consult with a dietician - key lessons learne

ladyhawk00

Bump to read later - Thanks

Rebeccasluckyduck

Great information. Thanks so much!

shaunshaikh

The bullet points that stormie posted do not match up with the nutritionist's guidelines in the OP.

skinnyb450

Thank you for sharing - Awesome

SHBoss1673

The bullet points that stormie posted do not match up with the nutritionist's guidelines in the OP.

could you elaborate? I'm not seeing any major differences. Some minor ones, but nothing earth shattering.

shaunshaikh

My layman's interpretations of the conclusions from the International Society of Sports Nutrition position on Nutrient Timing:

1. Long (60-90 minutes), Hard (moderate to high intensity) exercise depletes your energy, and that can be offset by well-timed nutrition.
2. During exercise, you should consume of 1-2 cups of a Gatorade like substance every 15-20 minutes.
3. Reduce your intake of Fructose, or "Fruit Sugar"
4. Having protein in ALL meals in your diet, but especially post-workout, is good and promotes muscle recovery. (They suggest 0.33 to 0.5 grams per pound per day)
5. Having 6-20 grams of Essential Amino Acids (muscle building blocks that you cannot make on your own) and 30-40 grams of carbs within THREE hours of your exercise help to build muscle.
6. Daily Protein/Carb supplements post exercise does everything good for our muscles
7. Milk protein sources, like whey and casein, digest differently (OK? and?)
8. Creatine helps your muscles
9. Small amounts of fat is not harmful and can actually be beneficial around exercise
10. Regardless of timing, having lots of meals with both protein and carbs is good for recovery. They suggest a 3:1 carb to protein ratio.

The main differences I see are:

1. There is no emphasis on eating some significant portion of your exercise calories immediately after workout
2. The extreme 45 minute window of opportunity is more like three hours
3. While they say there are benefits to immediate feeding, they don't try to imply that it's bad if you don't. They say in a couple bullet points that regular feeding throughout the day was just as important.
4. They actually went out of their way to say that milk protein sources shoudl be treated differently, even though the OP's nutritionist said that those were the way to go.
5. Plus finally, their ratio of macros is much different. He is promoting almost a 1:1 carb to protein ratio. This article promotes a 3:1 carb to protein ratio. Within the guidelines of this article, I would be somewhere around a 60:20:20 diet.

corpus_validum

no no, BMR is not maintenance, you can still be above BMR and lose weight. In fact, as you approach a healthy fat level, you SHOULD be above BMR to keep the weight loss steady and healthy.

My bad...I screwed that up. Meant to say maintenance. And yes, net calories should be above BMR but below maintenance for weight loss.

kdiamond

This is very good info, all of it. My Crossfit trainer who has numerous certifications, master's in science, etc., etc., says the exact same things.

Edited to say, I also agree the "window of opportunity" is a little much, but you should eat relatively soon after a heavy workout session, i.e. weight training.

writtenINthestars

Very interesting, thanks for sharing!

I actually have a consult with a dietician tomorrow myself...curious if they'll say the same sort of things..

NotAllWhoWanderAreLost

bump --- very sensible advice! Can't wait for the follow-up posts! :drinker:

daybyday

bump

Annie5859

Great post! Thanks for sharing.

bsoxluvr

Great post! I REALLY needed to hear that about my NET calories. I have been eating 1500 a day, but I don't eat back my calories because I'm stuck in the head game. I hope I catch your posts after you next meeting!

Coyla

I'm curious about post-workout eating. I have NOT been doing this. I mean, I'll usually snack on something, but I've never tried to eat back 75% of what I burned.

I also read somewhere that exercising in the morning before eating breakfast or eating a very low carb diet can help the body burn fat during high intensity workouts. The argument is, if the body has no carbs to burn during a high impact session, it'll use up fat stores instead. (This does cause a loss of performance, however.)

Not sure if it's true or not, but it's interesting.

SHBoss1673

My layman's interpretations of the conclusions from the International Society of Sports Nutrition position on Nutrient Timing:

1. Long (60-90 minutes), Hard (moderate to high intensity) exercise depletes your energy, and that can be offset by well-timed nutrition.
2. During exercise, you should consume of 1-2 cups of a Gatorade like substance every 15-20 minutes.
3. Reduce your intake of Fructose, or "Fruit Sugar"
4. Having protein in ALL meals in your diet, but especially post-workout, is good and promotes muscle recovery. (They suggest 0.33 to 0.5 grams per pound per day)
5. Having 6-20 grams of Essential Amino Acids (muscle building blocks that you cannot make on your own) and 30-40 grams of carbs within THREE hours of your exercise help to build muscle.
6. Daily Protein/Carb supplements post exercise does everything good for our muscles
7. Milk protein sources, like whey and casein, digest differently (OK? and?)
8. Creatine helps your muscles
9. Small amounts of fat is not harmful and can actually be beneficial around exercise
10. Regardless of timing, having lots of meals with both protein and carbs is good for recovery. They suggest a 3:1 carb to protein ratio.

The main differences I see are:

1. There is no emphasis on eating some significant portion of your exercise calories immediately after workout
2. The extreme 45 minute window of opportunity is more like three hours
3. While they say there are benefits to immediate feeding, they don't try to imply that it's bad if you don't. They say in a couple bullet points that regular feeding throughout the day was just as important.
4. They actually went out of their way to say that milk protein sources shoudl be treated differently, even though the OP's nutritionist said that those were the way to go.
5. Plus finally, their ratio of macros is much different. He is promoting almost a 1:1 carb to protein ratio. This article promotes a 3:1 carb to protein ratio. Within the guidelines of this article, I would be somewhere around a 60:20:20 diet.

I'm going to go over these one at a time because there are some good points but also some incorrect statements in there. I'm not going to pull from the bullet points though, as they could be misleading for some. I've read the whole position paper, and the statements generally line up pretty well.

1. There is actually. The article actually talks of athletes benefiting from upwards 1.5 grams of carbs per kg body weight post exercise for optimal muscle glycogen re-synthesis.

2. No, throughout the article they actually point out multiple times that the window is even shorter than that (15 to 30 minutes ideally) but if you wait over 2 hours it essentially eliminates the possibility of taking advantage of the increased muscle glycogen re-synthesis process. See the section of the post-exercise nutrition part labeled Maximization of muscle glycogen re-synthesis for more details.

3. It's not specifically bad for you if you don't immediately refeed after an intense workout. It just makes it take longer for your body to replenish your glycogen stores, which means the next day, you'll probably have less energy. It also plays a factor in muscle building, as if you don't refeed muscles after an intense anaerobic workout, you're not giving them the protein and amino acids they need to grow. This doesn't translate into anything bad happening really, just that you're kind of wasting the workout (or part of it at least).

4. They mentioned that whey and casein are two different types of protein that are better at different things, they didn't say whether one was bad over another, but generally whey is better for post-resistance workouts as it has a faster digestion time which means faster to the muscle sites.

5. I think you're confusing his overall carbs/protein/fat ratios for a full day with the post exercise ratios listed on the paper. I couldn't find anywhere where the dietitian mentioned post-exercise ratios of carbs to protein, only totals for the day (at the end). The paper, likewise, doesn't talk at all about total daily macronutrient requirements, thus nowhere do the two contradict that I found. Unless it was said and I just missed it. I went back and re-read it but didn't find anything.

hope this clears up your questions. I can provide more info on the side if you like. It's a good topic, I love discussing it. I've done a fair bit of research into this topic, and I'd estimate at well over 100 studies and research papers on it. I'll say this, most of them are all variations on the same conclusions (the exact amounts of carbs and proteins, ratios and timing is different, but generally within certain constraints, they all agree with the paper listed above).

SHBoss1673

I'm curious about post-workout eating. I have NOT been doing this. I mean, I'll usually snack on something, but I've never tried to eat back 75% of what I burned.

I also read somewhere that exercising in the morning before eating breakfast or eating a very low carb diet can help the body burn fat during high intensity workouts. The argument is, if the body has no carbs to burn during a high impact session, it'll use up fat stores instead. (This does cause a loss of performance, however.)

Not sure if it's true or not, but it's interesting.

what you should take away from this (IMHO) is that if you're doing exercise that's aerobic, moderate and less than an hour, very little (if any) re-feeding is required. This is more for people either working out pretty hard for longer periods (over an hour at at least 70% max HR), or working at extremes for periods(88% Max HR and above) of 15 minutes to 30 minutes or doing heavy resistance training. Other than that, you'd receive very little benefit from immediate re-feeding, although it wouldn't hurt either.

And you would re-feed with different ratios if you were doing heavy resistance as opposed to anaerobic cardio work (I.E. an advanced spin class vs doing weight training to failure)

mgcab300

bump

jen051279

bump

pandafoo

wow! i'm glad this topic has sparked some conversation. i'll write a post later tonight about what i learned tonight from ryan, but in the meantime, i wanted to say that there are many many resources out there with differing viewpoints on diet, nutrition, exercise, etc. it's up to us to decide what things we will accept as true and what behaviors we will adopt. one person or resource may have a POV that is incorrect or just different, but it doesn't mean all the other things that were said should be discounted. i think it's important to keep on learning about how our bodies operate, what good eating and fitness looks like, and all this other important stuff -- and as we learn more, our paradigms, attitudes, and actions may change. even so, it doesn't necessarily diminish the value of the beliefs/truths that we used to operate by.

with all the wealth of info out there, i think it's good to be open-minded, do your own research and determine what aspects of health and nutrition that you will embrace. i'm just here to present some food for thought.

Sharont213

bump

I have been wondering lately if I need to up my net calories.. I have been stalled more or less since the beginning of the year. Yes, I have off days but am probably about 80%-20% on being within the guidelines here. This is really interesting .. thanks