Chivalry is dead?

EmpireBusiness

Political Correctness shot Chivalry in the face.

Everyone is a winner. No one feels the need for self improvement. Kids can't get punished for their actions. If you tell your daughter "that a girl" you're oppressing her. If you let a woman go first it's because you're trying to hit on her. If you truly act chivalrous and try to raise your kids right, you'll either be ostracized or visited by social services. I do the best I can to be a gentleman, but operate within the confines that won't set off the PC police.

Those are my two cents.

and on that note...

SheBeButLittleSheisFierce

Political Correctness shot Chivalry in the face.

Everyone is a winner. No one feels the need for self improvement. Kids can't get punished for their actions. If you tell your daughter "that a girl" you're oppressing her. If you let a woman go first it's because you're trying to hit on her. If you truly act chivalrous and try to raise your kids right, you'll either be ostracized or visited by social services. I do the best I can to be a gentleman, but operate within the confines that won't set off the PC police.

Those are my two cents.

Sadly, you are correct. I would take chivalry over pc any day.

lngbrd

I was taught to do those things by watching my Dad, he didn't have to say it. My sons are 19 and 17 and though they have made their fair share of mistakes, they have always opened doors, helped a stranger load a case of water at costco and those kinds of things. I never told them to do it, they watched me. Chivalry is still alive but dwindling pretty fast, hopefully my sons will pass it along to their kids.

The_Aly_Wei

IMHO, good manners are universal and should be attributed to everybody and returned in equal measure.

Special treatment shouldn't be portioned out simply because of gender or any other factor in my book. Just sayin.

Right.

People should be kind/polite/not @sshats because it is the right thing to do.

paperpudding

Really wouldn’t know any other way to be. Open doors (strangely some of today’s women prefer one doesn’t do this), pull out chairs, stand when a lady enters (even if she doesn’t realize she is), stop dead in my tracks when a women approaches what will become a “crossing of paths” to allow her to go first (boy this gets some peculiar stares), wait in an elevator for the ladies to exit (or outside for them to enter)…

This of course is the tip of a very large iceberg! Removing one’s hat when entering a building and certainly not wearing one at a table (eating or otherwise). Yes Sir, No Sir (that’s what you had better say when I was growing up (still is the best defense when stopped by the friendly constabulary).

To this day it is best if a man do not (in my presence) take upon himself to strike a woman (regardless of reason) whomever she may be (wife, girlfriend, “working” girl…).

I make every effort to not allow any child (of which I am aware) go without necessities (food, clothing, shelter…). Protect the weak from the abuses of the strong! Council any in need (desiring such council).

Continually with vigilance, honor, integrity and unshakable resolve be a friend to humankind!

Yes, chivalry is not dead though I suspect it is in a terminal state of devolvement.

Your first 2 paragraphs describe social etiquette or social or cultural customs - these are never static forever and are always different in different times and places - things like not wearing a hat in certain circumstances.

The second part of your post - from "to this day" - describes non tangible qualities like protecting the weak, acting with integrity - these are values probably desired in all cultures and times and places.
Very different to specific customs - 2 quite separate things.

If by "chivalry" one means general courtesy, acting with integrity, providing for children, not hitting persons weaker than you (regardless of gender) - then, yes, I'm sure we all agree such are good qualities.

If one means social customs like opening doors, pulling out chairs, standing when a lady enters a room - those are social customs and not ones everyone is in agreement with, since not everyone lives in the same place or culture.
I personally do not expect or wish a man to stand when I enter the room - that is just silly IMO and serves no purpose. It is also not a custom in the place, culture and times in which I live.

hei_ma_ma

I felt she gave me the best advice ever when she said don't forget to teach Chris the important parts about dating a girl. That when he takes her out, that should be viewed as a gift from her parents. They are allowing him to take out what they hold dearest to them. He should respect that and treat her as precious as they view her and she is his ultimate responsibility and he should treat her with the utmost respect.

I am all for respecting my fellow humans. But a girl is not the property of her parents. She is not a "gift" to be given away to the most chivalrous bidder. Neither is a boy, by the way. Boy or girl or whatever, everyone gets to decide for him/herself whether to "go out" with someone else.

rosehips60

Lord, I hope not, because if it is I wasted a lot of time trying to teach my kids the proper way to behave! One pet peeve of mine, and I bring this up because of posts that have mentioned the "older" generation, is when people get to be a certain age (and it varies) and say "I've lived long enough that I can say whatever I want!" No,no,NO! There is no statute of limitations on good manners! Most of these folks would be appalled by that behavior from a young person but feel it is perfectly acceptable for them because they are old. There, I got that off my chest, I feel better. I've also told my children that ifI ever say that or act like that they are required to remind me of the manners I taught them.

hei_ma_ma

IMHO, good manners are universal and should be attributed to everybody and returned in equal measure.

Special treatment shouldn't be portioned out simply because of gender or any other factor in my book. Just sayin.

Right.

People should be kind/polite/not @sshats because it is the right thing to do.

Yup. I ain't no lady, and I don't wanna be either. I just want to be a kind and compassionate human being who treats all other humans as I want to be treated. If you hold the door open for me, great, thanks! If you don't, no biggie. I'll try to do the same for you.

But please don't act like my body is public property (by touching me without asking), don't act like my ladyparts are the most important part of that body (hello, brain!), don't act like the purpose of my existence is to look delicate and pretty ('cuz it isn't), don't pay me less for the same work performed by a similar male human, and don't try to pigeonhole me into "traditional" female roles (I won't fit).

Gilbrod

IMHO, good manners are universal and should be attributed to everybody and returned in equal measure.

Special treatment shouldn't be portioned out simply because of gender or any other factor in my book. Just sayin.

Right.

People should be kind/polite/not @sshats because it is the right thing to do.

Yup. I ain't no lady, and I don't wanna be either. I just want to be a kind and compassionate human being who treats all other humans as I want to be treated. If you hold the door open for me, great, thanks! If you don't, no biggie. I'll try to do the same for you.

But please don't act like my body is public property (by touching me without asking), don't act like my ladyparts are the most important part of that body (hello, brain!), don't act like the purpose of my existence is to look delicate and pretty ('cuz it isn't), don't pay me less for the same work performed by a similar male human, and don't try to pigeonhole me into "traditional" female roles (I won't fit).

So does that mean you'll never be a mom as well? That's as traditional as it gets, no?

Shinpiden

Really wouldn’t know any other way to be. Open doors (strangely some of today’s women prefer one doesn’t do this), pull out chairs, stand when a lady enters (even if she doesn’t realize she is), stop dead in my tracks when a women approaches what will become a “crossing of paths” to allow her to go first (boy this gets some peculiar stares), wait in an elevator for the ladies to exit (or outside for them to enter)…

This of course is the tip of a very large iceberg! Removing one’s hat when entering a building and certainly not wearing one at a table (eating or otherwise). Yes Sir, No Sir (that’s what you had better say when I was growing up (still is the best defense when stopped by the friendly constabulary).

To this day it is best if a man do not (in my presence) take upon himself to strike a woman (regardless of reason) whomever she may be (wife, girlfriend, “working” girl…).

I make every effort to not allow any child (of which I am aware) go without necessities (food, clothing, shelter…). Protect the weak from the abuses of the strong! Council any in need (desiring such council).

Continually with vigilance, honor, integrity and unshakable resolve be a friend to humankind!

Yes, chivalry is not dead though I suspect it is in a terminal state of devolvement.

Your first 2 paragraphs describe social etiquette or social or cultural customs - these are never static forever and are always different in different times and places - things like not wearing a hat in certain circumstances.

The second part of your post - from "to this day" - describes non tangible qualities like protecting the weak, acting with integrity - these are values probably desired in all cultures and times and places.
Very different to specific customs - 2 quite separate things.

If by "chivalry" one means general courtesy, acting with integrity, providing for children, not hitting persons weaker than you (regardless of gender) - then, yes, I'm sure we all agree such are good qualities.

If one means social customs like opening doors, pulling out chairs, standing when a lady enters a room - those are social customs and not ones everyone is in agreement with, since not everyone lives in the same place or culture.
I personally do not expect or wish a man to stand when I enter the room - that is just silly IMO and serves no purpose. It is also not a custom in the place, culture and times in which I live.

Thank you so much for your critique of “my” interpretation of what is meant by “Chivalry” . Of course, I am merely a lowly uneducated sort without the advantage of such scholarly advantages as many others. In my humble attempt to convey what it is and means (and well always has) to me; clearly I have erred from that which is the understanding of paperpudding.

I have little excuse as “my” understanding only slightly mirrors that readily found online (certainly not that online sources are an end all):

chiv•al•ry ˈSHivəlrē/
noun: chivalry
1. the medieval knightly system with its religious, moral, and social code.
o historical
knights, noblemen, and horsemen collectively.
"I fought against the cream of French chivalry"
o the combination of qualities expected of an ideal knight, especially courage, honor, courtesy, justice, and a readiness to help the weak.
o courteous behavior, especially that of a man toward women.

Hmmm… “…social etiquette or social or cultural customs…” you say.

Well one might imagine “etiquette” finding its origins in a type of “courteous behavior” then too “moral, and social code” may likewise be found to example “social or cultural customs”.

As regards “…tangible qualities…” it is the matter of a “combination” of such “qualities” (“…especially courage, honor, courtesy, justice, and a readiness to help the weak.”) that, by definition,is descriptive of chivalry.

Regarding one woman’s “opinion” of what is “silly” and what is or is not serving a purpose is obviously just that… an opinion.

Regarding “today’s” custom relative to "...place, culture and times..." in which “we” live; well standing for a lady is a matter of RESPECT for a lady. Removing a hat likewise is a matter of RESPECT.

Of course, as regards serving a “purpose” - irrespective of those without due and proper etiquette to indulge the legitimate “usage” of terms and/or words – such notions as integrity, honor and respect "may" very well be lost.

The purpose – even in the use of the term “chivalry” – serves to maintain (down through the ages) honorable and worthwhile “norms”. Worthwhile in that the “values” and “ways’ of such norms PRESERVE that which man has found to be of enduring VALUE… thus therein lies the purpose.

I should hope I may have helped to shed a modicum of light upon my uneducated meandering of thought that sought only to respond to the question at hand concerning chivalry.

I do, however, appreciate your (@paperpudding) insight into the error of my thinking regarding the complex understanding of chivalry.

therealblackdahlia

There are still chivalrous and polite men out there. I actually find it more rare to come across at true lady!

paperpudding

Really wouldn’t know any other way to be. Open doors (strangely some of today’s women prefer one doesn’t do this), pull out chairs, stand when a lady enters (even if she doesn’t realize she is), stop dead in my tracks when a women approaches what will become a “crossing of paths” to allow her to go first (boy this gets some peculiar stares), wait in an elevator for the ladies to exit (or outside for them to enter)…

This of course is the tip of a very large iceberg! Removing one’s hat when entering a building and certainly not wearing one at a table (eating or otherwise). Yes Sir, No Sir (that’s what you had better say when I was growing up (still is the best defense when stopped by the friendly constabulary).

To this day it is best if a man do not (in my presence) take upon himself to strike a woman (regardless of reason) whomever she may be (wife, girlfriend, “working” girl…).

I make every effort to not allow any child (of which I am aware) go without necessities (food, clothing, shelter…). Protect the weak from the abuses of the strong! Council any in need (desiring such council).

Continually with vigilance, honor, integrity and unshakable resolve be a friend to humankind!

Yes, chivalry is not dead though I suspect it is in a terminal state of devolvement.

Your first 2 paragraphs describe social etiquette or social or cultural customs - these are never static forever and are always different in different times and places - things like not wearing a hat in certain circumstances.

The second part of your post - from "to this day" - describes non tangible qualities like protecting the weak, acting with integrity - these are values probably desired in all cultures and times and places.
Very different to specific customs - 2 quite separate things.

If by "chivalry" one means general courtesy, acting with integrity, providing for children, not hitting persons weaker than you (regardless of gender) - then, yes, I'm sure we all agree such are good qualities.

If one means social customs like opening doors, pulling out chairs, standing when a lady enters a room - those are social customs and not ones everyone is in agreement with, since not everyone lives in the same place or culture.
I personally do not expect or wish a man to stand when I enter the room - that is just silly IMO and serves no purpose. It is also not a custom in the place, culture and times in which I live.

Thank you so much for your critique of “my” interpretation of what is meant by “Chivalry” . Of course, I am merely a lowly uneducated sort without the advantage of such scholarly advantages as many others. In my humble attempt to convey what it is and means (and well always has) to me; clearly I have erred from that which is the understanding of paperpudding.

I have little excuse as “my” understanding only slightly mirrors that readily found online (certainly not that online sources are an end all):

chiv•al•ry ˈSHivəlrē/
noun: chivalry
1. the medieval knightly system with its religious, moral, and social code.
o historical
knights, noblemen, and horsemen collectively.
"I fought against the cream of French chivalry"
o the combination of qualities expected of an ideal knight, especially courage, honor, courtesy, justice, and a readiness to help the weak.
o courteous behavior, especially that of a man toward women.

Hmmm… “…social etiquette or social or cultural customs…” you say.

Well one might imagine “etiquette” finding its origins in a type of “courteous behavior” then too “moral, and social code” may likewise be found to example “social or cultural customs”.

As regards “…tangible qualities…” it is the matter of a “combination” of such “qualities” (“…especially courage, honor, courtesy, justice, and a readiness to help the weak.”) that, by definition,is descriptive of chivalry.

Regarding one woman’s “opinion” of what is “silly” and what is or is not serving a purpose is obviously just that… an opinion.

Regarding “today’s” custom relative to "...place, culture and times..." in which “we” live; well standing for a lady is a matter of RESPECT for a lady. Removing a hat likewise is a matter of RESPECT.

Of course, as regards serving a “purpose” - irrespective of those without due and proper etiquette to indulge the legitimate “usage” of terms and/or words – such notions as integrity, honor and respect "may" very well be lost.

The purpose – even in the use of the term “chivalry” – serves to maintain (down through the ages) honorable and worthwhile “norms”. Worthwhile in that the “values” and “ways’ of such norms PRESERVE that which man has found to be of enduring VALUE… thus therein lies the purpose.

I should hope I may have helped to shed a modicum of light upon my uneducated meandering of thought that sought only to respond to the question at hand concerning chivalry.

I do, however, appreciate your (@paperpudding) insight into the error of my thinking regarding the complex understanding of chivalry.

I am not sure why you are so upset about my post.

Of course, much of my post is my opinion; even so, I put 'IMO' after a point that was particularly my personal opinion to make sure this was obvious - this is a discussion of a subjective topic like courtesy and customs, not a discussion of scientific facts, like thermodynamics, so everyone's point of view is subjective opinion, not objective data.


but things like removing your hat in certain circumstances is not a universal sign of respect - it may be in your place and culture but it isn't in every place and culture.
I think that sentence is not my opinion, it is a simple factual observation. Do you not agree with that?
or do you think all places and cultures should be the same as yours?

am really not sure what you are so riled up about :indifferent:

Texusmc

Who would have thought that my musings would have caused such a debate. even if it was a friendly one.
thank you all who posted on here. It was a pleasure reading the varied responses and interpretations.