Dr. Phil - Open Marriage

katherinemm31

Eeeeeeeeeeeew!

nanodot

I love words and how they evolve. Since we are discussing what the term "marriage" is, I thought this might be helpful.

From Merriam:

a (1) : the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law (2) : the state of being united to a person of the same sex in a relationship like that of a traditional marriage <same-sex marriage>
b : the mutual relation of married persons : wedlock
c : the institution whereby individuals are joined in a marriage

From Wiki

Marriage (or wedlock) is a social union or legal contract between people that creates kinship. The definition of marriage varies according to different cultures, but is usually an institution in which interpersonal relationships, usually intimate and sexual, are acknowledged. Such a union, often formalized via a wedding ceremony, may also be called matrimony. Many cultures limit marriage to two persons of the opposite sex, but some allow forms of polygamous marriage, and some recognize same-sex marriage. In some conservative cultures, marriage is recommended or compulsory before pursuing any sexual activity.

People marry for many reasons, including one or more of the following: legal, social, libidinal, emotional, economic, spiritual, and religious. These might include arranged marriages, family obligations, the legal establishment of a nuclear family unit, the legal protection of children and public declaration of commitment.[1][2] The act of marriage usually creates normative or legal obligations between the individuals involved. Some cultures allow the dissolution of marriage through divorce or annulment.

Marriage can be recognized by a state, an organization, a religious authority, a tribal group, a local community or peers. It is often viewed as a contract. Civil marriage is the legal concept of marriage as a governmental institution irrespective of religious affiliation, in accordance with marriage laws of the jurisdiction.

Where is the damn "like" button???

i second that.

I Third it.

I'm in an open relationship, and we are getting married this summer.

We are open because, in our moral center, we don't own each other, we don't want or need to own each other, and we are non-jealous people. We are also radical sexual-rights activists and explorers. We were like that before we met, and we match wonderfully in this.

We are getting legally married so that we have legal rights to protect each other, economically and in many other legally sanctified ways. We are having a wedding, to celebrate each other, our deep joy and good luck; and to show him off in a tuxedo!

MissTattoo

If it works for them, who are we to judge what other adults do? The only thing I would worry about are STD's. If I were okay with an open marriage, condoms would be a requirement.
I have friends in Europe who get once a year hall passes. So it's like an open marriage, but sex with other people only happens once a year. It works for them. They've been married for 15 years.

FitLink

The couple featured today have an open marriage. Both have $ex with other people. The husband's mistresse's husband approves of this as well.

What do you think, could it work. Is this the way to keep everyone happy in a marriage so to speak?

Oh and they have rules, no $ex in the marital bed, only on a blow up mattress. And condoms are not required, WTF :noway:

I have no issues with what consenting adults do with each other in bed, and I don't make the rules for someone else's marriage. There is entirely too much focus on what other people do. What other people do doesn't affect me.

That said, it would not work FOR ME. I need someone who only wants me.

shellicious777

I guess if you have no ability to connect on a soul level.........this might be possible.........but how very sad........

And some people would say that having vanilla sex with the same person for your whole life is sad, boring and pathetic. I bet you wouldn't feel very good if you heard someone say that about your relationship.

THANK YOU!!!! That is why I wasn't going to put myself out there. I've done it, had a great time and we have so much respect for each other!! Just celebrated 25 yrs of marriage. It was fun and we would do it again if the opportunity comes up again. It's just sex...

starshine420

I tried the open relationship thing once, did not work out and ended ugly. But one of my best friend's is in an open marriage, and they're both very happy with the arrangement. So, I guess it depends on the couple and how they truly feel about it.

triplejay1

LMAO! this whole topic is too funny!

N_BEAST_MODE_24_7

Maybe that's what works for them , but never in my house. I really dont see the point of being married if I can see others and have sex with them...just like being single, with options.

BAMFMeredith

Personally, I don't agree with open marriages...which is why I'd never have one. But if someone else wants to have one and they are happy, then that's fine with me--doesn't really affect my life. And I'd never judge someone for their choices. I can disagree with someone's choices (you know, as long as they're not hurting others) while still respecting that it's their choice. I have PLENTY of friends who I disagree with about all kinds of things, but at the end of the day they're happy and they're not hurting anyone so it's all good.

The only thing that I can really say I am alarmed about here is that they DON'T use condoms. Unless you are in a monogamous relationship, protection is so absolutely essential, just for health and safety reasons. As long as nobody's getting hurt, it's totally their business, but when you are sleeping with multiple partners and not using protection, well, the potential for somebody getting hurt is definitely there.

sammi402

Most important, does anyone want to be judged on their bedroom activities?

Depends on the scale and competition.

And the prizes involved...

Well now! If we are going to be getting prizes then sign me up!

Maria_81

An open marriage means the two involved really aren't committed to each other. I fail to see the point if you're sexing somebody else. It would make sense just to be single

PaleoPath4Lyfe

need to stop reading posts like this one. It always makes me deeply sad that so many people are "ok with" or think it's "fine if it works for them". There seems to be no higher standard for anyone as long as people are "happy". There's more to life than being happy, and in my opinion, it cheapens the human experience to spend all of life only seeking after happiness.

It is funny that YOU feel it cheapens the human experience to seek happiness?

I was taught that being happy and leading a life that you are happy with fulfills and enriches ones life.

The most miserable people I see are the ones that do everything out of obligation and the "high standard" they were brought up to fulfill. These are the same ones I mostly see blowing their head off when life's pressures become too much for them to handle because they have no outlet and nothing for themselves that makes them happy as a person. They become pretty much a robot.

Not the life I want to live.

Again, I am personally not in an open marriage with my husband and I am happy being monogamous. I am not against it and I definitely won't judge someone because their relationship is different than mine.

paigemarie93

An open marriage means the two involved really aren't committed to each other.

we're on the same wavelength. I just can't fathom why anyone would do that

PaleoPath4Lyfe

I would never want an open marriage. I'm truly blessed in my own marriage in that my spouse and I are able to fulfill each other's emotional and physical needs and wants. It takes work, but it's worth it.

Having said that, if they are all in agreement it isn't my place to judge. The same Bible that discusses the wedding vows also clearly states that major Biblical figures such as Moses and Noah had mistresses and/or multiple wives, so even if you're a devout Christian, there's a lot of ambiguity there.

It is no more my business what they do in their bedroom (or bedrooms, as it were), than it is theirs what I do in mine. I don't care and I don't want to know about it.

I don't even have a problem with the porn. My spouse and I have watched a few together. I don't think one spouse go surfing for porn over the other's objections, but, again, if both partners agree, so what?

The one thing I would have to question about this whole arrangement - well, okay, the three things - are, number one, the fact that they don't want their child to know about the arrangement. I agree that a child doesn't need to know about their parents' sex lives. But the fact that they are hiding the relationship itself would seem to indicate some shame. Thing is, the kid is going to find out at some point, and then what? I mean, they just went on national TV, for Pete's sake. After lying to the child through omission for however long, how do they expect to be able to make it right? Number two - an eleven year old should not be watching porn. Period. And most especially with their parents. I've had all the discussions with my kid about sex ed. We communicate openly about sex, whether she should or not, possible repercussions, how the act itself works, etc. Not easy talks, but for the best for her. But there is no way on God's green earth that I would ever, ever watch sex with her. Of course she knows her parents had, and continue to have, sex. But we don't talk about the details. And, finally, third - no condoms? Big, big mistake.

If it is just adults involved and all agree - knock yourself out. I couldn't care less. I have no right and no inclination to judge. But when you have a kid and you're doing something you have to hide from them, you're making bad decisions.

Please stop with all the biblical stuff.

You all that take the bible so serious..............Why? It is nothing but a book of stories that is from a historical time. It is MAN MADE and MAN WRITTEN.

The bible pretty much doesn't mean anything to me and I have been happily married for 14 years now. I am spiritual in other ways, but I am definitely NOT religious.

nanodot

An open marriage means the two involved really aren't committed to each other.

Same wavelength.

Binary thinking. Why can't I be deeply committed to more than one person? That's like saying I can only love one of my kids.

FitLink

I was always taught that if you have to keep your relationship secret you probably shouldn't be in it. Some people may really be happy in open marriages, but I would venture to say that there are more hurt feelings and bruised egos in that scenario than in a monogamous marriage (which I am currently thoroughly enjoying). Marriage/relationships shouldn't be about sex. It has to be about knowing the other person and being special/intimate with them on an entirely different level. There's no way I could have the emotional and spiritual connection that I do with my husband now if either of us were intimate with other people.

I'm not sure how the "secret" comment relates. These people aren't keeping their other sex partners secret, that's why it's an "open" marriage. Does that mean you are okay with it? The rest of your comment isn't clear on that.

sammi402

There are many different types of open-marriages. Some religious groups allow men to have many wives so they can procreate a LOT. Some folks are swingers, some are polyamourous, some have other partners separate from the marriage. The way that works is because they are in a loving, honest, committed relationship. You can't have a successful open relationship without the honesty and commitment and the no-holds-barred discussions of emotions. Well, you can, but I believe they call that cheating.

As for why be married? For the same reason many people get married; LOVE. I love my husband, I am fully committed to my husband and there is nobody I would rather raise my children with and grow old with. The fact that we are allowed to sleep with other people doesn't change that. My marriage is not any less valid than anybody elses and our committment to eachother is not any less than that of any other married couple.

nanodot

There are many different types of open-marriages. Some religious groups allow men to have many wives so they can procreate a LOT. Some folks are swingers, some are polyamourous, some have other partners separate from the marriage. The way that works is because they are in a loving, honest, committed relationship. You can't have a successful open relationship without the honesty and commitment and the no-holds-barred discussions of emotions. Well, you can, but I believe they call that cheating.

As for why be married? For the same reason many people get married; LOVE. I love my husband, I am fully committed to my husband and there is nobody I would rather raise my children with and grow old with. The fact that we are allowed to sleep with other people doesn't change that. My marriage is not any less valid than anybody elses and our committment to eachother is not any less than that of any other married couple.

^^^^^ That, yes.

_binary_jester_

An open marriage means the two involved really aren't committed to each other.

Same wavelength.

Binary thinking.

I am so offended by that remark. LOL

FitLink

OP--I haven't read the replies as I didn't wish to get sidetracked...I know a couple who have been married 40+ yrs...Open marriage..with boths consent...lovers always know about spouse..and if lover is married their spouse must approve too. This couple has multiple children...are they all biologically his? I suspect not. Both agreed that all children she bore would be their children. I've never met a happier couple and they so obviously love each other that I can't condemn them for it.

What about the kids? All heathy, happy and well adjusted. All adults now.

This doesn't work for everyone...doubt I could have did it. I didn't share well..too jealous.. If it's mine I don't share,,If it's not mine I don't want it.

But to each his own...When between consenting adults...it's simply not my business.

They don't have to agree that any children they have while married are "theirs." In virtually every jurisdiction in the US, when children are born to married people parentage is presumed. For legal purposes, they ARE his children, regardless of the biological father. It appears that this may apply to lesbian married people as well (that is the "other mother" may be the "presumed parent"), as this is just going through the courts here in Iowa right now.

Symphony6

Here's adding something new to the convo..

My husband and I have been together for 15 years, married for 9, and always accepted the fact that neither one of us have been very good with monogamy in the past, so we never really expected it from each other. We're human, and we love each other regardless and even sometimes because of it. But then, we have a different view of marriage. So many feel that marriage is the joining of two people into one, but we believe in maintaining one's individuality throughout.

That being said, we were in the lifestyle for awhile... Honestly though, it was pretty difficult finding people who weren't either hiding their lifestyle from their SO or a little cray-cray if you know what I mean. Both are against our "rules". So, we have chosen to put that on hold for awhile. Not to sidetrack this debate, but how does one get all their needs satisfied from their partner when they are bisexual?

What works for some does not work for everyone because everyone is different. As long as you're not hurting anyone, live and let live, man.

hdroddy

I would never want an open marriage. I'm truly blessed in my own marriage in that my spouse and I are able to fulfill each other's emotional and physical needs and wants. It takes work, but it's worth it.

Having said that, if they are all in agreement it isn't my place to judge. The same Bible that discusses the wedding vows also clearly states that major Biblical figures such as Moses and Noah had mistresses and/or multiple wives, so even if you're a devout Christian, there's a lot of ambiguity there.

It is no more my business what they do in their bedroom (or bedrooms, as it were), than it is theirs what I do in mine. I don't care and I don't want to know about it.

I don't even have a problem with the porn. My spouse and I have watched a few together. I don't think one spouse go surfing for porn over the other's objections, but, again, if both partners agree, so what?

The one thing I would have to question about this whole arrangement - well, okay, the three things - are, number one, the fact that they don't want their child to know about the arrangement. I agree that a child doesn't need to know about their parents' sex lives. But the fact that they are hiding the relationship itself would seem to indicate some shame. Thing is, the kid is going to find out at some point, and then what? I mean, they just went on national TV, for Pete's sake. After lying to the child through omission for however long, how do they expect to be able to make it right? Number two - an eleven year old should not be watching porn. Period. And most especially with their parents. I've had all the discussions with my kid about sex ed. We communicate openly about sex, whether she should or not, possible repercussions, how the act itself works, etc. Not easy talks, but for the best for her. But there is no way on God's green earth that I would ever, ever watch sex with her. Of course she knows her parents had, and continue to have, sex. But we don't talk about the details. And, finally, third - no condoms? Big, big mistake.

If it is just adults involved and all agree - knock yourself out. I couldn't care less. I have no right and no inclination to judge. But when you have a kid and you're doing something you have to hide from them, you're making bad decisions.

Please stop with all the biblical stuff.

You all that take the bible so serious..............Why? It is nothing but a book of stories that is from a historical time. It is MAN MADE and MAN WRITTEN.

The bible pretty much doesn't mean anything to me and I have been happily married for 14 years now. I am spiritual in other ways, but I am definitely NOT religious.

I agree with you. Pardon me. I wasn't trying to be Biblical. I'm right there with you on the Bible being written by fallible humans. I'm not religious, either. I was trying to make the point that, even if you're using the Bible as your guide, as a few individuals implied, even it contradicts itself and leaves things unclear.

hdroddy

If you have contact with at least ONE other person, then you have formulated a relationship in one way or another. Even if it's fleeting, momentary, hell - I have a trust/respect relationship with every other driver around me every day. I trust they will not drive into me, and respect them enough that I will not run into them. But **** happens and sometimes you crash. Technically, each time I get behind the wheel, I am Married to the rules of the road and in a relationship with everyone around me.

Marriage is really about the way you both choose to relate to each other: Sexually, emotionally, financially, etc. "Open" really means that the rules that couple are following are outside the 'traditional' definition of marriage. The one that is better for you is the one in which you are the happiest in - that you can make work. Turmoil and crashes will follow either one; and FAILURE is all but guaranteed if you are not able to express yourself and be heard and understood in EITHER type of marriage.

Why does both marriage AND divorce both exist? Cause people are not perfect and while they may respect each other enough to make certain promises, time passes, they change, they take their eyes off the road sort of speak, and crash.

I've been married and divorced 2x. The first time -my bad. The second -her bad. Neither relationship was open, but covenants were not kept. Love in the first. Restraint from alcohol on the second. Even IF we would have had a open marriage, because those particular covenants were not kept, divorce was inevitable.

My ultimate idea of a 'perfect marriage': I want to grow old with a special woman who cherishes me, values me, knows my **** stinks, calls me on it, and stimulates me physically and mentally. On my death bed I want to look back at my 'marriage' and think "she was, is, and will always be the best part of me."

Don't agree with everything entirely, but very well said. Hope you find what you're looking for.

Sharyn913

This thread disgusts me to my very core. Why even get married than? Wives--- you honestly can say you have no issue with your husband staying out all night with another woman? NO. NO NONO!!! Come on... have some self respect for YOURSELF and for your relationship!!!!!

amymeenieminymo

The whole "why be married thing"...yea. That one irks me I am afraid. I am in the US. I had been with my husband for 6 years before we got married. We had 2 children at that point.

Why get married? Well first, we loved each other and care deeply about the other. Secondly marriage is a legal contract. It says that if something happens to him I make choices and if something happens to me he makes choices. It also says if something happens to either of us that the kids go to the other. It makes each of us tied to each other legally.

Marriage also means that we get to share things like health insurance. I had been with him for 6 years but couldn't get his dental insurance because we didn't have a piece of paper saying we were legally bound to each other. There is no "common law" marriage here, it doesn't apply.

I could be wrong, since it was nearly 4 years ago that I got married, but I don't remember anything in my vows about not having relations with other people (in either his or mine). I believe we promised to love, honor, and obey each other. That means VERY different things to different couples.

None of this is saying I am in an open marriage, as I am not, but it is to say that "marriage" is not religiously tied, in anyway, unless that is what the couple believes.

Didn't your vows include the "forsaking all others" part? That's the part that says you cannot be with anyone else. I'm just asking because this is usually included in standard vows unless you alter it or write your own. I've never heard of anyone using "the standard vows" and it not already including this part since, in the eyes of God, forsaking all others and fidelity is a very big part of a marriage vow.

FitLink

Why bother to get married then?

Thank you!! Marriage means you will love honor and sleep with that one person the rest of your life.. If you dont get the commitement than dont get married! Ugh this world we live in these days I dont get it.. The idea of my husband touching and being inside another woman makes my skin crawl no i dont want you porking other woman than coming home to me no thanks..

There's nothing in the vow of marriage about sleeping with only one person. It's only part of the vow of marriage if that's the commitment you make to one another. Marriage is about commitment to each other that runs much greater than sex. Not to mention a legal commitment. So there's plenty of reason to marry someone even if both parties agree that they want to be intimate with other people.

And lets not pretend like polygamy is something new. Back in biblical times, it was common for men to have multiple wives. So it's not exactly new or shocking.

Like I said in my other post, it's certainly something that's not for most people (myself included), but as long as all people involved are consenting, I don't think their lifestyle is any less valid than mine.

From what I understand the "Vow" is simply the part you say "In front of God and these witnesses". Quick Google on Traditional vows finds these:

"Forsaking all others, till death do us part."
or
"faithfully keep to her/him alone, so long as you both shall live?"
or
"and to that I pledge you my faithfulness. "
or
"and I promise to love you, and to be faithful to you as long as we both shall live."

Obviously you don't have to have these specific statements in your vows. But not sleeping with others is exactly what these say. Personally I've never been to a wedding, including one in a judges chamber, where some type of "Forsaking all others" was not in the vow. Yeah, you don't sign a paper with these words on it, but the word "swear" indicates a promise.

Marriage is a legal contract and is licensed by the state. There is no necessity of a god or vowing to never have sex with anyone else. I get that YOU see a "no sex" clause in the vows you list, but I don't believe fidelity necessarily means that. It simply means you won't break the other person's trust. If everyone agrees to something, no trust is broken. Just because you don't want to do something doesn't mean someone else shouldn't. Whatever doesn't harm the person or property of a non-consenting other is NOYB.

paigemarie93

An open marriage means the two involved really aren't committed to each other.

Same wavelength.

Binary thinking. Why can't I be deeply committed to more than one person? That's like saying I can only love one of my kids.

That's completely different.

tilliesmom9

This thread disgusts me to my very core. Why even get married than? Wives--- you honestly can say you have no issue with your husband staying out all night with another woman? NO. NO NONO!!! Come on... have some self respect for YOURSELF and for your relationship!!!!!

If he is staying out all night with another woman I am there with him. Soooo no I don't mind. We respect each other very much. I don't expect you to understand this. I am my own moral compass. No shame here! Just love and fun!

FitLink

I think something's broken inside you if you can't commit completely to one person and have that be enough. Either you're with the wrong person or you have insecurities that you have to fill with promiscuity and outside attention.

Give me a happy, peaceful home with the person I love, someday maybe kids, my rescued doggies, and I will be happy.

I do want a bigger kitchen though.

Odd. I think something's broken inside you if you believe you have the right to decide how other people live. What makes you happy needn't make me happy for me to not be "broken."

nanodot

The whole "why be married thing"...yea. That one irks me I am afraid. I am in the US. I had been with my husband for 6 years before we got married. We had 2 children at that point.

Why get married? Well first, we loved each other and care deeply about the other. Secondly marriage is a legal contract. It says that if something happens to him I make choices and if something happens to me he makes choices. It also says if something happens to either of us that the kids go to the other. It makes each of us tied to each other legally.

Marriage also means that we get to share things like health insurance. I had been with him for 6 years but couldn't get his dental insurance because we didn't have a piece of paper saying we were legally bound to each other. There is no "common law" marriage here, it doesn't apply.

I could be wrong, since it was nearly 4 years ago that I got married, but I don't remember anything in my vows about not having relations with other people (in either his or mine). I believe we promised to love, honor, and obey each other. That means VERY different things to different couples.

None of this is saying I am in an open marriage, as I am not, but it is to say that "marriage" is not religiously tied, in anyway, unless that is what the couple believes.

Didn't your vows include the "forsaking all others" part? That's the part that says you cannot be with anyone else. I'm just asking because this is usually included in standard vows unless you alter it or write your own. I've never heard of anyone using "the standard vows" and it not already including this part since, in the eyes of God, forsaking all others and fidelity is a very big part of a marriage vow.

I understand your point, but our vows will not include a vow of fidelity. I think we are planning to "Love, Honor, and Cherish." We are having a secular ceremony. I am also thinking that vows can be set aside if both parties wholeheartedly agree to; and I don't consider god to be a literal participant in the vows, because I'm not religious. This stuff is between people and their own conscience.