50 Shades - Great, or the Greatest?
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James alludes to Hardy the way Twilight alludes to Wuthering Heights, to highlight the similarities in their respective relationships; however to think of 50SOG as a canonical piece sends shivers up my spine. Sure 50SOG could be used (in a thesis) to show how little gender roles have evolved over time ; however, IMHO it couldn't be used as a centerpiece because it's just so poorly written. Tess was written in a different times when all women had to offer was their virtue, hence losing that resulted in their ruin. The fact that Anastasia acts as a helpless, infantilized woman says nothing about women in modern times except that there are perhaps some women who still prefer abuse and control to their own autonomy, because now it's actually a choice--not the default.Just finished narrating "Tess of the D'Urbervilles" by Thomas Hardy said to be an inspiration for 50 shades of Grey. I was interested in your comment about it being used in Feminist courses. I agree with that----would be an interesting study to compare the two books .
If you are interested .Please check "Tess" out on Audible.com at the following link
http://ow.ly/zOHlb
The perceived absent of textual quality is perhaps its genius and part of the "je ne sais pas quoi" that has rendered it so popular. Everyone hates it, but it sold very well. This, along with the social response, is worthy of study. Just look at the emergent standard of perception of what "acceptable" violence in the bedroom is - it's a go if consensual and 'safe' word bound - yet this complaint thrown at this book is laughable when considering the genre. It wasn't written as a how-to manual.
Everyone purportedly hates it, and yet is has been so successful as to be adapted into a film. Filmmaking is a terrifically capital-intensive endeavor. Never in a million years would something as theoretically terrible as this garner a film adaptation.
Clearly therefore there is something within that resonates with people, deeply. Despite the frequent, demeaning cries of hausfrau that have been launched in this thread, clearly there is meat and merit in the work. One can claim that McDonald's food is not nutritionally optimal, but no one can claim it is meritless - economics proves the lie.
What resonates appears to make people uncomfortable, and the deepest irony is that it is the self-appraised 'open-minded' who react with most censure.0 -
I "read" all three books. I agree with the first quote.It's not BDSM at all. It glorifies an abusive relationship and it's written like utter garbage. It's trashy porn.
This seems to be the general consensus of people who haven't read it.
A literary comparison of historical texts like Justine by M. de Sade or O or Sextus doesn't show a canonic difference of what is or is not BDSM.
It will be studied, thesis will be written and this is a good thing.
People keep saying, "Well, some people like being submissive." Very true. Very, very true. But the female character in this book didn't. She didn't sign the contract. She fought back against the control. SHE DIDN'T LIKE IT OR CONSENT TO IT.
Christian literally chases her across the country at one point and pulls her away from a visit with her mother -- after she specifically told him she needed space to think about things and decide what she wanted. When he was at a business meeting in New York, she went out for a drink with her best friend and he cut his business short, hopped on a plane and came back to Seattle for no other reason than to yell at her and then give her the cold shoulder for a week. The premise was that she was unsafe even though she was surrounded by armed security in a public place.
She used the safe word when she became emotionally overwhelmed in a sexual situation and he was mean and cold towards her for a week because of it. Wouldn't talk to her, wouldn't have sex with her and made her feel like utter crap (excuse me for using that word in reference to this book). Through the entire series, she does nothing but try to get him to stop being that way.
The women reading this book and enjoying it claim it's a great love story and that Christian "changes for Ana" and stops being a dom. The entire point of the book is that Christian needs to be "cured" of being a dom, that he's a dom only because he's emotionally damaged, was basically molested as a teenager and needs someone to love him out of it.
The message is that no matter how horribly a man treats you, if you JUST LOVE HIM ENOUGH he will change and be good to you.
And add to that how absolutely obnoxious both characters were ... Of course they were both just so incredibly hot that every man in the book was trying to get into Ana's pants and every woman was trying to get into Christian's. I don't know how either of them managed to walk a city block without getting raped, their sexual magnetism was so strong. And they were both ridiculously insecure and whiny and awful.
It's strange because surfers, for instance, may be hobbyists. On the weekends, they grab their surfboards, and hit the beach. Maybe evenings too. For all the fun, very few people actually live the "surfer lifestyle".
Eschewing all forms of material success, they stereotypically work menial jobs - often sea-related - for the minimum time necessary to afford them opportunity to get back to the beach. Long hair, hearty tans, and a single-minded focus on surfing. They have their own patois, their own ethos, their own community.
Whether people dabble in power exchange or are in relationships with a specific and aberrant sexual proclivity as the focus of their interaction, hardly seems to qualify for the title 'lifestyle' as appropriated so freely herein. Indeed if people were raising their fists in rage at the inaccurate depiction of the anal sex lifestyle, it would be laughable.
The 'lifestyle' of a rural couple is going to be substantially different than that of an urban couple. Depending on their careers and interests, the stack of other factors which define their lifestyle are so vast as to render their sex lives insignificant.
It feels very strongly to come down to a claim that 'my fiction is better than your fiction,' which is a terrible reason to myopically deride the global phenomenon that is this literature.0 -
It outsold Harry Potter.
Just sayin'.
[/quote]
Don't say stupid ****. It absolutely did NOT outsell Harry Potter. Get your facts straight.0 -
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/08/01/50-shades-outsells-harry-potter_n_1727334.htmlIt outsold Harry Potter.
Just sayin'.
Don't say stupid ****. It absolutely did NOT outsell Harry Potter. Get your facts straight.
I'm sorry you're so full of anger, though. Must be tough to live that way.0 -
Interesting topic. The movie, the topic and obviously evidenced by this thread is a hot topic. If it matters, here's my two cents....
First and foremost, women need to be respected and truly loved in a relationship. This movie/book portrays reality and that reality is unsafe and inhumane. Now, that said, what is interesting to so many people is the role play part of it. That can be safe, fun and add spice to a relationship. Too many times sex gets boring in marriages and men feed themselves on porn and ladies fantasize about a more fulfilling sexual relationship. That's the curiosity displayed here by so many comments.
If a lady likes to be paddled while being told she's a naughty little girl, so be it. Someone posted earlier the rules around keeping it safe and fun and that's good. For some of you, all you need is your mate and nothing else and that's awesome. For others, you want to have some role playing and some toys and that's awesome too.
This reminds me of the movie, "The Secretary". If you haven't seen it or heard of it, look it up. Maggie Gyllenhahl (sp?) is the recipient of a very similar relationship with her boss. For me, I could never treat my wife like these movies/books suggest but I will tell you we incorporate some "extra" stuff from time to time and it's a TON of fun! Safe, fun and exciting......and we've been happily married for nearly 20 years.
To each their own, right?
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White housewives never have real kinky sex!
Exactly. Eyes closed, lights off, under the covers, missionary style only. Once a week as scheduled.
HA! Love it!!!!!!!!! I totally agree!! Have fun with each other!0 -
And, again, I will point out that when people say this book is about an abusive relationship, WE DO NOT MEAN THE SEXUAL PART.Interesting topic. The movie, the topic and obviously evidenced by this thread is a hot topic. If it matters, here's my two cents....
First and foremost, women need to be respected and truly loved in a relationship. This movie/book portrays reality and that reality is unsafe and inhumane. Now, that said, what is interesting to so many people is the role play part of it. That can be safe, fun and add spice to a relationship. Too many times sex gets boring in marriages and men feed themselves on porn and ladies fantasize about a more fulfilling sexual relationship. That's the curiosity displayed here by so many comments.
If a lady likes to be paddled while being told she's a naughty little girl, so be it. Someone posted earlier the rules around keeping it safe and fun and that's good. For some of you, all you need is your mate and nothing else and that's awesome. For others, you want to have some role playing and some toys and that's awesome too.
This reminds me of the movie, "The Secretary". If you haven't seen it or heard of it, look it up. Maggie Gyllenhahl (sp?) is the recipient of a very similar relationship with her boss. For me, I could never treat my wife like these movies/books suggest but I will tell you we incorporate some "extra" stuff from time to time and it's a TON of fun! Safe, fun and exciting......and we've been happily married for nearly 20 years.
To each their own, right?0 -
I "read" all three books. I agree with the first quote.It's not BDSM at all. It glorifies an abusive relationship and it's written like utter garbage. It's trashy porn.
This seems to be the general consensus of people who haven't read it.
A literary comparison of historical texts like Justine by M. de Sade or O or Sextus doesn't show a canonic difference of what is or is not BDSM.
It will be studied, thesis will be written and this is a good thing.
People keep saying, "Well, some people like being submissive." Very true. Very, very true. But the female character in this book didn't. She didn't sign the contract. She fought back against the control. SHE DIDN'T LIKE IT OR CONSENT TO IT.
Christian literally chases her across the country at one point and pulls her away from a visit with her mother -- after she specifically told him she needed space to think about things and decide what she wanted. When he was at a business meeting in New York, she went out for a drink with her best friend and he cut his business short, hopped on a plane and came back to Seattle for no other reason than to yell at her and then give her the cold shoulder for a week. The premise was that she was unsafe even though she was surrounded by armed security in a public place.
She used the safe word when she became emotionally overwhelmed in a sexual situation and he was mean and cold towards her for a week because of it. Wouldn't talk to her, wouldn't have sex with her and made her feel like utter crap (excuse me for using that word in reference to this book). Through the entire series, she does nothing but try to get him to stop being that way.
The women reading this book and enjoying it claim it's a great love story and that Christian "changes for Ana" and stops being a dom. The entire point of the book is that Christian needs to be "cured" of being a dom, that he's a dom only because he's emotionally damaged, was basically molested as a teenager and needs someone to love him out of it.
The message is that no matter how horribly a man treats you, if you JUST LOVE HIM ENOUGH he will change and be good to you.
And add to that how absolutely obnoxious both characters were ... Of course they were both just so incredibly hot that every man in the book was trying to get into Ana's pants and every woman was trying to get into Christian's. I don't know how either of them managed to walk a city block without getting raped, their sexual magnetism was so strong. And they were both ridiculously insecure and whiny and awful.
There might not be a "message". Sometimes a character is a character, a river just a river.0 -
There might not be a "message". Sometimes a character is a character, a river just a river.
Intentional or not, it's the message women are taking away from reading the book. Just listen to what they say about it (the ones who liked it, anyway).0 -
Interesting topic. The movie, the topic and obviously evidenced by this thread is a hot topic. If it matters, here's my two cents....
First and foremost, women need to be respected and truly loved in a relationship. This movie/book portrays reality and that reality is unsafe and inhumane. Now, that said, what is interesting to so many people is the role play part of it. That can be safe, fun and add spice to a relationship. Too many times sex gets boring in marriages and men feed themselves on porn and ladies fantasize about a more fulfilling sexual relationship. That's the curiosity displayed here by so many comments.
If a lady likes to be paddled while being told she's a naughty little girl, so be it. Someone posted earlier the rules around keeping it safe and fun and that's good. For some of you, all you need is your mate and nothing else and that's awesome. For others, you want to have some role playing and some toys and that's awesome too.
This reminds me of the movie, "The Secretary". If you haven't seen it or heard of it, look it up. Maggie Gyllenhahl (sp?) is the recipient of a very similar relationship with her boss. For me, I could never treat my wife like these movies/books suggest but I will tell you we incorporate some "extra" stuff from time to time and it's a TON of fun! Safe, fun and exciting......and we've been happily married for nearly 20 years.
To each their own, right?
Exactly! In "Secretary", when the boss/proprietor at the law firm first started taking advantage of his emotionally vulnerable, psychologically unstable, confused and broken employee, it was because of love. Well . . . lust. But over time, he solved her propensity for self harm by replacing it with a craving for injury at his loving hands. Then when he made her sit in that chair in her own filth for two or three days straight, denying/disowning everyone else in her life that cared about her, one after another as they came to plead with her to stop the self-harming behaviors - it was because of his love and his overriding altruism that she kept 'sitting in it'. Happily ever after!0 -
There might not be a "message". Sometimes a character is a character, a river just a river.
Intentional or not, it's the message women are taking away from reading the book. Just listen to what they say about it (the ones who liked it, anyway).
It is A message SOME women are taking from it. This is like saying Ulysses is about bowels, toilets and stomach issues. Society brings to text a contextual framework. If some women believe this book is about "a message of abuse" and not the characters' story possibly it comes from their social framework of understanding. How can one read archetypes into a work if those archetypes don't conceptually exist. Thus the frustration, the innocence, even the abuse are social constructs perceived through the general disdain in this conversation.0 -
Clearly you have never experienced an emotionally abusive relationship. This book is a blueprint. And every single person who has sung its praises has specifically stated it's a great story about how if you can love someone enough, that person will change. They ALL acknowledge that Christian is a bad guy in the beginning but gets better BECAUSE Ana loved him.There might not be a "message". Sometimes a character is a character, a river just a river.
Intentional or not, it's the message women are taking away from reading the book. Just listen to what they say about it (the ones who liked it, anyway).
It is A message SOME women are taking from it. This is like saying Ulysses is about bowels, toilets and stomach issues. Society brings to text a contextual framework. If some women believe this book is about "a message of abuse" and not the characters' story possibly it comes from their social framework of understanding. How can one read archetypes into a work if those archetypes don't conceptually exist. Thus the frustration, the innocence, even the abuse are social constructs perceived through the general disdain in this conversation.
Art does not exist in a vacuum. This is why there are entire college degree courses dedicated to it in its various forms, including the novel.
EL James wrote what she thought was a romance novel with "kinky" sex. What she actually wrote was exactly what narcissists do to their romantic partners and she and all her fans think this is the ideal.0 -
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/08/01/50-shades-outsells-harry-potter_n_1727334.htmlIt outsold Harry Potter.
Just sayin'.
Don't say stupid ****. It absolutely did NOT outsell Harry Potter. Get your facts straight.
I'm sorry you're so full of anger, though. Must be tough to live that way.
The article says that 50 shades outsold HP on the UK Amazon site. Not world wide sales. You have literacy issues. It must be tough going through life like that.0 -
Yes, my college degree in reading and writing is a testament to my literacy issues.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/08/01/50-shades-outsells-harry-potter_n_1727334.htmlIt outsold Harry Potter.
Just sayin'.
Don't say stupid ****. It absolutely did NOT outsell Harry Potter. Get your facts straight.
I'm sorry you're so full of anger, though. Must be tough to live that way.
The article says that 50 shades outsold HP on the UK Amazon site. Not world wide sales. You have literacy issues. It must be tough going through life like that.
But why u mad, tho?0 -
This is my understanding as well. A good BDSM relationship starts with love and trust. It doesn't start with, basically, violence, and then turn into love later. That's not what BDSM is and that's not what it's about. So, the mainstream moms who read this book and/or see the movie are all thinking about it wrong. And, that's kind of sad.
I really with people would just take the BDSM part out and look at the dynamic between the characters and Christian's actions. Seriously, he behaves like a psycho stalker/serial killer. He's SCARY and he's controlling in ways unrelated to sex. None of the objections are about how they have sex (other than it's pretty dull and poorly written). The objections are to his actual abusive behavior. And since they don't have an understanding and Ana isn't into it, it isn't her fetish. It's just one stronger, more experienced person exerting his will on an unwilling weaker, less-experienced person who is pretty much powerless to get away from him.
I mean, she DOES try to get away from him multiple times and he tracks her down, causes public scenes and pretty much forces her to go with him even when she doesn't want to.0 -
^I am neither arguing against its popularity or earning power economically. Let's be honest people will surely go and eat their McDonalds whilst watching 5oSOG, as they would with Transformers 7, or Sharnado (saw that one last night and I'd rate it a ten for entertainment value,) but that doesn't give it merit.
James alludes to Hardy the way Twilight alludes to Wuthering Heights, to highlight the similarities in their respective relationships; however to think of 50SOG as a canonical piece sends shivers up my spine. Sure 50SOG could be used (in a thesis) to show how little gender roles have evolved over time ; however, IMHO it couldn't be used as a centerpiece because it's just so poorly written. Tess was written in a different times when all women had to offer was their virtue, hence losing that resulted in their ruin. The fact that Anastasia acts as a helpless, infantilized woman says nothing about women in modern times except that there are perhaps some women who still prefer abuse and control to their own autonomy, because now it's actually a choice--not the default.Just finished narrating "Tess of the D'Urbervilles" by Thomas Hardy said to be an inspiration for 50 shades of Grey. I was interested in your comment about it being used in Feminist courses. I agree with that----would be an interesting study to compare the two books .
If you are interested .Please check "Tess" out on Audible.com at the following link
http://ow.ly/zOHlb
The perceived absent of textual quality is perhaps its genius and part of the "je ne sais pas quoi" that has rendered it so popular. Everyone hates it, but it sold very well. This, along with the social response, is worthy of study. Just look at the emergent standard of perception of what "acceptable" violence in the bedroom is - it's a go if consensual and 'safe' word bound - yet this complaint thrown at this book is laughable when considering the genre. It wasn't written as a how-to manual.
Everyone purportedly hates it, and yet is has been so successful as to be adapted into a film. Filmmaking is a terrifically capital-intensive endeavor. Never in a million years would something as theoretically terrible as this garner a film adaptation.
Clearly therefore there is something within that resonates with people, deeply. Despite the frequent, demeaning cries of hausfrau that have been launched in this thread, clearly there is meat and merit in the work. One can claim that McDonald's food is not nutritionally optimal, but no one can claim it is meritless - economics proves the lie.
What resonates appears to make people uncomfortable, and the deepest irony is that it is the self-appraised 'open-minded' who react with most censure.
As a middle aged white woman, I am its target audience; however, I know good writing and good sex, and this is neither, which has nothing to do with my moral sensibilities.0 -
Yes, my college degree in reading and writing is a testament to my literacy issues.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/08/01/50-shades-outsells-harry-potter_n_1727334.htmlIt outsold Harry Potter.
Just sayin'.
Don't say stupid ****. It absolutely did NOT outsell Harry Potter. Get your facts straight.
I'm sorry you're so full of anger, though. Must be tough to live that way.
The article says that 50 shades outsold HP on the UK Amazon site. Not world wide sales. You have literacy issues. It must be tough going through life like that.
But why u mad, tho?
I'm not mad. I just hate those horribly written books with a freaking passion, and I abhor it when people screw up the facts about their popularity.0 -
Yes, my college degree in reading and writing is a testament to my literacy issues.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/08/01/50-shades-outsells-harry-potter_n_1727334.htmlIt outsold Harry Potter.
Just sayin'.
Don't say stupid ****. It absolutely did NOT outsell Harry Potter. Get your facts straight.
I'm sorry you're so full of anger, though. Must be tough to live that way.
The article says that 50 shades outsold HP on the UK Amazon site. Not world wide sales. You have literacy issues. It must be tough going through life like that.
But why u mad, tho?
I'm not mad. I just hate those horribly written books with a freaking passion, and I abhor it when people screw up the facts about their popularity.
Which "horribly written books" in particular?
Also... what does that have to do with her literacy?0 -
^I am neither arguing against its popularity or earning power economically. Let's be honest people will surely go and eat their McDonalds whilst watching 5oSOG, as they would with Transformers 7, or Sharnado (saw that one last night and I'd rate it a ten for entertainment value,) but that doesn't give it merit.
A lot of people are watching Sharknado and its sequels, but none of them take those seriously. They see them for the terribly awful crap they are and sit back and laugh. Their awfulness is exactly what makes them good -- like Rocky Horror or Attack of the Killer Tomatoes. They're running jokes.
If 50 Shades were received in such a fashion, I'd be right there along with everyone else and it wouldn't make me so angry. What makes me angry is that I have seen a significant number of women exclaim that they are "the best books I ever read." And the people talking about what a wonderful love and redemption story they are. They are not those things and the writing is the worst I have ever seen in a published work -- and I've seen some bad writing.
They don't deserve the praise and popularity they have under the circumstances they have it. I would even accept, "You know, the writing and story weren't so good but they made me horny." That isn't what fans are saying, though.
And Goodreads reviewers have given these books a higher star rating than books like Les Miserables! I am beginning to feel like I live in Bizzarro World.0
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