My response to people that say humans HAVE to eat meat...

VegesaurusRex

We aren't carnivores. We're OMNIVORES.

Define OMNIVORE in a way that it cannot mean either a tiger or a mouse.

What? :huh:

Mice can be omnivorous.... tiger's aren't.

I'm not sure what you even mean.

Are you saying tigers can't eat berries? Please be very precise because I would have to bring in a bunch of studies to show you don't know what you are talking about based on a misunderstanding.

Also, why don't you address Dr Roberts defintiion of herbivore. I respect his definition far more than that of a 3/4 Ph.D. who apparently has no idea how to cite articles defending her position.

I will tell you my point up front. If your defintion of "omnivore" is so vague as to include every member of Animalia, then it is totally useless. I gave you several cites and precise definitions. I told you physiologically what the difference beween a carnivore and a herbivore is. You have given me nothing so far except your ex cathedra statements. I am not interested in arguing with the Pope. I want scientic answers, not opinions.

If you are saying tigers are able to eat berries then you are wrong. Tigers cannot eat berries. If you fed cats a vegan or vegetarian diet they will get sick and die a horrible death. Cats cannot produce the amino acid taurine on their own, the only way they can get this amino acid is in meat. Omnivores which is us, pigs, dogs are able to make this amino acid with a balance diet that includes animal by produce. Cats can't live off just animal by product it has to be pure meat because of this amino acid. This is why they are a true carnivore since no meat for a cat equals death.

First, virtually all carnivores eat berries or other plants when meat is not available. While I would not want a Tiger to try to live on blueberries, they can get nutritiion out of them and this type of food can sustain them..

Cats have only a LIMITED ability to synthesize the essential amino acid taurine from sulfur-containing amino acids. Therefore, a cat's diet must provide taurine. It also helps for the diet to be rich in sulfur-containing amino acids. Diets low in protein, and therefore sulfur-amino acids, are more likely to induce taurine deficiency. Therefore, even though cats CAN synthesize taurine, they would likely suffer and or die without meat. That is why they are carnivores. That is also why we are NOT carnivores.

Go make that argument to veterinarians that have to treat cats with detached retinas from owners who try to give their cat a vegetarian diet. BTW, the synthetic taurine causes cancer and no they can't not sustain on berries. Okay, you even state they will suffer and die but then you say they can sustain on berries . We are not carnivores, we are omnivores but that does not mean we are herbivores and can live from a vegan diet. Maybe a vegetarian diet we can but its a lot easier to meet our protein needs with meat which we are able to use but a vegan diet we could not live on properly since it excludes animal by product.

Simply not true, at least the part about us being omnivores. I will go with the opinion of the President of the American Society of Cardiologists, and everything I have read about evolution.

When I said they could sustain on berries I meant they could eat and get nutrition from berries, not that they could go their whole life on berries. Every carnivore I have ever heard of can get nutrition from plants. (I didn't say COMPLETE nutrition) Carnivores must have meat. I am not arguing with you on that. I AM arguing with you on your claim that we are omnivorees. We are herbivores both in terms of physiology and nutrition.

VegesaurusRex

How is my post not live and let live? Please explain. I didn't push meat on anyone. I simply said I like to eat it and WTF should anyone care?

I only care in so far as when (not if) you get colon cancer or heart diesease or some other chronic disease related to meat eating, that you are going to go to the public fisc and I am going to have to pay for your health care. I want you to live and die with your choices as I will live and die with mine. Health care is such a disaster in this country because of meat, and I for one am sick of paying the bill.

I wouldn't want to pay your health care bill from heart disease when you could of been adding some fish in your diet Mmm yummy meat.

Enjoy your heavy metals. Hope you don't get Parkinsons.

Thriceshy

How is my post not live and let live? Please explain. I didn't push meat on anyone. I simply said I like to eat it and WTF should anyone care?

^^^^ This, and my thoughts on why:

It's been my sad experience that folks who are "true believers" in anything don't tend to recognize their own preaching, but accuse those who disagree of preaching. I've got a number of vegan and vegetarian friends on Facebook, and some push like mad--story after story, link after link (most from the dippiest New-Age-y sites) telling the meat-eaters that we're all gonna die. It's not just an occasional thing, it's multiple posts daily that don't just push their point of view, but also condemn or ridicule alternate views. And you know what? I GET it--you find something you think is amazing and wonderful and you want to share it with as many people as you can. I understand that. Problem is, it is preaching, it is obnoxious, and worse, it's intolerant as all get out. Wanna be a vegan? Then BE a vegan! Enjoy that, live that, but for goodness' sake, don't hassle everyone else. I know, I know, it doesn't FEEL like hassling when YOU do it, but it is.

I have never, even once, poked or prodded a vegan or vegetarian friend about their dietary lifestyle. When I have them over for dinner, I make meals that everyone can enjoy. Sometimes that means two separate entrees, sometimes it means making a dish that all will enjoy. And I'm okay with that, just as I have had vegetarian friends who've made meat dishes separate for us. It's about respecting each others' choices and lifestyles and being happy to make someone else happy. I get why some don't eat animal products, and I can respect that, would never push them to make the leap to omnivore. It makes my heart glad that some of my friends pay me the same respect. Pisses me off that some don't.

YassSpartan

This is interesting. I have a degree in anthropology and one of the interesting facts about humans is that for most of our (anotomically human) history we did subsist largely on fruits, nuts, grains, etc. Meat was a 'luxury' and hard to come by (50,000 years ago there were no supermarkets, just you and the wild. What's easier, foraging for some grains and nuts that will quickly fill you up, or risk your life hunting an animal that could very well kill you?)

Additionally, the human digestive tract is long, which suggests that it was not intended for continuous digestion of animal protein (compare our digestive tract to that of a known carnivore, such as a lion, and you will see the difference immediately). I am a vegetarian myself, but largely for ethical reasons. But I will take the health benefits as well! Vegetarian diets have long been recognized to be a healthy alternative to a diet consisting largely of animal protein.

This is not to say that eating meat is contrary to "human nature," or that it is consistent with it - whatever that means (people argue both sides of this, believe it or not). But it does mean that our evolutionary history makes a vegetarian (or mostly vegetarian) diet very compatible with a healthy lifestyle.

The post below regarding our incisors being evidence of us being 'meat eaters' can easily be refuted, since incisors are remnants of our primate origins, not indicative of homo sapiens' eating patterns, per se (discussing our eating patterns 3 - 6 million years ago vs. 100,000 will yield very different conclusions!). In fact, most of our current teeth (and our chewing patterns) point to a style of eating consistent with grinding (lots of low flat teeth) usually associated with the breakdown of grains, nuts, legumes, etc., not with the tearing of flesh.

In the end, we are human and we have a choice in what we eat, so any argument suggesting that one way of eating is 'right' will have its opponents and proponents. I'm a vegetarian because I know that it isn't necessary to kill animals to survive and I believe that if you can minimize suffering in any capacity, you should. That is my philosophy on eating, but I also understand not every one shares that sentiment - and I don't base whether I eat meat or not on whether or not we have incisors or a short digestive tract either. Like all humans, I eat based on what I believe it is appropriate to eat in my social context. Whew!

Thank you!

VegesaurusRex

Honestly, you can eat arsenic if you want. I don't care. I just don't want to be sattled with your medical bills when you develop colon cancer or heart disease. This is why we need to get rid of Obamacare so people like you can eat what you want, and I don't have to pay for it.

How anyone could think that witholding medical care from someone because they can't afford it is the right thing to do is horrific. Everyone deserves to receive medical care, whether they can or can't afford it. You can whine about being "sattled" with someone elses medical bills, I'm thrilled my taxes pay for the NHS, it's one of the best uses of taxes that I can think of.

The amount of medical resources is limited. They should be given first and formost to those who make the best choices. Would you give a scarce liver to an ancoholic? Neither would most hospitals. We simply have to extend that princinciple, since as I say, society just doesn't have the money to indulge everyone.

Katefab26

You are right. I don't HAVE to eat meat. Neither do I HAVE to be a vegetarian in order to live a healthy, productive, active lifestyle.

Can you cite your sources for your information? I'd love to know where you got it.

_VoV

How is my post not live and let live? Please explain. I didn't push meat on anyone. I simply said I like to eat it and WTF should anyone care?

Here's what you said: "Go eat what you want, embrace it, and leave others alone. lol."

This is an opinion and a directive. You are telling people that you are pro-meat and want the discussion to end. A 'live and let live' attitude would not call for people to stop discussing something.

sizzle92

The way you speak here makes me shudder. Seriosuly. I believe Karma will give you Parkinsons way more than eating meat or fish will. Be careful what you put out to the universe while you preach to strangers about what they eat. I would love to show you my lab numbers. They're ridiculous. My husband jokes that I need to eat cholesterol mine is so good.

Indy_Mario

You are right. I don't HAVE to eat meat. Neither do I HAVE to be a vegetarian in order to live a healthy, productive, active lifestyle.

Can you cite your sources for your information? I'd love to know where you got it.

Got it from the Encyclopedia he must've had for breakfast. Seems like he needs more fiber, his conclusions and theories are a bit...watery.

sizzle92

I don't find this to be a discussion. It's an arguement with one person basically telling everyone we are going to die and he is sick of paying our bills. I assure you, nobody here other than me and my employer pays for my healthcare.

Cycl0tr0n

I'm going to jump in here briefly. I apologize if I'm reiterating -- I haven't yet read through the whole thread.

I don't think we *have* to eat meat -- not by any means -- and I would agree that many Americans eat too much meat, especially too much meat from animals raised on problematic feeds (grain-feed beef, for example: bovines are optimized for grazing) and in unsanitary and inhumane conditions. Likewise, most nutritional scientists (as opposed to proprietors of fad diets) would probably agree that it is perfectly possible to be healthy on a meat-free diet.

That said, the human animal is also not designed to be an herbivore (which I mention solely because it's the most-overused and worst argument in favor of vegetarianism out there: isn't compassion argument enough, without having to fall back on pseudoscience?). Regardless of the argument some would make, neither our teeth nor our guts are typical of herbivorous species. Rather, our teeth and digestive tracts are more closely akin to those found in other omnivorous species such as hogs or canids (meanwhile, they are just as disparate from those of obligate carnivores such as cats as they are from those of true herbivores). If you take a look at the teeth and digestive tracts of ruminants (such as cows), non-ruminant herbivores (horses), humans, wolves, and cats, you'll see what I mean. There's a sort of continuum from 'really well adapted for eating plants' to 'not adapted for eating plants at all.'

This doesn't mean that we can't be healthy without meat -- indeed, eggs are an optimal source of protein for humans, and lacto-ovo vegetarians eat them, and most (not all) of our essential nutrients can be easily obtained from plant sources.

Meanwhile, it's not impossible to be a healthy vegan -- I've known vegans who were doing it wrong and vegans who were doing it right; one group tends to be skinny and unhealthy and the other skinny and very healthy. A truly vegan diet requires both careful planning and preparation and at least some degree of supplementation (B12, in particular, is not readily available from plant sources), but can be adequate for the needs of most people.

VegesaurusRex

You are right. I don't HAVE to eat meat. Neither do I HAVE to be a vegetarian in order to live a healthy, productive, active lifestyle.

Can you cite your sources for your information? I'd love to know where you got it.

I don't know if you are talking to me, but if you are here are some for starters:

http://www.healingcancernaturally.com/vegetarians-live-longer.html

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/07/nutrition-advice-from-the-china-study/

http://www.framinghamheartstudy.org/about/history.html

ironanimal

I have come to a conclusion after reading 4 pages of this thread.

1. Eat meat. You won't die to death because of it.
2. If you don't want to eat meat, don't. Us meat-eaters don't care and won't preach.
3. VegesaurusRex should be working as a stand up comedian. Their self-righteous, thou hast the holiest *kitten* attitude, is beyond hilarious.

Indy_Mario

I have come to a conclusion after reading 4 pages of this thread.

1. Eat meat. You won't die to death because of it.
2. If you don't want to eat meat, don't. Us meat-eaters don't care and won't preach.
3. VegesaurusRex should be working as a stand up comedian. Their self-righteous, thou hast the holiest *kitten* attitude, is beyond hilarious.

*kitten* man, you must be working for the man to bring us all down.
Your way of thinking just doesn't make sense! How can you ask people to eat what they want. That's got to be some reverse psychology crap...

Missaeriel

Smartest response on this entire thread!

AmberXenon

By grandfather had stomach cancer about 30 years ago. My grandmother immediately put him on a strict vegetarian diet the moment he recovered. He's had severe issues since then,and just this past week was in the hospital because his hemoglobin levels were half of what they should be.

Doctor recommended he add red meat to his diet.

_VoV

I don't find this to be a discussion. It's an arguement with one person basically telling everyone we are going to die and he is sick of paying our bills. I assure you, nobody here other than me and my employer pays for my healthcare.

Some people are coming in with sound bites. You are right. That isn't discussion. But, I'm reading longer, more interesting posts and enjoying them.

I understand why you see the healthcare cost issue in the microcosmic way you do. It helps to see it from the bigger-picture point of view--how much of our collective economy goes towards healthcare--whether from private or public payers.

brearune

I am a vegetarian that happens to disagree with you. People are made to eat meat, they're omnivores.

Factory farming and CAFOs? THAT'S another story...




Why must vegetarians/ vegans be so preachy?

EXCELLENT. Thank youuu for saying this.

VegesaurusRex

The way you speak here makes me shudder. Seriosuly. I believe Karma will give you Parkinsons way more than eating meat or fish will. Be careful what you put out to the universe while you preach to strangers about what they eat. I would love to show you my lab numbers. They're ridiculous. My husband jokes that I need to eat cholesterol mine is so good.

Well, my cholesterol has varried from 110 to 125 over the past ten years or so.

If you want to talk karma, why not think of what you have done the next time you sit down as a meal and there is the flesh of a dead animal on your plate, an animal that would not have been killed if you and other had not been willing to buy its corpse. Once you have looked at your karma in that situation then you can talk to me about karma.

The reality of scarce medical resources is not based on what I think or do, it is based on the fact that this country has a population that is massively obese, diabetic, and in dire need of changing what we eat. I see no reason in the world why I should have to pay for your colon cancer, if you knowingly eat a diet that will cause you to get colon cancer. If I abused drugs, would you be willing to pay for my complete medical and therapeutic care while I recovered? If yes, then I guess you won mind paying 90% in income taxes.

sizzle92

I agree, there are some interesting points here. I guess I'll just try to ignore the ignorant ones. I have opinions on what/who causes me to pay for their healthcare and why, but I won't be discussing that. lol