consult with a dietician - key lessons learne

ladyhawk00

Bump to read later - Thanks

Rebeccasluckyduck

Great information. Thanks so much!

shaunshaikh

The bullet points that stormie posted do not match up with the nutritionist's guidelines in the OP.

skinnyb450

Thank you for sharing - Awesome

SHBoss1673

The bullet points that stormie posted do not match up with the nutritionist's guidelines in the OP.

could you elaborate? I'm not seeing any major differences. Some minor ones, but nothing earth shattering.

shaunshaikh

My layman's interpretations of the conclusions from the International Society of Sports Nutrition position on Nutrient Timing:

1. Long (60-90 minutes), Hard (moderate to high intensity) exercise depletes your energy, and that can be offset by well-timed nutrition.
2. During exercise, you should consume of 1-2 cups of a Gatorade like substance every 15-20 minutes.
3. Reduce your intake of Fructose, or "Fruit Sugar"
4. Having protein in ALL meals in your diet, but especially post-workout, is good and promotes muscle recovery. (They suggest 0.33 to 0.5 grams per pound per day)
5. Having 6-20 grams of Essential Amino Acids (muscle building blocks that you cannot make on your own) and 30-40 grams of carbs within THREE hours of your exercise help to build muscle.
6. Daily Protein/Carb supplements post exercise does everything good for our muscles
7. Milk protein sources, like whey and casein, digest differently (OK? and?)
8. Creatine helps your muscles
9. Small amounts of fat is not harmful and can actually be beneficial around exercise
10. Regardless of timing, having lots of meals with both protein and carbs is good for recovery. They suggest a 3:1 carb to protein ratio.

The main differences I see are:

1. There is no emphasis on eating some significant portion of your exercise calories immediately after workout
2. The extreme 45 minute window of opportunity is more like three hours
3. While they say there are benefits to immediate feeding, they don't try to imply that it's bad if you don't. They say in a couple bullet points that regular feeding throughout the day was just as important.
4. They actually went out of their way to say that milk protein sources shoudl be treated differently, even though the OP's nutritionist said that those were the way to go.
5. Plus finally, their ratio of macros is much different. He is promoting almost a 1:1 carb to protein ratio. This article promotes a 3:1 carb to protein ratio. Within the guidelines of this article, I would be somewhere around a 60:20:20 diet.

corpus_validum

no no, BMR is not maintenance, you can still be above BMR and lose weight. In fact, as you approach a healthy fat level, you SHOULD be above BMR to keep the weight loss steady and healthy.

My bad...I screwed that up. Meant to say maintenance. And yes, net calories should be above BMR but below maintenance for weight loss.

kdiamond

This is very good info, all of it. My Crossfit trainer who has numerous certifications, master's in science, etc., etc., says the exact same things.

Edited to say, I also agree the "window of opportunity" is a little much, but you should eat relatively soon after a heavy workout session, i.e. weight training.

writtenINthestars

Very interesting, thanks for sharing!

I actually have a consult with a dietician tomorrow myself...curious if they'll say the same sort of things..

NotAllWhoWanderAreLost

bump --- very sensible advice! Can't wait for the follow-up posts! :drinker:

daybyday

bump

Annie5859

Great post! Thanks for sharing.

bsoxluvr

Great post! I REALLY needed to hear that about my NET calories. I have been eating 1500 a day, but I don't eat back my calories because I'm stuck in the head game. I hope I catch your posts after you next meeting!

Coyla

I'm curious about post-workout eating. I have NOT been doing this. I mean, I'll usually snack on something, but I've never tried to eat back 75% of what I burned.

I also read somewhere that exercising in the morning before eating breakfast or eating a very low carb diet can help the body burn fat during high intensity workouts. The argument is, if the body has no carbs to burn during a high impact session, it'll use up fat stores instead. (This does cause a loss of performance, however.)

Not sure if it's true or not, but it's interesting.

SHBoss1673

My layman's interpretations of the conclusions from the International Society of Sports Nutrition position on Nutrient Timing:

1. Long (60-90 minutes), Hard (moderate to high intensity) exercise depletes your energy, and that can be offset by well-timed nutrition.
2. During exercise, you should consume of 1-2 cups of a Gatorade like substance every 15-20 minutes.
3. Reduce your intake of Fructose, or "Fruit Sugar"
4. Having protein in ALL meals in your diet, but especially post-workout, is good and promotes muscle recovery. (They suggest 0.33 to 0.5 grams per pound per day)
5. Having 6-20 grams of Essential Amino Acids (muscle building blocks that you cannot make on your own) and 30-40 grams of carbs within THREE hours of your exercise help to build muscle.
6. Daily Protein/Carb supplements post exercise does everything good for our muscles
7. Milk protein sources, like whey and casein, digest differently (OK? and?)
8. Creatine helps your muscles
9. Small amounts of fat is not harmful and can actually be beneficial around exercise
10. Regardless of timing, having lots of meals with both protein and carbs is good for recovery. They suggest a 3:1 carb to protein ratio.

The main differences I see are:

1. There is no emphasis on eating some significant portion of your exercise calories immediately after workout
2. The extreme 45 minute window of opportunity is more like three hours
3. While they say there are benefits to immediate feeding, they don't try to imply that it's bad if you don't. They say in a couple bullet points that regular feeding throughout the day was just as important.
4. They actually went out of their way to say that milk protein sources shoudl be treated differently, even though the OP's nutritionist said that those were the way to go.
5. Plus finally, their ratio of macros is much different. He is promoting almost a 1:1 carb to protein ratio. This article promotes a 3:1 carb to protein ratio. Within the guidelines of this article, I would be somewhere around a 60:20:20 diet.

I'm going to go over these one at a time because there are some good points but also some incorrect statements in there. I'm not going to pull from the bullet points though, as they could be misleading for some. I've read the whole position paper, and the statements generally line up pretty well.

1. There is actually. The article actually talks of athletes benefiting from upwards 1.5 grams of carbs per kg body weight post exercise for optimal muscle glycogen re-synthesis.

2. No, throughout the article they actually point out multiple times that the window is even shorter than that (15 to 30 minutes ideally) but if you wait over 2 hours it essentially eliminates the possibility of taking advantage of the increased muscle glycogen re-synthesis process. See the section of the post-exercise nutrition part labeled Maximization of muscle glycogen re-synthesis for more details.

3. It's not specifically bad for you if you don't immediately refeed after an intense workout. It just makes it take longer for your body to replenish your glycogen stores, which means the next day, you'll probably have less energy. It also plays a factor in muscle building, as if you don't refeed muscles after an intense anaerobic workout, you're not giving them the protein and amino acids they need to grow. This doesn't translate into anything bad happening really, just that you're kind of wasting the workout (or part of it at least).

4. They mentioned that whey and casein are two different types of protein that are better at different things, they didn't say whether one was bad over another, but generally whey is better for post-resistance workouts as it has a faster digestion time which means faster to the muscle sites.

5. I think you're confusing his overall carbs/protein/fat ratios for a full day with the post exercise ratios listed on the paper. I couldn't find anywhere where the dietitian mentioned post-exercise ratios of carbs to protein, only totals for the day (at the end). The paper, likewise, doesn't talk at all about total daily macronutrient requirements, thus nowhere do the two contradict that I found. Unless it was said and I just missed it. I went back and re-read it but didn't find anything.

hope this clears up your questions. I can provide more info on the side if you like. It's a good topic, I love discussing it. I've done a fair bit of research into this topic, and I'd estimate at well over 100 studies and research papers on it. I'll say this, most of them are all variations on the same conclusions (the exact amounts of carbs and proteins, ratios and timing is different, but generally within certain constraints, they all agree with the paper listed above).

SHBoss1673

I'm curious about post-workout eating. I have NOT been doing this. I mean, I'll usually snack on something, but I've never tried to eat back 75% of what I burned.

I also read somewhere that exercising in the morning before eating breakfast or eating a very low carb diet can help the body burn fat during high intensity workouts. The argument is, if the body has no carbs to burn during a high impact session, it'll use up fat stores instead. (This does cause a loss of performance, however.)

Not sure if it's true or not, but it's interesting.

what you should take away from this (IMHO) is that if you're doing exercise that's aerobic, moderate and less than an hour, very little (if any) re-feeding is required. This is more for people either working out pretty hard for longer periods (over an hour at at least 70% max HR), or working at extremes for periods(88% Max HR and above) of 15 minutes to 30 minutes or doing heavy resistance training. Other than that, you'd receive very little benefit from immediate re-feeding, although it wouldn't hurt either.

And you would re-feed with different ratios if you were doing heavy resistance as opposed to anaerobic cardio work (I.E. an advanced spin class vs doing weight training to failure)

mgcab300

bump

jen051279

bump

pandafoo

wow! i'm glad this topic has sparked some conversation. i'll write a post later tonight about what i learned tonight from ryan, but in the meantime, i wanted to say that there are many many resources out there with differing viewpoints on diet, nutrition, exercise, etc. it's up to us to decide what things we will accept as true and what behaviors we will adopt. one person or resource may have a POV that is incorrect or just different, but it doesn't mean all the other things that were said should be discounted. i think it's important to keep on learning about how our bodies operate, what good eating and fitness looks like, and all this other important stuff -- and as we learn more, our paradigms, attitudes, and actions may change. even so, it doesn't necessarily diminish the value of the beliefs/truths that we used to operate by.

with all the wealth of info out there, i think it's good to be open-minded, do your own research and determine what aspects of health and nutrition that you will embrace. i'm just here to present some food for thought.

Sharont213

bump

I have been wondering lately if I need to up my net calories.. I have been stalled more or less since the beginning of the year. Yes, I have off days but am probably about 80%-20% on being within the guidelines here. This is really interesting .. thanks

dublvision2

bump

dragonflies6

thank you for posting this....makes me understand what it is i should be doing.

pandafoo

pastas are not bad! same thing with white rice! that's a very surprising thing that i learned today. that's a little teaser of what's coming up.

but i wanted to first clarify what ryan had said about eating 75% of exercise calories back. he suggested 75% because he saw how meticulous i'm being on mfp with tracking food and exercise. normally he would recommend eating 50% back (and my trainer does this too), as people tend to overestimate calories burned and underestimate calories eaten. whatever percentage you choose to eat back, the main concept behind what ryan said is that it's important to do so. the rationale is that you do not want your daily deficit to be too low so that your net calories are below BMR. thanks to banks and taso for addressing the questions that some of you had about BMR and maintenance calories! as for the window of opportunity, this may be controversial, but regardless of whether you believe this window is 45 minutes or 4 hours long or nonexistent, i think many of us would agree it makes sense to refuel muscles after an intense workout. similarly, many would agree that it's important to eat breakfast and a pre-workout snack.

anyway, now we're back to pasta! tonight's discussion with ryan is best summed up by QUALITY and QUANTITY of CARBS. i'm going to include key points from the handouts he gave me, and give sources along the way.

1) FOOD AND DIGESTION
-the 3 major macronutrients are carbs, protein, and fat. the preferred fuel is glucose. excess glucose can be stored for later use as glycogen, and if needed, fat.
-carbs (not including fiber) is digested quickly compared to protein or fat. protein and fat delay food digestion and increase satiety
-carbs (not incl. fiber) has greatest impact of elevating blood sugar and blood insulin levels. insulin is a hormone that promotes fat storage and prevents fat breakdown (Champe et al. "Lippincott's Illustrated Reviews: Biochemistry" 3rd ed, 2005)
-rule: always combine protein or fat with any carb-based food to delay digestion and stabilize sugar and insulin levels

2) FOOD AND METABOLISM
-eating food increase metabolism. metabolism is increased to support digestion, a concept referred to as the thermic effect of food. (Mahan et al. "Krause's Food, Nutrition, and Diet Therapy" 11th ed. 2004). the food-associated increase in metabolism can be as much as 30% greater than the resting metabolism (Champe et al.)
-large gaps between meals increases the production of an appetite stimulating hormone called ghrelin (Champe et al.)
-the increase in metabolism varies on the type of meal consumed (carb-rich, protein-rich, or fat-rich). protein increases the metabolism the most, followed by carbs, then fat (Mahan et al.)
-rule #1: eat smaller, more frequent meals (every 3-4 hrs) to increase metabolism and control levels of ghrelin
-rule #2: incorporate protein, unless on protein restricted diet, as part of every meal to maximize increase in metabolism associated with thermic effect of food

3) CARB-BASED FOODS
-grains
-fruit
-starchy vegetables
-sweets
-milk and yogurt

it's most important to watch out for carbs, since these raise insulin the most, compared to fat or protein. be more cautious when eating foods from these carb categories.

4) GLYCEMIC INDEX and QUALITY OF CARBS
-not all carbs are created equal. glycemic index (GI) is a food scale that describes the extent to which carbs or carb-based foods increase blood glucose levels. high GI foods are those 70 and higher, medium GI foods are 56-69, and low GI foods are 55 and lower (Brown. "Nutrition Through the Life Cycle 3rd ed., 2008)
-high GI foods cause significant increases in blood sugar and insulin levels, because glucose is the most important trigger for insulin secretion (Champe et al)
-rule: always select low GI foods from non-starchy vegetables, fruits, legumes, and nuts to stabilize insulin levels and promote fat burning

i looked online, and a great resource to check the GI for foods is http://www.mendosa.com/gilists.htm. ryan provided me with a GI chart to review, and i was totally shocked to see that pastas are a low GI food! same thing with most fruits. i was also surprised to see that some wheat breads and wheat-based cereals are considered high GI foods. i asked him about simple vs. complex carbs - because i'd thought complex carbs like wheat bread and sweet potatoes were better to eat vs. fruit on its own or white rice. he explained that the nomenclature of simple vs complex is used to describe the molecular structure of foods. potatoes consist of long molecules strung together, but it's very easy to break down the molecular bonds (think of a paper circle chain whose links would be easily destroyed by scissors). so just because a food is called a complex carb doesn't mean that it's better for you. likewise, just because something is wheat-based doesn't automatically mean it's better - white rice's GI is lower than the GI of some wheat breads, and would be better at preventing a spike in sugar and insulin levels. however, wheat breads such as ezekiel bread or pumpernickel bread have a lower GI index than white rice, so it's better to choose those.

[as an aside, speaking about wheat breads, ryan gave me another handout about this. if you want to choose one, use these guidelines: look at the ingredients label, and make sure the 1st ingredient is "whole wheat." if it says "wheat flour" do not select it. whole grains are better because they're an excellent source of insoluble fiber and promote good digestive health. also, look for a symbol on the food package that says "100% whole grain" (http://wholegrainscouncil.org/whole-grain-stamp). there's another symbol like this but it doesn't have the 100%. this means the food has at least 50% whole grain, but not 100% - an example is kashi bars which ryan showed me the label for]

IMPLICATIONS of GI values? the takeaways for myself are:
a) if you choose a carb, it's better to eat a low GI food rather than high GI food (except after a workout)
b) but a low GI food, while better than a high GI food, will still be broken down faster than a protein or fat. notice how when you eat fruit, you feel hungry shortly afterwards? so regardless of whether a carb has a high or low GI, it's better to pair it with a healthy protein or fat, than to eat it on its own.
c) some carbs may be nutritionally denser (e.g., wheat cereal over white rice), but it may not be better when it comes to stabilizing sugar and insulin levels (they will have higher GI). ideally, we should eat foods that are nutritionally dense and stabilize sugar/insulin levels. but sometimes you may decide that eating foods that are more nutritionally dense is more important than stabilizing sugar levels, and vice versa. it depends on what your goals are, and this requires a balance (this bullet is my own conclusion, and not something that ryan said)

5) QUANTITY OF CARBS
-however, what's far more important than quality of carbs is the quantity. although not all carbs increase blood sugar to the same extent, it has been determined that the TOTAL AMOUNT of carbs consumed has the greatest impact on increasing blood sugar response (Mahan et al.)
-rule: portion control of carbs is the most important consideration when planning meals
-one carb serving is 15 grams of carbs OR the serving size off of the food exchange list packet for carb-based foods
-men should eat less than or equal to 4 carb servings per meal and 1-2 servings per snack
-women should eat less than or equal to 3 carb servings per meal and 1-2 servings per snack
-if you eat more carb servings than recommended, it increases the likelihood that the body will convert excess calories into fat (not a guarantee, but it is still worth noting)

ryan showed me an exchange list, and it was surprising to see what 1 carb serving equates to. for example: -1/4 bagel
-1/4 c. uncooked pasta
-1/2 c. spaghetti sauce
-1/24th of an angel food cake
-3/4 c. cereal

IMPLICATIONS that i took away?
-too much of a good thing is bad, even if it is fruit
-eat small meals frequently. sometimes it's tempting to think that if i barely eat anything throughout the day, i can gorge on a huge dinner... as long as the total calories consumed by day's end is less than calories expended, right? however, if the quantity of carbs digested during one particular meal or snack truly is the most important determinant of raising sugar and insulin levels, it would be better to space out my meals and snacks
-become familiar with what a serving size of cereal, rice, etc. looks like, so that when i go out to restaurants, i can become better at eyeballing entrees and deciding what and how much to eat

6) EATING PHILOSOPHY
actually, the 1st thing that ryan shared with me was his eating philosophy, but i thought it'd be good to share it at the end as a summary.

my approach to eating
-I am not on a "DIET"
-I eat to stabilize blood sugar and blood insulin

how do I do that?
-I stabilize blood sugar and blood insulin by eating smaller, more frequent meals every 3-4 hours, while focusing on the quality and quantity of carbs consumed at each meal

i believe his philosophy makes a lot of sense, and whether you agree or disagree with it, i think it'd be helpful to think about what your eating philosophy will be. now i see food, especially carbs, in a very different light. i probably just need a bit more time to wrap my mind around the fact that pasta can be good for me!

my next session with him will be next wednesday, so i'll keep you updated!

DavyRockhit

*-*

Angel1066

That for the info, very intresting

mmorganj

wow, thanks! that stuff about the post exercise gatorade/whey combo was very helpful, i'm never sure what to eat after a workout. i used to eat protein bars but i found they were just so high in calories and didn't help with the dehydration..

corpus_validum

Thanks for sharing all that info. I'm sure it's pretty laborious to take all those notes and then to type it here for MFP users.

And though some may not agree with every single detail he touts, but hey, as long as the plan works for YOU, that's all that matters.

bmontgomery87

The main differences I see are:

1. There is no emphasis on eating some significant portion of your exercise calories immediately after workout
2. The extreme 45 minute window of opportunity is more like three hours
3. While they say there are benefits to immediate feeding, they don't try to imply that it's bad if you don't. They say in a couple bullet points that regular feeding throughout the day was just as important.
4. They actually went out of their way to say that milk protein sources shoudl be treated differently, even though the OP's nutritionist said that those were the way to go.
5. Plus finally, their ratio of macros is much different. He is promoting almost a 1:1 carb to protein ratio. This article promotes a 3:1 carb to protein ratio. Within the guidelines of this article, I would be somewhere around a 60:20:20 diet.

That's a start. I'm not saying to not consume some carbs and protein after lifting.
I'm saying that it's not accurate for him to tell you that you need to consume these things withing 45 minutes of your workout.
I always have a shake at some point after my workout, but that window of opportunity is grossly exaggerated.

going2losebig

Thanks! this is all great information.

shelbyj72

Thanks for sharing