Everything in moderation

jofjltncb6

Moderation kills.

Extremism kills more.

likitisplit

I have to totally agree with tennisdude2004's post:

"What may be addictive to one person may not be to another. Hence why most of the population can function normally whilst including alcohol into their lives and others cannot.

Seems a bit strange that we cannot accept that food can be addictive."

There is lots of research on food addiction from reputable sources on the internet that addresses just this issue. Some people are able to keep a pint of vodka, for example, in their liquor cabinet and are able to have a drink or two periodically and not consume the entire bottle in one sitting just as some people are able to have a bag of Reese's peanut butter cups in their pantry and only consume one and not feel compelled to eat the entire bag in one sitting. Personally (and this is just my opinion), both of these things equate to an addiction.

Food is not addictive. We are born and start consuming food. We are educated in various ways by parents, schools and others and are given habits about eating. A baby boy is not born hooked on the food he/she eats. It just becomes a habit which varies between people to other extremes

Drugs on the other hand are addictive. People are not born with a drug/tobacco addiction, just like they arent born with a food addiction. However, they try tobacco for the first time and they can be addicted because of the substance. Sugar for example isnt addictive. People dont eat bags of plain sugar to satisfy their 'addiction'. They eat other sugary foods simply because they have bad habits and they tell their own self they need more.

This is boring (why can't people look for the research themselves? and why do people feel so threatened by the idea of hyper-palatable food activating addiction mechanisms? Dopamine is a big part of addiction and no-one denies that palatable food has a dopamine response) but here are some studies for you (are actually there any counter-studies out there that show that people cannot possibly have an addictive response to palatable food, or is it just a knee-jerk reaction?):

Neural correlates of food addiction: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21464344

Weight gain is associated with reduced striatal response to palatable food.: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20881128

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/94/2/367.short - "The hypothesis that food has evolved from a necessity and a boring staple to an object of desire and a substance of abuse has been debated for decades (1). However, over the past 10 y, empirical studies have revealed overlaps between maladaptive food intake patterns, which are sometimes seen in obesity, and drug addiction (2). As a result, “addiction” to palatable food has been suggested, with neurochemical and behavioral similarities seen in both human studies and in animal models (2, 3). In laboratory animals, signs of opiate-like withdrawal can be seen after administration of naloxone in cases in which the animals have a history of chronic overconsumption of sucrose. Furthermore, cross-tolerance and sensitization have been reported between alcohol, amphetamine, or cocaine and the overconsumption of sucrose. With these behaviors are concomitant changes in the mesolimbic dopamine and opioid systems that are consistent with the effects seen in response to most drugs of abuse, although the animals are dependent on a palatable food. Human studies have been conducted using psychometric tools to characterize food addiction (the Yale Food Addiction Scale) (4), with the findings suggesting increased neural activation in reward-related brain regions as a correlate of food addiction score (3). Other work has linked obesity with neural indications of addiction (5). Collectively, on the basis of these and other complementary data it is plausible that an addictive response to palatable food may, in part, promote increased food intake that can sometimes lead to obesity."

Overlapping Neuronal Circuits in Addiction and Obesity: http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/meeting_abstract/25/1_MeetingAbstracts/71.2

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/51722471_The_addiction_potential_of_hyperpalatable_foods

Because a WHOLE LOT of things excite a dopamine response. Orienting organisms toward specific simuli is what dopamine is FOR.

Also, a WHOLE LOT of things excite an endorphine response. Providing the payoff for the dopamine drive is what endorphins are for.

It's like cortisol. Yeah. It's a stress hormone. It also has a number of other functions. Mistaking one of its other functions for a stress response would be a mistake.

DamePiglet

Moderation kills the feeling of deprivation.

FIFY.

tennisdude2004

kuolo

Because a WHOLE LOT of things excite a dopamine response. Orienting organisms toward specific simuli is what dopamine is FOR.

Also, a WHOLE LOT of things excite an endorphine response. Providing the payoff for the dopamine drive is what endorphins are for.

It's like cortisol. Yeah. It's a stress hormone. It also has a number of other functions. Mistaking one of its other functions for a stress response would be a mistake.

I think your cortisol example is looking at it backwards - i.e. if an event resulted in a sudden rise in cortisol levels, yes, I would say that was a stress response to that event. The other functions are not causing the raised cortisol, so are not particularly relevant. Also not really sure how this relates to dopamine response and its role in addictive behaviours.

Are you saying that dopamine is irrelevant in drug addiction? Because my point is that if you agree that dopamine plays a role in addictions, and that certain foods can trigger dopamine responses and changes in the system that mimic those seen in drug addictions, it is at least a POSSIBILITY that the addiction model is applicable to hyper-palatable foods in some people, based on the scientific evidence available. I am unable to find any conclusive evidence that this is not the case, and have only seen counter-arguments based on what people think as opposed to actual evidence-based studies. I am open to discussion on it.

DamePiglet

Huh. I agree with the spirit of this (although I think it can be learned at any age)

I'm glad you posted this because I hope it will remind those parents who don't allow any "trigger" foods in their homes that they might be doing a disservice to their families by NOT teaching their children moderation.

I'd go so far as to add that when people put the blame on "big food corporation", they are setting an example of "how to play the victim" instead of "how to assume personal responsibility for your choices." IMO, society already has enough victims.

missdibs1

Me too Me too!!!:blushing: :laugh: :bigsmile:

missdibs1

If you know someone who says "I can't eat XYZ food because I cannot control myself when I eat it." They need to add this food to their week.

Why?

Because if you believe the 1 food you love so much is making you fat because you binge eat it, that's because you're trying to completely eliminate it. Eat the ****ing food and enjoy it in moderation! Fit it into your macros! The psychological anguish you have thinking about this food you love is far far worse than simply having a serving of it every few nights. Especially on lifting days.

This type of mentality should be used in just about everything you do!
Except of course the love you have for your family and friends! ;D

Seriously though.
All over this forum I see people demonizing food and activities.
Sugar causes diabetes so I cannot have any sugar at all.
Saturated fat causes heart disease so I cannot have saturated fat at all.
When I go bowling, I drink beer. I cannot bowl ever again.
Paleo is the only way to live.
Ketogenic diets are the only diets that work.
Strong Lifts 5x5 is the only way to lift weights.
Calisthenics rule and if you want to be lean, only do calisthenics.

All of that is total Bull****!

Do the things that make you happy in moderation!
If you restrict too much, you'll surely fail and binge on what you think is causing the issue.
If you don't try new things, you'll never know what really works and what doesn't.

Relax and live!

This is why I have a piece of chocolate every day (oh yes and sugar free whipped heavy cream as often as possible IIFYM)

Oh yes and pizza I always manage to fit in pizza

Life without pizza was not worth living (keto anyone)

YUMMLY

I'm doing quite well without pizza - it's just a matter or will power to start with (either you've got it or you haven't), after that once i weaned myself off them, I realised I was making a fuss about nothing. Lol

Hmmmmm why you would ever give up something that gives you pleasure, when you dont have to idk IIFYM (and we are duscussing MODERATION) mmmmmm pizza last week and still lost jiggle and 0.5 pounds

missdibs1

Why cant we have both?

tennisdude2004

Huh. I agree with the spirit of this (although I think it can be learned at any age)

I'm glad you posted this because I hope it will remind those parents who don't allow any "trigger" foods in their homes that they might be doing a disservice to their families by NOT teaching their children moderation.

I'd go so far as to add that when people put the blame on "big food corporation", they are setting an example of "how to play the victim" instead of "how to assume personal responsibility for your choices." IMO, society already has enough victims.

I agree in not restricting trigger foods for kids, although some kids are better at understanding moderation than others (sadly I have the latter).

I find that if we go out and my 5 year old over-eats sugary things we have to make him run behind the car on the way home just to get him to burn off the sugar.

We're not mean about it though, we never go beyond a mile radius from home.

tennisdude2004

If you know someone who says "I can't eat XYZ food because I cannot control myself when I eat it." They need to add this food to their week.

Why?

Because if you believe the 1 food you love so much is making you fat because you binge eat it, that's because you're trying to completely eliminate it. Eat the ****ing food and enjoy it in moderation! Fit it into your macros! The psychological anguish you have thinking about this food you love is far far worse than simply having a serving of it every few nights. Especially on lifting days.

This type of mentality should be used in just about everything you do!
Except of course the love you have for your family and friends! ;D

Seriously though.
All over this forum I see people demonizing food and activities.
Sugar causes diabetes so I cannot have any sugar at all.
Saturated fat causes heart disease so I cannot have saturated fat at all.
When I go bowling, I drink beer. I cannot bowl ever again.
Paleo is the only way to live.
Ketogenic diets are the only diets that work.
Strong Lifts 5x5 is the only way to lift weights.
Calisthenics rule and if you want to be lean, only do calisthenics.

All of that is total Bull****!

Do the things that make you happy in moderation!
If you restrict too much, you'll surely fail and binge on what you think is causing the issue.
If you don't try new things, you'll never know what really works and what doesn't.

Relax and live!

This is why I have a piece of chocolate every day (oh yes and sugar free whipped heavy cream as often as possible IIFYM)

Oh yes and pizza I always manage to fit in pizza

Life without pizza was not worth living (keto anyone)

YUMMLY

I'm doing quite well without pizza - it's just a matter or will power to start with (either you've got it or you haven't), after that once i weaned myself off them, I realised I was making a fuss about nothing. Lol

Hmmmmm why you would ever give up something that gives you pleasure, when you dont have to idk IIFYM (and we are duscussing MODERATION) mmmmmm pizza last week and still lost jiggle and 0.5 pounds

Because:

missdibs1

In.




Just in.



ETA: There's usually an interesting correlation between ticker marker and which side of this argument people are on. Will be interesting to see if this thread follows the same pattern.

I'm crunching numbers now.
Join dates too but that's in another chart.

Hmmmm I am too busy to follow this whole convo so forgive me if I misunderstood

But my ticker says 3 pounds lost (I have lost 90 pounds overall, prior to mfp) I am in recomp mode and my BF % is my focus Are you saying that my pizzalove and my only 3 pounds lost ticker mean I am wrong? And go:

Briargrey

When you're first starting out and trying to get into new habits, I understand wanting to seriously keep certain things away from you, but what you need to change is YOU not the foods. I have 4 kids and a spouse who don't need to be subjected to whatever eating restrictions I wanted to put on myself, and I'm a big person who leaves the house and is in contact with other people and foods and restaurants and grocery stores and all that stuff....

So I decided I wanted to be healthier more than I wanted to eat <whatever> in excess.

I decided I wanted to lose weight and exercise. So I did it.

I decided I could be around 'trigger' foods without binging. So I did it.

I decided I could eat whatever I wanted as long as it fit my calorie goals and nutrition needs. So I did it.

I decided I wasn't a victim to a 'food addiction' but an adult in control of my life. So I did it.

It's really that simple. It isn't EASY. But it's a simple concept, and you just have to get yourself in the right mental state to accept your own responsibility in the situation and do it. Some days it is more work than others. But the longer you do it, the more in control you get.

Make up your mind. Do it.

DamePiglet

Huh. I agree with the spirit of this (although I think it can be learned at any age)

I'm glad you posted this because I hope it will remind those parents who don't allow any "trigger" foods in their homes that they might be doing a disservice to their families by NOT teaching their children moderation.

I'd go so far as to add that when people put the blame on "big food corporation", they are setting an example of "how to play the victim" instead of "how to assume personal responsibility for your choices." IMO, society already has enough victims.

I agree in not restricting trigger foods for kids, although some kids are better at understanding moderation than others (sadly I have the latter).

I find that if we go out and my 5 year old over-eats sugary things we have to make him run behind the car on the way home just to get him to burn off the sugar.

We're not mean about it though, we never go beyond a mile radius from home.

You can't say, "hey 5 year old, put the second cupcake down. You've had your share"?
'Cause that lesson translates to teenage years when they start wanting big ticket items.

missdibs1

If you know someone who says "I can't eat XYZ food because I cannot control myself when I eat it." They need to add this food to their week.

Why?

Because if you believe the 1 food you love so much is making you fat because you binge eat it, that's because you're trying to completely eliminate it. Eat the ****ing food and enjoy it in moderation! Fit it into your macros! The psychological anguish you have thinking about this food you love is far far worse than simply having a serving of it every few nights. Especially on lifting days.

This type of mentality should be used in just about everything you do!
Except of course the love you have for your family and friends! ;D

Seriously though.
All over this forum I see people demonizing food and activities.
Sugar causes diabetes so I cannot have any sugar at all.
Saturated fat causes heart disease so I cannot have saturated fat at all.
When I go bowling, I drink beer. I cannot bowl ever again.
Paleo is the only way to live.
Ketogenic diets are the only diets that work.
Strong Lifts 5x5 is the only way to lift weights.
Calisthenics rule and if you want to be lean, only do calisthenics.

All of that is total Bull****!

Do the things that make you happy in moderation!
If you restrict too much, you'll surely fail and binge on what you think is causing the issue.
If you don't try new things, you'll never know what really works and what doesn't.

Relax and live!

This is why I have a piece of chocolate every day (oh yes and sugar free whipped heavy cream as often as possible IIFYM)

Oh yes and pizza I always manage to fit in pizza

Life without pizza was not worth living (keto anyone)

YUMMLY

I'm doing quite well without pizza - it's just a matter or will power to start with (either you've got it or you haven't), after that once i weaned myself off them, I realised I was making a fuss about nothing. Lol

Hmmmmm why you would ever give up something that gives you pleasure, when you dont have to idk IIFYM (and we are duscussing MODERATION) mmmmmm pizza last week and still lost jiggle and 0.5 pounds

Because:

ahhhhh I forgot to tell you I am a heathen I have read the confession and a bit of confusius too Still love pizza

tennisdude2004

Are you telling me that at the age of 6 he won't just get-it and not want things in excess - damn.

Kids are little sh*ts (mine is) the other day as a reward for a good day at school I bought him a kinder egg. The store had them on a 2 for 1 offer and he noticed the other one in the fridge. Obviously he wanted that one as well and the merry hell we went through for the next 10 minutes. Made me think that in life no good deed ever goes unpunished.

Tonight I am going to read him this thread on moderation as a bedtime story - hopefully it will sink in. lol

DamePiglet

Are you telling me that at the age of 6 he won't just get-it and not want things in excess - damn.

Kids are little sh*ts (mine is) the other day as a reward for a good day at school I bought him a kinder egg. The store had them on a 2 for 1 offer and he noticed the other one in the fridge. Obviously he wanted that one as well and the merry hell we went through for the next 10 minutes. Made me think that in life no good deed ever goes unpunished.

Tonight I am going to read him this thread on moderation as a bedtime story - hopefully it will sink in. lol

Read him this thread??!! Good grief! You couldn't think of a less Draconian punishment?!

ETA: please let the mrs. do the disciplining! :laugh:

jofjltncb6

In.




Just in.



ETA: There's usually an interesting correlation between ticker marker and which side of this argument people are on. Will be interesting to see if this thread follows the same pattern.

I'm crunching numbers now.
Join dates too but that's in another chart.

Hmmmm I am too busy to follow this whole convo so forgive me if I misunderstood

But my ticker says 3 pounds lost (I have lost 90 pounds overall, prior to mfp) I am in recomp mode and my BF % is my focus Are you saying that my pizzalove and my only 3 pounds lost ticker mean I am wrong? And go:

There will always be outliers to the correlation. A couple of months ago, when I ended a bulk and started a cut, my ticker marker was on the other side too.

My point was just that on this subject, there is an interesting trend *in general* between the two sides of the argument and the ticker marker. This isn't a judgment of who is "right" and who is "wrong" either...but the correlation remains.

It's just something I've found interesting in my almost-3 years on MFP. Does it mean anything? Probably not...but it's still interesting.

DamePiglet

[/quote]

Because:



[/quote]

Helloitsdan

Lol