Relatively light people trying to get leaner

jlsAhava

Thanks for your help Steve!

awyler

thanks for the insight! i def ditched my scale awhile back and focus more on bmi. its a hard concept for us ladies to get but muscle weighs more than fat and we want muscle!!!!! )

cris12

Yep, so any weight that allows me to do 6-12 reps would be doing the trick, any less would be too heavy and any more would be too light for muscle growth.

Not absolutely but it's a good rule to follow.

I'll have of my clients go heavier, and thus use lower reps. I linked above to a classic workout that goes by The 5x5 Program, which means 5 sets of 5 reps. There can be utility in going heavier... but most people around here probably shouldn't venture into that territory unless they've significant experience "under the bar" and they've confirmed that their form is safe.

Newcomers can also get away going lighter, and thus using higher reps. Here's why. That tension threshold I mentioned above, in itself, is adaptable. So the threshold is lower in novices and raises with experience and strength. So where a novice may be able to generate muscle growth using a load that's 35% of her maximum ability, a more seasoned lifter might need 80% or more for the same adaptation.

So there are no absolutes, but again, a good general rule.

So say I keep increasing my weights over time as needed, and three months from now I finally have ''toned up'' to my desire and wouldn't want muscles to get any larger, would I then need to stop increasing my weights? Or do hormones take care of the female non-bulkiness?

The latter. You're not going to bulk up like that. But suppose you did because you have some freaky genetics going on... then yea, you'd simply move to maintenance loads where you're not focusing on getting stronger. I doubt you'll have to worry about it.

Calories calories... it does make sense that it is too inaccurate to tell how much I'm actually consuming. So what I'm catching is to play it by ear and continue strength training, if there is progress then I'm at the right deficit range, and should just calculate 400-700 cal. more for maintenance, probably lower in the range because of my size. I could stay at ''1200'' for deficit since it has been working so far and continue from there. If I feel tired/irritable/hungry then I know I'm consuming too little and it could be slowing down the process. Hm.... on the right track?

I'd say you're on the right track.

I'll keep at it then! Thanks Steve, I really, really appreciate it.

stroutman81

Wow, this post is great!! You are a great person helping out all of us. I need to go through here and read more, I read your very first post and it hits right at home. I'm down to my last 5 pounds or so, and its been a struggle and very frustrating!!

That's usually the time where you have to start asking yourself, "Will a loss of 5 lbs make me happy?"

If the answer is no, which is generally the case with most honest folks, typically a change of focus is called for.

Not the easiest pill to swallow.

stroutman81

thanks for the insight! i def ditched my scale awhile back and focus more on bmi. its a hard concept for us ladies to get but muscle weighs more than fat and we want muscle!!!!! )

BMI is about as useless as the scale if you ask me. Heck, I'm overweight by BMI standards and I'm as healthy as a horse with low body fat levels.

The best metrics are, in my opinion, how you feel, how you look, how you perform, and that's about it. Pictures, measurements, performance in the gym or your sport, your energy levels, etc.... these are the things I pay attention to.

pamp1emousse

Thank you for your help! The blogs were great

Glad you enjoyed. And for anyone following a long with this thread... if you've not read those links, be sure to do so. I get loads of emails from people about this thread and if they had read those two links, they would have had the answers to their questions before emailing me.

Not that I mind receiving emails.

So if I did something like the following...
A: 2 tricep exercises, 1 bicep, shoulder and chest exercise (each), lat pulldown, pushups
B: Squats, lunges, glute kickback, leg press, leg extension, abductor (is that the inner thigh one? if not, adductor)
C: 2 oblique and 2 ab exercises, supermans/hyperextensions

Hmmm, I can't say I'm a fan of your exercise selection and priority. To be specific... you've too much redundancy and isolation type movements.

Put it this way... beginners who come to train with me at my gym might get placed on something like this:

Day 1:

Squat
Bench
Row
Core

Day 2:

Squat
Bench
Row
Core

Seriously. That's how simple some of my programming is. They don't need, for instance, squats, leg extensions, adduction and abduction, etc. Squats hit everything already and as long as you do sufficient volume with them... why do anything else. More is not always better and you certainly don't have to hit muscles from a multitude of angles to get them to grow. That's "bro science" handed down from years of steroid using bodybuilders.

Granted, the above program isn't sexy. But when applied correctly and paired with individualized prehad/rehab stuff... it gets people healthier and more mobile as well as stronger and leaner.

One of the most popular, time tested programs out there goes by the name of 5x5. You can read its history here and notice how simplistic it is:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/the-5x5-program.html

I'm not saying that you need to go and follow 5x5... but I'm trying to get you to see what basic strength training looks like.

adjusting the sets weights and reps as I progress, doing A and B twice and week and C once a week would that be alright?

Are you saying A gets done twice per week and B gets done twice per week? Please clarify.

Any suggestions? I know things like deadlifts and rows are really important exercises but I can't do them with good form! (my squat form is still a bit dodgy..) I think I need to strengthen my quads and lower back first (according to the coaches at the gym anyway)

I've people send me videos of them executing exercises all of the time. It's how I go about some of my online personal training to assess the form of my clients. If you're up to filming yourself, you can surely send me it for review. If you upload to something like youtube, you can make the video unlisted to anyone except those who have the link.

I can typically trouble shoot most issues I see with good video. If that's something you'd consider, drop me an email on here.

If not, no big deal.

I agree though, if you can't do something right don't do it at all. It's so much easier to learn correctly from the get go than it is to learn over top of a wrongly learned movement pattern that has been ingrained.

What are redundancy movements and what do you mean by bench? And "individualized prehad/rehab stuff"? My resistance training vocab is pretty poor it seems
Lol your program is defninitely a lot simpler though... I was suggesting 2 days a week of A, 2 days a week of B, 1 day a week of C (based on the fact that I engage my core during cardio and other exercises anyway? Hmm may well be wrong about this)

I'm definitely interested in the 5x5 program - but what do you think about replacing squats with lunges? And is there something I can switch rows for? The gym coaches seem to think I'm some sort of wierdo I think (I agree) but I genuinely can't do them with by back straight and I can't do squats without leaning forwards!

Thanks so much for the video offer!But I don't have a video camera so I don't think I'll be able to... I was thinking of getting a personal trainer for a couple of sessions soon though to help me get all the moves right.

pamp1emousse

Oh, I have another question as well actually, hope you don't mind
So whilst some people naturally have relatively flat stomachs even when they're on the heavier side, I still am far away from having one (it's by no means horrible, but there's a bit of a pooch) . The thing is, I don't want to lose another 7lbs or whatever it would take because I'm getting a bony chest and back, which I think is quite unattractive on me. Do you have any suggestions, or should I just consign myself to living without the stomach of my dreams? (I could live with that, I'd just prefer to know if there's something I can do!)

myofibril

I'm definitely interested in the 5x5 program - but what do you think about replacing squats with lunges? And is there something I can switch rows for? The gym coaches seem to think I'm some sort of wierdo I think (I agree) but I genuinely can't do them with by back straight and I can't do squats without leaning forwards!

I'll let Steve answer your questions but I have to say this: there's nothing weird about being self aware enough to realise you are not or cannot do a particular exercise with good form. If most people would consciously look at and consider what they are doing and make the appropriate corrections they would probably get much further.

Squats are a superb exercise IF you can perform them properly. I can't. The mechanics of it mean my form is atrocious when I try to do it (I blame my long femurs....or maybe that's just an excuse?) I stick with a leg press and do just fine.

Re: a substitute for rows. There are lots and I am sure Steve can point you in the right direction. I think an inverted row is quite cool myself (although my love affair with pull ups & chin ups is still going strong):

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/BackGeneral/BWSupineRow.html

pamp1emousse

I'll let Steve answer your questions but I have to say this: there's nothing weird about being self aware enough to realise you are not or cannot do a particular exercise with good form.

Squats are a superb exercise IF you can perform them properly. I can't. The mechanics of it mean my form is atrocious when I try to do it (I blame my long femurs....or maybe that's just an excuse?) I stick with a leg press and do just fine.

Re: a substitute for rows. There are lots and I am sure Steve can point you in the right direction. I think an inverted row is quite cool myself (although my love affair with pull ups & chin ups is still going strong):

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/BackGeneral/BWSupineRow.html

I'm glad I'm not the only one! And those inverted rows look great - thanks! I'll give them a go.

rautaty

Thank you for the great advice.
I was at my haviest this summer, 145lb and i am only 5'3, so I droped naturaly 3-4 pounds but I decided to take metters in my own hands in Oct., I noticed just by cutting my cal. intake to 1000 I droped about 9 pounds in about 20 days, after that it was an extremly slow battle! It took me nearly 4 months to get to 125lb and i tried to create a deficit of 100-200 cals a day with exercises, but i did eat more, 1300-1400 on average a day, because 1000 is not healthy.
It's a slow process, i want to give up sometimes, but i try not to focus on the scale that much because i know i am muscular and i might not get to 115 by summer:))), but i focus on my belly and try to flatten that out (i tend to get abdominal fat, even if it's subcutaneous).
Btw. 1800 would be too much for me, because i know i underestimate by about 20-30% my food intake.

But seriously thank you, great post!

rautaty

The problem with me is that, i tend to scare away from weight training, because i tend to build muscle faster then most women especialy in my lower body, the only ones i work are my oblics and abdomen and i do squats. The problem is that once i get to my desired shape, how am i going to keep it, because cardio could just deminish my weight.

stroutman81

What are redundancy movements

Well, for instance, if you squatted, I don't see a reason at all to do go go and do the abduction/adduction machine. Or all those arm exercises you listed first. If I have my clients do arms at all, it's at the end since they get blasted by all the big pulling and pushing exercises with much heavier loads than what'll be used during isolation direct arm movements.

The easiest way of looking at it is economy. We want to focus on the movements that give us the biggest bang for our bucks. These tend to be the movements that call on the largest number of muscles and joints to execute. When we focus on these, there's no reason to worry about, generally speaking, hitting each little muscle at multiple angles since most likely they were covered during the big movements.

And don't get hung up in chasing spot reduction. I know most people around here know we can't pick and choose where fat is lost. Yet, I often see people focusing and/or prioritizing exercises like triceps and ab/adduction exercises likely b/c that's where they have issues with stubborn fat.

and what do you mean by bench?

Bench Press. Or any pushing exercise really - flat, incline or decline barbell or dumbbell bench press. Pushups at varying angles or on suspension trainers like TRX or rings. Overhead barbell or dumbbell presses from a seated or standing position. Etc. etc.

And "individualized prehad/rehab stuff"?

Yes.

Flexibility, mobility and stability training. Individualized in the sense that we all have unique postural and movement issues going on which should be addressed. A house is only as strong as its foundation and flexibility, mobility, and stability are our foundations. If they're screwed up, our form in exercises are likely to be screwed up. Our bodies always follow the path of least resistance... so if we've issues going on, our bodies will compensate by working around them thus perpetuating and worsening the issues.

This is why, even with my online clients, I'll take various static postural assessments using pictures in various poses.

Common issues that are present in most folks who are seated more than they're standing include:

- anterior pelvic tilt
- increased kyphosis of the thoracic spine
- forward head posture
- tight anterior torsos (chest and shoulders primarily)
- poor stabilization of the scapular muscles
- poor ankle mobility

The list goes on.

Lol your program is defninitely a lot simpler though... I was suggesting 2 days a week of A, 2 days a week of B, 1 day a week of C (based on the fact that I engage my core during cardio and other exercises anyway? Hmm may well be wrong about this)

That would be fine assuming you iron out the kinks in your exercise selection. One of my favorite training splits looks like something like this:

Day 1: Upper Body - heavy horizontal pulling and pushing, light vertical pushing and pulling

Day 2: Lower Body - heavy quad dominant, light posterior chain dominant

Day 3: Upper Body - heavy vertical pushing and pulling, light horizontal pushing and pulling

Day 4: Lower Body - heave posterior chain dominant, light quad dominant

Horizontal pulling movements include barbell rows, dumbbell rows (single arm, double arm, head supported, etc), pendlay rows, rack pulls, cable rows, inverted rows, etc.

Vertical pulling include pullups, pulldowns, etc.

Horizontal pushing includes bench press (varying angles and DBs or BB), pushups, single arm DB bench press, floor press, etc.

Vertical pushing includes overhead pressing with DB or BB, push press, lateral raises, etc

Quad dominant includes squat variations (goblet, front, back, box), lunge variations (alternating, lateral, rearward), step ups, leg press, etc.

Posterior chain includes deadlift variations (conventional, trap bar, suitcase, etc), barbell hip thrusts, glute bridges, SHELCs, pull throughs, etc.

I'd pick one big exercise for each category and focus on 3-5 sets of 5-12 reps. Heavy stuff would be in the 5-8 rep range and light stuff would be in the 8-12 rep range.

I'd throw core stuff and arm stuff in at the end of each day.

Nothing's written in stone... but this portrays how I mentally break stuff down more often than not.

but what do you think about replacing squats with lunges? And is there something I can switch rows for? The gym coaches seem to think I'm some sort of wierdo I think (I agree) but I genuinely can't do them with by back straight and I can't do squats without leaning forwards!

Something wrong with the "coaches" at your gym if they can't you to squat correctly. And here's a secret.... you MUST lean forward in the squat or you'll fall over backwards!

If you're not comfortable with barbell squats, I'd start with light goblet squats.

And there are plenty of rowing variations which don't require you to stabilize your back.

Thanks so much for the video offer!But I don't have a video camera so I don't think I'll be able to... I was thinking of getting a personal trainer for a couple of sessions soon though to help me get all the moves right.

I'd recommend it. I've a growing video archive on my youtube channel too. Just search for stroutman81. They're on my website as well.

stroutman81

And xmaxine.... here is a thread from my forum (don't need to join to see) where there are loads of squat videos worth checking out. The first one, though long, is by Dan John and he teaches the goblet squat. All are worth watching for anyone who's uncertain about the squat. Can't replace hands on instruction from a competent coach, but it's a fantastic start.

http://www.forum-body-improvements.com/showthread.php?t=287

stroutman81

Oh, I have another question as well actually, hope you don't mind
So whilst some people naturally have relatively flat stomachs even when they're on the heavier side, I still am far away from having one (it's by no means horrible, but there's a bit of a pooch) . The thing is, I don't want to lose another 7lbs or whatever it would take because I'm getting a bony chest and back, which I think is quite unattractive on me. Do you have any suggestions, or should I just consign myself to living without the stomach of my dreams? (I could live with that, I'd just prefer to know if there's something I can do!)

Don't you know... some feminine softness is a good thing!

But yea, that's one of the issues a lot of people run into. In order to lose their stubborn fat depots, other parts of their body start to look sickly thin. If your genetics are such, you might be damned if you do, damned if you don't. The only way of knowing though is to press on and see what happens. Our bodies lose fat in a genetically predetermined pattern. So it's possible that if you press on in a deficit, you could tap into your tummy softness and the other areas will slow down their fat loss - or possibly stop all together.

Also, I've a number of female clients who were thin for the most part but complained of having a belly still. And yea, many of them still had softness in the region. But a good many of them also had horrific posture which magnified the appearance of having a belly. Most notably they had increased kyphosis of the thoracic spine (too much rounding of the mid/upper spine) and tight abdominals. This in turn sort of hunched them over thus bunching up the skin/fat in the belly region. When we ironed out the kinks and had them "walking tall" things looked much better.

Something else to consider.

stroutman81

I'll let Steve answer your questions but I have to say this: there's nothing weird about being self aware enough to realise you are not or cannot do a particular exercise with good form. If most people would consciously look at and consider what they are doing and make the appropriate corrections they would probably get much further.

Squats are a superb exercise IF you can perform them properly. I can't. The mechanics of it mean my form is atrocious when I try to do it (I blame my long femurs....or maybe that's just an excuse?) I stick with a leg press and do just fine.

Re: a substitute for rows. There are lots and I am sure Steve can point you in the right direction. I think an inverted row is quite cool myself (although my love affair with pull ups & chin ups is still going strong):

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/BackGeneral/BWSupineRow.html

All great advice. And inverted rows are a staple in my programming... generally done using suspension trainers.

Long legs femurs can put you at a disadvantage in the squats for sure. But even then, I'll replace them with front squats or wide-stanced box squats to eliminate the disadvantage.

stroutman81

Thank you for the great advice.
I was at my haviest this summer, 145lb and i am only 5'3, so I droped naturaly 3-4 pounds but I decided to take metters in my own hands in Oct., I noticed just by cutting my cal. intake to 1000 I droped about 9 pounds in about 20 days, after that it was an extremly slow battle! It took me nearly 4 months to get to 125lb and i tried to create a deficit of 100-200 cals a day with exercises, but i did eat more, 1300-1400 on average a day, because 1000 is not healthy.
It's a slow process, i want to give up sometimes, but i try not to focus on the scale that much because i know i am muscular and i might not get to 115 by summer:))), but i focus on my belly and try to flatten that out (i tend to get abdominal fat, even if it's subcutaneous).
Btw. 1800 would be too much for me, because i know i underestimate by about 20-30% my food intake.

But seriously thank you, great post!

I've done some crazy diets on myself and with specific clients of mine - most notably toying around with protein sparing modified fasts, which is the ONLY way I'd cut calories super low. PSMF allows you to cut calories as low as safely possible since you maintain the basic essentials and ward off as much muscle loss as possible. But it's not a sustainable way of eating and it's not something I'd allow most of my clients to try.

For the vast majority of people it's a matter of finding methods of eating that are sustainable for life. Otherwise they're just perpetuating the on again off again cycle that so many dieters find themselves trapped in.

And most of the belly fat that people hate is subcutaneous. The other stuff is visceral and this is the deeper stuff. Generally this is the first stuff to go when a deficit is invoked, which is good, since it's the least healthy.

stroutman81

The problem with me is that, i tend to scare away from weight training, because i tend to build muscle faster then most women especialy in my lower body, the only ones i work are my oblics and abdomen and i do squats. The problem is that once i get to my desired shape, how am i going to keep it, because cardio could just deminish my weight.

Well the only way muscles grow is with sufficient overload. If you're not increasing the load lifted, you're not going to grow muscle. Plus, you're not going to grow appreciable muscle even with overload if you're not eating a calorie surplus.

pamp1emousse

What are redundancy movements

Well, for instance, if you squatted, I don't see a reason at all to do go go and do the abduction/adduction machine. Or all those arm exercises you listed first. If I have my clients do arms at all, it's at the end since they get blasted by all the big pulling and pushing exercises with much heavier loads than what'll be used during isolation direct arm movements.

The easiest way of looking at it is economy. We want to focus on the movements that give us the biggest bang for our bucks. These tend to be the movements that call on the largest number of muscles and joints to execute. When we focus on these, there's no reason to worry about, generally speaking, hitting each little muscle at multiple angles since most likely they were covered during the big movements.

And don't get hung up in chasing spot reduction. I know most people around here know we can't pick and choose where fat is lost. Yet, I often see people focusing and/or prioritizing exercises like triceps and ab/adduction exercises likely b/c that's where they have issues with stubborn fat.

and what do you mean by bench?

Bench Press. Or any pushing exercise really - flat, incline or decline barbell or dumbbell bench press. Pushups at varying angles or on suspension trainers like TRX or rings. Overhead barbell or dumbbell presses from a seated or standing position. Etc. etc.

And "individualized prehad/rehab stuff"?

Yes.

Flexibility, mobility and stability training. Individualized in the sense that we all have unique postural and movement issues going on which should be addressed. A house is only as strong as its foundation and flexibility, mobility, and stability are our foundations. If they're screwed up, our form in exercises are likely to be screwed up. Our bodies always follow the path of least resistance... so if we've issues going on, our bodies will compensate by working around them thus perpetuating and worsening the issues.

This is why, even with my online clients, I'll take various static postural assessments using pictures in various poses.

Common issues that are present in most folks who are seated more than they're standing include:

- anterior pelvic tilt
- increased kyphosis of the thoracic spine
- forward head posture
- tight anterior torsos (chest and shoulders primarily)
- poor stabilization of the scapular muscles
- poor ankle mobility

The list goes on.

Lol your program is defninitely a lot simpler though... I was suggesting 2 days a week of A, 2 days a week of B, 1 day a week of C (based on the fact that I engage my core during cardio and other exercises anyway? Hmm may well be wrong about this)

That would be fine assuming you iron out the kinks in your exercise selection. One of my favorite training splits looks like something like this:

Day 1: Upper Body - heavy horizontal pulling and pushing, light vertical pushing and pulling

Day 2: Lower Body - heavy quad dominant, light posterior chain dominant

Day 3: Upper Body - heavy vertical pushing and pulling, light horizontal pushing and pulling

Day 4: Lower Body - heave posterior chain dominant, light quad dominant

Horizontal pulling movements include barbell rows, dumbbell rows (single arm, double arm, head supported, etc), pendlay rows, rack pulls, cable rows, inverted rows, etc.

Vertical pulling include pullups, pulldowns, etc.

Horizontal pushing includes bench press (varying angles and DBs or BB), pushups, single arm DB bench press, floor press, etc.

Vertical pushing includes overhead pressing with DB or BB, push press, lateral raises, etc

Quad dominant includes squat variations (goblet, front, back, box), lunge variations (alternating, lateral, rearward), step ups, leg press, etc.

Posterior chain includes deadlift variations (conventional, trap bar, suitcase, etc), barbell hip thrusts, glute bridges, SHELCs, pull throughs, etc.

I'd pick one big exercise for each category and focus on 3-5 sets of 5-12 reps. Heavy stuff would be in the 5-8 rep range and light stuff would be in the 8-12 rep range.

I'd throw core stuff and arm stuff in at the end of each day.

Nothing's written in stone... but this portrays how I mentally break stuff down more often than not.

but what do you think about replacing squats with lunges? And is there something I can switch rows for? The gym coaches seem to think I'm some sort of wierdo I think (I agree) but I genuinely can't do them with by back straight and I can't do squats without leaning forwards!

Something wrong with the "coaches" at your gym if they can't you to squat correctly. And here's a secret.... you MUST lean forward in the squat or you'll fall over backwards!

If you're not comfortable with barbell squats, I'd start with light goblet squats.

And there are plenty of rowing variations which don't require you to stabilize your back.

Thanks so much for the video offer!But I don't have a video camera so I don't think I'll be able to... I was thinking of getting a personal trainer for a couple of sessions soon though to help me get all the moves right.

I'd recommend it. I've a growing video archive on my youtube channel too. Just search for stroutman81. They're on my website as well.

Thank you SO MUCH for taking so much time to write your responses - they're brilliant :flowerforyou: I'm going to go through everything tomorrow and write myself up a routine like you suggested and your website look great too! I'll look through it properly tomorrow after work and figure out my form in front of the mirror - not going to lie, it's pretty embarrassing doing that at the gym.

Don't you know... some feminine softness is a good thing!

lol, good answer
I think I'll work on building up some more muscle in the next few months and see how I feel later... these 14lbs have taken like 5 months to come off so if anything it'll be nice to have a change in routine.

Anyway conclusion is you = great. Thank you! :bigsmile:

myofibril

Long legs femurs can put you at a disadvantage in the squats for sure. But even then, I'll replace them with front squats or wide-stanced box squats to eliminate the disadvantage.

Lol - you must have read my mind. I've been meaning to give front squats another try recently so I just might do that...

Loved your interview with Lyle McDonald by the way. "A Guide To Flexible Dieting" trounces so many other well marketed, over hyped and just sadly deficient "diet" books out there.

hellen72

Great thread. Am up to page 4!