Legit question regarding building muscle and calories

jacksonpt

Fat can be used to fuel the muscles, which would lead to a deficit in fat, and a surplus of muscles.

Your body doesn't work like that.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html

He doesn't say its impossible, just that it is difficult just like I said.

Did you even read the article?

Then please explain how fat is used to fuel muscle growth, or how one can "burn a lot of fat while gaining muscle."

A detailed explanation of the metabolic processes involved please.

Not worth the time and effort to get into this with you. You are being deliberately obtuse because you have already decided everything I say must be false.

OK... but I haven't. Can you explain it to me?

While I generally agree with Lyle's stuff, I don't think he always hits the mark. So do I have an opinion? Yes. Can my mind be changed with solid info? Absolutely.

RonSwanson66

Not worth the time and effort to get into this with you.

Translation; "I made **** up that I can't support, so I'm going to pretend to take the high road"

You are being deliberately obtuse because you have already decided everything I say must be false.

If the shoe fits.

When your understanding of biochemistry and human physiology comes from Gary Taubes, this is pretty much guaranteed.

grinch031

Fat can be used to fuel the muscles, which would lead to a deficit in fat, and a surplus of muscles.

Your body doesn't work like that.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html

He doesn't say its impossible, just that it is difficult just like I said.

Did you even read the article?

Then please explain how fat is used to fuel muscle growth, or how one can "burn a lot of fat while gaining muscle."

A detailed explanation of the metabolic processes involved please.

Not worth the time and effort to get into this with you. You are being deliberately obtuse because you have already decided everything I say must be false.

OK... but I haven't. Can you explain it to me?

While I generally agree with Lyle's stuff, I don't think he always hits the mark. So do I have an opinion? Yes. Can my mind be changed with solid info? Absolutely.

I'm not going to pretend I'm an expert on how calories are used by the body and how muscle grows. But the guy in the article says its possible to gain muscle while losing fat which confirms my explanation of the energy equation.

armaretta

The number of calories your body burns depends on your energy output and your total muscle mass. It is slightly different for each individual.

That being said, it is firm fact that the more muscle you have, the more energy your body requires to function, even at rest.

The natural state of the human body is to reach for homeostasis.

If you are at a deficit, your body is going to want to use stored energy (i.e. fat) to fill in the deficit and maintain homeostasis

If your body is at a deficit, why would it create more muscle to make an even larger deficit, thus disrupting homestasis?

To create something, you need energy and matter from source. So, to create muscle, you need energy and matter from food.

To make new muscle, you need A + B + C = muscle (A=carbs, B=fat, C=protein)

You can not have B = muscle. There wouldn't be fat people if it worked that way.

There are very very special circumstances where you can have SMALL muscle gains on SLIGHT deficits or maintenance, but it will be a very small gain, if at all, and will be slow.

If someone tells you they built 20 POUNDS OF LEAN MEAN MUSCLE AND GOT RIPPED on a deficit, tell them "Congratulations!" because they broke physics.

RonSwanson66

I'm not going to pretend I'm an expert on how calories are used by the body and how muscle grows. But the guy in the article says its possible to gain muscle while losing fat which confirms my explanation of the energy equation.

Translation: "I'm going to stick with my false beliefs, evidence be damned."

grinch031

I'm not going to pretend I'm an expert on how calories are used by the body and how muscle grows. But the guy in the article says its possible to gain muscle while losing fat which confirms my explanation of the energy equation.

Translation: "I'm going to stick with my false beliefs, evidence be damned."

You are using a straw man argument against me. I said its possible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time. I didn't say the changes would be equivalent in mass. I didn't say fat turns into muscle. I said you can lose fat and gain muscle on an overall caloric deficit. An overall caloric deficit would mean that your fat stores decrease more than your muscle mass increases. If you are saying this is false, cite me some evidence that I'm wrong.

RonSwanson66

I didn't say fat turns into muscle. I said you can lose fat and gain muscle on an overall caloric deficit.

ORLY?

You said, and I quote:

Fat can be used to fuel the muscles, which would lead to a deficit in fat, and a surplus of muscles.

Please explain how fat is used to fuel muscle growth.

MassiveDelta

This is good stuff I love reading the opinions. I would like to see you guys cage match all together and who ever comes out alive obviously has the most solid theory because your muscles are better. WOOT

Please continue.

3dogsrunning

This is good stuff I love reading the opinions. I would like to see you guys cage match all together and who ever comes out alive obviously has the most solid theory because your muscles are better. WOOT

Please continue.

Love it!

grinch031

I didn't say fat turns into muscle. I said you can lose fat and gain muscle on an overall caloric deficit.

ORLY?

You said, and I quote:

Fat can be used to fuel the muscles, which would lead to a deficit in fat, and a surplus of muscles.

Please explain how fat is used to fuel muscle growth.

I like how you only focus on the least important point I'm trying to make. Fat can fuel muscle activity which can cause damage to the muscle fibers, which will lead to the body repairing it and growing. Although carbs play a much larger role because they are the primary fuel source used by the muscles for anaerobic activities.

freerange

I didn't say fat turns into muscle. I said you can lose fat and gain muscle on an overall caloric deficit.

ORLY?

You said, and I quote:

Fat can be used to fuel the muscles, which would lead to a deficit in fat, and a surplus of muscles.

Please explain how fat is used to fuel muscle growth.

Fat is used to fuel muscle growth, by fueling the bodies other activities, and letting the protein eaten be used to build muscle instead of being used for energy. And if you think muscle growth doesn't require more then just protein then you are a fool. When muscle is damaged, as in thru weight training, it takes energy to rebuild, that energy has to come from some place, and fat turned to energy is just as good as energy from carbs.

And no the quote you are using above does not say fat can be turned into muscle, something must be wrong with your ability to read, because the quote clearly says "to fuel muscles" it does not say fat can build muscles. When you have something real to contribute please come back, and bring your mommy so she can read these post to you and explain them to you before you make a bigger fool of yourself.

grinch031

I didn't say fat turns into muscle. I said you can lose fat and gain muscle on an overall caloric deficit.

ORLY?

You said, and I quote:

Fat can be used to fuel the muscles, which would lead to a deficit in fat, and a surplus of muscles.

Please explain how fat is used to fuel muscle growth.

Fat is used to fuel muscle growth, by fueling the bodies other activities, and letting the protein eaten be used to build muscle instead of being used for energy. And if you think muscle growth doesn't require more then just protein then you are a fool. When muscle is damaged, as in thru weight training, it takes energy to rebuild, that energy has to come from some place, and fat turned to energy is just as good as energy from carbs.

And no the quote you are using above does not say fat can be turned into muscle, something must be wrong with your ability to read, because the quote clearly says "to fuel muscles" it does not say fat can build muscles. When you have something real to contribute please come back, and bring your mommy so she can read these post to you and explain them to you before you make a bigger fool of yourself.

Its mostly about semantics with this guy. If you deviate from his meaning of every word or phrase even the slightest, he starts throwing ad hominem attacks at you. You can't win in an argument with him.

RonSwanson66

Its mostly about semantics with this guy. If you deviate from his meaning of every word or phrase even the slightest, he starts throwing ad hominem attacks at you. You can't win in an argument with him.

LOL

You don't even understand the meaning of ad hominem.

Your belief that fat can fuel muscle growth completely ignores all of the metabolic/hormonal adaptations required for muscular hypertrophy. You're relying far too much on your flawed "intuition" rather than looking at the science behind the process. When presented with such, you ignore it and/or pretend it actually supports your claims.

RonSwanson66

I didn't say fat turns into muscle. I said you can lose fat and gain muscle on an overall caloric deficit.

ORLY?

You said, and I quote:

Fat can be used to fuel the muscles, which would lead to a deficit in fat, and a surplus of muscles.

Please explain how fat is used to fuel muscle growth.

Fat is used to fuel muscle growth, by fueling the bodies other activities, and letting the protein eaten be used to build muscle instead of being used for energy. And if you think muscle growth doesn't require more then just protein then you are a fool. When muscle is damaged, as in thru weight training, it takes energy to rebuild, that energy has to come from some place, and fat turned to energy is just as good as energy from carbs.

Nope.

FTA:

"A known adaptation to fat loss is an improvement in insulin sensitivity especially in fat cells. This is part of why fat loss becomes more difficult as folks get leaner as well as why the risk of weight/fat gain is higher at the end of the diet (you’re MORE insulin sensitive). This means that the fat cells not only have less stored fat to give up but it becomes more difficult to get it out of there.

...


Furthermore, as folks become better trained, it becomes more difficult to gain muscle under any condition. The training stimulus is higher and the impact of training is lessened.

So the situation that was in place for the overfat beginner has reversed itself in someone who is leaner and/or better trained. Fat cells are no longer insulin resistant and ‘pushing fat calories’ away; quite in fact they are ready to take up excess calories at any time. And since training has a lesser impact on muscle growth, the odds of getting the calorie shunting effect becomes lower and lower approaching nil. Again, that’s on top of all of the hormonal stuff discussed in the above articles (e.g. fat loss and muscle gain requires different hormonal situations)."

And no the quote you are using above does not say fat can be turned into muscle, something must be wrong with your ability to read, because the quote clearly says "to fuel muscles" it does not say fat can build muscles. When you have something real to contribute please come back, and bring your mommy so she can read these post to you and explain them to you before you make a bigger fool of yourself.

LOL

Try reading what I said again.

MaximalLife

Its mostly about semantics with this guy. If you deviate from his meaning of every word or phrase even the slightest, he starts throwing ad hominem attacks at you. You can't win in an argument with him.

LOL

You don't even understand the meaning of ad hominem.

Your belief that fat can fuel muscle growth completely ignores all of the metabolic/hormonal adaptations required for muscular hypertrophy. You're relying far too much on your flawed "intuition" rather than looking at the science behind the process. When presented with such, you ignore it and/or pretend it actually supports your claims.

But my intentions are sincere...
And according to my outcome based education, thst should count for much.

Let's call it "Outcome Based Fitness" - intentions matter!

grinch031

Its mostly about semantics with this guy. If you deviate from his meaning of every word or phrase even the slightest, he starts throwing ad hominem attacks at you. You can't win in an argument with him.

LOL

You don't even understand the meaning of ad hominem.

Your belief that fat can fuel muscle growth completely ignores all of the metabolic/hormonal adaptations required for muscular hypertrophy. You're relying far too much on your flawed "intuition" rather than looking at the science behind the process. When presented with such, you ignore it and/or pretend it actually supports your claims.

Here we go again, you nitpick on the phrases you don't like that aren't 100% scientifically accurate and ignore the main point the person is trying to make.

freerange

I didn't say fat turns into muscle. I said you can lose fat and gain muscle on an overall caloric deficit.

ORLY?

You said, and I quote:

Fat can be used to fuel the muscles, which would lead to a deficit in fat, and a surplus of muscles.

Please explain how fat is used to fuel muscle growth.

Fat is used to fuel muscle growth, by fueling the bodies other activities, and letting the protein eaten be used to build muscle instead of being used for energy. And if you think muscle growth doesn't require more then just protein then you are a fool. When muscle is damaged, as in thru weight training, it takes energy to rebuild, that energy has to come from some place, and fat turned to energy is just as good as energy from carbs.

Nope.

FTA:

"A known adaptation to fat loss is an improvement in insulin sensitivity especially in fat cells. This is part of why fat loss becomes more difficult as folks get leaner as well as why the risk of weight/fat gain is higher at the end of the diet (you’re MORE insulin sensitive). This means that the fat cells not only have less stored fat to give up but it becomes more difficult to get it out of there.

...


Furthermore, as folks become better trained, it becomes more difficult to gain muscle under any condition. The training stimulus is higher and the impact of training is lessened.

So the situation that was in place for the overfat beginner has reversed itself in someone who is leaner and/or better trained. Fat cells are no longer insulin resistant and ‘pushing fat calories’ away; quite in fact they are ready to take up excess calories at any time. And since training has a lesser impact on muscle growth, the odds of getting the calorie shunting effect becomes lower and lower approaching nil. Again, that’s on top of all of the hormonal stuff discussed in the above articles (e.g. fat loss and muscle gain requires different hormonal situations)."

And no the quote you are using above does not say fat can be turned into muscle, something must be wrong with your ability to read, because the quote clearly says "to fuel muscles" it does not say fat can build muscles. When you have something real to contribute please come back, and bring your mommy so she can read these post to you and explain them to you before you make a bigger fool of yourself.

LOL

Try reading what I said again.

Don't need to, we both know what was said/wrote, and how you tried to spin it. And since you put so much faith in the link YOU provided, here are some quote from it.

clearly it’s not impossible as it does happen.  But it can sure be difficult depending on the situation.

There are a handful of situations where the combination of muscle gain and fat loss occur relatively readily.


A second situation where this phenomenon occurs readily is folks returning from a layoff.  Folks who are previously lean and muscular but who get out of shape (whether deliberately or not) often find that they get back into shape much faster than they did initially: they seem to magically replace fat with muscle. 

Please note that I’ve never really seen this topic studied directly and much of what I’m going to write is based on either observation or other known aspects of physiology that I feel tie into the issue.

And what happens under those circumstances is exactly what you’d expect: the body appears to take calories out of fat cells and use them to build muscle.  And this is effectively what is happening due to the combination of the above two factors. But the combination of the two is required.

What you might see is an initial shift where muscle ‘replaces’ fat due to the calorie shunting effect but invariably it slows down and either muscle gain or (more frequently) fat loss becomes dominant.

But more specific approaches can be effective in achieving this goal.  The Ultimate Diet 2.0 has often generated muscle gains while people dieted to single digit body fat levels (I’d note that the gain in muscle never reaches equality with the fat loss) but it also alternates specific dieting and gaining phases during the week.

But none of those approaches generate a muscle gain to equal the fat loss, at best they generate a small muscle gain in the face of a much larger fat loss (e.g. someone might lose a lot of fat while gaining a pound or two of muscle or what have you). 

So the idea of replacing every pound of lost fat with exactly one pound of muscle will be essentially impossible for the intermediate/advanced trainee.

RonSwanson66

I didn't say fat turns into muscle. I said you can lose fat and gain muscle on an overall caloric deficit.

ORLY?

You said, and I quote:

Fat can be used to fuel the muscles, which would lead to a deficit in fat, and a surplus of muscles.

Please explain how fat is used to fuel muscle growth.

Fat is used to fuel muscle growth, by fueling the bodies other activities, and letting the protein eaten be used to build muscle instead of being used for energy. And if you think muscle growth doesn't require more then just protein then you are a fool. When muscle is damaged, as in thru weight training, it takes energy to rebuild, that energy has to come from some place, and fat turned to energy is just as good as energy from carbs.

Nope.

FTA:

"A known adaptation to fat loss is an improvement in insulin sensitivity especially in fat cells. This is part of why fat loss becomes more difficult as folks get leaner as well as why the risk of weight/fat gain is higher at the end of the diet (you’re MORE insulin sensitive). This means that the fat cells not only have less stored fat to give up but it becomes more difficult to get it out of there.

...


Furthermore, as folks become better trained, it becomes more difficult to gain muscle under any condition. The training stimulus is higher and the impact of training is lessened.

So the situation that was in place for the overfat beginner has reversed itself in someone who is leaner and/or better trained. Fat cells are no longer insulin resistant and ‘pushing fat calories’ away; quite in fact they are ready to take up excess calories at any time. And since training has a lesser impact on muscle growth, the odds of getting the calorie shunting effect becomes lower and lower approaching nil. Again, that’s on top of all of the hormonal stuff discussed in the above articles (e.g. fat loss and muscle gain requires different hormonal situations)."

And no the quote you are using above does not say fat can be turned into muscle, something must be wrong with your ability to read, because the quote clearly says "to fuel muscles" it does not say fat can build muscles. When you have something real to contribute please come back, and bring your mommy so she can read these post to you and explain them to you before you make a bigger fool of yourself.

LOL

Try reading what I said again.

Don't need to, we both know what was said/wrote, and how you tried to spin it. And since you put so much faith in the link YOU provided, here are some quote from it.

clearly it’s not impossible as it does happen.  But it can sure be difficult depending on the situation.

There are a handful of situations where the combination of muscle gain and fat loss occur relatively readily.


A second situation where this phenomenon occurs readily is folks returning from a layoff.  Folks who are previously lean and muscular but who get out of shape (whether deliberately or not) often find that they get back into shape much faster than they did initially: they seem to magically replace fat with muscle. 

Please note that I’ve never really seen this topic studied directly and much of what I’m going to write is based on either observation or other known aspects of physiology that I feel tie into the issue.

And what happens under those circumstances is exactly what you’d expect: the body appears to take calories out of fat cells and use them to build muscle.  And this is effectively what is happening due to the combination of the above two factors. But the combination of the two is required.

What you might see is an initial shift where muscle ‘replaces’ fat due to the calorie shunting effect but invariably it slows down and either muscle gain or (more frequently) fat loss becomes dominant.

But more specific approaches can be effective in achieving this goal.  The Ultimate Diet 2.0 has often generated muscle gains while people dieted to single digit body fat levels (I’d note that the gain in muscle never reaches equality with the fat loss) but it also alternates specific dieting and gaining phases during the week.

But none of those approaches generate a muscle gain to equal the fat loss, at best they generate a small muscle gain in the face of a much larger fat loss (e.g. someone might lose a lot of fat while gaining a pound or two of muscle or what have you). 

So the idea of replacing every pound of lost fat with exactly one pound of muscle will be essentially impossible for the intermediate/advanced trainee.

Read the article carefully.

Then tell me where it says that fat can be used to fuel muscle growth (in anyone but an obese beginner).

bcattoes

All these links and rhetoric, yet none of it explains how as my weight goes down, my arms stay the same size, but they are firmer and I can see what appears to be a muscle bulge when I flex or twist them.

freerange

Read the article carefully.

Then tell me where it says that fat can be used to fuel muscle growth (in anyone but an obese beginner).

Well it say sit in a few places, but we both already know that, don't we, are you counting on people taking your word for what is in the article and not reading it for them self? LOL And the question was not can it be done for a well trained athlete, the question was simply can it be done. You really need to stop with the strawman arguments, it's not becoming.

It boils down to this, the question was asked, can you build muscle and lose fat at the same time. Period end of story, and the answer is yes. You are so invested in proving yourself right you have lost sight of the question, and lost sight of the FACT that even your feeble attempt to draw in expert witness to prove you right, you have proved yourself wrong. Fat can be used as calories to help in the muscle building process, and you can build muscle while at the same time losing fat. The proof is in your link. Thanks for playing.

RonSwanson66

All these links and rhetoric, yet none of it explains how as my weight goes down, my arms stay the same size, but they are firmer and I can see what appears to be a muscle bulge when I flex or twist them.

Increased blood flow and fluid retention is a well-known adaptation to training.

RonSwanson66

Read the article carefully.

Then tell me where it says that fat can be used to fuel muscle growth (in anyone but an obese beginner).

Well it say sit in a few places, but we both already know that, don't we, are you counting on people taking your word for what is in the article and not reading it for them self? LOL And the question was not can it be done for a well trained athlete, the question was simply can it be done. You really need to stop with the strawman arguments, it's not becoming.

It boils down to this, the question was asked, can you build muscle and lose fat at the same time. Period end of story, and the answer is yes. You are so invested in proving yourself right you have lost sight of the question, and lost sight of the FACT that even your feeble attempt to draw in expert witness to prove you right, you have proved yourself wrong. Fat can be used as calories to help in the muscle building process, and you can build muscle while at the same time losing fat. The proof is in your link. Thanks for playing.

Your lack of reading comprehension is astounding. It's been pointed out several times that obese beginners and athletes returning from a layoff are exceptions to the rule. But people still claim that this phenomenon happens in general

If you still believe this and, even worse, believe that the article supports this claim, then there's no hope for you.

Good luck with your wishful thinking.

jacksonpt

All these links and rhetoric, yet none of it explains how as my weight goes down, my arms stay the same size, but they are firmer and I can see what appears to be a muscle bulge when I flex or twist them.

Weight goes down because your are burning fat and/or losing water... ready for this... from your WHOLE body, not just one place.

Your arms stay the same size because of blood flow due to the stimulated muscles.

You see a muscle because you are reducing the amount of fat covering up said muscle.

Jeff92se

All these links and rhetoric, yet none of it explains how as my weight goes down, my arms stay the same size, but they are firmer and I can see what appears to be a muscle bulge when I flex or twist them.

Weight goes down because your are burning fat and/or losing water... ready for this... from your WHOLE body, not just one place.

Your arms stay the same size because of blood flow due to the stimulated muscles.

You see a muscle because you are reducing the amount of fat covering up said muscle.

I assume he's measuring/observing at a time not immediately after a workout. You're sort of picking and choosing yoru battle here.

Jeff92se

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/403233-lost-96lbs-and-made-top-10-in-physique-contest

freerange

Your lack of reading comprehension is astounding. It's been pointed out several times that obese beginners and athletes returning from a layoff are exceptions to the rule. But people still claim that this phenomenon happens in general

If you still believe this and, even worse, believe that the article supports this claim, then there's no hope for you.

Good luck with your wishful thinking.

There you go again, changing the argument to fit your belief. NO ONE CLAIMED it happens in general, let me repeat NO ONE CLAIMED in happens in general. The question was a simple one, and the answer is just as simple. Yes it can/does happen. And I glad to see you changed your statement, first is was "only" in obese people, now you included athletes retuning from a lay off. LOL what's next?

freerange

Next you will be including this in your statement?

But more specific approaches can be effective in achieving this goal. The Ultimate Diet 2.0 has often generated muscle gains while people dieted to single digit body fat levels (I’d note that the gain in muscle never reaches equality with the fat loss) but it also alternates specific dieting and gaining phases during the week.

grinch031

So I've been lifting weights for years (off and on). In the past 2 months I switched from a very bad high-carb diet to a low-carb diet and I have lost 15 lbs, and have been training for a marathon for 1 month now. I'm doing lots of cardio (4 hours a week), but also a moderate amount of lifting (2-3 times a week for 30-45 minutes). As part of my diet I have increased protein and fat a lot.

What can be said about the fact that my muscles are stronger, firmer, and I feel like chest actually grew in size, despite not retaining much water because of low glycogen stores most of the time? Is this normal?

Jeff92se

If fat cant' be used to fuel muscle growth then why do "obese" people get to use fat for such? And what is the definition of "obese" and at what BF% does this "obese" ability to build muscle while on a deficit stop?

RonSwanson66

Next you will be including this in your statement?

But more specific approaches can be effective in achieving this goal. The Ultimate Diet 2.0 has often generated muscle gains while people dieted to single digit body fat levels (I’d note that the gain in muscle never reaches equality with the fat loss) but it also alternates specific dieting and gaining phases during the week.

Key point bolded.

Muscle growth and fat loss are NOT occurring simultaneously.

Read the book.