Let's talk about...the Paleo Diet

Acg67

Let's have a civil, evidence based discussion on the validity Paleo Diet. I have no doubt many people have lost weight, feel better etc while following the Paleo diet, but instead of anecdotal evidence let's try and delve into the scientific backing of the diet. When this discussion is all said and done will we find that the claims of supporters of the Paleo diet to be severely lacking scientific backing or will there be a good deal of evidence in its favor?

To preface this, I do think the main idea of eating mostly whole, nutrient dense foods is a good thing to follow, however I am not convinced on the evils of grains, legumes and dairy. Nor am I convinced sugar or processed foods are singularly evil in moderation.

1. How do you define the Paleo diet?

In the strict sense I believe it's eating whole, unprocessed foods while eliminating gains, legumes and dairy. I've also heard it more simply defined as if didn't exist in Paleo times don't' eat it, however it does appear that grains were around in the Upper Paleolithic period;

The broad spectrum revisited: Evidence from plant remains. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2004 June 29; 101(26): 9551–9555.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC470712/?tool=pubmed

Now, however, a collection of >90,000 plant remains, recently recovered from the Stone Age site Ohalo II (23,000 B.P.), Israel, offers insights into the plant foods of the late Upper Paleolithic. The staple foods of this assemblage were wild grasses, pushing back the dietary shift to grains some 10,000 years earlier than previously recognized. Besides the cereals (wild wheat and barley), small-grained grasses made up a large component of the assemblage, indicating that the BSR in the Levant was even broader than originally conceived, encompassing what would have been low-ranked plant foods. Over the next 15,000 years small-grained grasses were gradually replaced by the cereals and ultimately disappeared from the Levantine diet.

Also if you really wanted to be strict, it would eliminate things like butter (processed and dairy), oils (processed), jerky (processed) etc.

2. What was the macronutrient composition of the Paleo diet?

Remember everything is basically an estimate, and that it varied across geographical location. So to say it was low carb or high fat or this or that would just be a guess and would be dependent on what region you were talking about. For instance this study has the Paleo diet consisting of 37/41/22 P/C/F and 3,000 kcal a day

Eaton et al. Paleolithic nutrition revisited: A twelve-year retrospective on its nature and implications. European Journal of Clinical Nutrition (1997) 51, 207±216

http://www.direct-ms.org/pdf/EvolutionPaleolithic/Eaton Paleo Nutri Review EJCN.pdf

And if you're going to link to Cordain's estimations, do you think him using modern day hunter-gatherer societies is a good proxy for what Paleo man ate?

And here is an interesting rebuttal to the Cordain study;

http://www.ajcn.org/content/72/6/1590.full

3. What evidence is there that grains, legumes and dairy are bad for you in moderation?

Remember there is a difference between excess and moderation. And I am well aware of the effect of anti nutrients in whole grains and legumes on nutrient absorption, but how bad is it to inhibit mineral absorption and will the level that it inhibits mineral absorption lead to any health problems? Let's try and stay away from epidemiological studies please, since we know correlation =/= causation. If you also want to cite one and talk about the potential confounders, then by all means. (so Grinch that means no posting your Norwegian carbs are evil study, unless you want to talk about it's limitations as well)

Also to this point, what evidence was there that the perceived health of Paleo man was from a lack of grains, legumes and dairy vs let's say a diet very high in phytonutrients or all the CV exercise they got?

And does it make a difference that most Paleo dieters are driving to the market to pick up their grass fed beef and organic fruits and veggies vs actually hunting and gathering, are they really getting at what gave Paleo man their perceived health benefits ie possibly all the walking and running around hunting and gathering?

4. What health differences would we see in humans eating 2 identical diets (calories and macronutrients) but one diet contained non Paleo foods and one that only contained Paleo foods?

Honestly I'm not sure of any studies that have been done to compare identical diets just differing Paleo vs non Paleo foods, but if you have one, feel free to share

5. What fat loss differences would we see in humans eating 2 identical diets (calories and macronutrients) but one diet contained non Paleo foods and one that only contained Paleo foods?

I don't think there are any studies to address this, but looking at research between diets only altering high/low GI carbs and fat/carbs while holding cals and protein constant I don't think there would be any difference in fat loss save for people who have things like gluten or lactose intolerances


6. What athletic performance differences would we see in humans eating 2 identical diets (calories and macronutrients) but one diet contained non Paleo foods and one that only contained Paleo foods?

Would eating a non Paleo diet make my Fran time worse? Would it decrease my kipping effectiveness? Would it improve my Oly lift form?

I have no idea to those answers, but curious if someone does.


Remember this isn't to unnecessarily bash or praise the Paleo diet but to have an objective discussion about it

ilookthetype

I"m going to hold you solely responsible if gluten free become less common in stores because Paleo dies out.

Contrarian

Let's talk like cavemen!

Oooga booga ugh!

CoryIda

You know, wasn't the lifespan of a caveman something ridiculously low like 30 years old?

I'm not sure I want to follow that diet...

UponThisRock

Studies mean nothing. Paleo thrives on the gospel of personal anecdote.

CoryIda

I lived in a cave (yes, an actual hole in the side of a mountain) when I was little. I think this technically classifies me as a caveman.

With that being said, you should eat like me.

cgrout78

i couldn't give up dairy. In theory I like the idea of it, but it would be too hard for me to follow and it's not a lifestyle change I could make.

I do believe that the less processed foods one consumes that they would be healthier and I know that I personally need to do a better job of that, but I also don't subscribe to the theory of eliminating total food groups from my diet either.

Sidesteal

One hour and nothing? Bump.

Elizabeth_C34

Studies mean nothing. Paleo thrives on the gospel of personal anecdote.

Bingo.

MercenaryNoetic26

I eat gluten. Yum. I also started buying pints of Ben & Jerry's because of you!

Acg67

One hour and nothing? Bump.

ihateroses

Non-scientific personal opinion of someone who has never tried the diet:

......If you aren't hunting or gathering it...you're doing it wrong.

sweet_lotus

Remember this isn't to unnecessarily bash or praise the Paleo diet but to have an objective discussion about it

But, why pick the Paleolithic era? If the reason is to lose weight and avoid the diseases of civilization, why not emulate a Roman peasant? They sure weren't running around with diabetes, AND they got to eat a lot of bread.

How about a serf in the Middle Ages? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7148534.stm

Perhaps a modern, naan eating Afghan? http://m.npr.org/news/Health/132745785

People say, "well, we didn't evolve to eat [wheat/dairy/whatever]." It doesn't seem like an adequate argument. Paleolithic era people hadn't evolved at that point to read, either, and yet no one is giving that up.

A lot of the antinutrients in grains that people are so alarmed about are actually antioxidants that have beneficial effects, including possible cancer prevention. One example is phytic acid. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/1097-0142(19850815)56:4<717::AID-CNCR2820560402>3.0.CO;2-4/abstract

I'm not convinced at all that avoiding legumes and grains is unhealthful at all.

Acg67

Remember this isn't to unnecessarily bash or praise the Paleo diet but to have an objective discussion about it

A lot of the antinutrients in grains that people are so alarmed about are actually antioxidants that have beneficial effects, including possible cancer prevention. One example is phytic acid. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/1097-0142(19850815)56:4<717::AID-CNCR2820560402>3.0.CO;2-4/abstract

I'm not convinced at all that avoiding legumes and grains is unhealthful at all.

That is an interesting study, thanks for posting it. I'll have to do some more research on it

katiew00t

You've brought up some interesting points. I'm also interested in your topics 4, 5, and 6.

I have a friend that is on the Paleo diet (and also goes to Cross Fit), and he claims that it is the best thing ever. Good for him, but I like my grains, dairy (in moderation-i'm slightly lactose intolerant) and legumes.

freerange

yawn

LabRat529

bump- I'm interested in discussion on this topic, but at the moment, I have nothing to contribute, since Acg67 has pretty much articulated my thoughts on the diet.

AntWrig

Been saying this for a long time.

theoriginaljayne

Thank you for this thread; it was necessary.

Bumping so I can read through all of the studies later (I'm doing homework at the moment – or I should be, at least).

RonSwanson66

"I want to see one person try to eat 375(1500 calories) of carbs, also including 100g of fiber, plus 225g of protein"

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_incredulity

Acg67

Thank you for this thread; it was necessary.

Bumping so I can read through all of the studies later (I'm doing homework at the moment – or I should be, at least).

also read the BS in the study.

Then you think the Paleo diet is BS, that study was part of the basis of Cordain's book

theoriginaljayne

Thank you for this thread; it was necessary.

Bumping so I can read through all of the studies later (I'm doing homework at the moment – or I should be, at least).

also read the BS in the study.

Which study, specifically? Or all of them? I believe there are a couple that have been posted here...

(You know what? Homework can wait.)

ETA: For the record, I do not follow the Paleo diet, nor am I convinced of its claims at this point.

Acg67

Thank you for this thread; it was necessary.

Bumping so I can read through all of the studies later (I'm doing homework at the moment – or I should be, at least).

also read the BS in the study.

Then you think the Paleo diet is BS, that study was part of the basis of Cordain's book

I don't care about the diet, or the studies, or low carb, high carb, or any of that crap... i am here for the bashing... what's the bashing of the diet for??? I can bash too...

Strong reading comprehension, now go back and read the post

RonSwanson66

I think this is the one I have been quoting. The macro nutrient ratios described, are unrealistic. http://www.direct-ms.org/pdf/EvolutionPaleolithic/Eaton Paleo Nutri Review EJCN.pdf

FTA:

Rural Chinese consume up to 77 g of fiber per day (Campbell & Chen, 1994) and estimates from 60±120 g/d have been made for rural Africans (Burkitt, 1983).

Just because it doesn't jibe with your (extremely limited) experience, doesn't make it "unrealistic".

theoriginaljayne

"Fruits, roots, legumes, nuts, and other non-cereals provided 65-70% of the average forager subsistence base."
(From http://www.direct-ms.org/pdf/EvolutionPaleolithic/Eaton Paleo Nutri Review EJCN.pdf)

If I'm not mistaken, followers of the Paleo diet consider legumes to be forbidden, yet this study suggests that legumes were, in fact, regularly consumed by Paleolithic humans.

I'm now curious to know what Paleo eaters' rationale is for avoiding legumes.

HeaderAutumn

If you don't do the Paleo Diet then why do you care? Why can't we just let people eat how they want to eat? Most true followers of the Paleo diet do it as a way of life. Not just to lose weight or lose fat. I personally do not believe that all-you-can-eat bacon is good for you, but do not critisize people that choose to follow Atkins.

RonSwanson66

If you don't do the Paleo Diet then why do you care? Why can't we just let people eat how they want to eat?

Because many paleo initiates like to make unsubstantiated claims about the health benefits of the diet, and tend to demonize perfectly healthy foods.

waffleflavoredtea

I think the 'appeal' of the paleo diet is because it's exciting and a "let's play pretend!" way of making a healthy lifestyle change by choosing better foods and moving more often. I know a couple of friends and coworkers who are/have been paleo, and that's just what I gathered from their reasons of choosing the diet. Most people following a paleo diet seem to know like ONE scientific face relating to Paleo diet, and the rest is all about emotions, feelings, and losing weight (a byproduct of eater better and less, and exercise). I'm no scientist and I don't have much on the facts side of this. I'm curious to see if anyone who actually follows a Paleo diet has any studies or evidence SPECIFICALLY referring to the Paleo diet. People brag about it a lot but they don't seem to have a lot to back it up. Sorry if I offended anyone following this diet, I realize I am generalizing and it might not apply to everyone >.<

HeaderAutumn

So just turning the tables?

But really, to have a true scientific discussion one must be open to any outcome and review materials from both sides of the arguement.

RonSwanson66

But really, to have a true scientific discussion one must be open to any outcome and review materials from both sides of the arguement.

Pretty much the point of the thread, ne?

ElPumaMex

Non-scientific personal opinion of someone who has never tried the diet:

......If you aren't hunting or gathering it...you're doing it wrong.

LOL :bigsmile:

What about an extension of this?

What about the Paleo women vs men diet?
Women were not generally hunters... so did they eat different than the Paleo men? :glasses:

Seriously now:
I think the discussion on Paleo starts off the wrong track, making the assumption it is actually good to eat like our ancestors during a specific period did.

Humans are the product of millions of years of evolution, but the basic digestive system has been in place long before the Paleo era,
That means to me the digestive system was optimized for other food than the Paleo men were eating.

So did the Paelo got it wrong, when eating meat for example? :smokin: