Are you guys for or against childhood vaccines?

Greytfish

What are "modern teenage vaccines?" The HPV and meningitis? The HPV vaccine is a pre-teen vaccine, not a teen vaccine (ideally, though you can get it later, you normally want to vaccinate prior to exposure and initial vaccination is a series, so it takes soem time) I can imagine very mature 11 year olds, I just haven't seen one in person in a long, long time.

Whether meningitis is a choice depends more on whether the child will be college bound (or in come areas, attend public high school).

Mustang_Susie

For.
I've been a nurse for 25+ years and have seen the crippling effects of polio and other diseases that could have been prevented by vaccination.

Perhaps the greatest success story in public health is the reduction of infectious diseases resulting from the use of vaccines. Routine immunization has eradicated smallpox from the globe and led to the near elimination of wild polio virus. Vaccines have reduced some preventable infectious diseases to an all-time low, and now few people experience the devastating effects of measles, pertussis, and other illnesses. Prior to approval by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), vaccines are tested extensively by scientists to ensure they are effective and safe. Vaccines are the best defense we have against infectious diseases; however, no vaccine is 100% safe or effective. Differences in the way individual immune systems react to a vaccine account for rare occasions when people are not protected following immunization or when they experience side effects.

Has the reduction occurred due to vaccination or has it occurred due to improved sanitation, better access to nourishing food and less crowding in dwellings than in the past, when people had much larger families?

I got whooping cough in 1981 in the UK (a developed country with free, high quality healthcare for the whole country). I'm one of two children, in a household with all the modern technology, hygiene, etc.

Because. I. Wasn't. Vaccinated. Against. It.

This was part of an epidemic, where all the unvaccinated kids got whooping cough. The vast majority of the kids who had been vaccinated against whooping cough didn't get whooping cough. this was the only routine vaccine I didn't get, and guess what, I didn't get any of the illnesses that I *was* vaccinated against, including measles which went around my neighbourhood infecting unvaccinated kids.

The same is true of all the other illnesses. The person you're quoting is correct. Vaccines have made many diseases a thing of the past. Except when people stop vaccinating their kids, then that puts them at risk of epidemics among unvaccinated kids, which happen a lot more often than the anti-vaccine people care to admit.

Whooping cough sucks; I really would rather have been vaccinated against it. I'm really glad I got all the other vaccines though.

Pragmatist

PatheticNoetic

I vaccinate my children because I understand science.

neandermagnon

It might interest you to know that pertussis outbreaks are more likely to affect the vaccinated than the un-vaccinated.

It would interest me. Wasn't able to find anything on google. Do you have a link to more info?

Seriously asking, not pokin' on you. Though I'll admit I'm skeptical.

I can explain - this is a common misconception based on a lack of understanding of statistics

take a hypothetical small neighbourhood school with 100 kids as an example. 95 of those kids have been vaccinated. 12 kids get whooping cough. 7 of those kids were vaccinated, 5 hadn't been vaccinated. the anti-vaccine people observe "oh look, more of the vaccinated kids got sick than the unvaccinated kids

but let's look at the big picture. 95 kids were vaccinated, only 7 of them got sick, that's 7.3% of the vaccinated kids that got sick, while 92.7% of the vaccinated kids *didn't get sick*................ 5 kids were not vaccinated, all 5 got sick. That's 100% of the unvaccinated kids who got sick and 0% of the unvaccinated kids who didn't get sick.

and of the kids who were vaccinated and still got sick, kids who didn't get the full course of vaccines (i.e. not had all the boosters they're supposed to have) are included in the statistics of vaccinated kids.

anti vaccine propagandists either don't understand statistics or they like to play with statistics to try to prove their point.

eddiesmith1

No, not misunderstanding, just re-interpreting. Like I said, it's people who get the shot who are more likely to get sick. Proper hygiene (which means not extreme in either direction) is the best way to prevent the flu. :smokin:

:huh:
How?

Hand-washing with soap and water kills germs. :flowerforyou:

Yes, I've been a nurse for 25 years.
My dry hands and broken fingernails will testify to the fact that I wash my hands.
A lot.


I wanted it explained how "the people who get the shot are more likely to get sick".
Hence, the bold type added.

I thought you might get that one, being a nurse and all. For a few days after the shot, your immune system is kinda busy, so if you get exposed to germs, you are more likely to become ill than if your immune system was ready to react at full throttle.

Empirical Evidence versus the anecdotal conclusions please.

The shot actually can (and doers for many) make you feel worse for a couple of days - beats the hell out of 5-7 bedridden and feeling like death if you ask me

In anyu case people not getting a flu shot is not a major concern
People not vaccinating (and getting the boosters) for truly dangerous and bad diseases are more my issue. all the reasoning against I have ever seen has been based on either a flawed study or even worse third and fourth hand anecdotes all of which have been debunked or proven wrong
(A couple of my longest term friends have gone down the bat**** crazy conspiracy hole in the last couple of years with Alex Jones and all the other whack jobs - I no longer talk with them and neither do most of their friends of 30-40 years- I do keep informed because I worry about one in particular but conversation is no longer possible)

eddiesmith1

I can explain - this is a common misconception based on a lack of understanding of statistics

take a hypothetical small neighbourhood school with 100 kids as an example. 95 of those kids have been vaccinated. 12 kids get whooping cough. 7 of those kids were vaccinated, 5 hadn't been vaccinated. the anti-vaccine people observe "oh look, more of the vaccinated kids got sick than the unvaccinated kids

but let's look at the big picture. 95 kids were vaccinated, only 7 of them got sick, that's 7.3% of the vaccinated kids that got sick, while 92.7% of the vaccinated kids *didn't get sick*................ 5 kids were not vaccinated, all 5 got sick. That's 100% of the unvaccinated kids who got sick and 0% of the unvaccinated kids who didn't get sick.

and of the kids who were vaccinated and still got sick, kids who didn't get the full course of vaccines (i.e. not had all the boosters they're supposed to have) are included in the statistics of vaccinated kids.

anti vaccine propagandists either don't understand statistics or they like to play with statistics to try to prove their point.

Excellent explanation. Statistics are not something most people grasp easily. You should teach them

SanteMulberry

For.
I've been a nurse for 25+ years and have seen the crippling effects of polio and other diseases that could have been prevented by vaccination.

Perhaps the greatest success story in public health is the reduction of infectious diseases resulting from the use of vaccines. Routine immunization has eradicated smallpox from the globe and led to the near elimination of wild polio virus. Vaccines have reduced some preventable infectious diseases to an all-time low, and now few people experience the devastating effects of measles, pertussis, and other illnesses. Prior to approval by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), vaccines are tested extensively by scientists to ensure they are effective and safe. Vaccines are the best defense we have against infectious diseases; however, no vaccine is 100% safe or effective. Differences in the way individual immune systems react to a vaccine account for rare occasions when people are not protected following immunization or when they experience side effects.

Has the reduction occurred due to vaccination or has it occurred due to improved sanitation, better access to nourishing food and less crowding in dwellings than in the past, when people had much larger families?

I got whooping cough in 1981 in the UK (a developed country with free, high quality healthcare for the whole country). I'm one of two children, in a household with all the modern technology, hygiene, etc.

Because. I. Wasn't. Vaccinated. Against. It.

This was part of an epidemic, where all the unvaccinated kids got whooping cough. The vast majority of the kids who had been vaccinated against whooping cough didn't get whooping cough. this was the only routine vaccine I didn't get, and guess what, I didn't get any of the illnesses that I *was* vaccinated against, including measles which went around my neighbourhood infecting unvaccinated kids.

The same is true of all the other illnesses. The person you're quoting is correct. Vaccines have made many diseases a thing of the past. Except when people stop vaccinating their kids, then that puts them at risk of epidemics among unvaccinated kids, which happen a lot more often than the anti-vaccine people care to admit.

Whooping cough sucks; I really would rather have been vaccinated against it. I'm really glad I got all the other vaccines though.

We simply cannot and will not ever have a vaccination against every infectious disease and even those which do have vaccinations available are vulnerable to the kinds of problems that were cited in the recent California outbreaks where a large majority of the victims had been fully vaccinated.

SanteMulberry

It might interest you to know that pertussis outbreaks are more likely to affect the vaccinated than the un-vaccinated.

It would interest me. Wasn't able to find anything on google. Do you have a link to more info?

Seriously asking, not pokin' on you. Though I'll admit I'm skeptical.

I can explain - this is a common misconception based on a lack of understanding of statistics

take a hypothetical small neighbourhood school with 100 kids as an example. 95 of those kids have been vaccinated. 12 kids get whooping cough. 7 of those kids were vaccinated, 5 hadn't been vaccinated. the anti-vaccine people observe "oh look, more of the vaccinated kids got sick than the unvaccinated kids

but let's look at the big picture. 95 kids were vaccinated, only 7 of them got sick, that's 7.3% of the vaccinated kids that got sick, while 92.7% of the vaccinated kids *didn't get sick*................ 5 kids were not vaccinated, all 5 got sick. That's 100% of the unvaccinated kids who got sick and 0% of the unvaccinated kids who didn't get sick.

and of the kids who were vaccinated and still got sick, kids who didn't get the full course of vaccines (i.e. not had all the boosters they're supposed to have) are included in the statistics of vaccinated kids.

anti vaccine propagandists either don't understand statistics or they like to play with statistics to try to prove their point.

Not that simple. Did you look at the study I cited?

fatfrost

There's an excellent "Penn and Teller's Bull****" on this topic.

henriettevanittersum

What are "modern teenage vaccines?" The HPV and meningitis? The HPV vaccine is a pre-teen vaccine, not a teen vaccine (ideally, though you can get it later, you normally want to vaccinate prior to exposure and initial vaccination is a series, so it takes soem time) I can imagine very mature 11 year olds, I just haven't seen one in person in a long, long time.

Whether meningitis is a choice depends more on whether the child will be college bound (or in come areas, attend public high school).

It is up to the parents to decide if they want to take their children's opininions into account. Personally, I believe my kids should be informed and encouraged to think for themselvves in all topics; not just (childhood) vaccination. We all quite enjoy our many discussions concerning different subjects! Must be our Dutch decent; 15 million opinions for 15 million people...

Woodspoon

People are still actually debating this?

If anyone is ever in any doubt as to weather childhood vaccines work or not.
Go to Africa and see what a lack of childhood vaccines do.
Thank you, end of.

KombuchaCat

I'm all for the natural approach when possible, but vaccines are where I draw the line. I think everyone should be vaccinated and would go as far as making it mandatory. If there is one part of modern medicine that is great this is it! I hate to be one to quote something sciencey on here but if you have the opporunity to watch the Frontline about vaccines which included a discussion on whether they cause autism WHICH THE ORIGINAL REPORT THAT SAID THAT WAS THE CASE HAS BEEN TOTALLY DISCREDITED watch it. I was literally standing on my living room coffee table screaming at the TV because I was so incensed by the complete and utter blindness of the people who were trying to say you should not vaccinate your children. I do not have children but if I did I would vaccinate them in a heartbeat. If you are concerned about mercury in the vaccines they can order doses without it. A woman I work with has a daughter who didn't vaccinate her kids because of all this misinformation then one got whooping cough (sorry if I spelled that wrong) and nearly died. It could have totally been avoided. Needless to say after that all 3 kids got vaccinated. There's a reason we worked so hard to irradicate these illnesses! People in 3rd world nations only dream of having the access that we do to vaccines.

marko320

I'm pro vaccine, but I'm against administering 5 of them into a little kid on the same day. I requested that they be done on multiple office visits. I'm cautious.

bjg2993

I think they are a good preventative measure and they do their job. I've never been seriously ill, in fact I don't know anyone who has contracted a disease which they were vaccinated against.

I don't agree with getting vaccinated unnecessarily though, e.g for seasonal influenza unless you are at higher risk of complications or working with people who may have it, e.g in healthcare. The vaccine for that isn't a big thing in the UK anyway, only people who need because of age or underlying health conditions it get it for free. I've never contracted it to date, so it seems a little wasteful of resources when it would be unlikely to cause any problems other than being ill for a week.

neandermagnon

It might interest you to know that pertussis outbreaks are more likely to affect the vaccinated than the un-vaccinated.

It would interest me. Wasn't able to find anything on google. Do you have a link to more info?

Seriously asking, not pokin' on you. Though I'll admit I'm skeptical.

I can explain - this is a common misconception based on a lack of understanding of statistics

take a hypothetical small neighbourhood school with 100 kids as an example. 95 of those kids have been vaccinated. 12 kids get whooping cough. 7 of those kids were vaccinated, 5 hadn't been vaccinated. the anti-vaccine people observe "oh look, more of the vaccinated kids got sick than the unvaccinated kids

but let's look at the big picture. 95 kids were vaccinated, only 7 of them got sick, that's 7.3% of the vaccinated kids that got sick, while 92.7% of the vaccinated kids *didn't get sick*................ 5 kids were not vaccinated, all 5 got sick. That's 100% of the unvaccinated kids who got sick and 0% of the unvaccinated kids who didn't get sick.

and of the kids who were vaccinated and still got sick, kids who didn't get the full course of vaccines (i.e. not had all the boosters they're supposed to have) are included in the statistics of vaccinated kids.

anti vaccine propagandists either don't understand statistics or they like to play with statistics to try to prove their point.

Not that simple. Did you look at the study I cited?

Yes. The vaccine in that study didn't cause the outbreak. The protection given by that particular kind of vaccine only lasted 4 years, leaving kids vulnerable 5 years after being given the vaccine because the protection wore off. The solution is either to develop a better vaccine or give more boosters. Judging by the context this seems to be a new kind of vaccine, as this problem is not universal, i.e. most kids in most parts of the world who get the whooping cough vaccine are protected from the disease for a lot longer than 4 years. The doctors questioned the vaccine schedule, in that it didn't give the kids adequate protection. They didn't question the use of vaccines or blame the actual vaccine for causing the illness. It's no different to the reason why doctors ensure that you've had a tetanus booster in the last ten years if you cut yourself badly, because the protection wears off after ten years. If they're not sure whether someone's had the booster in the last ten years, they give them a booster.

As for my statistics above, I mentioned that a common reason for vaccinated kids getting sick is not receiving all the required boosters. In this case the schedule didn't give the kids sufficient protection because the protection lasted for a shorter time than it was supposed to. But again, this is not an argument against vaccines or evidence for vaccines causing kids to get sick.

auddii

What are "modern teenage vaccines?" The HPV and meningitis? The HPV vaccine is a pre-teen vaccine, not a teen vaccine (ideally, though you can get it later, you normally want to vaccinate prior to exposure and initial vaccination is a series, so it takes soem time) I can imagine very mature 11 year olds, I just haven't seen one in person in a long, long time.

Whether meningitis is a choice depends more on whether the child will be college bound (or in come areas, attend public high school).

I have a friend that goes back to her high school every year to talk about getting the meningitis vaccine. She did not, and she got meningitis. She was in the hospital under an induced coma for six months, lost both of her legs, got skin grafts on 60% of her body, and the doctors wanted to take her hands, but her dad refused. She ended up only losing one finger and the tips of a couple others.

She is an incredibly strong person, and she has accomplished a hell of a lot since recovering, but still struggles every day and has been hospitalized several times since (mostly do to chronic MRSA infections and incredibly thin skin that gets damaged easily leading to massive infections resistant to most antibiotics). I think a shot would be worth avoiding that.

fast_eddie_72

I don't know enough about the Gardasil vaccine to have an opinion myself, but I remember hearing about this a while ago...

http://www.purdueexponent.org/features/article_209898d8-1f65-596d-8f12-8cfc6938bde4.html

"Diane Harper, a professor in the department of family and geriatric medicine at the University of Louisville, specializes in many fields, including gynecology, and was the leading research expert for the second and third phases of the vaccine. According to Harper, a vigorous marketing campaign was pursued to “incite the greatest fear possible” in parents of these children to promote the vaccine. Many parents, upon hearing it prevented STIs, opted to include their children in the series without considering facts which may not have been fully explained.

“Gardasil is associated with serious adverse events, including death,” Harper said. In fact, to date, 44 girls have died of the effects of the vaccine. Harper continued, “If Gardasil is given to 11-year-olds and the vaccine does not last at least 15 years, then there is no benefit – and only risk – for the young girl.”

Over 15,000 girls have reported side effects from Gardasil including paralysis which can last years or even be permanent, as well as lupus, seizures, blood clots and brain inflammation. If the HPV vaccine does not prove to be effective for more than 15 years, it will mark the failure of the most costly public health experiment in cancer control. Additionally, the vaccine has only been proven to have efficacy for five years. After this time, an additional vaccination may be necessary for protection."

Again, I'm not saying I'm against the vaccine, I'm just adding this to the conversation.

It looks like the number of adverse reactions is really, really, really small. And 97% of them are "non serious".

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Vaccines/HPV/index.html

"In the United States, post-licensure vaccine safety monitoring and evaluation are conducted independently by federal agencies and vaccine manufacturers. From June 2006-March 2013, approximately 57 million doses of HPV vaccines were distributed and VAERS received approximately 22,000 adverse event reports occurring in girls and women who received HPV vaccines; 92% were classified as “non-seriousExternal Web Site Icon.”"

22,000 out of 57,000,000. What is that, .03%? And of that number, 97% were "non serious". So "serious" reactions were 660 out of that 57,000,000? Is that .001%?

I think it's misleading to say that people are getting it " without considering facts". The facts are, it's difficult to state how small the risk is in a way that anyone can wrap their head around. It's like saying you jumped on an elevator without fully considering the facts.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/15/news/la-heb-elevator-safety-death-201112115

Do you pause for even a moment to consider the number of people who have died from elevator accidents before you get on? Probably not. I'm not saying no one has had a serious reaction to Gardasil. Clearly a small number have. But you have to look at the odds and the risk/benefit.

As for the absurd characterization of the ad campaign: of course they tried to scare people. That's how you advertise something like that. It's like saying a non smoking PSA intentionally frightened people and didn't offer any of the benefits of smoking.

That reads like a story that, ironically, intends to generate unwarranted fear.

emkayelle91

I say to each their own. I don't get all bent out of shape when someone doesn't vaccinate their child, it's none of my business really. That being said I struggled my entire pregnancy about whether or not I would vaccinate; I was leaning towards not vaccinating but at the last minute I decided to do it. I still question my decision to some degree, but in the end I chose to do it solely because if my child got sick with a disease that could have been prevented, and should have died out years ago, I would NEVER be able to forgive myself.

Greytfish

What are "modern teenage vaccines?" The HPV and meningitis? The HPV vaccine is a pre-teen vaccine, not a teen vaccine (ideally, though you can get it later, you normally want to vaccinate prior to exposure and initial vaccination is a series, so it takes soem time) I can imagine very mature 11 year olds, I just haven't seen one in person in a long, long time.

Whether meningitis is a choice depends more on whether the child will be college bound (or in come areas, attend public high school).

It is up to the parents to decide if they want to take their children's opininions into account. Personally, I believe my kids should be informed and encouraged to think for themselvves in all topics; not just (childhood) vaccination. We all quite enjoy our many discussions concerning different subjects! Must be our Dutch decent; 15 million opinions for 15 million people...

That's a brilliantly non-responsive answer.

Regardless, there's a difference between having an opinion and making a decision. I would always allow my child to have an opinion, but at 11 they lack the education and expereince to make decisions of great magnitude.

inktink

I follow my instincts. For the most part, we have done all childhood vaccines, minus the flu shot for my 20 month old. Some I refused to do all in one visit, but rather took him back for each shot, one at time (seperate visits).

The flu shot I refuse because one, he's breastfed and receives antibodies through my milk (I'm forced to get the vac bc I'm military), and two, because the flu rarely kills anyone (complications do). On top of that, after reading the patient insert, I don't believe that the flu vaccine approved for his age group (onle one: fluzone) is effective or well tested. To me, the risks simply do not outweigh the benefits. I'm also not convinced that the flu is nearly as detrimental to society as we are led to believe. Just my opinion.

RockWarrior84

Def in

as for the question I am pro-vaccine. Look at response from scientist to a blog
http://www.torontogolfnuts.com/showthread.php?s=240def9e4ffd08e5eb3e5866096ef565&t=122466

Greytfish

As for the absurd characterization of the ad campaign: of course they tried to scare people. That's how you advertise something like that. It's like saying a non smoking PSA intentionally frightened people and didn't offer any of the benefits of smoking.

That reads like a story that, ironically, intends to generate unwarranted fear.

Especially considering the fact that it was perceived as preventing an STI made parents less likely to get the vaccine for their children, not more likley since parents still harbor unrealistic expectations about their children. Given how easily transmissible the virus is, even with protection and even with relatively innocent "contact" it shouldn't be a hard sell, but it is when you're talkign about 11 year olds that their parents are desperate to believe are still innocent children.

SanteMulberry

I'm pro vaccine, but I'm against administering 5 of them into a little kid on the same day. I requested that they be done on multiple office visits. I'm cautious.

A very reasonable response. I'm pro that and anti-hysteria on either side of the subject.

summertime_girl

I'm for, but I did do them staggered, so they wouldn't be so overwhelming to a little newborn system.

MapleFlavouredMaiden

Absolutely pro-vaccine. Anti-internet-blogger-hysteria-pseudo-science-bull****.

penrbrown

I was vaccinated and all I got for my trouble was zombieism. True story.

wiscck

For all of you who say you have your children vaccinated against most things, but not chicken pox, please reconsider, especially for girls! Like rubella/German measles, if a pregnant woman gets chicken pox it can cause birth defects. I was too old to get the chicken pox vaccine as a kid, but never caught it, so my gyno had me get vaccinated as an adult.

henriettevanittersum

What are "modern teenage vaccines?" The HPV and meningitis? The HPV vaccine is a pre-teen vaccine, not a teen vaccine (ideally, though you can get it later, you normally want to vaccinate prior to exposure and initial vaccination is a series, so it takes soem time) I can imagine very mature 11 year olds, I just haven't seen one in person in a long, long time.

Whether meningitis is a choice depends more on whether the child will be college bound (or in come areas, attend public high school).

It is up to the parents to decide if they want to take their children's opininions into account. Personally, I believe my kids should be informed and encouraged to think for themselvves in all topics; not just (childhood) vaccination. We all quite enjoy our many discussions concerning different subjects! Must be our Dutch decent; 15 million opinions for 15 million people...

That's a brilliantly non-responsive answer.

Regardless, there's a difference between having an opinion and making a decision. I would always allow my child to have an opinion, but at 11 they lack the education and expereince to make decisions of great magnitude.

I wasn't aware this was a question? Poster already answered their own question.

"Regardless, there's a difference between having an opinion and making a decision. I would always allow my child to have an opinion, but at 11 they lack the education and expereince to make decisions of great magnitude."

Which is why I said the parents decide ultimately.

SanteMulberry

Absolutely pro-vaccine. Anti-internet-blogger-hysteria-pseudo-science-bull****.

Did you read either of the articles (by medical professionals and researchers) that I cited. Reasonable people exist on both sides of the debate. Let's take the anger and huffiness out of the discussion, shall we?

emergencyninja

this thread will go well.

That sums up my thoughts .