I'm confused weight lifting/cardio/muscle question...

nsblue

Well I know I am not knowlegeable in muscle building by any means, but I know what I have done is working for me.
Since Feb 25th of this year I have been walking to get my cardio...eating 1200 most days and different times 600-800 cal by direction of my doc. I now am on 600-800 cal for 4 weeks. I now have 196.7 pounds off. (and with what i lost before that date a total of 316.7 pounds.
I have lifted 8lb weights daily..only 2 sets of 20 of bicept curls, tricept extensions, and dumbell lifts...also used 2.5lbs weights on each wrist when walking. My shoulders are forming and bicepts have "popped up" ... IMO they have been increasing some by doing this in deficit.

Dave198lbs

OMG STFU, this thread is still going? What are you, a bunch of 12 year olds? Disagreements, they happen. No one is changing anyone else's mind here, so just move on! Your penises are all the same size as they were before this thread started, I promise.

Run along now, the grown-ups are talking.

In circles.




also, BWAHAHAHAHAHHAAA

no offense to the debaters but this is damn funny!

Helloitsdan

MAGIC!!!

I just want to know why you are so quick to believe what a random person on the internet says over centuries of scientific fact.

I think the term you're looking for is "Cognitive Dissonance"

LOL!!!
This made my night!

Jeff92se

You posted images of him. Are you trying to imply that those pictures show him as being overfat? If he's in a bodybuilding competition, you can guarantee his body fat % is below 10. Also, I believe you were the one who first threw out the 10% number.

I posted pictures of him to illustrate before/after while on a specific diet. I also mentioned his weight before/after.

You mentioned 10% as some dviding line.

I even went to Norton's websdite and he advocates bulking on a surplus. If that's your sepcific goal. But it's interesting to see he advocates not getting too fat while bulking. But this is a bit off topic.

From his results and from the answers to my questions, he appeared to gained a slight amount of muscle while at a calorie deficit. I specially asked him. I don't' think he as trying specifically to do that. But it seems to be one of the results.

You seem to be interested in this subject right up until it requires you to actually ask him about it.

tigersword

You're the only one going on and on about him. I'm speaking of general science, not story from a guy on the internet.

Helloitsdan

I'm with the other guy on this!
MAGIC!

Jeff92se

You're the only one going on and on about him. I'm speaking of general science, not story from a guy on the internet.

Sure. I think he's the exception. As mentioned from the article that Ronswanson used as evidence.

zipnguyen

Ok, so I've been reading about the muscle not increasing when eating a deficit, and that when you lift you burn fat which makes your existing muscles more visible (in essence toning up, due to visibility of muscle). Does that mean the only way that I'll actually make my muscles bigger, or that I'll be able to lift more, or do more reps is by not eating a caloric deficit?

I've been lifting now for only about 3 weeks (3x lifting a week full body routine in my blog, and 2x a week cardio 30-45 minutes of recumbent bike and HIIT running). I'm not expecting results over night, and it took me about a week to hone in on what my rep weight should be. I'm shooting for 8 reps, 3 sets of a higher weight to make bigger muscles to burn more calories through existance. I've gotten a ton of info from a lot of my friends, and I understand what they're saying, I guess I'm just looking for clarification on the increase in rep weight while eating a deficit.

Thanks in advance!

wow Jax - quite a thread you started. I know it's old and pretty much dead, but oh lord it's a long thread and I don't even know if you got your answer or not. :bigsmile:

snookumss

bump

zipnguyen

You can build muscle at deficit.

Only if you're
Overweight
New to training
or regaining after a long break from training.

Mine was a long 6-8 year break from intense training to a more off again and on again training whilst eating the same as if I "was" training intensely. But I have to clarify it was more "off" than "on"

zipnguyen

Jeff92se and RonSwanson66 need to work out their sexual tension.

^^^^^^ that was hilarious :laugh:

zipnguyen

You repeat yourself but don't address any of the points I bring up. Might as well put your hands over your ears and scream the same thing over and over again

You want to find out once and for all? Hop into that thread and ask the exact same things you just mentioned here. Convince him he's doing it wrong and I''ll be convinced right along with him. Deal?

Learn to read.

Just because he CLAIMS to be in a caloric deficit, that doesn't mean he IS. What part of that did you fail to understand???

That's very true...

zipnguyen

You repeat yourself but don't address any of the points I bring up. Might as well put your hands over your ears and scream the same thing over and over again

You want to find out once and for all? Hop into that thread and ask the exact same things you just mentioned here. Convince him he's doing it wrong and I''ll be convinced right along with him. Deal?

Learn to read.

Just because he CLAIMS to be in a caloric deficit, that doesn't mean he IS. What part of that did you fail to understand???

Learn to read. Why not ASK him yourself?

Do you think he's flat out lying?(why would he do that?) Or miscalculting his calories? (seems to be keeping a pretty strict log)

and I eat the same or similar foods every damn day :grumble:

zipnguyen

Math is a very clear victor in this situation. You CANNOT physically gain MASS while consuming a DEFICIT of calories vs expenditure. It's one of the fundamental laws of physics. You CAN engorge existing muscles, reduce the fat around them, and other biological effects that can give the ILLUSION of added mass, but it is quite simply physically impossible to build something out of nothing. It's like trying to build a pile of coal in the middle of a fire. Unless you pile more coal on than the fire can consume, it just keeps burning it up.

If someone claims to have added muscle mass while consuming a deficit of calories, they are not correct. Whether they are lying or simply uninformed/misinformed is another discussion.

Not lying... Probably misinformed. I have a Ph.D. In finance and not certifications in nutrition nor have degrees in that field. So for chrimeny sakes no new thread is needed.

heybales

How do you build muscle while losing fat on a caloric deficit diet?

The excess energy comes from using the stored fat for your energy needs, and the protein intake for muscle building.
So you might picture it this way. You are deficit by 500 cal/day, but because of your fat burning to supply most energy needs, while your muscles get the best of everything, you are like 750 cal/day from the point of view of your fat systems. Made up figures BTW, but that's the point, it's not zero-sum gain within the system of your body. You can get your muscles what they want to grow, you just make sure your fat loses out more.
It's not like all your energy needs are taken care of by what you eat.

An already lean muscular body type would be difficult/impossible, not probably the majority using this site - who are here to lose weight, dare I say fat weight.

Studies you want, sure, here are a few. If a weight lifter, might enjoy a site that might be called home.

http://www.musclehack.com/how-to-build-muscle-and-lose-fat-at-the-same-time/

http://www.exrx.net/FatLoss/DietExStudy.html

http://www.exrx.net/FatLoss/WTCalLBWStudy.html

http://www.exrx.net/FatLoss/WT&End.html

Each of those synopsis pages has the study at the bottom.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/12077732?dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000,f1000m,isrctn
Thus, we conclude that a carbohydrate-restricted diet resulted in a significant reduction in fat mass and a concomitant increase in lean body mass in normal-weight men, which may be partially mediated by the reduction in circulating insulin concentrations.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/9417152?dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000,f1000m,isrctn

Are these overweight folks, new to weight lifting? Of course!

But if you lost 10 lbs weight, and 13 lbs was fat, and you gained 3lbs lean body weight, that ain't water and it ain't bone.

But I'm sorry about bringing this up again - who exactly thinks this site is inhabited by weight lifters? Might be a few after they lost weight and moved on to other goals, but lets be real about when that question is asked on this site.

good grief.

zipnguyen

Jeff92se and RonSwanson66 need to work out their sexual tension.

@jsuaccounting - hilarious wasn't it?

zipnguyen

As stated, noobie lifters can make muscle gains on a deficit because their muscles are completely untrained and easy to build. You will also get rapid strength gains (assuming you are training properly) compared to that of someone with trained muscles. Enjoy it while it lasts! I am personally still experiencing noob gains I think - my measurements and bf% are shrinking while I stay the same weight (muscle building very slowly).

In general, though, you must eat a caloric surplus to build muscle, that is correct. Otherwise, where is your body going to get the material and energy to create entirely new matter? Out of thin air? :P

SugarBine is right about newbie lifters. I am not new to lifting though. Nutrition on the other hand I've just barely nailed down a few years back.

zipnguyen

Self reported as in what? Logs, scales, pictures, history, calorie history?

Are you serious? Do you understand the difference between self-reported and objectively observed data?

Have you ever taken a science class?

Seriously? Why haven't you jumped into that guy's thread and tell he's full of crap??? Tell him to take a science class right?

I assume his training is based on Layne Norton's advice. Which as you probably have ignored:

currently working on my PhD at university of Illinois specializing in skeletal muscle protein metabolism. The purpose of this site is to provide information about bodybuilding and also to provide information about myself

If you are implying that his training is based on flying blind, it's not. It's also backed up by the article I just posted.

But I love the nosensical sematics batlle. Like your less than whitty quips really quantify anything resembling a debatable point.

He does mention a bulking session coming up. I'll assume he'll go into a carefully planned calorie surplus then. BUT it doesn't discount what he just accomplished and the methods he did to achieve them.

Uh Jeff, I believe Layne finished his Ph.D. So it should be Dr. Norton technically speaking.

heybales

In general, though, you must eat a caloric surplus to build muscle, that is correct. Otherwise, where is your body going to get the material and energy to create entirely new matter? Out of thin air? :P

I love this theory of how can the body build muscle if you are taking in less calories than it needs? Get real folks. And this quote used was merely the nice concise way of saying it, so it was used over the others.

Lets think about this for a minute. With that theory, then how exactly can anyone live on a calorie deficit at all? Your body is rebuilding cells all the time, growing hair (maybe), nails, replacing skin.

There are new things being built ALL THE TIME in your body on a calorie deficit diet.

HOW? Because you are hopefully eating/exercising in a way that you are using your extra fat stores for energy use, while the new stuff you take in is used for all the normal functions of the body.

Building muscle at a deficit is NO DIFFERENT. You just need the excess fat such that the body doesn't feel threatened by it being used for energy, while the protein you take in is used to build muscle.

And you don't have to be obese for that to work. But the closer you get to bodies fail safe for fat storage, the more careful you have to be so it doesn't start keeping the fat and using the food you eat.

zipnguyen

How do you build muscle while losing fat on a caloric deficit diet?

The excess energy comes from using the stored fat for your energy needs, and the protein intake for muscle building.
So you might picture it this way. You are deficit by 500 cal/day, but because of your fat burning to supply most energy needs, while your muscles get the best of everything, you are like 750 cal/day from the point of view of your fat systems. Made up figures BTW, but that's the point, it's not zero-sum gain within the system of your body. You can get your muscles what they want to grow, you just make sure your fat loses out more.
It's not like all your energy needs are taken care of by what you eat.

An already lean muscular body type would be difficult/impossible, not probably the majority using this site - who are here to lose weight, dare I say fat weight.

Studies you want, sure, here are a few. If a weight lifter, might enjoy a site that might be called home.

http://www.musclehack.com/how-to-build-muscle-and-lose-fat-at-the-same-time/

http://www.exrx.net/FatLoss/DietExStudy.html

http://www.exrx.net/FatLoss/WTCalLBWStudy.html

http://www.exrx.net/FatLoss/WT&End.html

Each of those synopsis pages has the study at the bottom.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/12077732?dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000,f1000m,isrctn
Thus, we conclude that a carbohydrate-restricted diet resulted in a significant reduction in fat mass and a concomitant increase in lean body mass in normal-weight men, which may be partially mediated by the reduction in circulating insulin concentrations.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/9417152?dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000,f1000m,isrctn

Are these overweight folks, new to weight lifting? Of course!

But if you lost 10 lbs weight, and 13 lbs was fat, and you gained 3lbs lean body weight, that ain't water and it ain't bone.

But I'm sorry about bringing this up again - who exactly thinks this site is inhabited by weight lifters? Might be a few after they lost weight and moved on to other goals, but lets be real about when that question is asked on this site.

good grief.

High-fiving heybales right now, don't know if we connected though...:laugh:

zipnguyen

I'm currently eating at 1000 calorie deficit in order to lose 2lb per week and have been doing so since May. I do 4 days strength training per week but for the past few months have noticed next to no no muscular gains. I have been coming down in body fat/scale weight but my strength doesn't seem to have increased one bit for the last 3 months or so as I am still lifting same weight for each exercise and struggling to go any higher. Like most are saying in this thread, I am putting this down to the large calorie deficit and resulting reduction in body fat/muscle mass.

So if one can't build muscle whilst eating at a calorie deficit, how about when in maintenance? is it possible to build muscle whilst maintaining or can it only be done when eating a calorie surplus?

Really? 1,000 cals/day

zipnguyen

He also gained muscle going from 175lbs to about 177lbs. While already pretty lean.

Not to mention he was training at a calorie deficit the entire time(according to him)

Well he didn't gain 2 pounds eating at a calorie deficit. Unless it was water weight from majorly increasing carbs. That is physically impossible.

In my defense I did get leaner though and heavier weights...it wasnt a refeed day or anything. Or after a cheat meal. I don't even know what a cheat meal feels like anymore.

zipnguyen

Here is a great article http://www.simplyshredded.com/layne-norton-the-most-effective-cutting-diet.html - that's my coach... Basically, eat enough protein and fats for your level of lean mass and fill in the rest of your caloric needs with carbs. Find out what maintainence is for you and deduct the carb numbers that will help you lose weight. I can go on and on about the process of testing "what" does "what" to your body and the optimal macronutrient composition for you, but again, testing to see what does what to your body takes some time.

I'm still learning to test to see what's optimal. I will say one thing, when you get your metabolism functioning optimally, you can increase your carb allowance to 500 grams so the next time you diet on say 200-250 grams it's high enough where you can still eat and have fun and not starve yourself too badly. I remember the days of eating 30-90 grams of carbs a day - that was not fun at all. No one knows hell, until they've been on an extremely low-carb diet

Now that my metabolism is on fire (thanks to my coach) I'm at about 375 grams per day and I'm not putting on any weight. He figures I'll top out at 400-500 grams somewhere, I think closer to 500 grams, which is about 2000 calories from carbs only. This is fun!!!

In short, I didn't gain the weight back and I went from as low as 30grams to 375 grams, but it took time and Layne meticulously and methodically increased it and other macronutrient variables that "tries" to optimize my metabolism. Simply put, he just tells me how much of carbs/fat/protein to eat and it's up to me to figure it out and eat the foods that will hit those macros.

Now I sit at 177-180 and I'm leaner NOW than I was at 175. Doesn't sound like a lot but, the 2-3 lbs I've gain has totally changed the way I look.

Layne and I compared how I looked at 178lbs at two different points in time spaced roughly 3 months a part and visually I look so different. The last time I was 178lbs when I was dieting down and through that number I was flat, and relatively flabby. And the more recent photo of me at 178lbs I'm bigger and much leaner (much leaner). So what ever it is he's doing, it's working.

Check out my post on blood test and my triglyceride numbers, it's low for someone eating the amount of carbs I'm eating, and my cholesterol - damn. It's like I'm 18 again!!! 110 cholesterol with HDL/LDL ratio that's almost double what is considered "good" I have the metabolism of a marathon runner my physician saids, but the ironic thing is I only do cardio 2x per week :bigsmile:

So I think it's finding the optimal amount of diet and exercise. Now what "is" optimal is different for different people I guess. There are some guys like Alberto Nunez (google him) that can diet on 400grams of carbs per day and refeeds on 1000 grams of carbs. I don't think I will ever get there. He's 5'9" and competes at 160lbs as a natural bodybuilder. And then there's my coach, Layne Norton, who when dieting has to get as low as 100-150 grams dieting for a show. Layne, I believe, competes at 196 lbs at 5'10". They might not sound "huge" but if you google them, they are massive because they are at those weights literally with no fat on their persons....

I hope this helps,
N

He gained weight(assuming muscle for how cut he is) and leaned out at the same time. But to qualify, he's paying 10x more attention to his nutriution than most of us.

I admire Layne Norton, but I'm going to bet that although he claims being natural, there's some enhancement going on. It's so rare to find naturals that have always been naturals their whole life and compete at such a high level.

A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

You just found one. And hence I lack calves, traps and forearms.

zipnguyen

Because I really don't care enough about one man's claims. It's not that important to me what he believes. Why are you so obsessed with his one story, that you blatantly ignore all actual science and fact?

Do you dispute that you cannot create something out of nothing? Do you believe that the human body can magically create more mass out of thin air? Just use some logical, critical thinking.

No I think Jeff is curious about how I did it and how I am currently doing it and how it could potentially apply to him. The academic minutia can get somewhat cumbersome and application is even more so; so if I seemed to pull off what looks to be pretty damn cool, I think others would like to know my approach as opposed to mTOR this and gluco-something-or-other pathway that...

zipnguyen

OMG STFU, this thread is still going? What are you, a bunch of 12 year olds? Disagreements, they happen. No one is changing anyone else's mind here, so just move on! Your penises are all the same size as they were before this thread started, I promise.

Run along now, the grown-ups are talking.

^^^now that was funny...... :laugh:

zipnguyen

OMG STFU, this thread is still going? What are you, a bunch of 12 year olds? Disagreements, they happen. No one is changing anyone else's mind here, so just move on! Your penises are all the same size as they were before this thread started, I promise.

Run along now, the grown-ups are talking.

In circles.




also, BWAHAHAHAHAHHAAA

Again high fiving, but again don't know if it connected.

zipnguyen

I'm with the other guy on this!
MAGIC!

Seem like it huh.... I like to think hard work to get back to my former shape. But will take magic as it is funny when used at that precise moment. :laugh:

zipnguyen

@JaxDiablo - nearly 150 posts and did you get the answer you were looking for buddy?

tigersword

How do you build muscle while losing fat on a caloric deficit diet?

The excess energy comes from using the stored fat for your energy needs, and the protein intake for muscle building.
So you might picture it this way. You are deficit by 500 cal/day, but because of your fat burning to supply most energy needs, while your muscles get the best of everything, you are like 750 cal/day from the point of view of your fat systems. Made up figures BTW, but that's the point, it's not zero-sum gain within the system of your body. You can get your muscles what they want to grow, you just make sure your fat loses out more.
It's not like all your energy needs are taken care of by what you eat.

An already lean muscular body type would be difficult/impossible, not probably the majority using this site - who are here to lose weight, dare I say fat weight.

This ignores a fundamental principle in human metabolism. Homeostasis. Muscle is extremely metabolically active, meaning it takes large amounts of calories to support. If you aren't taking in enough calories, and your body has to use fat stores in order to get through the day, the last thing it is going to do is add extremely high maintenance tissue that would require MORE calories to sustain, increasing metabolism. When you're in a calorie deficit the body will actively work to slow your metabolism, hence it stalls adding new muscle mass, and also changes hormone levels to slow down metabolism and calorie burn, to conserve fuel. Remember, the body is designed to store fat, burning fat is considered highly stressful, so the body is not going to respond by building new systems to support, it's going to restrict activity to keep the bare minimum calorie burn required.

Studies you want, sure, here are a few. If a weight lifter, might enjoy a site that might be called home.


http://www.musclehack.com/how-to-build-muscle-and-lose-fat-at-the-same-time/

This article talks about a study you linked to, which the study in question had nothing to do with calorie deficit, as the subjects were told to eat at maintenance, since they were not overweight. Irrelevant to the discussion on building muscle on a calorie deficit.

http://www.exrx.net/FatLoss/DietExStudy.html

http://www.exrx.net/FatLoss/WTCalLBWStudy.html

Lean mass gain does not automatically equal muscle gain, and there isn't enough information here to draw a useful conclusion, particularly since the lean mass gains are very small, most likely water or an increase in bone density. Without having access to the complete body composition, it's impossible to tell.

http://www.exrx.net/FatLoss/WT&End.html

This doesn't say anything about caloric consumption.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/12077732?dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000,f1000m,isrctn
Thus, we conclude that a carbohydrate-restricted diet resulted in a significant reduction in fat mass and a concomitant increase in lean body mass in normal-weight men, which may be partially mediated by the reduction in circulating insulin concentrations.

This is the study that the first article mentioned, and it has nothing to do with eating at a calorie defect, it states right in the abstract that they were normal weight men, consuming enough calories to maintain total weight. How is that relevant to building muscle on a calorie deficit?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/9417152?dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000,f1000m,isrctn

Are these overweight folks, new to weight lifting? Of course!

But if you lost 10 lbs weight, and 13 lbs was fat, and you gained 3lbs lean body weight, that ain't water and it ain't bone.

But I'm sorry about bringing this up again - who exactly thinks this site is inhabited by weight lifters? Might be a few after they lost weight and moved on to other goals, but lets be real about when that question is asked on this site.

good grief.

That last survey was 6 CHILDREN as the sample size, hardly an indicative study on how calorie deficit works in the majority of the adult population.

tigersword

I'm with the other guy on this!
MAGIC!

Seem like it huh.... I like to think hard work to get back to my former shape. But will take magic as it is funny when used at that precise moment. :laugh:

Former shape? So you used to be a builder? Because that actually would explain everything, and it's a part that the guy that brought you up in this thread left out.

3 exceptions to not building muscle on a calorie deficit, the morbidly obese, beginners, and former athletes returning after a layoff. The length of the layoff doesn't matter, the fact that you were in that kind of shape before makes it possible for you to get back there. It doesn't make it easy, it just makes it possible. Mystery solved.