Fast Food Workers Strikes = Win for better health

365andstillalive

Here's my confusion, where does your belief come from that people who work for minimum wage aren't working hard?

Probably from working with people who were lazy and sat back and rode the waves of those who worked hard. My last job I worked my butt off to get promotions and raises and bonus'. I took up the slack for a lot of people who just sat back and did the minimal amount of work and still got their raise and bonus and then complained that it wasn't "enough".

Also, I'm just going to leave this here: http://www.businessinsider.com/giving-all-americans-a-basic-income-would-end-poverty-2013-11

I feel like, in some ways, it addresses a lot of how you feel, but also looks at social solutions that would solve the problems I see (like people not having enough to eat, or being able to pay rent etc), while still giving incentive to work. There's a litany of research available on the topic if you're interested, they've even done small, controlled studies in different districts throughout about 30 different countries which you can all find online.

stevencloser

Let me repeat what I said already. Adjusted for inflation, minimum wage now is LESS than it was before mass outsourcing. It was companies thinking "hey, over there in the far east I can employ 100 people for the same amount no sane person would work for here." It was and is nothing more than to make more profits for the company, i.e. the people at the top of the company, i.e. the people who decide how much their employees get and how much they keep for themselves. If it wasn't obvious enough, these people would rather keep more to themselves than paying their employees more than they have to.

You realize you're talking about corporations when it comes to fast food workers. More specifically, publicly traded corporations whose top level management which owe a fiduciary duty to their shareholders? As a shareholder, why should I invest in your business if you are not concerned with profit?

Also, this is a pretty enlightening statement when it comes to your thoughts on the subject.

I can employ 100 people for the same amount no sane person would work for here." It was and is nothing more than to make more profits for the company

Interesting that there are people who would happily take that job at a lower wage and use it to feed their families, but no sane person here would work for that because they deserve more money. Very telling.

No sane person here would work for 8 cents per hour or whatever much sweat shops pay over there because it's unlivable. Literally. You couldn't even pay your phone bill for that here, not to speak of rent, electricity, food, etc.
Current minimum wage goes towards not being able to afford living too. Someone made the calculations in the thread. Inflation keeps rising year by year regardless, your money gets worth less, things get more expensive, yet you still make exactly the same amount of money. You end up with less and less.

Your argument boils down to "As long as there's people desperate enough to work at or below current minimum wage, having to have 2-3 jobs, overtime, working 80+ hours per week or whatever, no one should complain about minimum wage." when people having to resort to that is the exact reason why wages need to increase in the first place.
Work to live, don't live to work.

ksy1969

And once again... I get to paraphrase yet another comedian in George Carlin... this thread is an illustration of what he said about the middle class and the poor.

What the ruling class do in this country is keep the middle class and the poor fighting with each other so that they, the wealthy, can run off with all the f*cking money.

You need a billion dollars so you can roll around in it, fine. But isn't the point of taxes to redistribute wealth? Taxes are the government taking from 'you' and giving to 'us'. If Rich Uncle Pennybags shouldn't have to give any of his money to those dirty, lazy poors, then that means you think he shouldn't have to pay any taxes at all.

If you want to question me about 'how much is too much wealth', then 'how much is enough' taxes? And who are YOU to decide what is 'too much'? Two can play at that game

NO!! NO!! NO!!

The point of taxes is not to redistribute wealth. The point of taxes is to build infrastructure and defense. This is another problem that lines right up with the discussion about minimum wage. It is not the governments job to get involved with this kind of stuff. The sole purpose of taxes is for infrastructure and defense. That is all our government is for. Period. However, over the last 100 years or so it has gradually changed with each generation. Each generation wants more from the government and they are gradually getting it.

also, Rich Uncle Pennybags is giving money to the poor by creating jobs for those people. But NO, that isn't enough anymore. Now Rich Uncle Pennybags is supposed to give up even more. It used to be that was enough, but just like younger generations want more from the government, they want more free money and perks from their employers.

rosebette

Let me repeat what I said already. Adjusted for inflation, minimum wage now is LESS than it was before mass outsourcing. It was companies thinking "hey, over there in the far east I can employ 100 people for the same amount no sane person would work for here." It was and is nothing more than to make more profits for the company, i.e. the people at the top of the company, i.e. the people who decide how much their employees get and how much they keep for themselves. If it wasn't obvious enough, these people would rather keep more to themselves than paying their employees more than they have to.

You realize you're talking about corporations when it comes to fast food workers. More specifically, publicly traded corporations whose top level management which owe a fiduciary duty to their shareholders? As a shareholder, why should I invest in your business if you are not concerned with profit?

Also, this is a pretty enlightening statement when it comes to your thoughts on the subject.

I can employ 100 people for the same amount no sane person would work for here." It was and is nothing more than to make more profits for the company

Interesting that there are people who would happily take that job at a lower wage and use it to feed their families, but no sane person here would work for that because they deserve more money. Very telling.

But when you're talking about the low wages of outsourced workers, you are talking about workers who are living in countries with a lower cost of living in the U.S., and also countries with fewer labor laws. By that argument, then workers in the U.S., should be willing to work for the same wages as workers in those countries. So, if we want to "compete" with those workers, let's lower the minimum wage to $5.00 or even $3.00 an hour.

FancyPantsFran

And once again... I get to paraphrase yet another comedian in George Carlin... this thread is an illustration of what he said about the middle class and the poor.

What the ruling class do in this country is keep the middle class and the poor fighting with each other so that they, the wealthy, can run off with all the f*cking money.

You need a billion dollars so you can roll around in it, fine. But isn't the point of taxes to redistribute wealth? Taxes are the government taking from 'you' and giving to 'us'. If Rich Uncle Pennybags shouldn't have to give any of his money to those dirty, lazy poors, then that means you think he shouldn't have to pay any taxes at all.

If you want to question me about 'how much is too much wealth', then 'how much is enough' taxes? And who are YOU to decide what is 'too much'? Two can play at that game

The governments job isn't to redistubute wealth..... Although now it seems to think that....Taxes should be paid by everyone not just so called rich people... .
No one here called poor people lazy or dirty I can answer your question how much is too much for taxes... when I am paying close to 45% of my income in taxes that is WAYYYYYY too much.

I think everyone would rethink the whole tax situation if they had to write the check directly and sent it to the tax man instead of having it deducted from their check. Many people don't realize how much money is being taken in taxes and wasted.....

Its easy to pick someone's pocket because you think they should pay their fair share but would be the first ones complaining about how unfair it is if someone did that to you....

DataSeven

I have several things to express... I won't bother quoting anyone, and this will probably be my last post in this topic. I appreciate the debate, by the way, and I mean no disrespect, even though I can get a little forceful in my rhetoric. I really like arguing, and maybe I should have went to law school

To the person who said the younger generation is demanding more than ever before... my parents didn't graduate high school, they built a house, bought a car, and raised two kids on a single income for a long time. I can't even rent an apartment on a single income now, and I have a post-secondary education. They got pensions, health benefits, and we lived decently lower-middle class.

Nobody wants to hire people full time anymore, no one wants to give you a pension, no one wants to give out anything but temp work, and they want to fudge your hours so that you can work the maximum number of hours to not get any health benefits or overtime. We're only demanding what we saw our parents getting. It seems like now the money is being funnelled to the people at the top, and we are expected to accept a lower standard of living than our parents had.

A company can only make so much profit by selling people things... there is a finite population who can only consume so much. (There's a whole nother argument there about our soaring levels of obesity in the last 30 years because we as a population are being driven to consume, consume, consume! But I'll save that for another time!) Eventually the company has to cannibalize itself to keep up with the demand to return a larger bag of money to the investors every year. That means cutting benefits, layoffs, outsourcing, and fancy accounting tricks to cut down on the tax bill. Every layoff is saving the company money, but that worker now has no money to put back into the economy. Who do they think is going to buy their crap when they lay off all their workers and nobody has any money?

And the idea that taxes are a form of wealth redistribution I think is a valid point, even though I've gotten a lot of feedback that people believe the contrary. Taxes are used to build roads, bridges, fund the police, the fire fighters, the military, our public schools, medicare, social security, and creates a hell of a lot of jobs, just to name a few things. This money is used to fund things that benefit us all, and I feel like it's wealth redistribution, even though it's not cash-money that's being handed around, for the most part.

Anyway, I had fun making some of these points. I don't think I'll convert anyone, but I had fun debating. I think we can all agree, to go back to the OP before we derailed it, all of us could stand to consume less fast food

parkscs

But when you're talking about the low wages of outsourced workers, you are talking about workers who are living in countries with a lower cost of living in the U.S., and also countries with fewer labor laws. By that argument, then workers in the U.S., should be willing to work for the same wages as workers in those countries. So, if we want to "compete" with those workers, let's lower the minimum wage to $5.00 or even $3.00 an hour.

It's not a question of should - it's a question of whether they are. Putting legal issues aside, let's say I'm willing to pay $5 an hour for someone to clean my house (and Lord knows I'd hire that person if they existed, because it's a mess). By me posting an ad for that job, I'm not telling you or any other worker that they should be willing to accept that wage. I'm just making an offer - you clean my house, I give you $5 for each hour you spend. You're free to laugh at me as offering a wage that's way under market. And it's not just a lower cost of living - it's a matter of what people are willing to accept. If you look at the living conditions of unskilled labor in other countries, it's not even close to what people here experience.

There's a balance somewhere in the middle and I'm not saying the minimum wage should be abolished, but there comes a point where upping the minimum wage is just going to eliminate the job altogether. Travel to Gary, Indiana or some of the other places where we previously had a strong industrial presence and it's pretty depressing these days how many empty mills you can find that had to close up shop. It's not that mills have gone away - they've just gone overseas. Now maybe we don't want those manufacturing jobs if they would only pay $5 an hour, but by raising the minimum wage beyond the rate of inflation (and $7 to $15 is a big hike), you will continue to exclude more and more jobs. Take it a step further - if we had to pay McDonald's employees $25 an hour, you would simply see a lot fewer McDonald's, as not many customers would be willing to pay $13.99 for a quarter-pounder meal. I know I wouldn't. You wouldn't have fast food workers that are making a comfortable wage to feed their families - you'd have more people out of work and living on our already over-generous government handouts.

And it's not that those people don't work hard or struggle to get by. I'm not saying that at all. But ultimately, the wage needs to reflect the skill-set and the value someone brings to the business and it needs to be consistent with the market rate in order to make sense. Government can alter this somewhat by enforcing a minimum wage, but that influence is pretty limited without introducing a host of unintended consequences.

EMTFreakGirl

If you need a second job to keep going, you are probably looking for the wrong type of job in the first place.

Like the EMT from earlier? :huh: :noway:

JUST LIKE THAT!!!
Paramedic here, DEGREED Paramedic, and I work 4 jobs in addition to my "main" job, just to make ends ALMOST meet. Crazy.

Tigg_er

I have to say this thread is very interesting and has reveled a lot. Many people are very jealous of others success. They don't feel they deserve it. They want to take from one group and give it to another just based on what they perceive to be fair. I wonder how the same people would feel If I thought it would be fair to give some of their salary to other employees in the company ... to be fair you are making more then so and so and he /deserves more money.

Sad but this thread is just a microcosm of what is going on in our society today.

A lot of pitting one group against another in the name of fairness.

I agree with this. I had a response pages back about what it takes to start a business, the money time and money, the years of no profit because you're putting everything back into what you're starting and got scoffed at. Obviously there aren't a lot of business owners that are responding to this topic. If there were then there would be a lot more understanding instead of outrage and the "It's not FAAAAIIIIIIR!"

Not every entrepreneur came from money.

Well I am a Business Owner and I agree with the above post. I sure didn't come from money . Started my uphill battle by shoveling horse and cow sh?t for 1.30 an hour. Getting so tired of hearing give me give me give me from everywhere.

brianpperkins

$15 per hour for the 440,000 employees of McDonalds (corporate and corporate owned locations, not franchises) comes out to over 72% of annual revenues generated. That is simply unsustainable so prices for consumers would increase and every possible labor cost cutting measure possible would get implemented to include kiosks replacing clerks.

kimberlyblindsey

Agreed, I worked at Del Taco in high school, and after that it was not enough to get by, so I looked elsewhere for better pay.

northbanu

Labor, like most things in the bussiness world, is a market of supply and demand.

When people refuse to work for "x" amount of dollars, employers have to up the wages until workers are enticed to work for them.

When tons and tons of people are out of work, wages go down until the labor market dries up.

While I think minimum wage should be a livable wage, I think labor could do more to control the market.

I think that given the current trends, we will soon see unions regain there strength in helping shape the labor market.

northbanu

http://www.cnet.com/news/mcdonalds-hires-7000-touch-screen-cashiers/

Mcdonald's answer.

Funny, I was just about to bring that up. Because this whole argument is moot.

In a shockingly short number of years a whole lot of cashiers, servers, and waitstaff are going to be rendered obsolete. Touch screens for ordering will become the norm. In 15 years you'll only find waitresses at quaint, throwback diners.

I got no answer for that. But it worries me.

And such is progress. Jobs are lost and gained as the world moves. No answers are needed. It's not a problem. Not many makers of wooden wheels left, blacksmiths are "artisans", coblers a thing of the past. But we have more communication workers, telephone support personnel, web designers, etc. It's just how the ball rolls.

_KitKat_

What's that famous quote about people needing to feel the discomfort of their current situation in order to aspire to a better one?

The fact is that many people earn more because they worked hard to do so (i.e., putting themselves through night school, sacrificing personal time and relationships for classes and homework, and taking out student loans).

While I do agree that CEO pay is out of control, esp. when compared to the rest of the world, it just doesn't make sense for unskilled labor to be paid what a new college graduate might make.

I was determined to not comment but....the bolded portion above struck me.....why is it OK for a recent college graduate to earn so little, especially with the debt one takes on in this country to graduate? Wages in general are an issue and as long as the have nots and the have a little fight each other.....everyone one of them will slowly have less.

MrM27....Your statement about having to work 2 jobs to have a comfortable standard of living is not right or for the benefit of society. I know if I had to call 911 because of an emergency, I would feel much better knowing the man/woman helping my loved one was well rested and not overly stressed. Saving lives, working in dangerous situations, and under constant strain all while having the medical knowledge to save a life deserves a comfortable living wage....not extravagant but 1950-1970 middle class comfortable.

As a business owner General residential/commercial construction.....yes small businesses pay insane taxes, but it is our business practice and quite a few large successful corporations practices to retain the best most skilled employees. Training takes from profit, unreliable workers take from profit and under paid workers just don't put the effort in. Our lowest paid guy is $15 per hour...he is a laborer, unskilled but he busts his butt puts the work in and learns, the highest paid is $28 per hour all positions are full time. The work these guys do brings us a ton of business plus they are fast, efficient and great at what they do, which gibes us a great reputation and allows us to charge a fair rate. After taxes, licensing , expenses and all job costs....we standardly profit per day about 20% under our daily payroll for a 7 man crew. Look at Costco, trader joes and others that offer higher pay....they have low employee turn over and with their employees working harder and staying with them long term their labor cost per position is much lower than places like Walmart or McDonalds. Costco also follows the old business practice of the CEO earning about 10x the average employee, last thing I saw...I think their average employee earns 40k and the CEO make 400k.

Now still not sure on my stance for $15 per hour for ff workers but the economy historically shows that when the middle class down to the poor get extra money they spend which puts that same money back in to grow the economy. The rich tend to sit on their money which may help the stock market but it doesn't do much for the GDP or families like mine that own a small local business. When a family earns more, they tend to invest it in their largest asset, which is their home....that means more business for us, it can also mean more jobs because I can then support another full time crew. My family will in turn put our money back into the economy and so will those 7 new well paid employees. But if the multi-millionaire CEO in a town over gets a 2 million dollar bonus, I doubt any where local will see that money. He will even only see it on a balance sheet, it makes no difference to him except as a number on a piece of paper...most likely to never be spent by him but to either make more numbers on a balance sheet or disappear into thin air when some creative guys on wall street decide to bet on imaginary money again.

As for taxes, mine are way too high but most of these major corporations mentioned in the thread actually pay very little. I saw a interview with Warren Buffet once and something he talked about stuck with me...I can't quote him exactly but it was basically this....If a corporation claims they can't make it big and profit if taxes were to be raised, then they shouldn't be in business because they don't know how to run a company. In the 70's taxes the US corporations had to pay were extremely high .....well this is when I (Warren) made my fortune. I didn't want my companies giving all that money to uncle Sam, there were not the loopholes then that there are now, so I had one option other than giving the government the majority of the profits....I invested the money back into the company, I kept the money and it just made me richer....it also helped the economy by creating jobs. Now all you hear about is we need low corporate taxes or it will cost jobs, these guys hardly pay anything and they are not creating new jobs...they have little incentive, their money is safe...they found the loop holes and the government can't touch it.....I liked the way he said this and the very basic flaw that many believe ...major companies do not create jobs because they have extra money, they invest and park it the majority of the time. Yes companies do expand but in recent decades it is normally not in the labor forces interest.

Also for those that are anti assistance programs how are you OK with the wages some of these major companies pay. No person should be OK with someone working full-time and the company pays so little that the government must subsidize the wage. This is tax payer money that is contributing to reducing the companies labor costs, companies that pay little (percentage wise) in taxes compared with small businesses. It is not the tax payers responsibility to help these corporations reduce labor costs, give them every way possible to skip out on taxes and then hope and wish that they will contribute for the benefit of society.

In America many scream that Europe and Canada pay too many taxes....but they have healthcare, social programs that make ours look non existent, cheap or no cost higher education (an educated society is better for society as a whole).... Number wise they have better health stats, life expectancies, lower infant death and a higher rate of happiness and have much more family time and less stress due to finances compared to the average American..... Many times they also actually pay a lot less than an american worker into their system when costs are factored in. I am not a socialist but anything that benefits society as a whole is a good idea.

Insomnia is to blame for typos, poor grammar and spelling. I need sleep and am not correcting any of this post. I normally do not discuss politics on MFP, but I can see the pros and con's of this situation. Watching people at times argue against their own best interest shocks me at times. The question is not "why should he/she that works FF earn almost as much as I do when I worked hard and went to college?".... The question is" Why the hell did I take on massive student debt, work my butt off and nobody pays a comfortable living wage?" All wages stagnated and the value of the dollar went down, but corporate profits soared and executive pay increased at an extremely accelerated rate. All while these companies continued to pay less and less into the system. If your going to get angry that some may be lazy and may get a free hand out....first explain why during the collapse the CEO's that bankrupted companies and took government welfare still took home bonuses of more money than many will ever see in their life no matter how hard they work. People fight with the wrong people because they can be spinned by a few snappy party lines. I have no problem with profiting from hard work but if I bankrupt my company then ask the government to save it because I made wild bets....I don't deserve a bonus.....I should be charged with fraud for losing my investors money and fired. My assets should also be liquidated, for all the damage I caused the economy from my poor judgment and greed.

Now sleep...sorry so long