You Can Gain Muscle On A Calorie Deficit!!
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You're trying to say he was less than 30% BF? 30% BF at 278 means 194.6 pounds lbm. He's 204 now. Pick your poison but trying to argue he wasn't obese initially and that he gained mass on the cut would basically be saying he's at a negative BF% now.0
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You're trying to say he was less than 30% BF? 30% BF at 278 means 194.6 pounds lbm. He's 204 now. Pick your poison but trying to argue he wasn't obese initially and that he gained mass on the cut would basically be saying he's at a negative BF% now.
I guess I'm trying to get you to define "obese". I'm also saying that BMI is a poor indicator of health/body mass.
Also with your theory, as soon as he got below the "obese" bf %, he'd no longer be gaining muscle mass. You think that happened?0 -
I guess I'm trying to get you to define "obese". I'm also saying that BMI is a poor indicator of health/body mass.
Also with your theory, as soon as he got below the "obese" bf %, he'd no longer be gaining muscle mass. You think that happened?
Ugh, I used BMI because it was quick and, in my opinion, very clearly shows that he had substantial body fat to lose. I use obese not because I think under 30% it magically stops, but because I think it tapers off to nothing very quickly as your BF% starts to decrease. Exactly when that happens would vary from individual to individual. The point is that even still, I don't think muscle mass increases are that substantial on a deficit.0 -
I guess I'm trying to get you to define "obese". I'm also saying that BMI is a poor indicator of health/body mass.
Also with your theory, as soon as he got below the "obese" bf %, he'd no longer be gaining muscle mass. You think that happened?
Ugh, I used BMI because it was quick and, in my opinion, very clearly shows that he had substantial body fat to lose. I use obese not because I think under 30% it magically stops, but because I think it tapers off to nothing very quickly as your BF% starts to decrease. Exactly when that happens would vary from individual to individual. The point is that even still, I don't think muscle mass increases are that substantial on a deficit.
At what BF does it start and stop? If it differs from person to person, why do you think muscle gains can't happen to THIS person? As a 150lb bench improvement would seem to indicate.0 -
At what BF does it start and stop? If it differs from person to person, why do you think muscle gains can't happen to THIS person? As a 150lb bench improvement would seem to indicate.I have stated multiple times that I do think he gained some muscle mass, I just stipulated that I thought it was a very small amount.0
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How small? I don't see 150lb bench improvement and small necessarily belonging together.0
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How small? I don't see 150lb bench improvement and small necessarily belonging together.
How small? I don't know. I've stated already that specific numbers would be impossible to determine given the information available. If you want me to wave my hands at it and guess at a number, fine. I think he gained 2.267634532123412142 lbs of muscle mass in the year he was cutting.
As for the 150 lb bench improvement, I have already stated that we would just have to disagree on that particular point. I think that, with a small muscle mass increase and a lot of work on form and neural conditioning, a 150lb improvement is possible. I also think it's a magnitude increase he'll never see again.0 -
I will be back later when I have more time but just wanted say that according to BMI. at my Dr. visit in Jan. I was considered obese at 217-218 lbs and I was 213 lbs in my profile pic.Under what conditions does he fall under? Obese? I can't see he was obese. Long layoff? That might account for his bench. I'm not sure if he's higher than before. I took a long layoff also but didn't lose 150lbs of my bench, nor did I gain 150lbs in the bench. Newbie gains? I don't think there is newbie gains if he's lifted before.
Seeing as how he started at 278, I think that qualifies as obese. Guessing his height at 6 feet, that's a BMI of 37.7. He'd have to be 6 foot 9 to have a bmi in the overweight range.
2nd., There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with me on this subject and take no offense to it. Especially on a topic like this.0 -
How small? I don't see 150lb bench improvement and small necessarily belonging together.
How small? I don't know. I've stated already that specific numbers would be impossible to determine given the information available. If you want me to wave my hands at it and guess at a number, fine. I think he gained 2.267634532123412142 lbs of muscle mass in the year he was cutting.
As for the 150 lb bench improvement, I have already stated that we would just have to disagree on that particular point. I think that, with a small muscle mass increase and a lot of work on form and neural conditioning, a 150lb improvement is possible. I also think it's a magnitude increase he'll never see again.
He claimed he gaimed more than that. But I don't think he claimed he gained "masive" amounts like everyone is trying to descredit him for.
You think it's more likely that he trained so specifically and correctly that his 150lb gain is not from a mucle mass increase? Did you see anything in the thread that he trained like you were describing? Remember, it's not theory, he actually gained 150lbs on his bench press.0 -
A deep, scientific explanation of gaining muscle on a cut:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0bOn6BwlUsWell you could also assume you did until you prove you didn't. But I'd think you rather assume you didn't and claim no one can.
I'd say he'd have a much harder time gaining muscle now vs before. But I don't think he was particularly obese and I also think a 150lb bench improvement on the basis of newbie gains and technique is stretching it a bit.
150lb bench improvement can be on the basis of neuromuscular efficiency. Strength can increase independently of muscle gain but muscle gain cannot happen independently of strength increase (as progressive overload is essential to muscle gain).
Why do you think many lifters can remain in the same weight class or eat at maintenance for their entire careers yet get considerably stronger? Neuromuscular efficiency. This accounts for most people's strength, not their muscles, even though larger muscles aid in increase strength since a larger muscle can contract harder and produce more force (as per the repetition effort method).0 -
A deep, scientific explanation of gaining muscle on a cut:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0bOn6BwlUsWell you could also assume you did until you prove you didn't. But I'd think you rather assume you didn't and claim no one can.
I'd say he'd have a much harder time gaining muscle now vs before. But I don't think he was particularly obese and I also think a 150lb bench improvement on the basis of newbie gains and technique is stretching it a bit.
150lb bench improvement can be on the basis of neuromuscular efficiency. Strength can increase independently of muscle gain but muscle gain cannot happen independently of strength increase (as progressive overload is essential to muscle gain).
Why do you think many lifters can remain in the same weight class or eat at maintenance for their entire careers yet get considerably stronger? Neuromuscular efficiency. This accounts for most people's strength, not their muscles, even though larger muscles aid in increase strength since a larger muscle can contract harder and produce more force (as per the repetition effort method).
I couldn't maintain my same weight over the few years I powerlifted. Have you gained 150lbs in your bench while maintaining yoru same weight?
Also people could be fat at XX weight and continue to gain lean muscle mass while cutting their bodyfat. That would allow them to stay at their class0 -
He claimed he gaimed more than that. But I don't think he claimed he gained "masive" amounts like everyone is trying to descredit him for.
You think it's more likely that he trained so specifically and correctly that his 150lb gain is not from a mucle mass increase? Did you see anything in the thread that he trained like you were describing? Remember, it's not theory, he actually gained 150lbs on his bench press.
Did I misspell massive somewhere? How embarrassing.
As for numbers, 10 lbs of muscle to increase arm diameter by an inch was explicity mentioned in this thread. Since that was just in his arms, I did take that to mean a 'massive' increase.
And yes, I do think that you can increase your bench by 150 lbs with only a minor increase in muscle mass after a year of training.0 -
He claimed he gaimed more than that. But I don't think he claimed he gained "masive" amounts like everyone is trying to descredit him for.
You think it's more likely that he trained so specifically and correctly that his 150lb gain is not from a mucle mass increase? Did you see anything in the thread that he trained like you were describing? Remember, it's not theory, he actually gained 150lbs on his bench press.
Did I misspell massive somewhere? How embarrassing.
As for numbers, 10 lbs of muscle to increase arm diameter by an inch was explicity mentioned in this thread. Since that was just in his arms, I did take that to mean a 'massive' increase.
And yes, I do think that you can increase your bench by 150 lbs with only a minor increase in muscle mass after a year of training.
Yes you did.
Have you accomplished this? I powerlifted for a few years and I could not do this. As far as I know, he wasn't under any specific training program technical enough to accomplish this within the bounds of your description. Nor was I aware that that was his specific goal to do so. Which would seem to be required to do such specific work.0 -
I couldn't maintain my same weight over the few years I powerlifted. Have you gained 150lbs in your bench while maintaining yoru same weight?
Also people could be fat at XX weight and continue to gain lean muscle mass while cutting their bodyfat. That would allow them to stay at their class
I have not but I know of people who have and there are Olympic lifters who never leave their weight class. Obviously they cut weight because they have gained some muscle mass but it's completely plausible to gain 150lbs on your bench while gaining some muscle mass to very little to none. It really depends on the individual.
Also, he says he gained 150lbs on his bench. We aren't even sure if he's using full range of motion or anything. If he gained 150lbs via ****ty technique then he may have gained very little muscle mass.
All we're going to be doing, though, is back and forth since we aren't sure of anything. In the end, chances are, he did probably gain muscle. How much or how little is up in the air but there are plenty of people who get considerably stronger yet gain very little muscle mass, especially if their fat stores are small.0 -
I couldn't maintain my same weight over the few years I powerlifted. Have you gained 150lbs in your bench while maintaining yoru same weight?
Also people could be fat at XX weight and continue to gain lean muscle mass while cutting their bodyfat. That would allow them to stay at their class
I have not but I know of people who have and there are Olympic lifters who never leave their weight class. Obviously they cut weight because they have gained some muscle mass but it's completely plausible to gain 150lbs on your bench while gaining some muscle mass to very little to none. It really depends on the individual.
Also, he says he gained 150lbs on his bench. We aren't even sure if he's using full range of motion or anything. If he gained 150lbs via ****ty technique then he may have gained very little muscle mass.
All we're going to be doing, though, is back and forth since we aren't sure of anything. In the end, chances are, he did probably gain muscle. How much or how little is up in the air but there are plenty of people who get considerably stronger yet gain very little muscle mass, especially if their fat stores are small.
Just because they don't leave their weight class, doesn't mean they aren't gaining muscle. Like you said, they gained muscle mass. I just assumed he's using the same technique as he lifted 150lbs less. So I assume ti's good or bad thoughout. .
No one said you can't lift more via technique. I just said a 150lb increase is too much to be accounted for just via technique. I'd also have to say, it would take more than a "little bit" of muscle mass gain to achieve this. Obviously a combo of both as he's not "massively" bigger than before.0 -
Bump for guilty, empty entertaiment later.0
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I just said a 150lb increase is too much to be accounted for just via technique. I'd also have to say, it would take more than a "little bit" of muscle mass gain to achieve this. Obviously a combo of both as he's not "massively" bigger than before.
This is really a poor way to state your point.
Firstly, 150 lb increases can be accomplished with improvements in technique. Furthermore, we have no idea HOW he measured those lifting gains. Did he measure them by the first day of lifting with very poor technique compared to 6 months later once technique has been mastered? Did he measure before he knew how to accurately guage his 1 rep max?
Secondly, strength gain improvements do not mean muscle tissue gains. Again, I lost 6 lbs of muscle and my leg press has gone from 90 lb max (full range of motion) to 225 lb max (full range of motion). My max curl went from 15 lbs to 30 lbs (1 rep max). My dumbell bench max went from 15 lb (each arm) to 35 lb (each arm) both 1 rep maxes. All of this while LOSING muscle tissue.0 -
I couldn't maintain my same weight over the few years I powerlifted. Have you gained 150lbs in your bench while maintaining yoru same weight?
Also people could be fat at XX weight and continue to gain lean muscle mass while cutting their bodyfat. That would allow them to stay at their class
You're missing the point. Can pike bench 300 (sorry don't remember the exact number) with his current physique? Yes, of course he can. Obviously, he's doing it.
Now I contend that the vast majority of muscle mass Pike has now was already there when he was at his heaviest, and he only gained a small amount of muscle while cutting. Said pre-existing muscle was 'weak' and unused to lifting, so at that point his starting weight of 135 was challenging to him. After a year of heavy training, and a very small amount of muscle gain on a cut, he's where he's at now. The argument is not if it's possible to lift X lbs with Y lbs of muscle mass, that's not under debate here. The argument is over when the muscle mass he has now was put on. It was clearly conditioned during his cut, but I think a lot of it was already there.
Also if you couldn't maintain your total weight while power lifting that means you were eating too much. It has nothing to do with the fact that you were lifting.0 -
I just said a 150lb increase is too much to be accounted for just via technique. I'd also have to say, it would take more than a "little bit" of muscle mass gain to achieve this. Obviously a combo of both as he's not "massively" bigger than before.
This is really a poor way to state your point.
Firstly, 150 lb increases can be accomplished with improvements in technique. Furthermore, we have no idea HOW he measured those lifting gains.
Secondly, strength gain improvements do not mean muscle tissue gains. Again, I lost 6 lbs of muscle and my leg press has gone from 90 lb max (full range of motion) to 225 lb max (full range of motion). My max curl went from 15 lbs to 20 lbs. My dumbell bench max went from 15 lb (each arm) to 25 lb (each arm). All of this while LOSING muscle tissue.
Really? Have you increased your bench 150lbs via technique? I haven't. You think he could lift 150lbs more and lose muscle tissue? From the pictures, do you think he lost muscle tissue? I don't think he did from the pictures0 -
I just said a 150lb increase is too much to be accounted for just via technique. I'd also have to say, it would take more than a "little bit" of muscle mass gain to achieve this. Obviously a combo of both as he's not "massively" bigger than before.
This is really a poor way to state your point.
Firstly, 150 lb increases can be accomplished with improvements in technique. Furthermore, we have no idea HOW he measured those lifting gains.
Secondly, strength gain improvements do not mean muscle tissue gains. Again, I lost 6 lbs of muscle and my leg press has gone from 90 lb max (full range of motion) to 225 lb max (full range of motion). My max curl went from 15 lbs to 20 lbs. My dumbell bench max went from 15 lb (each arm) to 25 lb (each arm). All of this while LOSING muscle tissue.
Really? Have you increased your bench 150lbs via technique? I haven't. You think he could lift 150lbs more and lose muscle tissue? From the pictures, do you think he lost muscle tissue? I don't think he did from the pictures
Depends on how bad the technique was to begin with, but it's not something I would say is unreasonable. I've seen guys add 150 lbs to their max squats by improving their technique alone. It's not unheard of.
Secondly, without having a body scan done before and after, he has NO idea if he actually gained mass period. That was a point brought up multiple times in the past that is still being ignored by you, the OP, and the others who agree with him.0
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