Legit question regarding building muscle and calories

kcdrake

Okay, I know enough from the boards that there is a common discussion/argument. Someone will wonder why they are gaining weight when they're working out *sooooooo hard.* And one of the responses will be 'because muscle weighs more than fat' (which is a whole other can of misinformed worms that I'm not touching right now), but then this person is now told that you "can't build muscle when on a calorie defect."

And that is what confuses me. Why can't you gain some muscle when eating at MFP recommended levels?
Personally, I can feel my muscles toning up after my 3 weeks of running. They're not bulky or anything, but definitely more toned than they were. Yet, I'm told that this can't happen. :ohwell: Also, if you're eating well and eating a ratio of carbs/fat/protein that works for you, why wouldn't your body be able to both build and tone some muscle while simultaneously losing fat? Especially if you incorporate some cardio exercises that tone the body (Like running or Turbo Fire).

I'm really not trying to spark some crazy debate here, I'm just looking for clarification of a phrase that seems to be thrown around a lot here on MFP.

2fit4fat

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Elleinnz

Here is an extract from Marc David - Beginner's Guide to Fitness and Bodybuilding

" The goal on a cutting diet is to eat 10-20% below your maintenance calories in order to burn as much fat as possible without sacrificing muscle. On any cutting diet, some muscle loss is almost inevitable, but your goal is to maintain as much lean body mass as possible.

A beginner is much more likely to build muscle and burn fat at the same time. (That's why being a beginner is pretty cool). For a beginner, almost anything works because your body isn't used to the stress of training, so great "beginner gains"can be made with virtually any training program.

But after about 6 months, the gains slow down, then nearly stops as you become more advanced and get closer to the limits of your genetic potential. "

Obese people are also able to build muscle on a calorie defecit (I am a good example of this......but it is getting harder and harder to build new muscle now I am getting closer to my goal)

People that used to train hard - and then gave up tend to see good gains as well when they get back into training....

So it is not all bad news - and there are definitely enough people lifting heavy that have seen some sort of gains on a calorie deficit - none of them will most probably win bodybuilding competitions - but they will look and feel much better than before they lifted heavy...... HEAVY being the operative word!!

thefuzz1290

There is no such thing as "toning." You're either building muscle or not. You will create muscle even in a calorie deficit diet, but not as much as if you were eating more. The "toning" affect you see is low body fat percentage.

kcdrake

So it is not all bad news - and there are definitely enough people lifting heavy that have seen some sort of gains on a calorie deficit - none of them will most probably win bodybuilding competitions - but they will look and feel much better than before they lifted heavy...... HEAVY being the operative word!!

You will create muscle even in a calorie deficit diet, but not as much as if you were eating more.

Thanks for the information! What I'm understanding is that you will probably will build some muscle, but you won't gain a lot of muscle mass when you're eating on a deficit. That makes sense to me. I'm just trying to make sense of the common phrases flung around MFP and trying to understand what my body is doing. :laugh:

jacksonpt

Assumption: building muscle means growing new tissue, not strengthening existing muscle.

There is no such thing as "toning." You're either building muscle or not. You will create muscle even in a calorie deficit diet, but not as much as if you were eating more. The "toning" affect you see is low body fat percentage.

Wrong. Or at least for the most part you are wrong.

People new to heavy lifting can grow new a very small amount of new muscle for a very short period of time. The body requires a calorie surplus to build muscle tissue.

You can't build an addition onto your house without a surplus of building materials. See the parallel?

You can strengthen existing muscle on a deficit. So you can get stronger. You can't get bigger.

The part about toning is correct... Toning refers to exposing existing muscle by burning the fat that hides it.

jacksonpt

. I'm just trying to make sense of the common phrases flung around MFP and trying to understand what my body is doing. :laugh:

That's great... I wish more people would do this rather than mis-using terms.

MaximalLife

Here is an extract from Marc David - Beginner's Guide to Fitness and Bodybuilding

" The goal on a cutting diet is to eat 10-20% below your maintenance calories in order to burn as much fat as possible without sacrificing muscle. On any cutting diet, some muscle loss is almost inevitable, but your goal is to maintain as much lean body mass as possible.

A beginner is much more likely to build muscle and burn fat at the same time. (That's why being a beginner is pretty cool). For a beginner, almost anything works because your body isn't used to the stress of training, so great "beginner gains"can be made with virtually any training program.

But after about 6 months, the gains slow down, then nearly stops as you become more advanced and get closer to the limits of your genetic potential. "

Obese people are also able to build muscle on a calorie defecit (I am a good example of this......but it is getting harder and harder to build new muscle now I am getting closer to my goal)

People that used to train hard - and then gave up tend to see good gains as well when they get back into training....

So it is not all bad news - and there are definitely enough people lifting heavy that have seen some sort of gains on a calorie deficit - none of them will most probably win bodybuilding competitions - but they will look and feel much better than before they lifted heavy...... HEAVY being the operative word!!

^^^^^^^
THIS
I was all ready to wax eloquent, but I can't follow this.
Thanks for posting!

HeidiMightyRawr

Generally speaking, while you are on a calorie deficit (to lose fat), you cannot build muscle. Most people in fact lose some muscle while on a deficit, this is why strength training and getting enough protein are important, as you can preserve the muscle you have.

Some people gain muscle on a deficit:
1) Those who are obese.
2) Those who are new to lifting weights.

If you are neither it's unlikely you will. However, when you shed fat, your muscles become more prominent. You haven't built any, you're just revealing what you had in the first place, creating more of a toned look. You can also get stronger while on a deficit, making it even more convincing that you've built muscle.

freerange

Assumption: building muscle means growing new tissue, not strengthening existing muscle.

There is no such thing as "toning." You're either building muscle or not. You will create muscle even in a calorie deficit diet, but not as much as if you were eating more. The "toning" affect you see is low body fat percentage.

Wrong. Or at least for the most part you are wrong.

People new to heavy lifting can grow new a very small amount of new muscle for a very short period of time. The body requires a calorie surplus to build muscle tissue.

You can't build an addition onto your house without a surplus of building materials. See the parallel?

You can strengthen existing muscle on a deficit. So you can get stronger. You can't get bigger.

The part about toning is correct... Toning refers to exposing existing muscle by burning the fat that hides it.

Well, here is my $.02 worth. It depends, you can build new muscle while “eating” at a calorie deficit, but that’s because your body is burning stored fat, so in reality you are not at a deficit, you are adding the calories burned from stored fat to the calories eaten. True if your main goal is to build new muscle you should be eating more, but the goal of losing weight (fat) and building new muscle is obtainable, you’re not going to be putting on pounds of new muscle overnight, but you can put on new muscle.

ALH1981

i am pretty small and it seems that whatever weight-work or strenthg training i do i GAIN muslce almost immediately - i cant explain the reasons for this, other than perhaps becuase im small that it shows easily?/

i do know that the scales go up very fast, and that if i have a few days 'off' the gym' i lose... go figrue?!

rybo

Well, here is my $.02 worth. It depends, you can build new muscle while “eating” at a calorie deficit, but that’s because your body is burning stored fat, so in reality you are not at a deficit, you are adding the calories burned from stored fat to the calories eaten. True if your main goal is to build new muscle you should be eating more, but the goal of losing weight (fat) and building new muscle is obtainable, you’re not going to be putting on pounds of new muscle overnight, but you can put on new muscle.

This is what I've always thought could happen & wonderd why more people didn't say this more. It seems to make sense to me.

jacksonpt

Muscle and fat are two completely different types of cells... your body can in no way convert one to the other. Your body cannot convert muscle into fat and you cannot convert fat into muscle.

bcattoes

I've also wondered about the many posts saying you can't gain muscle while eating a deficit or that you can't gain muscle without eating 1 gram of protein per lb (or gram, as there seems to be debate even over that) of body weight or without lifing heavy.

Well, the heaviest weights I have are 15 lbs dumbells. I use them for 30 min 2-3 times a week. My arms are no smaller (I've measured) but they are firmer and I if I flex them I can see what appears to be a muscle bulge that wasn't there before. Since the arm is the same size, either I have indeed built muscle on a deficit using my fairly light weights, or I've gained more fat that just happens to bulge when I flex my arm.

I don't really care which it is since my arms are firm, but logic makes me think it's muscle.

tangal88

i am pretty small and it seems that whatever weight-work or strenthg training i do i GAIN muslce almost immediately - i cant explain the reasons for this, other than perhaps becuase im small that it shows easily?/

i do know that the scales go up very fast, and that if i have a few days 'off' the gym' i lose... go figrue?!

Usually this scale change - and "puffed muscle" or "more visible muscle" change you see when first starting a new training program, or upping weights, or increasing exercise regiment is NOT muscle gain or growth. If you are at a low bodyfat level - this will be very visible, especially right after exercising. You will see more pumped muscle, more definition. (looks pretty hot too)

Also - right after working out - the blood flow is increased in the muscle you are working - this also adds temporary fullness, and inch gain.

It is water, fluids, and Glycogen storage in the muscle. When muscles are first used, or stressed in a new different way, or weight is increased - they are damaged, and have tiny tears, This is good, as its key to encouraging your body to keep, repair, and with time build on new muscle tissue.

But to do this, the body fills the area with extra water, and glycogen pools in the tissue, making them look "puffier" then normal, or more defined. This can last a few days, even a week or two.

And it also increases scale weight. After a period of time, body adapts (or if you take time off from lifting, or get into a routine, where you are not increasing the stress load) - as the body adapts, it begins to release some of the extra water stores - and scale weight drops. Sometimes very dramatically.

If you change your routine often, increase weight often, you will see this bounce up and down pretty constantly. But overall , you will see inch loss in the long term picture, as fat levels drop.

I have easily gained 5 lbs in one day, when coming back from a rest period, and upping my lifting weight - and a week or so later - lost that 5 lbs. But overall size and inches really have not changed.

Its all water. Its also normal.

rjmwx81

Muscle and fat are two completely different types of cells... your body can in no way convert one to the other. Your body cannot convert muscle into fat and you cannot convert fat into muscle.

Right. But let's say, for the sake of argument, that I have a lot of fat to lose (which, as it turns out, I do). If I'm eating at a deficit, my body is going to be burning that fat for basic metabolic functions, correct? Meanwhile, I'm tearing the hell out of my muscle fibers by lifting heavy, and I'm eating protein in higher proportion to the other macros. Now, doesn't it make sense that my body's going to utilize that protein intake for muscle repair/growth, because that's basically *all* it can be used for? Meanwhile, energy for all other processes continue to come from stored fat and/or glucose (carbs) intake, yes?

So, in a simplified way, I *would* be burning fat to build muscle, it's just not a direct conversion, which is, as you say, impossible.

karadawn14

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freerange

Muscle and fat are two completely different types of cells... your body can in no way convert one to the other. Your body cannot convert muscle into fat and you cannot convert fat into muscle.

Don't recall anybody saying you could, this is kind of a strawman, you make up an argument that was not presented and shoot it down. Sorry, only works on children and fools.

freerange

Muscle and fat are two completely different types of cells... your body can in no way convert one to the other. Your body cannot convert muscle into fat and you cannot convert fat into muscle.

Right. But let's say, for the sake of argument, that I have a lot of fat to lose (which, as it turns out, I do). If I'm eating at a deficit, my body is going to be burning that fat for basic metabolic functions, correct? Meanwhile, I'm tearing the hell out of my muscle fibers by lifting heavy, and I'm eating protein in higher proportion to the other macros. Now, doesn't it make sense that my body's going to utilize that protein intake for muscle repair/growth, because that's basically *all* it can be used for? Meanwhile, energy for all other processes continue to come from stored fat and/or glucose (carbs) intake, yes?

So, in a simplified way, I *would* be burning fat to build muscle, it's just not a direct conversion, which is, as you say, impossible.

YES, this is exactly what happens!!!!!

Jeff92se

Muscle and fat are two completely different types of cells... your body can in no way convert one to the other. Your body cannot convert muscle into fat and you cannot convert fat into muscle.

No one said that happens. They are saying the body has an excess energy storage of fat or muscle. Both of which the body would use for fuel if needed. Ideally, one would want our bodies to use fat for fuel to help build muscle.

Jessicaruby

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