I'm confused weight lifting/cardio/muscle question...

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Jeff92se and RonSwanson66 need to work out their sexual tension.

Jeff92se

I asked him specifically if he's been at a deficit the whole time. He's answer "yes".

And I'd think a competitive bodybuilder would know if he's gained muscle or not.

Are you going to say his biceps just "apper" to be larger? Especially since he specifically mentions targeting them?

Competitive bodybuilders say alot of stupid ****.

And for the last time, the CLAIMS OF A SINGLE PERSON ON AN INTERNET FORUM ARE NOT EVIDENCE.

What a person believes, and what is actually happening are two different things.

Alot of them do. What makes you more knowlegble then him? Look at the results, look at his diet. Hell read his thread. Tthen go ahead and tell him he's info is stupid****

For the last ****ing time. N=1 claims DO NOT DISPROVE MOUNTAINS OF SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE.

Believe what you want, but you are misinformed.

Great. That's the way to quantify your point. BTW I haven't seen you in his thread.

Appeal to authority again. I made my point here, I don't feel like repeating myself to another misinformed bro.

You repeat yourself but don't address any of the points I bring up. Might as well put your hands over your ears and scream the same thing over and over again

You want to find out once and for all? Hop into that thread and ask the exact same things you just mentioned here. Convince him he's doing it wrong and I''ll be convinced right along with him. Deal?

RonSwanson66

There you go, assumptions. If you haven't noticed his trainer is a natural bodybuilder. Why not asked him yourself?

Do you assume that all "natural" bodybuilders are drug free? If so, then you are quite naive. (Not referring to anyone in particular, but drug-tests are very easy to beat).

havalinaaa

I just LOVE when a simple question on MFP turns into a pissing contest between people who completely ignore the original question.

I reviewed the OP post. This discussion lies at the heart of what he's tring to find out.

He was asking whether or not he should expect an increase in muscle size and strength while eating at a deficit. He states that he realizes building muscle on a deficit is practically impossible (I won't say totally impossible, but to do so would take an enormous amount of fine tuning for both training and diet).

And to answer the OP, I would say your muscle size appearance will increase, the look will be bigger, but you probably won't be gaining actual muscle tissue. As long as you are using good form and taking rest days, you can get steadily stronger without gaining muscle mass. Based on everything I have read/heard/seen, high weights low reps is the way to go whether you're on a deficit or not.

Jeff92se

There you go, assumptions. If you haven't noticed his trainer is a natural bodybuilder. Why not asked him yourself?

Do you assume that all "natural" bodybuilders are drug free? If so, then you are quite naive. (Not referring to anyone in particular, but drug-tests are very easy to beat).

No. do you assume everything written in a bood is correct? Why would I assume you know what you are talking about? At some point you have to make some assumptions to forward the discussion.

RonSwanson66

You repeat yourself but don't address any of the points I bring up. Might as well put your hands over your ears and scream the same thing over and over again

You want to find out once and for all? Hop into that thread and ask the exact same things you just mentioned here. Convince him he's doing it wrong and I''ll be convinced right along with him. Deal?

Learn to read.

Just because he CLAIMS to be in a caloric deficit, that doesn't mean he IS. What part of that did you fail to understand???

Jeff92se

You repeat yourself but don't address any of the points I bring up. Might as well put your hands over your ears and scream the same thing over and over again

You want to find out once and for all? Hop into that thread and ask the exact same things you just mentioned here. Convince him he's doing it wrong and I''ll be convinced right along with him. Deal?

Learn to read.

Just because he CLAIMS to be in a caloric deficit, that doesn't mean he IS. What part of that did you fail to understand???

Learn to read. Why not ASK him yourself?

Do you think he's flat out lying?(why would he do that?) Or miscalculting his calories? (seems to be keeping a pretty strict log)

Jeff92se

The general consensus is that while on a calorie deficit, you can increase strength but not mass.
And I have heard from some who swear they lost fat and increased muscle mass which only leads to more confusion.

My experience is that one must choose which is most important.
Lower weight/body fat or higher weight/muscle mass.

I accept this and am working to lower body fat and weight, knowing I already lost so much muscle mass in route to losing over 60 lbs. At the end of my journey from 262 to 185lbs, I'll went from XXL to XL and will end up in a size L shirt. But my pants went from 46 down to 36 and shall stop at 32 pants.

In the end I choose health.:glasses:

How as your strength been? Higher? Lower? Same? I mean same would be great for the amount of weight you lost. It would be damned hard to guage what you muscle mass has done considering the big weight difference.

My strength has diminished.
I was benching 340 and am down to 280.

Like I said, I am in this for health now, and my victory is measured in resting heart rate, blood pressure and other such items and not bragging rights in the weight room.

I did not wish to end up a jacked corpse.

I think for the amount of weight lost, that's great. I don't think you can lose that much weight and not lose some muscle mass. At least not without micro-managing your diet to the extreme.

RonSwanson66

You repeat yourself but don't address any of the points I bring up. Might as well put your hands over your ears and scream the same thing over and over again

You want to find out once and for all? Hop into that thread and ask the exact same things you just mentioned here. Convince him he's doing it wrong and I''ll be convinced right along with him. Deal?

Learn to read.

Just because he CLAIMS to be in a caloric deficit, that doesn't mean he IS. What part of that did you fail to understand???

Learn to read. Why not ASK him yourself?

Because I don't give a rat-**** what he believes. Like I said before, the evidence speaks for itself.

Self-reporting is inferior to objective measurement. Always has been, always will be.

jsuaccounting

Just hypothetically, if you digest a pound of your own fat then theoretically you have 3600 calories processing in your body. Is it possible that some of that could be used to repair/build muscle? I know that it is far fetched but it seems theoretically posible. Therefore, the law of thermodynamics is not 'broken'. Just an idea....

Jeff92se

You repeat yourself but don't address any of the points I bring up. Might as well put your hands over your ears and scream the same thing over and over again

You want to find out once and for all? Hop into that thread and ask the exact same things you just mentioned here. Convince him he's doing it wrong and I''ll be convinced right along with him. Deal?

Learn to read.

Just because he CLAIMS to be in a caloric deficit, that doesn't mean he IS. What part of that did you fail to understand???

Learn to read. Why not ASK him yourself?

Because I don't give a rat-**** what he believes. Like I said before, the evidence speaks for itself.

Self-reporting is inferior to objective measurement. Always has been, always will be.

The evidence I just presented. Pictures, testimony, history indicate it supports my claim. You've presented the same statement over and over again.

You don't give a crap. Yet you've posted in THIS thread about 6 times in the last 20 min. Afraid of what he might say? That it might turn your thinking around a bit? Hell, he might prove YOU right and me wrong.(if that's the case, so be it) I think you just want to adhere to what you think is right despite what anyone tries to present. That's becoming pretty apparent.

jsuaccounting

Jeff92se and RonSwanson66 need to work out their sexual tension.

Jeff92se

Just hypothetically, if you digest a pound of your own fat then theoretically you have 3600 calories processing in your body. Is it possible that some of that could be used to repair/build muscle? I know that it is far fetched but it seems theoretically posible. Therefore, the law of thermodynamics is not 'broken'. Just an idea....

Perhaps that's what we are talking about. Recently, he's only gained 1-2lbs. But claims to have put on more mucle. If he's 177lbs and let's say 10% bodyfat, he'd have 17.7lbs of fat to work with.

sugarbone

As stated, noobie lifters can make muscle gains on a deficit because their muscles are completely untrained and easy to build. You will also get rapid strength gains (assuming you are training properly) compared to that of someone with trained muscles. Enjoy it while it lasts! I am personally still experiencing noob gains I think - my measurements and bf% are shrinking while I stay the same weight (muscle building very slowly).

In general, though, you must eat a caloric surplus to build muscle, that is correct. Otherwise, where is your body going to get the material and energy to create entirely new matter? Out of thin air? :P

RonSwanson66

You repeat yourself but don't address any of the points I bring up. Might as well put your hands over your ears and scream the same thing over and over again

You want to find out once and for all? Hop into that thread and ask the exact same things you just mentioned here. Convince him he's doing it wrong and I''ll be convinced right along with him. Deal?

Learn to read.

Just because he CLAIMS to be in a caloric deficit, that doesn't mean he IS. What part of that did you fail to understand???

Learn to read. Why not ASK him yourself?

Because I don't give a rat-**** what he believes. Like I said before, the evidence speaks for itself.

Self-reporting is inferior to objective measurement. Always has been, always will be.

The evidence I just presented. Pictures, testimony, history indicate it supports my claim. You've presented the same statement over and over again.

You don't give a crap. Yet you've posted in THIS thread about 6 times in the last 20 min. Afraid of what he might say? That it might turn your thinking around a bit? Hell, he might prove YOU right and me wrong.(if that's the case, so be it) I think you just want to adhere to what you think is right despite what anyone tries to present. That's becoming pretty apparent.

Do you know the difference between "anecdote" and "evidence"????


Apparently not.

Jeff92se

In general, though, you must eat a caloric surplus to build muscle, that is correct. Otherwise, where is your body going to get the material and energy to create entirely new matter? Out of thin air? :P

Where is the body getting it when you are a newbie or obese (while on a calorie deficit?) How is the body making that distinction?

Jeff92se

You repeat yourself but don't address any of the points I bring up. Might as well put your hands over your ears and scream the same thing over and over again

You want to find out once and for all? Hop into that thread and ask the exact same things you just mentioned here. Convince him he's doing it wrong and I''ll be convinced right along with him. Deal?

Learn to read.

Just because he CLAIMS to be in a caloric deficit, that doesn't mean he IS. What part of that did you fail to understand???

Learn to read. Why not ASK him yourself?

Because I don't give a rat-**** what he believes. Like I said before, the evidence speaks for itself.

Self-reporting is inferior to objective measurement. Always has been, always will be.

The evidence I just presented. Pictures, testimony, history indicate it supports my claim. You've presented the same statement over and over again.

You don't give a crap. Yet you've posted in THIS thread about 6 times in the last 20 min. Afraid of what he might say? That it might turn your thinking around a bit? Hell, he might prove YOU right and me wrong.(if that's the case, so be it) I think you just want to adhere to what you think is right despite what anyone tries to present. That's becoming pretty apparent.

Do you know the difference between "anecdote" and "evidence"????


Apparently not.

Tell me, how is his evidence merely anectotal in nature? Point out specificaly. Then you might want to tell that guy he's doing it all wrong. Wait, you won't.

RonSwanson66

In general, though, you must eat a caloric surplus to build muscle, that is correct. Otherwise, where is your body going to get the material and energy to create entirely new matter? Out of thin air? :P

Where is the body getting it when you are a newbie or obese (while on a calorie deficit?) How is the body making that distinction?

So consider an individual who is carrying quite a bit of fat and not very much muscle. Your typical overfat beginner trainee. Let’s look a bit at what’s going on physiologically for this person.

One consequence of the excess body fat is a systemic insulin resistance and this is especially true for fat cells. Basically, when fat cells start to get full, they become more resistant to further caloric storage. That is to say: insulin resistance actually develops as an adaptation to obesity and this is one reason that obesity is often associated with things like hyperglycemia, hypertriglyercidemia and hypercholesterolemia; the fat cells get so full that they stop accepting more calories. So instead of being stored, glucose, triglycerides and cholesterol sit in the bloodstream. In that vein, and quite contrary to popular belief, insulin resistance actually predicts weight loss and insulin sensitivity weight gain but that’s another topic for another day.

So we have a situation in overfat folks where fat cells are sort of trying to ‘push calories away’ from the fat cells. That’s point #1.

The second thing to consider is the untrained state and the fact that when people start training, they always make gains in both strength and muscle mass faster. That is, beginners have the potential to gain muscle at a much faster rate (and more easily in terms of the stimulus needed) than someone trained. As well, keep in mind that regular training (both resistance training and cardio) improve muscular insulin sensitivity and nutrient uptake in that one specific tissue (training is probably the most powerful tool in our arsenal to improve nutrient uptake in that specific a fashion). That’s point #2.

So consider the combination: we have a situation with overfat beginners where fat cells are very insulin resistant and essentially trying to push calories away. Now we throw training on that, not only sending a muscle building stimulus via training but increasing nutrient uptake into skeletal muscle through effects on skeletal muscle nutrient uptake/insulin sensitivity.

And what happens under those circumstances is exactly what you’d expect: the body appears to take calories out of fat cells and use them to build muscle. And this is effectively what is happening due to the combination of the above two factors. But the combination of the two is required. A lean beginner won’t see the above because they don’t have the fat to lose/fat energy to shunt to the muscle. And as they get more advanced, the rate of muscle gain slows way down. Again, it’s the combination of overfat and beginner status that comes together here to let some magic occur.

And even there you’re not going to see the body replacing one pound of fat with one pound of muscle for very long. The rates of the different processes are simply too different. What you might see is an initial shift where muscle ‘replaces’ fat due to the calorie shunting effect but invariably it slows down and either muscle gain or (more frequently) fat loss becomes dominant.

Now, having looked at the specific situation of an overfat beginner, let’s look at what happens as one of two things (or both happen): the person becomes leaner and/or achieves a higher training status.

A known adaptation to fat loss is an improvement in insulin sensitivity especially in fat cells. This is part of why fat loss becomes more difficult as folks get leaner as well as why the risk of weight/fat gain is higher at the end of the diet (you’re MORE insulin sensitive). This means that the fat cells not only have less stored fat to give up but it becomes more difficult to get it out of there.

I discussed some of the reasons for this in detail in The Stubborn Fat Solution along with protocols to get around it. But the point is made: as folks get leaner, getting fat out of fat cells becomes more difficult. Some of the hormonal mechanisms involved are also discussed in Calorie Partitioning Part 1 and Calorie Partitioning Part 2.

Furthermore, as folks become better trained, it becomes more difficult to gain muscle under any condition. The training stimulus is higher and the impact of training is lessened.

So the situation that was in place for the overfat beginner has reversed itself in someone who is leaner and/or better trained. Fat cells are no longer insulin resistant and ‘pushing fat calories’ away; quite in fact they are ready to take up excess calories at any time. And since training has a lesser impact on muscle growth, the odds of getting the calorie shunting effect becomes lower and lower approaching nil. Again, that’s on top of all of the hormonal stuff discussed in the above articles (e.g. fat loss and muscle gain requires different hormonal situations).

Which is why a lot of the approaches advocated for ‘gaining muscle while losing fat’ aren’t very effective. In fact, I’d tend to argue that most people’s attempts to achieve the above results in them simply spinning their wheels, making no progress towards either goal. Because invariably they set up a situation where neither training nor diet is optimized for either fat loss or muscle gain. Calories are too high for fat loss and too low to support muscle gains and outside of that one overfat beginner situation, the physiology simply isn’t going to readily allow what they want to happen to happen.
.


http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html

RonSwanson66

You repeat yourself but don't address any of the points I bring up. Might as well put your hands over your ears and scream the same thing over and over again

You want to find out once and for all? Hop into that thread and ask the exact same things you just mentioned here. Convince him he's doing it wrong and I''ll be convinced right along with him. Deal?

Learn to read.

Just because he CLAIMS to be in a caloric deficit, that doesn't mean he IS. What part of that did you fail to understand???

Learn to read. Why not ASK him yourself?

Because I don't give a rat-**** what he believes. Like I said before, the evidence speaks for itself.

Self-reporting is inferior to objective measurement. Always has been, always will be.

The evidence I just presented. Pictures, testimony, history indicate it supports my claim. You've presented the same statement over and over again.

You don't give a crap. Yet you've posted in THIS thread about 6 times in the last 20 min. Afraid of what he might say? That it might turn your thinking around a bit? Hell, he might prove YOU right and me wrong.(if that's the case, so be it) I think you just want to adhere to what you think is right despite what anyone tries to present. That's becoming pretty apparent.

Do you know the difference between "anecdote" and "evidence"????


Apparently not.

Tell me, how is his evidence merely anectotal in nature? Point out specificaly.

N=1, self-reported, is the DEFINITION of anecdotal evidence.

Do you understand the scientific method at all????

Jeff92se

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kelly3.htm

However, with science, information and understanding on how the various systems of the body function, we can better understand and apply correct exercise and nutritional timing to better enable us to achieve the goal of increasing muscle mass and losing fat simultaneously. The plan I am about to unfold here is, as only a bodybuilder would have it, a bit extreme. However, if dedicated to and followed, it will enable you to achieve these 2 mutually-exclusive goals simultaneously by taking advantage of nutrient and exercise timing.


Word battles are great.