: 2,916 Member
    Thank you for posting all of this information. Your thoughtful and educational responses to all of the questions people have about metabolism/lean muscle mass etc. were much more appreciated than a previous "trainer" who basically came on MFP and chided people for starving themselves (eating less than 1500-2000 calories a day) and said basically we should ALL be doing the same thing nutritionally (eating 2000 calories a day) without taking into account gender, bone structure, exercise habits, body fat percentage, metabolism or health issues, and so on...I will definitely come check out your blog. (even though I'm a heavier person just trying to be "average" at this point :)

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