Clean Eating Bashing?
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NOBODY tells clean eaters to eat them. When people ask whether they have to eat clean or not, yo get the kind of conversation I posted. Nobody ever tells someone that chooses to eat clean that they can't or shouldn't do it.
When did I make any kind of claim about the health benefits of a Pop-tart? They provide pretty good energy for a workout, other than that, they are an occasional treat. Exactly what am I biased about? The fact that I eat a whole foods diet, including grass fed meat, home grown produce, condiments like mayo and mustard that I make from scratch at home, home made scratch made bread, and then the occasional bowl of Ben & Jerry's to go with it? I'm confused as to what my bias is? Nobody tears down clean eaters here, clean eaters tear down everyone else. Look at your first sentence "Pop-tarts aren't healthy." Exactly what relevance does that even have to what I posted? It was simply an attack for the sake of an attack.
Would you tell a vegan to go eat a big ole steak and then bash them for saying they won't or don't eat that food and stating their reason why? Probably not. But you'll do it to those who eat clean, because we don't eat pop tarts (or whatever food you want to insert there). Pop tarts give me no energy. Pop tarts give me stomach aches. That's why I don't eat pop tarts. I'm not sure how it was an attack to say pop tarts are not healthy, pretty sure that's a fact. Plus, it's not presented as occasional. it's presented as just eat it and as if they are eaten all the time. I don't fault *you* for eating a pop tart, but telling a clean eater to eat them is just asking for an argument.
And as Waldo said, overall diets are healthy or unhealthy, individual foods cannot be, as foods don't exist in a vacuum, and there is not a single food on this planet that will actually provide every single nutrient a person needs to be healthy on its own.0 -
When did I make any kind of claim about the health benefits of a Pop-tart? They provide pretty good energy for a workout, other than that, they are an occasional treat. Exactly what am I biased about? The fact that I eat a whole foods diet, including grass fed meat, home grown produce, condiments like mayo and mustard that I make from scratch at home, home made scratch made bread, and then the occasional bowl of Ben & Jerry's to go with it? I'm confused as to what my bias is? Nobody tears down clean eaters here, clean eaters tear down everyone else. Look at your first sentence "Pop-tarts aren't healthy." Exactly what relevance does that even have to what I posted? It was simply an attack for the sake of an attack.
Would you tell a vegan to go eat a big ole steak and then bash them for saying they won't or don't eat that food and stating their reason why? Probably not. But you'll do it to those who eat clean, because we don't eat pop tarts (or whatever food you want to insert there). Pop tarts give me no energy. Pop tarts give me stomach aches. That's why I don't eat pop tarts. I'm not sure how it was an attack to say pop tarts are not healthy, pretty sure that's a fact. Plus, it's not presented as occasional. it's presented as just eat it and as if they are eaten all the time. I don't fault *you* for eating a pop tart, but telling a clean eater to eat them is just asking for an argument.
If the vegan says they don't want to eat steak because steak causes Alzheimer's, then, yes, I will criticize them.
And if the vegan tries to tell someone else not to eat steak because it'll give them Alzheimer's, then, yes, I will criticize them.
Eat what you want. No one cares. The problem is telling other people things that are untrue.0 -
Pop tarts are not healthy.. I don't even think an iifym person would try to say they are.
Nor are they unhealthy.
An IIFYM person would say that the healthiness of a particular item, or lack thereof, is itself a myth. Only a diet can be healthy or unhealthy, that trait cannot be applied to an individual food item (barring allergies or other acute toxicity).
This is not that hard to grasp. Heath food is a myth. So is junk food.
^^yep.
I gave a short quote from Eric Helms on the prior thread. Here is this full quote (with sections re behavioral aspects excluded as slightly off topic), which tries to explain exactly the above:
"The Myth of “Good” and “Bad” Foods
I think one of the most pervasive, and possibly detrimental mind sets is that of seeing foods as either “good” or “bad”. This is a rather seductive way of looking at foods because it is simplistic. Look at a food, identify it as friend or foe, and then go with the “good” option not the “bad” option and you’ll be healthy, fit, lean and sexy! It’s that easy! But of course, that’s not the case.
<snip>.....All or nothing Black and white mindsets ignore the concepts of magnitude and frequency which are all important when it comes to long term change. Of course 1g of sugar eaten every 2 weeks will not have the same effect as 100g of sugar eaten daily, but we love to label sugar as “bad”. Even water consumed in massive excess can lead to hyponatremia and death. Sugar is not good or bad, and neither is water, they just are what they are and without attention to magnitude or frequency, labels like “good” or “bad” are misleading.
<snip>...There are truly VERY few foods that are actively bad for you. Most of the foods that we identify as “bad”, are simply low or devoid of micro-nutrients, minerals, fiber and other things like phytochemicals and protein that can be beneficial for you. These foods only become a problem when they occur frequently and with enough magnitude (frequency and magnitude!) to replace a significant enough portion of your diet that you become deficient in beneficial nutrients.
Once our nutrient needs are met, we don’t get extra credit for eating more nutritious food! It’s not as though we have a health food critic living in our esophagus that has a control box that he switches from “get leaner and healthier” to “get fatter and unhealthier” every time he spots “good” or “bad” food. Thus, a healthy diet should be inclusionary vs. exclusionary; focused around including healthy foods, not excluding “unhealthy” foods. Meet your nutrient needs, and feel free to eat things that you may have traditionally seen as “bad” in moderation; so that you are still meeting your allotted caloric intake for your weight loss goals. Don’t make the mistake of looking at foods as “good” or “bad!” Good diets can include “bad” foods and bad diets can include “good” foods. Don’t get too caught up with what you have for lunch, because it is not a singular choice that will determine the success of your health and fitness goals, it is the balanced lifestyle you commit to long term!"
http://dynamicduotraining.com/wordpress/15-nutrition-myths-you-want-to-knowallow-the-experts-to-tell/0 -
Pop tarts are not healthy.. I don't even think an iifym person would try to say they are.
Nor are they unhealthy.
An IIFYM person would say that the healthiness of a particular item, or lack thereof, is itself a myth. Only a diet can be healthy or unhealthy, that trait cannot be applied to an individual food item (barring allergies or other acute toxicity).
This is not that hard to grasp. Heath food is a myth. So is junk food.
I bolded the line with which I disagree. Based on this thread alone, it appears to be very difficult for many.
I'm having a mental meltdown as we type
Maybe it's caused by your diet. Are you consuming enough dietary fat?
I eat avocados regularly but I think my mochas are canceling them out. It's the debil sugar0 -
And as Waldo said, overall diets are healthy or unhealthy, individual foods cannot be, as foods don't exist in a vacuum, and there is not a single food on this planet that will actually provide every single nutrient a person needs to be healthy on its own.
Cow's milk, an unclean food by many definitions, is probably the closest (I believe it has the iron that human breast milk lacks, no?)0 -
bump for later. Thanks!0
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"Clean eating" is a too-simplistic view that acts as a crutch for people who cannot think very well on their own.0
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In for pseudoscience, butthurt, and shower references.0
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If this was the case, there would be a lot less arguing. Unfortunately, the discussion almost invariably goes like this:I don't feel like the "clean eaters" want the rest of the world to accept their point of view. They have a point of view and they don't expect you to agree with it, they just don't want you to belittle them or their point of view in the process.
At it's base, that seams like a reasonable request. In reality, it's not.
Clean Eater: "I eat clean because it's SOOO much better for your health."
IIFYM: "I eat a mostly whole foods diet, but once my nutritional needs are met, I also find room to enjoy a bowl of ice cream or a Pop-tart."
Clean Eater: "POP-TARTS ARE POISON! ENJOY YOUR CANCER YOU STUPID #$!@#$#!!"
That's usually why "clean eaters" tend to have less than positive reputations here.
Pop tarts are not healthy.. I don't even think an iifym person would try to say they are. But you are clearly biased.. as a lot of times it's not "after I've met my nutritional needs" It's simply eat the ice cream because you have room for it! It took me a long to to figure out what the heck iifym meant because it's not explained properly or at all in a lot of cases. at least when someone talks about eating clean they tell you what they mean. Whether or not you agree is a totally different issue. and that is what starts it. A person says here's what clean eating is.. and we all know that the next clean eater will say.. no it's this.. it's personal, based on a persons goals and dietary needs and beliefs. It's very frustrating to have your diet ripped apart and questioned. I'm sure for both sides. But it happens more, from what i see, to clean eaters then any other group on here.
ETA: Besides if a person is trying to follow a clean diet and asks about eating a certain food. it might be more helpful to tell them that this food is not considered a clean food and if they want to eat it that badly they probably need to rethink their diet of choice. Just a suggestion.. Might avoid all the bashing and arguments that inevitably follow. (or not?) lol If you ask me why i eat clean or what my idea of clean is I will tell you. You don't have to like it or agree. That's the beauty of it all.
you are all over the place with that post.
1) at least when someone talks about eating clean they tell you what they mean
Wait so there is no actually definition of clean eating - it's just up to you as to how you define it.
2) A person says here's what clean eating is.. and we all know that the next clean eater will say.. no it's this
OK - so yeah - it's just based on what you decided is clean or dirty
3) Besides if a person is trying to follow a clean diet and asks about eating a certain food. it might be more helpful to tell them that this food is not considered a clean food
Since clean eating is different to each person how can you tell someone if their food is not considered clean? I thought you said it was personal?
I found IIFYM very easy to understand, no food is the devil, plan your food so you hit your macros and micros then if there are still calories to be eaten eat them however you please. More chicken and veg if you want or pop tarts and ice cream if that is your thing. Simples.
Oh and I tried clean eating for a month ages ago - and felt no different at all. According to a lot of clean eaters I should have felt reborn. But I just missed pizza and ice cream.
And again for the record, nobody gives a crap, really, what you eat. It is when you* tell people that they aren't healthy / don't care about their health / will get cancer / won't lose weight etc etc if they don't eat clean that you* bashed.
* you = clean eaters that say these things. Just like the Op did on the first page of the original thread.0 -
Lets take a fitness approach....would an athlete training for an event....Lets say Michael Phelps (or anyone you choose) be better eating a so called "clean diet" or would he just train eating a not so clean diet (fast food)? Just want to see everyones opinions:)0
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Lets take a fitness approach....would an athlete training for an event....Lets say Michael Phelps (or anyone you choose) be better eating a so called "clean diet" or would he just train eating a not so clean diet (fast food)? Just want to see everyones opinions:)
So, there's no grey area to either approach, huh? It's all broccoli or all mcmuffins in this world?!0 -
Sure, why not...
...even though the sequel is (almost) never better than the original.
ETA: "Clean" adherents, behold and tremble in fear: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/food/diary/jofjltncb6
(...and scroll back a few days if you're really brave.)
Why, I don't get it. What is wrong with the food you eat? Most of it looked just fine to me. And if you are happy with it and your weight loss, who cares? I am sorry to disappoint, but it hardly provokes fear.
A false and stupid dichotomy has been created here and it is getting a bit ridiculous. And the self-righteousness is every bit contagious on both sides.0 -
And again for the record, nobody gives a crap, really, what you eat. It is when you* tell people that they aren't healthy / don't care about their health / will get cancer / won't lose weight etc etc if they don't eat clean that you* bashed.
* you = clean eaters that say these things. Just like the Op did on the first page of the original thread.
If this particular part gets quoted another 20 pages will the "clean eaters" finally understand?????
doubtful....0 -
Exactly;)Lets take a fitness approach....would an athlete training for an event....Lets say Michael Phelps (or anyone you choose) be better eating a so called "clean diet" or would he just train eating a not so clean diet (fast food)? Just want to see everyones opinions:)
So, there's no grey area to either approach, huh? It's all broccoli or all mcmuffins in this world?!0 -
Lets take a fitness approach....would an athlete training for an event....Lets say Michael Phelps (or anyone you choose) be better eating a so called "clean diet" or would he just train eating a not so clean diet (fast food)? Just want to see everyones opinions:)
So, there's no grey area to either approach, huh? It's all broccoli or all mcmuffins in this world?!
Michael Phelps can do whatever the F he wants and should. It is all about how he feels, how it effects his performance. We are not monoliths and this is not black and white. Hear, hear for the gray.0 -
Lets take a fitness approach....would an athlete training for an event....Lets say Michael Phelps (or anyone you choose) be better eating a so called "clean diet" or would he just train eating a not so clean diet (fast food)? Just want to see everyones opinions:)
Usain Bolt claims he ate a thousand McNuggets at the Beijing Olympics.0 -
Pop tarts are not healthy..
ORLY?
IT says vitamins and minerals right on the box! LOL. Joking aside though, So assuming a 2,000 calorie day getting 10% of your daily vitamins from 10% of your calories doesn't seem too bad? Then if you add in the other pop tart and a hyooge glass of milk, I think you'd be doin' alright.0 -
still did not answer my question? So what do you think? or would you rather beat around the bush?Lets take a fitness approach....would an athlete training for an event....Lets say Michael Phelps (or anyone you choose) be better eating a so called "clean diet" or would he just train eating a not so clean diet (fast food)? Just want to see everyones opinions:)
So, there's no grey area to either approach, huh? It's all broccoli or all mcmuffins in this world?!
Michael Phelps can do whatever the F he wants and should. It is all about how he feels, how it effects his performance. We are not monoliths and this is not black and white. Hear, hear for the gray.0 -
Haha! At the olympics or training for?Lets take a fitness approach....would an athlete training for an event....Lets say Michael Phelps (or anyone you choose) be better eating a so called "clean diet" or would he just train eating a not so clean diet (fast food)? Just want to see everyones opinions:)
Usain Bolt claims he ate a thousand McNuggets at the Beijing Olympics.0 -
In...
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And again for the record, nobody gives a crap, really, what you eat. It is when you* tell people that they aren't healthy / don't care about their health / will get cancer / won't lose weight etc etc if they don't eat clean that you* bashed.
* you = clean eaters that say these things. Just like the Op did on the first page of the original thread.
If this particular part gets quoted another 20 pages will the "clean eaters" finally understand?????
doubtful....
Only if you can quote me all the examples of the above. No one has been bashed on this thread with the exception of the off-putting Obamacare comment in the beginning. No cancer, no weight gain, no you don't care.0 -
Haha! At the olympics or training for?Lets take a fitness approach....would an athlete training for an event....Lets say Michael Phelps (or anyone you choose) be better eating a so called "clean diet" or would he just train eating a not so clean diet (fast food)? Just want to see everyones opinions:)
Usain Bolt claims he ate a thousand McNuggets at the Beijing Olympics.
At. He didn't like the native food so he apparently ate almost nothing but McDonald's.0 -
From this site here:Lets take a fitness approach....would an athlete training for an event....Lets say Michael Phelps (or anyone you choose) be better eating a so called "clean diet" or would he just train eating a not so clean diet (fast food)? Just want to see everyone's opinions.
http://www.michaelphelps.net/michael-phelps-diet/
"Everyone is amazed to hear that anyone could possibly consume 12,000 calories each day, but Olympic gold medalist Michael Phelps’ diet includes lots of food when he is training. Phelps trains six days a week and exercises five hours a day, so he is using up the calories that he consumes. He revealed his typical daily diet during an interview that amazed everyone to hear that his breakfast alone includes three fried egg sandwiches with a lot of cheese, lettuce, tomato, fried onions, and mayonnaise. That is only the beginning though. He also drinks two cups of coffee, and eats a five egg omelet, one bowl of grits, which are a maize porridge, three slices of French toast with powdered sugar, and three chocolate chip pancakes.
Most people eat that much in two days, but Michael Phelps’ diet must give him the energy he needs. For lunch, he then has one pound of pasta with tomato sauce, two large ham and cheese sandwiches with mayonnaise on white bread, plus energy drinks that equal around 1,000 calories. Dinner includes another pound of pasta with sauce, a whole pizza of six or eight slices, and more energy drinks. Even cyclists in the Tour de France only consume around 8,000 to 10,000 calories per day when they are competing."0 -
still did not answer my question? So what do you think? or would you rather beat around the bush?Lets take a fitness approach....would an athlete training for an event....Lets say Michael Phelps (or anyone you choose) be better eating a so called "clean diet" or would he just train eating a not so clean diet (fast food)? Just want to see everyones opinions:)
So, there's no grey area to either approach, huh? It's all broccoli or all mcmuffins in this world?!
Michael Phelps can do whatever the F he wants and should. It is all about how he feels, how it effects his performance. We are not monoliths and this is not black and white. Hear, hear for the gray.
Apparently, all athletes eat Subway. Because it's fresh. Synonym for clean? Maybe.0 -
Good point....or they at least endorse it!
still did not answer my question? So what do you think? or would you rather beat around the bush?
Michael Phelps can do whatever the F he wants and should. It is all about how he feels, how it effects his performance. We are not monoliths and this is not black and white. Hear, hear for the gray.Lets take a fitness approach....would an athlete training for an event....Lets say Michael Phelps (or anyone you choose) be better eating a so called "clean diet" or would he just train eating a not so clean diet (fast food)? Just want to see everyones opinions:)
So, there's no grey area to either approach, huh? It's all broccoli or all mcmuffins in this world?!
Apparently, all athletes eat Subway. Because it's fresh. Synonym for clean? Maybe.0 -
Considering Michael Phelps admits to eating a mostly "dirty" diet (of 12,000 calories a day) and has more gold medals and total medals than any individual in the history of the Olympics ever, I'd say he's the poster boy for proving that "clean eating" is an unnecessary approach for health and fitness.Lets take a fitness approach....would an athlete training for an event....Lets say Michael Phelps (or anyone you choose) be better eating a so called "clean diet" or would he just train eating a not so clean diet (fast food)? Just want to see everyones opinions:)0 -
MIchael Phelps' diet, since you asked
http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/08/13/the-michael-phelps-diet-dont-try-it-at-home/
"Breakfast: Three fried-egg sandwiches loaded with cheese, lettuce, tomatoes, fried onions and mayonnaise. Two cups of coffee. One five-egg omelet. One bowl of grits. Three slices of French toast topped with powdered sugar. Three chocolate-chip pancakes.
Lunch: One pound of enriched pasta. Two large ham and cheese sandwiches with mayo on white bread. Energy drinks packing 1,000 calories.
Dinner: One pound of pasta. An entire pizza. More energy drinks. "
12000 calories a day0 -
Lets take a fitness approach....would an athlete training for an event....Lets say Michael Phelps (or anyone you choose) be better eating a so called "clean diet" or would he just train eating a not so clean diet (fast food)? Just want to see everyones opinions:)
when Arnold Schwarzenegger was in his prime and training he used to follow up his workout by eating an entire chicken and a pitcher of beer...filthy, filthy beer. And that was just his post workout recovery snack...0 -
Yes,cow's milk contains the minerals that human milk lacks.And as Waldo said, overall diets are healthy or unhealthy, individual foods cannot be, as foods don't exist in a vacuum, and there is not a single food on this planet that will actually provide every single nutrient a person needs to be healthy on its own.
Cow's milk, an unclean food by many definitions, is probably the closest (I believe it has the iron that human breast milk lacks, no?)0 -
still did not answer my question? So what do you think? or would you rather beat around the bush?Lets take a fitness approach....would an athlete training for an event....Lets say Michael Phelps (or anyone you choose) be better eating a so called "clean diet" or would he just train eating a not so clean diet (fast food)? Just want to see everyones opinions:)
So, there's no grey area to either approach, huh? It's all broccoli or all mcmuffins in this world?!
Michael Phelps can do whatever the F he wants and should. It is all about how he feels, how it effects his performance. We are not monoliths and this is not black and white. Hear, hear for the gray.
Why do you care what I think? He reportedly eats 12,000 calories a day when training. 12,000 calories. How is he an example for anyone except an elite athlete. Do I personally think people - including athletes, are better off eating a diet of less processed, rather than more processed, whole foods? Yes. I do. But I still don't care that others don't share my beliefs. They are based on my personal experience and that of others around me. I mean, really, why does anyone do something they don't believe in and think works for them? And why would I argue with other people's success even if it is not inline with my WOE? My only contribution may be and that is a big may be, if someone if failing.0
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