Dairy Alarmism
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I wish that someone making the natural argument would identify rules through which we can define what all is natural and not, and then we can examine them. Otherwise, it sounds rather similar to claiming that being genetically programmed to taste cilantro as a super tasty addition to a dish (i.e., correctly ;-) ), vs. like a metal door or whatever people who hate cilantro taste is either inherently natural or not and taking a position on cilantro based on that.
Ohh, I live with one of those who claims cilantro tastes like soap. The next time I'm looking to pick a fight, a philosophical debate on the "rightness" of cilantro is definitely on the table! :laugh:0 -
It's not weird. It's also not weird to drink milk. It's not weird when humans do it, and it's not weird when other animals do it (and plenty of other animals will drink milk if it's available, even from other types of animals.)
Just because we do it and make it normal doesn't negate the whole weirdness of the whole thing lol. Milk is meant for babies and when they grow up practically all mammals aside from those humans with the lactose tolerance mutation lose the ability to digest lactose. So yes being able to drink milk beyond infancy isn't the norm and is weird. And from another species...yeah. If there was a story about a mother breast feeding her 13 year old son that would make the news, but a cow nope lol. I`m not saying we shouldn't have dairy because it's weird just that it's weird lol. And humans are omnivores why would it be weird to eat meat and plants?
Why is it strange? We eat all manners of different species, and all different parts of those species. We are humans, we are the apex predators, due to the fact that we've developed technology to overcome our inherent weaknesses. We eat honey, which is bee vomit. We drink milk from cows, goats, yaks, and pretty much any animal that can be milked. Buffalo mozzarella isn't called that because it's from New York, it's because it's made from buffalo milk. We eat what we can derive nourishment from, which in the case of our incredibly adaptable system, is pretty much anything we can get our hands on.
I agree but have to admit it's really strange to be using the milk of another species. No one would want to drink human milk beyond infancy but no one bats an eye about cows milk that's considered totally normal lolDairy is fine if your body produces the enzyme lactase. The very recent evolution of the ability to digest dairy products in adulthood is fascinating... this trait has evolved in populations with a long history of dairy farming/herding, e.g. Europeans, Masai (in Africa)... what's most interesting is that this trait evolved at least twice, i.e. separately in both those populations, and it may be the case that it's evolved separately in other dairy/herding populations (the alternative is that gene flow between populations resulted in the trait spreading from one population to another,but it's been demonstrated in scientific studies that the European mutation and Masai mutation for digesting dairy as adults are different and arose separately).
Anyway, whether you find that kind of thing interesting or not, the ability to digest lactose is quite closely tied to ethnic origin (although it's not 100% because of gene flow and archaic genes sticking around) so if your ancestors over the last few thousand years were dairy farmers or herders, chances are you can digest dairy just fine, and there's no reason to avoid it. If your ancestors from this time period didn't have anything to do with dairy, then there's a high probability that you can't digest dairy and in that case you should avoid it. But usually people who are lactose intolerant know about it without being told this information due to getting sick when they eat dairy.
Dairy allergy is separate to lactose intolerance and while I'd love to know the evolutionary history of allergy (which is probably a defence against parasitic infection) I don't know much about it or examples of any particular populations it evolved in. But if you're allergic to milk that's another reason not to drink it.
Unfortunately there's a lot of pseudoscience against milk because both the vegan crowd and the paleo crowd hate on it. There are few things that these two groups agree on, but hatred of dairy products is one. And both groups will tell you "milk is for baby cows not for humans" they also both tend to ignore or be unaware of the fact that humans are highly adaptable in terms of diet, and the ability to digest dairy products has evolved in populations with a long enough history of dairy farming/herding.
I, personally, am from the British Isles and the Britain a history of dairy farming going back at least 5000 years; I can digest dairy just fine and will continue to consume dairy products
:drinker: @ dairy products and the lactase persistence gene
tl;dr: if dairy makes you sick don't eat/drink it, if it doesn't and you like it then eat/drink it
What's weird is when humans arbitrarily cut out specific foods or food groups that are part of our natural diet. That you don't see in any other species. You never see a tiger pass up a meal because it's an antelope instead of a wild boar. They don't pick and choose.
Drinking milk isn't weird.
You want to know what's weird?
Feeding your baby for the first six months solely using modified sweat glands that shoot food from your body. That is really freaky if you think about it. I mean, there they are sitting up on their own and they are 100% flesh of your flesh because you are now producing the meal-replacement-beverage-that-tops-them-all from your boobies.0 -
lol - "outrageous" hahahahaha!
english isnt my first language, sorry if i chose the wrong word.
Try and build modern civilization without the "slavery" of animals
i was merely replying to the person i quoted, stating that it is in fact slavery.
and, although beside the point, more modern doesnt necessarily mean better.I'm enslaved 4 dogs as we speak.......I'm going to hell.
im sure you treat your dogs as well as family members and not like objects that you use and abuse, then toss aside when they no longer have anything to give you.cows =/= people
while that is very perceptive of you, who are we to decide which lives are important and which lives arent? every life is precious and cows are sentient beings who feel pain, fear, loss, anxiety. that the majority of humankind does not acknowledge this does not mean its not true.
you can hate me all you want but the facts remain, so even if you dont care, at least acknowledge them.
We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.0 -
Aside from anything else about the health and/or moral benefits and demerits of dairy, calling the practice of animal husbandry "enslavement" trivializes the experience of humans currently and formerly held in bondage.
en·slave·ment
enˈslāvmənt/
noun
noun: enslavement; plural noun: enslavements
1.
the action of making someone a slave; subjugation.
synonyms: slavery, servitude, bondage, forced labor;
exploitation, oppression, bonds, chains, fetters, shackles
check, check, check, check.. how are dairy farms not slavery again? oh wait.. you think its absolutely outrageous when it happens to one species but perfectly fine when it happens to another species, after all.. the latter benefits you.
So I grew some tomatoes last year and kept their babies. I then sliced into their guts and harvested their seeds. I forced my plants to grown where I want them to, when I want them to and then I force them to produce as much as they can until the poor parent plant is exhausted. I let it freeze to death when the first fall frost hits.
Oh, and I will sometimes eat their babies only moments after ripping them from the nurturing embrace of the parent.
I've begun the cycle again this year of forced growth, maturation and death. I look forward to gathering the fruits of my slaving ways.
If those dairy cows only knew how good they had it.
They're coming back for revenge.
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It is intended for baby cows, not humans. you're an adult, time to get off the tit.
My milk comes in a container.0 -
We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.
I never really understood why human lives are precious and other lives aren't ...0 -
They're all gross.How does eating the flesh, the unborn embryos or the seeds of another species ok but milk is out of the question?
Explain that logic to me, please!
You would refuse to eat sunflower seeds because that's "gross"?
Candy-coated and chocolate-covered is the best way to eat sunflower seeds
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We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.
I never really understood why human lives are precious and other lives aren't ...
Other lives are precious, just not as precious as humans. And honestly, some lives aren't so precious, imo. If you step on an ant, do you hold a funeral?0 -
Honestly, I actively try not to step on aunts.We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.
I never really understood why human lives are precious and other lives aren't ...
Other lives are precious, just not as precious as humans. And honestly, some lives aren't so precious, imo. If you step on an ant, do you hold a funeral?
And, again, why is human life more precious? What is so special about human life? If we were out in the wild, we would not be the top of the food chain ...
I'm not saying no one should eat meat, since that's the cycle of life and all, but human life is no more precious than any other life. We just have the means to protect ourselves with houses and guns. And even those things aren't always enough. People in the Orlando area lately are being mauled left and right by bears.0 -
Honestly, I actively try not to step on aunts.We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.
I never really understood why human lives are precious and other lives aren't ...
Other lives are precious, just not as precious as humans. And honestly, some lives aren't so precious, imo. If you step on an ant, do you hold a funeral?
And, again, why is human life more precious? What is so special about human life? If we were out in the wild, we would not be the top of the food chain ...
I'm not saying no one should eat meat, since that's the cycle of life and all, but human life is no more precious than any other life. We just have the means to protect ourselves with houses and guns. And even those things aren't always enough. People in the Orlando area lately are being mauled left and right by bears.
Every life is precious. That doesn't mean that lions should stop eating meat.
However, the moral question of which lives are more valuable is an interesting one. Let's say you have an owl and a crow that are both injured. Neither species are endangered. You have the resources to save one. Which do you save?0 -
Then you've completely missed the point. Wild boar and antelopes are both natural prey for tigers. A tiger that's hungry won't watch a wild boar go by and remain hungry because it's waiting for an antelope. When they are hungry they will eat the first food that they find that they normally eat. I find it weird that humans will stay hungry and bypass food that humans naturally and normally eat for purely arbitrary reasons.
Yeah my cat will drink milk if it is available (among other things) lol, but afterwards she ends up sick with diarrhea. Now that she isn't a kitten it's not part of her normal diet. And for most of the world's population who are lactose intolerant dairy is not something they can tolerate either without getting sick so I would hardly call it a necessary food group. Their bodies sure don't want it lol. I fail to see the big deal about a tiger eating wild boar vs antelope. They're carnivores they eat flesh.
It's not weird. It's also not weird to drink milk. It's not weird when humans do it, and it's not weird when other animals do it (and plenty of other animals will drink milk if it's available, even from other types of animals.)
Just because we do it and make it normal doesn't negate the whole weirdness of the whole thing lol. Milk is meant for babies and when they grow up practically all mammals aside from those humans with the lactose tolerance mutation lose the ability to digest lactose. So yes being able to drink milk beyond infancy isn't the norm and is weird. And from another species...yeah. If there was a story about a mother breast feeding her 13 year old son that would make the news, but a cow nope lol. I`m not saying we shouldn't have dairy because it's weird just that it's weird lol. And humans are omnivores why would it be weird to eat meat and plants?
Why is it strange? We eat all manners of different species, and all different parts of those species. We are humans, we are the apex predators, due to the fact that we've developed technology to overcome our inherent weaknesses. We eat honey, which is bee vomit. We drink milk from cows, goats, yaks, and pretty much any animal that can be milked. Buffalo mozzarella isn't called that because it's from New York, it's because it's made from buffalo milk. We eat what we can derive nourishment from, which in the case of our incredibly adaptable system, is pretty much anything we can get our hands on.
I agree but have to admit it's really strange to be using the milk of another species. No one would want to drink human milk beyond infancy but no one bats an eye about cows milk that's considered totally normal lolDairy is fine if your body produces the enzyme lactase. The very recent evolution of the ability to digest dairy products in adulthood is fascinating... this trait has evolved in populations with a long history of dairy farming/herding, e.g. Europeans, Masai (in Africa)... what's most interesting is that this trait evolved at least twice, i.e. separately in both those populations, and it may be the case that it's evolved separately in other dairy/herding populations (the alternative is that gene flow between populations resulted in the trait spreading from one population to another,but it's been demonstrated in scientific studies that the European mutation and Masai mutation for digesting dairy as adults are different and arose separately).
Anyway, whether you find that kind of thing interesting or not, the ability to digest lactose is quite closely tied to ethnic origin (although it's not 100% because of gene flow and archaic genes sticking around) so if your ancestors over the last few thousand years were dairy farmers or herders, chances are you can digest dairy just fine, and there's no reason to avoid it. If your ancestors from this time period didn't have anything to do with dairy, then there's a high probability that you can't digest dairy and in that case you should avoid it. But usually people who are lactose intolerant know about it without being told this information due to getting sick when they eat dairy.
Dairy allergy is separate to lactose intolerance and while I'd love to know the evolutionary history of allergy (which is probably a defence against parasitic infection) I don't know much about it or examples of any particular populations it evolved in. But if you're allergic to milk that's another reason not to drink it.
Unfortunately there's a lot of pseudoscience against milk because both the vegan crowd and the paleo crowd hate on it. There are few things that these two groups agree on, but hatred of dairy products is one. And both groups will tell you "milk is for baby cows not for humans" they also both tend to ignore or be unaware of the fact that humans are highly adaptable in terms of diet, and the ability to digest dairy products has evolved in populations with a long enough history of dairy farming/herding.
I, personally, am from the British Isles and the Britain a history of dairy farming going back at least 5000 years; I can digest dairy just fine and will continue to consume dairy products
:drinker: @ dairy products and the lactase persistence gene
tl;dr: if dairy makes you sick don't eat/drink it, if it doesn't and you like it then eat/drink it
What's weird is when humans arbitrarily cut out specific foods or food groups that are part of our natural diet. That you don't see in any other species. You never see a tiger pass up a meal because it's an antelope instead of a wild boar. They don't pick and choose.
Like insect larva. We've historically eaten quite a bit of those.0 -
Honestly, I actively try not to step on aunts.We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.
I never really understood why human lives are precious and other lives aren't ...
Other lives are precious, just not as precious as humans. And honestly, some lives aren't so precious, imo. If you step on an ant, do you hold a funeral?
And, again, why is human life more precious? What is so special about human life? If we were out in the wild, we would not be the top of the food chain ...
I'm not saying no one should eat meat, since that's the cycle of life and all, but human life is no more precious than any other life. We just have the means to protect ourselves with houses and guns. And even those things aren't always enough. People in the Orlando area lately are being mauled left and right by bears.
For me it goes like this:
Humans > Primates & Dolphins > dogs & cats & pigs & horses > other mammals > birds, fish reptiles > insects and gross-looking creatures
Why?
Intelligence/Reason0 -
Speaking of that same tiger lol...The tiger would only hunt and eat when it's actually hungry. If it wasn't hungry it would let that wild boar go by. Humans on the other hand will eat for a whole bunch of reasons that have nothing to do with actual hunger. Yeah humans have weird dietary habits in general that's for sure.
Then you've completely missed the point. Wild boar and antelopes are both natural prey for tigers. A tiger that's hungry won't watch a wild boar go by and remain hungry because it's waiting for an antelope. When they are hungry they will eat the first food that they find that they normally eat. I find it weird that humans will stay hungry and bypass food that humans naturally and normally eat for purely arbitrary reasons.
Yeah my cat will drink milk if it is available (among other things) lol, but afterwards she ends up sick with diarrhea. Now that she isn't a kitten it's not part of her normal diet. And for most of the world's population who are lactose intolerant dairy is not something they can tolerate either without getting sick so I would hardly call it a necessary food group. Their bodies sure don't want it lol. I fail to see the big deal about a tiger eating wild boar vs antelope. They're carnivores they eat flesh.
It's not weird. It's also not weird to drink milk. It's not weird when humans do it, and it's not weird when other animals do it (and plenty of other animals will drink milk if it's available, even from other types of animals.)
Just because we do it and make it normal doesn't negate the whole weirdness of the whole thing lol. Milk is meant for babies and when they grow up practically all mammals aside from those humans with the lactose tolerance mutation lose the ability to digest lactose. So yes being able to drink milk beyond infancy isn't the norm and is weird. And from another species...yeah. If there was a story about a mother breast feeding her 13 year old son that would make the news, but a cow nope lol. I`m not saying we shouldn't have dairy because it's weird just that it's weird lol. And humans are omnivores why would it be weird to eat meat and plants?
Why is it strange? We eat all manners of different species, and all different parts of those species. We are humans, we are the apex predators, due to the fact that we've developed technology to overcome our inherent weaknesses. We eat honey, which is bee vomit. We drink milk from cows, goats, yaks, and pretty much any animal that can be milked. Buffalo mozzarella isn't called that because it's from New York, it's because it's made from buffalo milk. We eat what we can derive nourishment from, which in the case of our incredibly adaptable system, is pretty much anything we can get our hands on.
I agree but have to admit it's really strange to be using the milk of another species. No one would want to drink human milk beyond infancy but no one bats an eye about cows milk that's considered totally normal lolDairy is fine if your body produces the enzyme lactase. The very recent evolution of the ability to digest dairy products in adulthood is fascinating... this trait has evolved in populations with a long history of dairy farming/herding, e.g. Europeans, Masai (in Africa)... what's most interesting is that this trait evolved at least twice, i.e. separately in both those populations, and it may be the case that it's evolved separately in other dairy/herding populations (the alternative is that gene flow between populations resulted in the trait spreading from one population to another,but it's been demonstrated in scientific studies that the European mutation and Masai mutation for digesting dairy as adults are different and arose separately).
Anyway, whether you find that kind of thing interesting or not, the ability to digest lactose is quite closely tied to ethnic origin (although it's not 100% because of gene flow and archaic genes sticking around) so if your ancestors over the last few thousand years were dairy farmers or herders, chances are you can digest dairy just fine, and there's no reason to avoid it. If your ancestors from this time period didn't have anything to do with dairy, then there's a high probability that you can't digest dairy and in that case you should avoid it. But usually people who are lactose intolerant know about it without being told this information due to getting sick when they eat dairy.
Dairy allergy is separate to lactose intolerance and while I'd love to know the evolutionary history of allergy (which is probably a defence against parasitic infection) I don't know much about it or examples of any particular populations it evolved in. But if you're allergic to milk that's another reason not to drink it.
Unfortunately there's a lot of pseudoscience against milk because both the vegan crowd and the paleo crowd hate on it. There are few things that these two groups agree on, but hatred of dairy products is one. And both groups will tell you "milk is for baby cows not for humans" they also both tend to ignore or be unaware of the fact that humans are highly adaptable in terms of diet, and the ability to digest dairy products has evolved in populations with a long enough history of dairy farming/herding.
I, personally, am from the British Isles and the Britain a history of dairy farming going back at least 5000 years; I can digest dairy just fine and will continue to consume dairy products
:drinker: @ dairy products and the lactase persistence gene
tl;dr: if dairy makes you sick don't eat/drink it, if it doesn't and you like it then eat/drink it
What's weird is when humans arbitrarily cut out specific foods or food groups that are part of our natural diet. That you don't see in any other species. You never see a tiger pass up a meal because it's an antelope instead of a wild boar. They don't pick and choose.
A lot of animals will eat from boredom, zoo tigers among them.0 -
Honestly, I actively try not to step on aunts.We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.
I never really understood why human lives are precious and other lives aren't ...
Other lives are precious, just not as precious as humans. And honestly, some lives aren't so precious, imo. If you step on an ant, do you hold a funeral?
And, again, why is human life more precious? What is so special about human life? If we were out in the wild, we would not be the top of the food chain ...
I'm not saying no one should eat meat, since that's the cycle of life and all, but human life is no more precious than any other life. We just have the means to protect ourselves with houses and guns. And even those things aren't always enough. People in the Orlando area lately are being mauled left and right by bears.
For me it goes like this:
Humans > Primates & Dolphins > dogs & cats & pigs & horses > other mammals > birds, fish reptiles > insects and gross-looking creatures
Why?
Intelligence/Reason
That looks an awful lot like Matt Groening's "looks like me" ethical map.0 -
Today I learned that cows are smarter than crows...For me it goes like this:
Humans > Primates & Dolphins > dogs & cats & pigs & horses > other mammals > birds, fish reptiles > insects and gross-looking creatures
Why?
Intelligence/Reason
For me there is no distinction, a different species is a different species. We humans reign over them, if we want their flesh or milk for our food we'll take it.
However, there is such a thing as reigning gently and without abusing our privilege. I believe in that too...0 -
We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.
I never really understood why human lives are precious and other lives aren't ...
It is not (imho) a black and white precious vs not precious. Rather, I think in terms of a sliding scale of "preciousness", even within the class of "humans". Myself and my immediate family are most precious to me, closely followed by extended family and close friends, then even more extended family, distant friends, friends of friends etc etc... Animals come in at various places on the scale depending on if they are my dog, if they are intelligent (primates and dolphins rate high, for example), if they are cute (
), if they are bred for food (i.e cows and pigs) etc. Some bacteria are beneficial (we don't want to kill those) while others cause disease (kill 'em!).
So all life has some level of preciousness. But sometimes our needs/desires will put their perceived importance below a threshold where we think it OK to kill them. Even in war or self defense, we (as a society, in general) think it OK to kill other humans. That threshold will be different for different individuals: some of us think killing cows for food is acceptable to satisfy our need for food; others think we should not do so. My personal threshold on this issue has changed at least twice, from becoming vegetarian many years ago, and switching back to meat eating 8 years later.
tl;dr: it's complicated!0 -
Honestly, I actively try not to step on aunts.We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.
I never really understood why human lives are precious and other lives aren't ...
Other lives are precious, just not as precious as humans. And honestly, some lives aren't so precious, imo. If you step on an ant, do you hold a funeral?
And, again, why is human life more precious? What is so special about human life? If we were out in the wild, we would not be the top of the food chain ...
I'm not saying no one should eat meat, since that's the cycle of life and all, but human life is no more precious than any other life. We just have the means to protect ourselves with houses and guns. And even those things aren't always enough. People in the Orlando area lately are being mauled left and right by bears.
For me it goes like this:
Humans > Primates & Dolphins > dogs & cats & pigs & horses > other mammals > birds, fish reptiles > insects and gross-looking creatures
Why?
Intelligence/Reason
That looks an awful lot like Matt Groening's "looks like me" ethical map.
Are you saying I look like a dolphin? :laugh:0
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