I'm confused weight lifting/cardio/muscle question...

jaxdiablo

Ok, so I've been reading about the muscle not increasing when eating a deficit, and that when you lift you burn fat which makes your existing muscles more visible (in essence toning up, due to visibility of muscle). Does that mean the only way that I'll actually make my muscles bigger, or that I'll be able to lift more, or do more reps is by not eating a caloric deficit?

I've been lifting now for only about 3 weeks (3x lifting a week full body routine in my blog, and 2x a week cardio 30-45 minutes of recumbent bike and HIIT running). I'm not expecting results over night, and it took me about a week to hone in on what my rep weight should be. I'm shooting for 8 reps, 3 sets of a higher weight to make bigger muscles to burn more calories through existance. I've gotten a ton of info from a lot of my friends, and I understand what they're saying, I guess I'm just looking for clarification on the increase in rep weight while eating a deficit.

Thanks in advance!

UponThisRock

Those that are new to lifting, especially when they are overweight, are one of the exceptions to the rule.

Even if you weren't gaining muscle, strength training helps you retain more muscle as you lose. And you can still get stronger even if you aren't adding new muscle.

engineman312

Those that are new to lifting, especially when they are overweight, are one of the exceptions to the rule.

Even if you weren't gaining muscle, strength training helps you retain more muscle as you lose. And you can still get stronger even if you aren't adding new muscle.

yup.

basically, you are seeing "noob gains." just being new to this whole weight loss, strength training, and cardio thing, you are noticing muscles and definetions that were just hiding under some flab before.

new people to lifitng, myself included, will see great gains from doing a full body work out routine. in fact, it is probably recommended over just working one or two muscle groups at a time, that more exerienced weight lifters will do.

Huffdogg

Those that are new to lifting, especially when they are overweight, are one of the exceptions to the rule.

Even if you weren't gaining muscle, strength training helps you retain more muscle as you lose. And you can still get stronger even if you aren't adding new muscle.

^^ This

Strobins05

bump

Elleinnz

No no noooooo - you might not be building huge muscles right now - but trust me - if you keep on working hard and challenging yourself with the weights you lift you will be building muscle....and pushing up the size of the weights you lift week after week!!

I have been on a calorie deficit of a 1000 calories a day (give or take) now for 15 months, and in that time I have consistenly lifted 3 to 4 times a week, and as the blubber has started falling off the gorgeous little muscles are starting to show ;-) .....

I love the defined body that is starting to show, and I am soooo glad I started lifting right from the start - I think people that say "I will do cardio first to lose the weight, and then start toning" are missing out on so much of the benefits of lifting - and looking gorgeous when the blubber dissapears....

edit....One of the keys though - keep feeding your body good food - lovely healthy proteins - and a few carbs and it will give you results!!

BobbyClerici

The general consensus is that while on a calorie deficit, you can increase strength but not mass.
And I have heard from some who swear they lost fat and increased muscle mass which only leads to more confusion.

My experience is that one must choose which is most important.
Lower weight/body fat or higher weight/muscle mass.

I accept this and am working to lower body fat and weight, knowing I already lost so much muscle mass in route to losing over 60 lbs. At the end of my journey from 262 to 185lbs, I'll went from XXL to XL and will end up in a size L shirt. But my pants went from 46 down to 36 and shall stop at 32 pants.

In the end I choose health.:glasses:

Jeff92se

Ok, so I've been reading about the muscle not increasing when eating a deficit, and that when you lift you burn fat which makes your existing muscles more visible (in essence toning up, due to visibility of muscle). Does that mean the only way that I'll actually make my muscles bigger, or that I'll be able to lift more, or do more reps is by not eating a caloric deficit?

I've been lifting now for only about 3 weeks (3x lifting a week full body routine in my blog, and 2x a week cardio 30-45 minutes of recumbent bike and HIIT running). I'm not expecting results over night, and it took me about a week to hone in on what my rep weight should be. I'm shooting for 8 reps, 3 sets of a higher weight to make bigger muscles to burn more calories through existance. I've gotten a ton of info from a lot of my friends, and I understand what they're saying, I guess I'm just looking for clarification on the increase in rep weight while eating a deficit.

Thanks in advance!

IMHO. If you want to maximize your muscle gains, you should be eating at a surplus. IMHO you can have modest gains while at a slight deficit. As long as you're not at a really low BF to begin with.

Keep lifing hard, keep the protein up and stay at a slight deficit. After losing some BF, if you don't like your results, you can always eat more.

My priority is fat loss and strength gain. I've done both so far. I don't have any scientific way to know if I've gained muscle (over and above from my previous lifting days). Only thing I can say is I have one dress shirt that's always been a touch small. thoughout this recent process (latest 6lbs lost), it hasn't fitted any looser up top or around my lats. If I lost weight (fat and muscle or just fat), the shirt should be fitting more loose everwhere. I know, not scientific but it is my observation

PepeGreggerton

You can build muscle at deficit.

RonSwanson66

You can build muscle at deficit.

Only if you're
Overweight
New to training
or regaining after a long break from training.

Jeff92se

You can build muscle at deficit.

Only if you're
Overweight
New to training
or regaining after a long break from training.

Yes, we all have read that, more than a few times. I don't believe it's as black and white as you claim.

Jeff92se

The general consensus is that while on a calorie deficit, you can increase strength but not mass.
And I have heard from some who swear they lost fat and increased muscle mass which only leads to more confusion.

My experience is that one must choose which is most important.
Lower weight/body fat or higher weight/muscle mass.

I accept this and am working to lower body fat and weight, knowing I already lost so much muscle mass in route to losing over 60 lbs. At the end of my journey from 262 to 185lbs, I'll went from XXL to XL and will end up in a size L shirt. But my pants went from 46 down to 36 and shall stop at 32 pants.

In the end I choose health.:glasses:

How as your strength been? Higher? Lower? Same? I mean same would be great for the amount of weight you lost. It would be damned hard to guage what you muscle mass has done considering the big weight difference.

Huffdogg

The general consensus is that while on a calorie deficit, you can increase strength but not mass.
And I have heard from some who swear they lost fat and increased muscle mass which only leads to more confusion.

My experience is that one must choose which is most important.
Lower weight/body fat or higher weight/muscle mass.

I accept this and am working to lower body fat and weight, knowing I already lost so much muscle mass in route to losing over 60 lbs. At the end of my journey from 262 to 185lbs, I'll went from XXL to XL and will end up in a size L shirt. But my pants went from 46 down to 36 and shall stop at 32 pants.

In the end I choose health.:glasses:

How as your strength been? Higher? Lower? Same? I mean same would be great for the amount of weight you lost. It would be damned hard to guage what you muscle mass has done considering the big weight difference.

Getting a BF% analysis done answers a lot of questions, if you have the ability to do that.

Jeff92se

Getting a BF% analysis done answers a lot of questions, if you have the ability to do that.

Fortunately, I had mine done around the time I joined this site. When I near my goal, I'm going to get it done again.

ninerbuff

No no noooooo - you might not be building huge muscles right now - but trust me - if you keep on working hard and challenging yourself with the weights you lift you will be building muscle....and pushing up the size of the weights you lift week after week!!

It's practically impossible to build muscle on calorie deficit. To build muscle you would be adding weight. To add weight you need to be in calorie surplus.
Seeing definition isn't building muscle. It's losing body fat.

A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

ninerbuff

You can build muscle at deficit.

Only if you're
Overweight
New to training
or regaining after a long break from training.

This. A person who has been exercising consistently on deficit won't build muscle. You can't build muscle from negative calories.

A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Jeff92se

You can build muscle at deficit.

Only if you're
Overweight
New to training
or regaining after a long break from training.

This. A person who has been exercising consistently on deficit won't build muscle. You can't build muscle from negative calories.

A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Wow. One thing I'm curious about; you said you did low carb to lose weight at first. How long did you do it and how much did you lose? But then when you made the switch and I presume, increased your carbs, did you gain any weight back? What did you do to counter the additional carbs? Step up your workouts? Thanks for sharing and congratulations on your success.

Here is a great article http://www.simplyshredded.com/layne-norton-the-most-effective-cutting-diet.html - that's my coach... Basically, eat enough protein and fats for your level of lean mass and fill in the rest of your caloric needs with carbs. Find out what maintainence is for you and deduct the carb numbers that will help you lose weight. I can go on and on about the process of testing "what" does "what" to your body and the optimal macronutrient composition for you, but again, testing to see what does what to your body takes some time.

I'm still learning to test to see what's optimal. I will say one thing, when you get your metabolism functioning optimally, you can increase your carb allowance to 500 grams so the next time you diet on say 200-250 grams it's high enough where you can still eat and have fun and not starve yourself too badly. I remember the days of eating 30-90 grams of carbs a day - that was not fun at all. No one knows hell, until they've been on an extremely low-carb diet

Now that my metabolism is on fire (thanks to my coach) I'm at about 375 grams per day and I'm not putting on any weight. He figures I'll top out at 400-500 grams somewhere, I think closer to 500 grams, which is about 2000 calories from carbs only. This is fun!!!

In short, I didn't gain the weight back and I went from as low as 30grams to 375 grams, but it took time and Layne meticulously and methodically increased it and other macronutrient variables that "tries" to optimize my metabolism. Simply put, he just tells me how much of carbs/fat/protein to eat and it's up to me to figure it out and eat the foods that will hit those macros.

Now I sit at 177-180 and I'm leaner NOW than I was at 175. Doesn't sound like a lot but, the 2-3 lbs I've gain has totally changed the way I look.

Layne and I compared how I looked at 178lbs at two different points in time spaced roughly 3 months a part and visually I look so different. The last time I was 178lbs when I was dieting down and through that number I was flat, and relatively flabby. And the more recent photo of me at 178lbs I'm bigger and much leaner (much leaner). So what ever it is he's doing, it's working.

Check out my post on blood test and my triglyceride numbers, it's low for someone eating the amount of carbs I'm eating, and my cholesterol - damn. It's like I'm 18 again!!! 110 cholesterol with HDL/LDL ratio that's almost double what is considered "good" I have the metabolism of a marathon runner my physician saids, but the ironic thing is I only do cardio 2x per week :bigsmile:

So I think it's finding the optimal amount of diet and exercise. Now what "is" optimal is different for different people I guess. There are some guys like Alberto Nunez (google him) that can diet on 400grams of carbs per day and refeeds on 1000 grams of carbs. I don't think I will ever get there. He's 5'9" and competes at 160lbs as a natural bodybuilder. And then there's my coach, Layne Norton, who when dieting has to get as low as 100-150 grams dieting for a show. Layne, I believe, competes at 196 lbs at 5'10". They might not sound "huge" but if you google them, they are massive because they are at those weights literally with no fat on their persons....

I hope this helps,
N

He gained weight(assuming muscle for how cut he is) and leaned out at the same time. But to qualify, he's paying 10x more attention to his nutriution than most of us.

RonSwanson66

You can build muscle at deficit.

Only if you're
Overweight
New to training
or regaining after a long break from training.

This. A person who has been exercising consistently on deficit won't build muscle. You can't build muscle from negative calories.

A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Wow. One thing I'm curious about; you said you did low carb to lose weight at first. How long did you do it and how much did you lose? But then when you made the switch and I presume, increased your carbs, did you gain any weight back? What did you do to counter the additional carbs? Step up your workouts? Thanks for sharing and congratulations on your success.

Here is a great article http://www.simplyshredded.com/layne-norton-the-most-effective-cutting-diet.html - that's my coach... Basically, eat enough protein and fats for your level of lean mass and fill in the rest of your caloric needs with carbs. Find out what maintainence is for you and deduct the carb numbers that will help you lose weight. I can go on and on about the process of testing "what" does "what" to your body and the optimal macronutrient composition for you, but again, testing to see what does what to your body takes some time.

I'm still learning to test to see what's optimal. I will say one thing, when you get your metabolism functioning optimally, you can increase your carb allowance to 500 grams so the next time you diet on say 200-250 grams it's high enough where you can still eat and have fun and not starve yourself too badly. I remember the days of eating 30-90 grams of carbs a day - that was not fun at all. No one knows hell, until they've been on an extremely low-carb diet

Now that my metabolism is on fire (thanks to my coach) I'm at about 375 grams per day and I'm not putting on any weight. He figures I'll top out at 400-500 grams somewhere, I think closer to 500 grams, which is about 2000 calories from carbs only. This is fun!!!

In short, I didn't gain the weight back and I went from as low as 30grams to 375 grams, but it took time and Layne meticulously and methodically increased it and other macronutrient variables that "tries" to optimize my metabolism. Simply put, he just tells me how much of carbs/fat/protein to eat and it's up to me to figure it out and eat the foods that will hit those macros.

Now I sit at 177-180 and I'm leaner NOW than I was at 175. Doesn't sound like a lot but, the 2-3 lbs I've gain has totally changed the way I look.

Layne and I compared how I looked at 178lbs at two different points in time spaced roughly 3 months a part and visually I look so different. The last time I was 178lbs when I was dieting down and through that number I was flat, and relatively flabby. And the more recent photo of me at 178lbs I'm bigger and much leaner (much leaner). So what ever it is he's doing, it's working.

Check out my post on blood test and my triglyceride numbers, it's low for someone eating the amount of carbs I'm eating, and my cholesterol - damn. It's like I'm 18 again!!! 110 cholesterol with HDL/LDL ratio that's almost double what is considered "good" I have the metabolism of a marathon runner my physician saids, but the ironic thing is I only do cardio 2x per week :bigsmile:

So I think it's finding the optimal amount of diet and exercise. Now what "is" optimal is different for different people I guess. There are some guys like Alberto Nunez (google him) that can diet on 400grams of carbs per day and refeeds on 1000 grams of carbs. I don't think I will ever get there. He's 5'9" and competes at 160lbs as a natural bodybuilder. And then there's my coach, Layne Norton, who when dieting has to get as low as 100-150 grams dieting for a show. Layne, I believe, competes at 196 lbs at 5'10". They might not sound "huge" but if you google them, they are massive because they are at those weights literally with no fat on their persons....

I hope this helps,
N

He gained weight(assuming muscle for how cut he is) and leaned out at the same time. But to qualify, he's paying 10x more attention to his nutriution than most of us.

If he gained weight HE WAS NOT IN A DEFICIT.

Also, he even said he upped his carb intake.

Increased carbs -> increased glycogen storage -> increased weight. Water, glycogen, etc is lean mass, but it isn't muscle.


I've seen guys gain that much after a single refeed. If it's a dry carb load, they look leaner too.

n=1 claims on an internet forum aren't evidence of anything.

Jeff92se

Amazing. Have you been eating at a calorie deficit all this time? You seem to have gain alot of muscle mass

yes. I'm still at a slight caloric deficit because when you compare my photos at a constant weight of 177-178 over the past 3 months of my reverse diet (which I have not uploaded yet) I look totally different from when I was dieting down and through 177-175 vs. now when I've hovering between 175 to 178. It's like my body morphed while staying at this weight.

Once I start my mass phase, however, my coach sees 1-2 lbs per month easy in this slow and controlled manner. So hopefully back up near 200 lbs in about a year from now. For height reference, I'm 5'8"...

I'm going to go with his actual pictures, logs and posts.

RonSwanson66

Amazing. Have you been eating at a calorie deficit all this time? You seem to have gain alot of muscle mass

yes. I'm still at a slight caloric deficit because when you compare my photos at a constant weight of 177-178 over the past 3 months of my reverse diet (which I have not uploaded yet) I look totally different from when I was dieting down and through 177-175 vs. now when I've hovering between 175 to 178. It's like my body morphed while staying at this weight.

Once I start my mass phase, however, my coach sees 1-2 lbs per month easy in this slow and controlled manner. So hopefully back up near 200 lbs in about a year from now. For height reference, I'm 5'8"...

I'm going to go with his actual pictures, logs and posts.

Words have meanings. If you're gaining weight then you are not in a deficit. Period.

Thermodynamics isn't just a good ideal. It's the law.

Jeff92se

Amazing. Have you been eating at a calorie deficit all this time? You seem to have gain alot of muscle mass

yes. I'm still at a slight caloric deficit because when you compare my photos at a constant weight of 177-178 over the past 3 months of my reverse diet (which I have not uploaded yet) I look totally different from when I was dieting down and through 177-175 vs. now when I've hovering between 175 to 178. It's like my body morphed while staying at this weight.

Once I start my mass phase, however, my coach sees 1-2 lbs per month easy in this slow and controlled manner. So hopefully back up near 200 lbs in about a year from now. For height reference, I'm 5'8"...

I'm going to go with his actual pictures, logs and posts.

Words have meanings. If you're gaining weight then you are not in a deficit. Period.

Thermodynamics isn't just a good ideal. It's the law.

He gained muscle, lost fat all on a slight calorie deficit. If you don't believe him, go ahead and challenge him in his thread. I mean the pictures are right there.

You think he's miscalculating his nutrient and calorie inputs??? He's a bodybuilding competitor with a trainer that's telling him exactly what %s to eat.

Here's the thread. Let him know what you think. http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/403233-lost-96lbs-and-made-top-10-in-physique-contest?page=6#posts-5810993