Legit question regarding building muscle and calories

RonSwanson66

So I've been lifting weights for years (off and on). In the past 2 months I switched from a very bad high-carb diet to a low-carb diet and I have lost 15 lbs, and have been training for a marathon for 1 month now. I'm doing lots of cardio (4 hours a week), but also a moderate amount of lifting (2-3 times a week for 30-45 minutes). As part of my diet I have increased protein and fat a lot.

What can be said about the fact that my muscles are stronger, firmer, and I feel like chest actually grew in size, despite not retaining much water because of low glycogen stores most of the time? Is this normal?

No. You are a unique snowflake who is immune to the laws of thermodynamics.

As another poster stated:

Congratulations, you broke physics

grinch031

Next you will be including this in your statement?

But more specific approaches can be effective in achieving this goal. The Ultimate Diet 2.0 has often generated muscle gains while people dieted to single digit body fat levels (I’d note that the gain in muscle never reaches equality with the fat loss) but it also alternates specific dieting and gaining phases during the week.

Key point bolded.

Muscle growth and fat loss are NOT occurring simultaneously.

Read the book.

Can they happen in a staggered fashion such that you lose fat in the morning and gain muscle at night?

Jeff92se

There's no evidience that's a net caloric deficit or surplus per week. That statement indicates one could be net deficit/maintance or surplus and still make that statement true.

freerange

If fat cant' be used to fuel muscle growth then why do "obese" people get to use fat for such? And what is the definition of "obese" and at what BF% does this "obese" ability to build muscle while on a deficit stop?

It was explained in the link provided pretty well. It's easier for over fat people, the article doesn't use the word obese, because, and this is a, no **** moment, basically there is more fat to be used and the body is giving up that fat easier. Like most people don't already know the closer you are to your goal, the harder it is to get there.

Jeff92se

The Ultimate Diet 2.0 has often generated muscle gains while people dieted to single digit body fat levels

This statement is stating that the person is "dieting". Also is losing fat. A bulking phase in terms of what some of you are referring to can't have that happen. If you bulk to gain muscle, you also gain a lesser amount fat also. If you eat clean enough.

jacksonpt

I think there are 2 slightly different arguments being made here.

1 side is arguing that fat can be used as an energy source for repairing/building muscle in *some* people under *some* circumstances.

The other side is saying that it is uncommon and *very* unlikely to be the case for the majority of people on this site who claim to be benefactors of it.

Neither side is saying I can NEVER happen EVER, PERIOD. There was brief talk about whether or not the body can directly convert fat into muscle, but I think we are past that.

Does that sum it up, or am I missing something? While I like the conversation and debate for my personal knowledge, I sense a bit of a pissing match developing.

freerange

Next you will be including this in your statement?

But more specific approaches can be effective in achieving this goal. The Ultimate Diet 2.0 has often generated muscle gains while people dieted to single digit body fat levels (I’d note that the gain in muscle never reaches equality with the fat loss) but it also alternates specific dieting and gaining phases during the week.

Key point bolded.

Muscle growth and fat loss are NOT occurring simultaneously.

Read the book.

Can they happen in a staggered fashion such that you lose fat in the morning and gain muscle at night?

True, but most people would conclude that at the end of the week, if you lost three pounds of fat and gained one pound of muscle you are doing both at the "same" time. I will gladly concede you're technically correct that it is not happening "simutaneoulsy"

Jeff92se

Some are saying only the "obese" can use fat to build muscle. The problem is "obese" is never defined at a % and at what % it stops is also never defined.

RonSwanson66

Next you will be including this in your statement?

But more specific approaches can be effective in achieving this goal. The Ultimate Diet 2.0 has often generated muscle gains while people dieted to single digit body fat levels (I’d note that the gain in muscle never reaches equality with the fat loss) but it also alternates specific dieting and gaining phases during the week.

Key point bolded.

Muscle growth and fat loss are NOT occurring simultaneously.

Read the book.

Can they happen in a staggered fashion such that you lose fat in the morning and gain muscle at night?

This is the basic premise behind IF. The goal is basically alternating microcycles of "cutting" (fasting window) and "bulking" (feeding window).

The evidence is still equivocal as to its efficacy, but there is some anecdotal evidence that supports it. (See the Leangains.com site for more info).

freerange

So I've been lifting weights for years (off and on). In the past 2 months I switched from a very bad high-carb diet to a low-carb diet and I have lost 15 lbs, and have been training for a marathon for 1 month now. I'm doing lots of cardio (4 hours a week), but also a moderate amount of lifting (2-3 times a week for 30-45 minutes). As part of my diet I have increased protein and fat a lot.

What can be said about the fact that my muscles are stronger, firmer, and I feel like chest actually grew in size, despite not retaining much water because of low glycogen stores most of the time? Is this normal?

No. You are a unique snowflake who is immune to the laws of thermodynamics.

As another poster stated:

Congratulations, you broke physics

Translation LOL, it doesn't fit my believe system, so I must poke fun at you.

grinch031

Next you will be including this in your statement?

But more specific approaches can be effective in achieving this goal. The Ultimate Diet 2.0 has often generated muscle gains while people dieted to single digit body fat levels (I’d note that the gain in muscle never reaches equality with the fat loss) but it also alternates specific dieting and gaining phases during the week.

Key point bolded.

Muscle growth and fat loss are NOT occurring simultaneously.

Read the book.

Can they happen in a staggered fashion such that you lose fat in the morning and gain muscle at night?

True, but most people would conclude that at the end of the week, if you lost three pounds of fat and gained one pound of muscle you are doing both at the "same" time. I will gladly concede you're technically correct that it is not happening "simutaneoulsy"

So over longer periods of time, like a week or a month, is it possible to both lose fat, but also gain muscle such that the fat loss exceeds the muscle gain calorically, netting a caloric deficit overall?

grinch031

Next you will be including this in your statement?

But more specific approaches can be effective in achieving this goal. The Ultimate Diet 2.0 has often generated muscle gains while people dieted to single digit body fat levels (I’d note that the gain in muscle never reaches equality with the fat loss) but it also alternates specific dieting and gaining phases during the week.

Key point bolded.

Muscle growth and fat loss are NOT occurring simultaneously.

Read the book.

Can they happen in a staggered fashion such that you lose fat in the morning and gain muscle at night?

This is the basic premise behind IF. The goal is basically alternating microcycles of "cutting" (fasting window) and "bulking" (feeding window).

The evidence is still equivocal as to its efficacy, but there is some anecdotal evidence that supports it. (See the Leangains.com site for more info).

This could very well be why I broke the laws of physics. Because I don't count calories, I simply eat what my body wants when it wants it. Although I do make it a point to eat more after I exercise because it stimulates hunger, and also for recovery purposes. That is when I willingly eat foods higher in carbs.

freerange

So over longer periods of time, like a week or a month, is it possible to both lose fat, but also gain muscle such that the fat loss exceeds the muscle gain calorically, netting a caloric deficit overall?

Let me word this carefully so, we know who, can understand it. From all I have read, and from what I have seen, the answer is yes. But you have to be doing things right, you have to have the right nutrition paired with the right exercise program. Are you going to be able to do it using MFP calorie in calorie out simple calculations? Probably not, you will need to educate yourself in the finer points of how the body works. There are some good links already provided if you want to learn more. And don’t stop there read all you can and listen to your body, if it’s working for you, stick with what you are doing, if not try something else.

grinch031

So over longer periods of time, like a week or a month, is it possible to both lose fat, but also gain muscle such that the fat loss exceeds the muscle gain calorically, netting a caloric deficit overall?

Let me word this carefully so, we know who, can understand it. From all I have read, and from what I have seen, the answer is yes. But you have to be doing things right, you have to have the right nutrition paired with the right exercise program. Are you going to be able to do it using MFP calorie in calorie out simple calculations? Probably not, you will need to educate yourself in the finer points of how the body works. There are some good links already provided if you want to learn more. And don’t stop there read all you can and listen to your body, if it’s working for you, stick with what you are doing, if not try something else.

Yeah I figured it was possible overall, but I considered myself lucky to not have any negative problems as a result of my diet and cardio combination since I'm sort of winging the diet aspect of it.

I just think its funny that after all this arguing, it then comes out that you can accomplish this using an IF plan. Why the heck couldn't he just say that in the first place instead of saying fat loss and muscle gain are not possible at the same time?

RonSwanson66

So over longer periods of time, like a week or a month, is it possible to both lose fat, but also gain muscle such that the fat loss exceeds the muscle gain calorically, netting a caloric deficit overall?

Possibly, if some sort of cyclic approach is used.

Since you're a fan of the low-carb approach, you should take a look at Lyle McDonald's book "The Ketogenic Diet". He describes a number of methods that may be used to achieve what you're talking about (such as a TKD or CKD).

RonSwanson66

Let me word this carefully so, we know who, can understand it. From all I have read, and from what I have seen, the answer is yes. But you have to be doing things right, you have to have the right nutrition paired with the right exercise program. Are you going to be able to do it using MFP calorie in calorie out simple calculations? Probably not, you will need to educate yourself in the finer points of how the body works. There are some good links already provided if you want to learn more. And don’t stop there read all you can and listen to your body, if it’s working for you, stick with what you are doing, if not try something else.

Yeah I figured it was possible overall, but I considered myself lucky to not have any negative problems as a result of my diet and cardio combination since I'm sort of winging the diet aspect of it.

I just think its funny that after all this arguing, it then comes out that you can accomplish this using an IF plan. Why the heck couldn't he just say that in the first place instead of saying fat loss and muscle gain are not possible at the same time?

[/quote]

Because of the bolded statement.

Too many readers here believe that they can do just that, which is why I went after your statement that the body can use stored fat to fuel muscle growth.

grinch031

Because of the bolded statement.

Too many readers here believe that they can do just that, which is why I went after your statement that the body can use stored fat to fuel muscle growth.

No I think you just like to argue with people. Too caught up in the small details and not making the point you are trying to make very clear.

Jeff92se

Because of the bolded statement.

Too many readers here believe that they can do just that, which is why I went after your statement that the body can use stored fat to fuel muscle growth.

No I think you just like to argue with people. Too caught up in the small details and not making the point you are trying to make very clear.

You think!?! :bigsmile:

nikolaim5

Ok I haven't bothered to read most of this thread as the majority of it is just arguing, so I apologize if this has already been said.

You CAN build muscle on a caloric deficit. It's not an optimal or efficient way to build muscle but it can be done. Your deficit would have to be very moderate and your protein intake high. The lower your current bodyfat level and the more trained the individual, the harder it is.

So... is it possible? Yes. Should most people attempt it? No.

Jeff92se

Ok I haven't bothered to read most of this thread as the majority of it is just arguing, so I apologize if this has already been said.

You CAN build muscle on a caloric deficit. It's not an optimal or efficient way to build muscle but it can be done. Your deficit would have to be very moderate and your protein intake high. The lower your current bodyfat level and the more trained the individual, the harder it is.

So... is it possible? Yes. Should most people attempt it? No.

Agreed

Mixmode

So what type of cycle could one use to achieve both without having to do one then the other?

IE- Drop 50lbs of fat by way of calorie reduction and cardio, then build back muscle by way of calorie surplus & heavy lifting?

I would hate to think in order to be muscular with a fairly low % of body fat I gotta lose the weight first then start bulking up in a 2 step process.

Could one do a 1-month shred - 1 month bulk cycle and still meet their goals?

grinch031

So what type of cycle could one use to achieve both without having to do one then the other?

IE- Drop 50lbs of fat by way of calorie reduction and cardio, then build back muscle by way of calorie surplus & heavy lifting?

I would hate to think in order to be muscular with a fairly low % of body fat I gotta lose the weight first then start bulking up in a 2 step process.

Could one do a 1-month shred - 1 month bulk cycle and still meet their goals?

I think everyone agrees trying to do both at the same time is difficult. I would personally focus on dropping the 50lbs because that is going to make a heck of a lot more difference than adding some muscle. Once you get towards a lean state the fat loss slows down anyways, so why not then change the priority towards muscle increase?

Jeff92se

So what type of cycle could one use to achieve both without having to do one then the other?

IE- Drop 50lbs of fat by way of calorie reduction and cardio, then build back muscle by way of calorie surplus & heavy lifting?

I would hate to think in order to be muscular with a fairly low % of body fat I gotta lose the weight first then start bulking up in a 2 step process.

Could one do a 1-month shred - 1 month bulk cycle and still meet their goals?

If you have 50lbs of fat, then you'd probably be considered "obese". Either way, I'd lift heavy, do moderate cardio while on a calorie deficit. Get your bodyfat down to a good number and then re-evaluate. No sense in not using your fat stoes for building muscle if you can.

alphabettie

bump for info

Mixmode

So what type of cycle could one use to achieve both without having to do one then the other?

IE- Drop 50lbs of fat by way of calorie reduction and cardio, then build back muscle by way of calorie surplus & heavy lifting?

I would hate to think in order to be muscular with a fairly low % of body fat I gotta lose the weight first then start bulking up in a 2 step process.

Could one do a 1-month shred - 1 month bulk cycle and still meet their goals?

If you have 50lbs of fat, then you'd probably be considered "obese". Either way, I'd lift heavy, do moderate cardio while on a calorie deficit. Get your bodyfat down to a good number and then re-evaluate. No sense in not using your fat stoes for building muscle if you can.

Not really obese I am just a big dude. I am 6' 7" 40" waist. But thx for your input.

tigersword

So what type of cycle could one use to achieve both without having to do one then the other?

IE- Drop 50lbs of fat by way of calorie reduction and cardio, then build back muscle by way of calorie surplus & heavy lifting?

I would hate to think in order to be muscular with a fairly low % of body fat I gotta lose the weight first then start bulking up in a 2 step process.

Could one do a 1-month shred - 1 month bulk cycle and still meet their goals?

Cutting and bulking cycles are pretty much the standard. A couple months one way, then go a couple months the other way.

SHBoss1673

So what type of cycle could one use to achieve both without having to do one then the other?

IE- Drop 50lbs of fat by way of calorie reduction and cardio, then build back muscle by way of calorie surplus & heavy lifting?

I would hate to think in order to be muscular with a fairly low % of body fat I gotta lose the weight first then start bulking up in a 2 step process.

Could one do a 1-month shred - 1 month bulk cycle and still meet their goals?

1 month is probably too short. it takes the body a while to change it's hormone output, I'd say 6 weeks as a minimum usually. But it would be better at 8 to 10 week intervals.

RonSwanson66

So what type of cycle could one use to achieve both without having to do one then the other?

IE- Drop 50lbs of fat by way of calorie reduction and cardio, then build back muscle by way of calorie surplus & heavy lifting?

I would hate to think in order to be muscular with a fairly low % of body fat I gotta lose the weight first then start bulking up in a 2 step process.

To add to what's been said already, I wouldn't recommend a full-on bulking cycle until you get well under 15% BF. You'll see a much better ratio of muscle:fat gains that way.

drczr

Here is a recent study that shows that ELITE ATHLETES can gain lean body mass while losing weight IF they try to lose weight SLOWLY.

The group that only lost 0.7 % of their body weight per week (SR) both gained muscle. The group that lost 1.4 % of their body weight per week maintained (but did not gain) muscle mass.

I'm not sure if we can translate this to mere mortals (non-elite athletes) like myself. But one thing I can learn from this is that SLOWER WEIGHT LOSS IS BETTER. The slower we lose weight, the less likely we are to lose muscle.

---

Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2011 Apr;21(2):97-104.

Effect of two different weight-loss rates on body composition and strength and power-related performance in elite athletes.
Garthe I, Raastad T, Refsnes PE, Koivisto A, Sundgot-Borgen J.

Source: Norwegian School of Sport Sciences, Oslo, Norway.

ABSTRACT
When weight loss (WL) is necessary, athletes are advised to accomplish it gradually, at a rate of 0.5-1 kg/wk. However, it is possible that losing 0.5 kg/wk is better than 1 kg/wk in terms of preserving lean body mass (LBM) and performance. The aim of this study was to compare changes in body composition, strength, and power during a weekly body-weight (BW) loss of 0.7% slow reduction (SR) vs. 1.4% fast reduction (FR). We hypothesized that the faster WL regimen would result in more detrimental effects on both LBM and strength-related performance.

Twenty-four athletes were randomized to SR (n = 13, 24 ± 3 yr, 71.9 ± 12.7 kg) or FR (n = 11, 22 ± 5 yr, 74.8 ± 11.7 kg). They followed energy-restricted diets promoting the predetermined weekly WL. All athletes included 4 resistance-training sessions/wk in their usual training regimen. The mean times spent in intervention for SR and FR were 8.5 ± 2.2 and 5.3 ± 0.9 wk, respectively (p < .001). BW, body composition (DEXA), 1-repetition-maximum (1RM) tests, 40-m sprint, and countermovement jump were measured before and after intervention. Energy intake was reduced by 19% ± 2% and 30% ± 4% in SR and FR, respectively (p = .003).

BW and fat mass decreased in both SR and FR by 5.6% ± 0.8% and 5.5% ± 0.7% (0.7% ± 0.8% vs. 1.0% ± 0.4%/wk) and 31% ± 3% and 21 ± 4%, respectively.

LBM increased in SR by 2.1% ± 0.4% (p < .001), whereas it was unchanged in FR (-0.2% ± 0.7%), with significant differences between groups (p < .01).

In conclusion, data from this study suggest that athletes who want to gain LBM and increase 1RM strength during a WL period combined with strength training should aim for a weekly BW loss of 0.7%.

RonSwanson66

LBM increased in SR by 2.1% ± 0.4% (p < .001), whereas it was unchanged in FR (-0.2% ± 0.7%), with significant differences between groups (p < .01).

This is well below the margin of error for DEXA.