I'm confused weight lifting/cardio/muscle question...

zipnguyen

I'm with the other guy on this!
MAGIC!

Seem like it huh.... I like to think hard work to get back to my former shape. But will take magic as it is funny when used at that precise moment. :laugh:

Former shape? So you used to be a builder? Because that actually would explain everything, and it's a part that the guy that brought you up in this thread left out.

3 exceptions to not building muscle on a calorie deficit, the morbidly obese, beginners, and former athletes returning after a layoff. The length of the layoff doesn't matter, the fact that you were in that kind of shape before makes it possible for you to get back there. It doesn't make it easy, it just makes it possible. Mystery solved.

.

Sorry, in my thread I mentioned I lifted for 19-20 years, but there was a 6-8 year break. I don't really know when the "stopping" of the official "intense" lifting happened. It just kinda crept up on me, missing 1 workout here and then 2-3 workouts there and then missing a week, month...months, etc. and then starting off and on again during that period of time with marriage, kids, businesses, it was tough and brutal. I packed on 1-2 lbs per month of fat weight over that span of time and BAM 96 lbs heavier.

Not a great feeling when one used to be fit and in shape...

zipnguyen

@tigersword. Just peaked at your bio, you got 70lbs to lose/lost right? You are pretty much in the same boat though I was no? I am 34 and the 96lbs kinda crept up on me over a 6-8 year period. How are you approaching it?

Jeff92se

"Their" argument is that you cannot gain at all. After viewing the pics, "they" claimed you gained nothing. Well after losing a signifcant amount of weight, you'd actually have to gain in order to even stay the same. Or you appear sigificantly smaller.

And much of your progress was made AFTER. you at a pretty high bodyfat level.

I guess the question is, are you bigger now than you were before you gained all that weight? tiger's implication is that if you lifted before, you could get back to where you were, but that's it for muscle mass. You can't add to your previous muscle mass without a calorie surplus diet. (which it looks like you didn't necessarily do because you were losing fat thoughout the process)

tigersword

@tigersword. Just peaked at your bio, you got 70lbs to lose/lost right? You are pretty much in the same boat though I was no? I am 34 and the 96lbs kinda crept up on me over a 6-8 year period. How are you approaching it?

Well, I certainly don't have the advantage of being a former lifter. :laugh: In fact I was pretty much exercise and gym illiterate until about 6 months ago. I started at 260 pounds and 35% body fat. I got a food scale and taught myself what a normal portion size actually is, and basically watched my food intake, while doing a light to moderate exercise plan, basically alternate days of treadmill jogging and full body machine circuits at the gym, no real direction, though, due to a lack of fundamental knowledge. I also started researching, how the body functions, how metabolism works, and basically the how to safely lose weight, and improve fitness levels. This was back in April, and I tracked everything I ate by hand. In June, a search in my iPhone app store led me to the MyFitnessPal app, which led me to this board, which certainly made tracking and research a lot easier.

In November I hit 50 pounds lost, and a 14% reduction in body fat. In real numbers, that's a loss of 46 pounds of fat, and about 4 pounds of lean body mass. Since I use calipers and calculators, I have no way of knowing what of that 4 pounds were muscle, water, or anything else, although I assume it was mostly muscle, due to my haphazard training. Once I hit 50 pounds I shifted to maintenance, to allow my hormone levels to reset and shift back, and also because I wanted to enjoy the holidays without any added stress from actively trying to lose weight. As of yesterday's weigh in, I've successfully maintained 210 pounds. After crunching all my numbers, I've decided to stay in maintenance over the next 6 months. I still have 21% body fat, which is on the higher end, but clothing wise, I'm actually wearing a smaller size than I wore in high school, when I weighed 40 pounds less. So my current plan is to eat at maintenance for the next 6 months, and concentrate on heavy barbell training, and then reevaluate over the summer.

zipnguyen

@tigersword. Just peaked at your bio, you got 70lbs to lose/lost right? You are pretty much in the same boat though I was no? I am 34 and the 96lbs kinda crept up on me over a 6-8 year period. How are you approaching it?

Well, I certainly don't have the advantage of being a former lifter. :laugh: In fact I was pretty much exercise and gym illiterate until about 6 months ago. I started at 260 pounds and 35% body fat. I got a food scale and taught myself what a normal portion size actually is, and basically watched my food intake, while doing a light to moderate exercise plan, basically alternate days of treadmill jogging and full body machine circuits at the gym, no real direction, though, due to a lack of fundamental knowledge. I also started researching, how the body functions, how metabolism works, and basically the how to safely lose weight, and improve fitness levels. This was back in April, and I tracked everything I ate by hand. In June, a search in my iPhone app store led me to the MyFitnessPal app, which led me to this board, which certainly made tracking and research a lot easier.

In November I hit 50 pounds lost, and a 14% reduction in body fat. In real numbers, that's a loss of 46 pounds of fat, and about 4 pounds of lean body mass. Since I use calipers and calculators, I have no way of knowing what of that 4 pounds were muscle, water, or anything else, although I assume it was mostly muscle, due to my haphazard training. Once I hit 50 pounds I shifted to maintenance, to allow my hormone levels to reset and shift back, and also because I wanted to enjoy the holidays without any added stress from actively trying to lose weight. As of yesterday's weigh in, I've successfully maintained 210 pounds. After crunching all my numbers, I've decided to stay in maintenance over the next 6 months. I still have 21% body fat, which is on the higher end, but clothing wise, I'm actually wearing a smaller size than I wore in high school, when I weighed 40 pounds less. So my current plan is to eat at maintenance for the next 6 months, and concentrate on heavy barbell training, and then reevaluate over the summer.

Sounds like a plan. Good luck to you. No scratch that, you don't need the luck. Outwork is more like it.

zipnguyen

"Their" argument is that you cannot gain at all. After viewing the pics, "they" claimed you gained nothing. Well after losing a signifcant amount of weight, you'd actually have to gain in order to even stay the same. Or you appear sigificantly smaller.

And much of your progress was made AFTER. you at a pretty high bodyfat level.

I guess the question is, are you bigger now than you were before you gained all that weight? tiger's implication is that if you lifted before, you could get back to where you were, but that's it for muscle mass. You can't add to your previous muscle mass without a calorie surplus diet. (which it looks like you didn't necessarily do because you were losing fat thoughout the process)

Jeff - I agree though the gains you see in the photo below is just due to good lighting, a tan, and "water weight" yeah...that's it... water weight... :laugh:

zipnguyen

Oh and Jeff, it's the posing as well. I pose better in the 2nd photo. And it must be the lighting. I told my wife that we need to get this type of lighting all over the house as to not make me look too fugly. :laugh:

Jeff92se

The peaks in your shoulders look higher to me? I don't know what the weight was in those two pictures but you have to add some in order to even stay the same size. (if you were losing weight/fat)

zipnguyen

The peaks in your shoulders look higher to me? I don't know what the weight was in those two pictures but you have to add some in order to even stay the same size. (if you were losing weight/fat)

I was joking. Yes back is much thicker and denser, but I have to do more work to get where I want to be. Again, picking stuff up and putting them back down is the easy part. Nutrition for me was the hardest part.

Jeff92se

The peaks in your shoulders look higher to me? I don't know what the weight was in those two pictures but you have to add some in order to even stay the same size. (if you were losing weight/fat)

I was joking. Yes back is much thicker and denser, but I have to do more work to get where I want to be. Again, picking stuff up and putting them back down is the easy part. Nutrition for me was the hardest part.

Well as you can see if you have reviewed this thread, you have to be very specific and clear to some.

zipnguyen

The peaks in your shoulders look higher to me? I don't know what the weight was in those two pictures but you have to add some in order to even stay the same size. (if you were losing weight/fat)

I was joking. Yes back is much thicker and denser, but I have to do more work to get where I want to be. Again, picking stuff up and putting them back down is the easy part. Nutrition for me was the hardest part.

Well as you can see if you have reviewed this thread, you have to be very specific and clear to some.

My bad... Will add humor or sarcasm div tags moving forward, but poor Jax didn't even get his answers I don't think

heybales

This ignores a fundamental principle in human metabolism. Homeostasis. Muscle is extremely metabolically active, meaning it takes large amounts of calories to support. If you aren't taking in enough calories, and your body has to use fat stores in order to get through the day, the last thing it is going to do is add extremely high maintenance tissue that would require MORE calories to sustain, increasing metabolism. When you're in a calorie deficit the body will actively work to slow your metabolism, hence it stalls adding new muscle mass, and also changes hormone levels to slow down metabolism and calorie burn, to conserve fuel. Remember, the body is designed to store fat, burning fat is considered highly stressful, so the body is not going to respond by building new systems to support, it's going to restrict activity to keep the bare minimum calorie burn required.

Oh, I didn't say you wouldn't have to re-adjust things.

Yes your metabolism goes up. So yes you might have to up your calories to maintain a realistic calorie deficit.
But still a deficit, just at a higher level.

Absolutely no different than eating back just your exercise calories. Still a built in deficit. How is it any different!

So worse case scenario folks hate to see happen after exercise which freaks them out. They workout for several weeks, clothes fit better, but the scale stays the same. (ok, weight gain is bigger scare).
They are losing fat, and gaining muscle. Muscle mass.

And yes, that fits into the 3 exceptions.

Same way anyone on here, and MFP in general, re-tunes your goal calories as you keep entering less weight. It figures your BMR hasn't changed much per pound (probably not correct), and your activity level is the same (perhaps), but since your weight went down, you BMR, maintenance, and goal calories all comes down.

The problem is, after anyone asks that question, most of us can look at their profile and see how much weight they are desiring to lose.
And in the majority of cases, the answer would be - "Yes, _you_ can lose weight and increase muscle - go for it".

For folks like Zip at his current level coming in asking, the answer would then be - "you would have an awfully hard time, and would need to be so diligent and careful"

heybales

Remember, the body is designed to store fat, burning fat is considered highly stressful, so the body is not going to respond by building new systems to support, it's going to restrict activity to keep the bare minimum calorie burn required.

Yes the body can be good at storing fat. And if you put it in a state it thinks it needs energy stores, it will increase fat storage and break down other things for energy.

But if burning fat is such a highly stressful process - why exactly is your main source of energy except when exercising at high levels - fat?

At rest the majority of your lowered energy needs by your muscles is - fat.

zipnguyen

For folks like Zip at his current level coming in asking, the answer would then be - "you would have an awfully hard time, and would need to be so diligent and careful"

@HeyBales - first, I read your bio. Congrats on the newborn. Mine is 4 weeks old. 3 kids total. And yes, I am pretty diligent and careful there are weeks where Layne would say ok, let's increase your carbs 30g. That's easy as that is about 1 serving of brown rice. Then other weeks he says, ok, lets increase your carbs by 5g.

5g!!!!!!! I could literally just walk by the local Cinnabon in the mall and inhale that amount of carbs via the flour and yeast in the air. Whether it will be metabolized is, of course, a different issue.

But yes, it's a pretty meticulous and methodical process. And the fat grams increases can be as little 2g or as high as 10g per week.

So it takes "some" planning.

heybales

I think the weight lifters among us forget who the majority on this particular site would be.

And if someone asks, can I lose weight and gain muscle, odds are the answer would be yes.

Actually, since several folks on here always list 3 exceptions that can accomplish that, but then state no you can't, it really should go the other way around.

Yes you can lose weight and gain muscle, unless you are already ripped and lifting, then no. Only one exception to the rule then.