the myth, starvation mode, and dont eat before bed.

registers

Before anyone says "where are the studies" here they are.... calorie restriction (CR) is an effective and reproducible intervention for increasing life span, reducing oxidative damage, enhancing stress resistance and delaying/preventing aging and age-associated diseases such as cancer in various species, including mammals (mice, rats, and non- human primates)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2815756/

um, did I miss something in this study? I read the whole thing. How does an observational study of 10 cancer patients doing short term fasting relate to what you've stated above? This study was on how fasting can effect the quality of life during the days when a person is receiving chemotherapy, not on the long term effects of an otherwise healthy person who fasts.

Exactly.

Oddly enough, I have a friend going through chemotherapy as we speak. He's exercising, eating a very healthy diet of solid, whole foods...taking supplements of chagga tea and ground canadian apricot pits...and he's in excellent shape...all the while putting on lean weight.

He's still sicker than hell during and right after...but he's not letting it affect his quality of life, and because of that, its effects are very limited.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15741046

The problem with this link is that IF is short term where as starvation mode is just another term for LTF, or more specifically Long Term Underfeeding. Two different things, Studies prove that LTF and LTU suppress both IGF1 (technically it's the GH that is suppressed) and Testoterone production while increasing cortisol production and lipogenesis. Most informed nutrition professionals have no problem with short term fasting (aka IF) I.E. < 72 hours. But when the glycogen levels plus incoming macronutrients plus energy derived from lipolysis can no longer meet TDEE requirements, then the body needs to either reduce the amount of energy it's using, or draw that energy from something else. That something else is amino acids derived from proteins. considering that most of us have between 40 and 72 hours total worth of Glycogen that we can store, this happens usually within about 3 to 5 days, at which point the above hormonal changes begin.

Yes I agree, I know that long term fasting will decrease muscle mass, IT if done properly can be beneficial to weight loss.

kaypee65

My personal concept of starvation is eating fewer calories than one's basal metabolic rate. In my case, the food cravings are so strong that I have a hard time working. Bump my lower limit to about 100 calories about my BMR and it's so much easier to be successful and to stay on track.

True starvation under the traditional definition? No. But for me, "starvation mode" is an easy shorthand for, "consuming fewer calories than one's basal metabolic rate."

SHBoss1673

Yes I agree, I know that long term fasting will decrease muscle mass, IT if done properly can be beneficial to weight loss.

I'm assuming you meant to say IF not IT (not sure how Information Technology could be beneficial to weight loss, I digress).

Now go with me on this one.

OK lets follow that logic chain. If you agree that long term fasting is bad for muscle mass, and you agree that starvation mode is long term fasting, and (I'm assuming) you agree that losing muscle mass is a bad thing for good health, ipso facto... starvation mode is neither a myth, nor is it a good thing to be in.

Can we all agree on that? I would hope so. The only thing (and I've been on MFP for 4 years, preaching this the whole time) that I have a problem with is some people's definition of starvation mode.

Starvation mode neither happens over night, nor does it STOP weight loss. What it does does is simple reduce your body's ability to lose the same levels of adipose fat, it canabalizes lean tissue (starting with least used first in most cases), and attempts to slow down secondary organ function and systems deemed "less necessary" to reduce caloric expenditure. None of this is good things.

How about we all make a pact to stop calling it a myth and start educating people on what it really is. What ever you want to call it. There's room in this world for people who do IF, as well as people who do a more balanced nutritional approach, even for ketogenic and low carb lifestyles, as long as we all understand the advantages and drawbacks of each, and we aren't all trying to prove each other wrong I'm happy.

angryguy77

I don't get it. you are not technically starving yourself because it seems you are zig zagging. So how do you know starvation mode is a myth?

Here is why I don't believe you: I see far more people saying they lost weight when they upped their caloric intake than people like you who do the opposite(if thats what you do because you're all over the map).



No offense, but if you are telling people not to try what you are doing, then why make a post?

aehartley

Apparently cavemen weren't Diabetic.

The diabetic one died in natural selection... lol

jmgj27

From my personal experience I would say I'm unconvinced by the starvation mode theory. For me it seems to be about gross not net cals weirdly. If I eat around 1500 cals and burn off 700, I feel energised and fit and I lose weight. If I eat 700 gross and do no exercise I feel rubbish and lose no weight. The result should be the same but it's not. It's almost like my body doesn't tip into starvation mode- if it exists- because it gets more than the required 1200 cals. The extra burned through exercise doesn't seem to bother it.

SHBoss1673

From my personal experience I would say I'm unconvinced by the starvation mode theory. For me it seems to be about gross not net cals weirdly. If I eat around 1500 cals and burn off 700, I feel energised and fit and I lose weight. If I eat 700 gross and do no exercise I feel rubbish and lose no weight. The result should be the same but it's not. It's almost like my body doesn't tip into starvation mode- if it exists- because it gets more than the required 1200 cals. The extra burned through exercise doesn't seem to bother it.

there's a very good reason for your feeling my dear. Exercise releases endorphins and suppresses appetite. So when you exercise you're basically doing the same thing as injecting a mild narcotic into your body for a few hours, thus suppressing the feelings of lethargy and depression that comes along with being in a state of semi starvation (the "gross" feeling you have when you DON'T exercise). I'll bet you, if you ate at maintenance for 3 or 4 weeks, you'd feel pretty normal all the time, and you'd also be a lot hungrier at the end, which is how it should be. If you're eating 700 calories a day and not hungry, something's drastically wrong with your body, that's the straight truth.

registers

Yes I agree, I know that long term fasting will decrease muscle mass, IT if done properly can be beneficial to weight loss.

I'm assuming you meant to say IF not IT (not sure how Information Technology could be beneficial to weight loss, I digress).

Now go with me on this one.

OK lets follow that logic chain. If you agree that long term fasting is bad for muscle mass, and you agree that starvation mode is long term fasting, and (I'm assuming) you agree that losing muscle mass is a bad thing for good health, ipso facto... starvation mode is neither a myth, nor is it a good thing to be in.

Can we all agree on that? I would hope so. The only thing (and I've been on MFP for 4 years, preaching this the whole time) that I have a problem with is some people's definition of starvation mode.

Starvation mode neither happens over night, nor does it STOP weight loss. What it does does is simple reduce your body's ability to lose the same levels of adipose fat, it canabalizes lean tissue (starting with least used first in most cases), and attempts to slow down secondary organ function and systems deemed "less necessary" to reduce caloric expenditure. None of this is good things.

How about we all make a pact to stop calling it a myth and start educating people on what it really is. What ever you want to call it. There's room in this world for people who do IF, as well as people who do a more balanced nutritional approach, even for ketogenic and low carb lifestyles, as long as we all understand the advantages and drawbacks of each, and we aren't all trying to prove each other wrong I'm happy.

I completely agree with you, I went back and read my original post. I mentioned the caveman eating pattern, No one knows for sure how they it, they are assumptions, but I believe they're pretty solid, but you never know. I said "Eating at low caloric levels are very beneficial to weight loss, IF you know how to do it properly." You said Nutritionist and Medical personal have no problem with short term fasting. Which I am for, I am against of long term restrictive diets. I am just trying to say that If you do something like an Intermittent fast, you won't be in starvation mode. If you do do a long term fast, you can get in to starvation mode.

wildon883r

Athletes EAT/FUEL themselves before an event generally for breakfast. It's important that the body has a good source of fuel at the start of the day to function properly. My job is physical i need the fuel to get me through the day and generally i eat 6 times a day. I wake up hungry because i don't eat like a glutton at supper. Caveman used to live very short lives so your theory and trying to apply it to modern day physiology are flawed. People are FAT because they eat too much food drink to much soda/ booze and more importantly eat to much food that has no nutritional benefit.

Starvation mode is a myth. I also believe that it makes no difference if you eat before bed. It really is calories in and calories out ultimately.

registers

Athletes EAT/FUEL themselves before an event generally for breakfast. It's important that the body has a good source of fuel at the start of the day to function properly. My job is physical i need the fuel to get me through the day and generally i eat 6 times a day. I wake up hungry because i don't eat like a glutton at supper. Caveman used to live very short lives so your theory and trying to apply it to modern day physiology are flawed. People are FAT because they eat too much food drink to much soda/ booze and more importantly eat to much food that has no nutritional benefit.

Starvation mode is a myth. I also believe that it makes no difference if you eat before bed. It really is calories in and calories out ultimately.

Okay thank you, Yes athletes eat before an event, it also depends on what type of athletes. Meaning which sport. My opinion about it is, when you eat it inhibits fat release, which is the most abundant fuel humans have. So when you eat, you pretty much turn off your fat burning abilities. Growth hormone level raises due to low insulin levels(of not eating) which help with strength, people who have eating like this are incredibly impressed by how much strength they have.

ilsie99

Athletes EAT/FUEL themselves before an event generally for breakfast. It's important that the body has a good source of fuel at the start of the day to function properly. My job is physical i need the fuel to get me through the day and generally i eat 6 times a day. I wake up hungry because i don't eat like a glutton at supper. Caveman used to live very short lives so your theory and trying to apply it to modern day physiology are flawed. People are FAT because they eat too much food drink to much soda/ booze and more importantly eat to much food that has no nutritional benefit.

Starvation mode is a myth. I also believe that it makes no difference if you eat before bed. It really is calories in and calories out ultimately.

Okay thank you, Yes athletes eat before an event, it also depends on what type of athletes. Meaning which sport. My opinion about it is, when you eat it inhibits fat release, which is the most abundant fuel humans have. So when you eat, you pretty much turn off your fat burning abilities. Growth hormone level raises due to low insulin levels(of not eating) which help with strength, people who have eating like this are incredibly impressed by how much strength they have.

Any endurance will tell you how untrue this is. Your body has enough glycogen stores to sustain anywhere from around 1-2 hours of running, at which point it switches over to burning fat. The process is called gluconeogenesis, and it's the whole reason endurance atheletes train long and slow.

elgface

well I think if you go by personal experience, than so should the rest of us my experience is a lot same as yours, my musclemass do not decrease if I eat less than I need, the fat dissapears though, and maybe my metabolism slowes down a bit, but not that much because I still mixe it up with higher and lower days, though the higher cal days are still under my bodies cal limit... if I dont workout for a while, then my muscelmass decreases, because I still have fat to burne off, the body takes from the fat rather than the muscle, that is my experience

so basically i cinda agree with you but I understand that there are people with other experiences

registers

well I think if you go by personal experience, than so should the rest of us my experience is a lot same as yours, my musclemass do not decrease if I eat less than I need, the fat dissapears though, and maybe my metabolism slowes down a bit, but not that much because I still mixe it up with higher and lower days, though the higher cal days are still under my bodies cal limit... if I dont workout for a while, then my muscelmass decreases, because I still have fat to burne off, the body takes from the fat rather than the muscle, that is my experience

so basically i cinda agree with you but I understand that there are people with other experiences

I am pretty sure that's a form of zigzagging your calories. I am doing what you're doing caloric wise pretty much, it works very well.

registers

Wow. So much drama. I think the real issue here is that many people on MFP overuse the term starvation mode, and so it's lost it's true meaning. If I eat 700cals for two days and don't lose any weight, chances are that's not because my body is starving and storing everything I eat. I think that's the mistake some people make. They seem to think that there is always a bigger reason for why they aren't losing. I see a lot of these buzz words thrown around for reasons why people aren't losing, or aren't losing fast enough, or even gaining. Concepts like starvation mode, plateaus, water weight and muscle weight are used far too often in my experiences on the forums, when a lot of the time there is a much more simple reason such as you under reported your calories, over reported your exercise or even, shockhorror, the simple fact that our bodies are designed to gain or maintain weight, not lose it. There could be weeks where you do everything right and not lose a pound, simply because you are asking your body to do something which it is not designed to do. That doesn't mean that I don't believe in true starvation mode, though. Your body wants to live. If you aren't giving it what it needs to live it will shut down every non vital source of energy expenditure and ration out the energy you give it (burn it much slower) It will also, if necessary, cannibalise readily available and non essential muscles and tissues to keep itself going. Then, once the non essential muscles and tissues are gone, it will start on the essential ones. Like our organs and hearts. However... That is extreme, and I highly doubt that many people on MFP will experience starvation mode in it's extreme forms, aside from those with an eating disorder. So I agree that the overused 'MFP version' of starvation mode is a myth. But real starvation mode is not. Just ask the malnourished starving children in Ethiopia who are dying of heart failure.

Good post.

keiraev

This whole starvation mode thing just confuses the hell out of me to be honest.

I lose weight when I use more cals than I burn each week. I have set my amount to 1410 a day- but I usually go slightly over. Sometimes I eat 1800/1900 if I have exercised and still seem to lose- which makes me think you should eat back exercise calories.

When I was in my twenties I went on a few very silly low cal diets and lost loads of weight- sometimes eating under 1000 cals a day and I definitely didn't go into starvation mode - in fact I was almost underweight at one point after losing a couple of stone. How come my body didn't just hold onto it all?

I have been told that basically a 500 cal a day deficit will make you lose 0.5 - 1lb a week and I haven't really seen anyone argue otherwise. That's why diets such as Weight Watchers, Rosemary Conley etc are so successful I guess and people can maintain a slow steady weightloss over time.

Sorry I'm rambling now!

Begsnapper

your post is very opinionated and unfortunately this time your opinion is wrong. people would be wise to do the exact opposite of what youre recommending

Why is it wrong. IF you have strong beliefs of opposition. My experience, is I taken the NASM certification course (national academy of sports medicine) plus I have over 14yrs of experience in the health and fitness community. But thanks for your input.

You started your endeavors in the health and fitness community when you were 15? I don't think it's appropriate to gauge "experience" if it isn't related to actual work in the field. Are you a MD? Do you have a PhD or equivalent in nutrition? You know what may work for you physically... but have you had youre blood drawn? There could be many things going on inside of your body from your style of weightloss than you can't see that could only be determined by a liver function test or the like. Additionally, when you're trying to convince someone of your opinion, being humble is important. No one is going to want to take your opinions into consideration if you're being pushy and inconsiderate in some of your responses. Just food (no pun intended) for thought.

Ask a doctor then ask him if fasting can improve health. See what he says.

youre looking for a quick fix... an easy way out. why do you think you have continued to relapse and have not sustained any weight loss for an extended period?? i read your profile and your dream of becoming a navy seal.

you need to eat healthy food and exercise 6 days a week. counting calories, fasting, starving yourself... whatever you want to call it wont get you to be a navy seal any time soon.

eat lean protein in the morning... eat simple carbs in the afternoon and eat veggies and lean protein at night.

i did p90x and followed the nutrition plan. i ate breakfast everyday, i ate 2,100 calories everyday and i did my very best not to eat within 2 hours before bed and i lost 45lbs!! and i feel better then i have in my entire life!!

i went from 205 to 160 in 4 months! im a 28 year old male, 5 foot 11 inches

im now doing insanity. the beautiful thing about eating well and exercising is that if you stick with it, the results are the same for everybody.

stop looking for an easy way out. starving yourself is unhealthy, it will lead to bad cravings, binges and relapses.

good luck and stay fit!

webbed1

KillingAurora-- Thank you for inejcting some sanity into this silliness. Best part? People overestimate their activity levels and undercount their intake. I bet some people went to look up how many calories were burned responding on this topic so they could justify eating more food while continuing to ignore how they look naked in the mirror... sorry I insist that the sarcasm is necessary.

I'm hungry right now; check out my profile pics, the pic with my hand in my pocket and my shirt on was taken early this month. I am about 5lbs light then that right now, I don't think I am wasting away from a muscle perspective. But I'm hungry because I continue to tweak and reduce my calories and most recently carb count. And I am not eating back my calories. My 4 highly intense BB & Power combo weight training workouts are still vigorous and plenty energetic. I have my bodyfat% (taken via calipers professionally), my weight, and pics to track my progress. And these increasing hunger pangs. I like to tell people this because it is true, it can be very hard and very easy to rationalize eating more. But this is working for me. Will it work for everyone? I'm not interested in proving that to people who very agilely will scour the net to selectively post studies against my thought. My message: Hey go put all that effort into achieving YOUR body image goals. Forget proving ME wrong. But after you post all this and that for and against anything and everything on the forums, go look in the mirror naked or in a binki or briefs and answer truthfully to yourself: Do you like what you see? Are you happy? Are you being honest? The frightening thing is that some people won't do this or will make exuses there too.

Best wishes to all. Let's post more about what our actual progress is, and how we are doing it. Less and less about who is right and who is wrong. Don't you see, in the end, the proof is in YOUR mirror...

registers

your post is very opinionated and unfortunately this time your opinion is wrong. people would be wise to do the exact opposite of what youre recommending

Why is it wrong. IF you have strong beliefs of opposition. My experience, is I taken the NASM certification course (national academy of sports medicine) plus I have over 14yrs of experience in the health and fitness community. But thanks for your input.

You started your endeavors in the health and fitness community when you were 15? I don't think it's appropriate to gauge "experience" if it isn't related to actual work in the field. Are you a MD? Do you have a PhD or equivalent in nutrition? You know what may work for you physically... but have you had youre blood drawn? There could be many things going on inside of your body from your style of weightloss than you can't see that could only be determined by a liver function test or the like. Additionally, when you're trying to convince someone of your opinion, being humble is important. No one is going to want to take your opinions into consideration if you're being pushy and inconsiderate in some of your responses. Just food (no pun intended) for thought.

Ask a doctor then ask him if fasting can improve health. See what he says.

youre looking for a quick fix... an easy way out. why do you think you have continued to relapse and have not sustained any weight loss for an extended period?? i read your profile and your dream of becoming a navy seal.

you need to eat healthy food and exercise 6 days a week. counting calories, fasting, starving yourself... whatever you want to call it wont get you to be a navy seal any time soon.

eat lean protein in the morning... eat simple carbs in the afternoon and eat veggies and lean protein at night.

i did p90x and followed the nutrition plan. i ate breakfast everyday, i ate 2,100 calories everyday and i did my very best not to eat within 2 hours before bed and i lost 45lbs!! and i feel better then i have in my entire life!!

i went from 205 to 160 in 4 months! im a 28 year old male, 5 foot 11 inches

im now doing insanity. the beautiful thing about eating well and exercising is that if you stick with it, the results are the same for everybody.

stop looking for an easy way out. starving yourself is unhealthy, it will lead to bad cravings, binges and relapses.

good luck and stay fit!

I know what you're saying.. and I completely agreee that looking for a quick fix will be too stressful on the body that you can't keep it up. I totally agree, that was my mistake. I would workout too intensely, and my diet was pretty good. I think it was the workout that was getting to me. I wouldn't starve myself, never said anything along those lines, it was a comment, I am actually against prolong fasting for weight loss.