Let's talk about...the Paleo Diet

HeaderAutumn

It was a joke.

theoriginaljayne

It was a joke.

My inner scientist is relieved!

ElPumaMex

You know, wasn't the lifespan of a caveman something ridiculously low like 30 years old?

I'm not sure I want to follow that diet...

I know this is a mistake, I should have learned my lesson earlier today on the other Paleo thread...

Yes, the lifespan was 30ys HOWEVER, scientists have found very little evidence of heart disease, diabetes, and other illnesses associated with being unhealthy. The general consensus among scientists is that they simply died early due to a lack of common over the counter medications to prevent infections or provide proper hygiene. Things like that.

Right, but you forgot to copy the rest of the Wikipedia quote: "and because the average lifespan was shorter than the age of common-onset of these conditions."
In other words, they died well before any possible negative effects of their diet could develop ! :bigsmile:

Here is the complete paragraph:
(from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic#Diet_and_nutrition )

" It is also unlikely that Paleolithic hunter-gatherers were affected by modern diseases of affluence and extended life such as Type 2 diabetes, coronary heart disease and cerebrovascular disease, because they ate mostly lean meats and plants and frequently engaged in intense physical activity [99][100], and because the average lifespan was shorter than the age of common-onset of these conditions."

tigersword

You know, wasn't the lifespan of a caveman something ridiculously low like 30 years old?

I'm not sure I want to follow that diet...

I know this is a mistake, I should have learned my lesson earlier today on the other Paleo thread...

Yes, the lifespan was 30ys HOWEVER, scientists have found very little evidence of heart disease, diabetes, and other illnesses associated with being unhealthy. The general consensus among scientists is that they simply died early due to a lack of common over the counter medications to prevent infections or provide proper hygiene. Things like that.

A lot of them also starved to death, as food was not exactly plentiful or easy to procure, and paleo man did not always have sufficient fat reserves to survive. A big part of why we evolved the way we have, and our fat storage system and metabolism adjustments based on food consumption.

Trail_Addict

You know, wasn't the lifespan of a caveman something ridiculously low like 30 years old?

I'm not sure I want to follow that diet...

I know this is a mistake, I should have learned my lesson earlier today on the other Paleo thread...

Yes, the lifespan was 30ys HOWEVER, scientists have found very little evidence of heart disease, diabetes, and other illnesses associated with being unhealthy. The general consensus among scientists is that they simply died early due to a lack of common over the counter medications to prevent infections or provide proper hygiene. Things like that.

A lot of them also starved to death, as food was not exactly plentiful or easy to procure, and paleo man did not always have sufficient fat reserves to survive. A big part of why we evolved the way we have, and our fat storage system and metabolism adjustments based on food consumption.

The "average lifespan" also takes into account a high infant mortality rate. That's why we have hospitals now for birthin babies.

Plus, infection through mechanical injuries would surely be a grave concern when living off the land.

Elizabeth_C34

You know, wasn't the lifespan of a caveman something ridiculously low like 30 years old?

I'm not sure I want to follow that diet...

I know this is a mistake, I should have learned my lesson earlier today on the other Paleo thread...

Yes, the lifespan was 30ys HOWEVER, scientists have found very little evidence of heart disease, diabetes, and other illnesses associated with being unhealthy. The general consensus among scientists is that they simply died early due to a lack of common over the counter medications to prevent infections or provide proper hygiene. Things like that.

The other alternative is that they didn't have time to develop heart disease, diabetes, or other diet-related diseases. (Yes, I know not all diabetes is caused by diet, but a significant number of cases are diet and obesity related). The human body is pretty damn resilient. It often takes many years for poor eating habits and obesity to kill or cause chronic disease.

maremare312

It just seems like low carb + no dairy wrapped up in shiny new paper to me. I've quit following several formerly useful healthy living/food blogs because they got on the Paleo bandwagon. I know people (Urban Legend!) that say their stomach problems have cleared up because they eat this way, but as with most elimination diets I strongly question the ability to sustain this way of eating in the long term.

tl;dr~My main issue with it is eliminating food groups + annoying semantics

ElPumaMex

I think the one aspect everyone agrees here, is that Paleo men died in their 30's, and that they did not die that soon because of their diet.

So... what can learn from their diet, that can be applied to modern humans that live well beyond 30 years?

Not much at all !

So instead of looking at the Paleo or any other era, in my opinion we should look at the human digestive system as a machine, and determine what type of Food the human digestive system is designed to consume.

Not an easy task, of course :huh:

Trail_Addict

It just seems like low carb ....

Paleo gets their carbs through fruits and veggies, as with many other clean diets. You are correct in that it does exclude many other food groups.

ElPumaMex

:bigsmile:

I think the one aspect everyone agrees here, is that Paleo men died in their 30's, and that they did not die that soon because of their diet.

So... what can learn from their diet, that can be applied to modern humans that live well beyond 30 years?

Not much at all !

So instead of looking at the Paleo or any other era, in my opinion we should look at the human digestive system as a machine, and determine what type of Food the human digestive system is designed to consume.

Not an easy task, of course :huh:

Is there really an ultimate diet? I don't think so. There are too many variables. From genetics, thyroid issues, digestive issues, illness, blood issues... way too many factors to classify one diet as being superb.

I think the real key is exercise, increased activity level.

I think that yes, there is out there to be found an "ultimate diet" for humans.
Reason: if you look at the diet of different species of animals, they all have very specific, ideal diets that are optimal.
And they don't deviate from that diet. It is automatic for them.

We humans have distorted that diet, and now we don't know what that "original" one was !

Will we ever find that "ultimate diet"? Likely
Will humans follow that diet once found? Very unlikely :bigsmile:

Elizabeth_C34

I think that yes, there is out there to be found an "ultimate diet" for humans.
Reason: if you look at the diet of different species of animals, they all have very specific, ideal diets that are optimal.
And they don't deviate from that diet. It is automatic for them.

We humans have distorted that diet, and now we don't know what that "original" one was !

Will we ever find that "ultimate diet"? Likely
Will humans follow that diet once found? Very unlikely :bigsmile:

This isn't really true for top predator species. Often, mid-chain carnivores and herbivores are very specific about which prey items they choose (only in areas where prey (carnivores) or food (herbivores) of choice is widely available), but top predators will often turn to scavaging, eating bones, hide, and periodically herbivory to keep themselves going. This also varies significantly if the species is distributed widely globally or is migratory.

suziecue66

Most folks turn to the paleo or primal diet if they have issues like IBS or other gut issues. Removing grains and legumes seems to help.
Some remove dairy if they are not seeing much weight loss success.
A lot of paleo or primals also stay low carb. Others don't and include more starchy carbs like sweet potatoes.
Any diet will help you lose weight, the trick is choosing the one you can maintain for life.

ElPumaMex

I think that yes, there is out there to be found an "ultimate diet" for humans.
Reason: if you look at the diet of different species of animals, they all have very specific, ideal diets that are optimal.
And they don't deviate from that diet. It is automatic for them.

We humans have distorted that diet, and now we don't know what that "original" one was !

Will we ever find that "ultimate diet"? Likely
Will humans follow that diet once found? Very unlikely :bigsmile:

This isn't really true for top predator species. Often, mid-chain carnivores and herbivores are very specific about which prey items they choose, but top predators will often turn to scavaging, eating bones, hide, and periodically herbivory to keep themselves going. This also varies significantly if the species is distributed widely globally or is migratory.

Yes, you have a good point.
Diets not only change betweem species, but within a species based on geographical location, etc.

So if we ever find the "ultimate diet" for the humans, it would need to be adapted per the specific circumstances of the humans.
For example, eskimos probably need a diet very different than humans at the african desert.

So the search continues...

Elizabeth_C34

I think that yes, there is out there to be found an "ultimate diet" for humans.
Reason: if you look at the diet of different species of animals, they all have very specific, ideal diets that are optimal.
And they don't deviate from that diet. It is automatic for them.

We humans have distorted that diet, and now we don't know what that "original" one was !

Will we ever find that "ultimate diet"? Likely
Will humans follow that diet once found? Very unlikely :bigsmile:

This isn't really true for top predator species. Often, mid-chain carnivores and herbivores are very specific about which prey items they choose, but top predators will often turn to scavaging, eating bones, hide, and periodically herbivory to keep themselves going. This also varies significantly if the species is distributed widely globally or is migratory.

Yes, you have a good point.
Diets not only change betweem species, but within a species based on geographical location, etc.

So if we ever find the "ultimate diet" for the humans, it would need to be adapted per the specific circumstances of the humans.
For example, eskimos probably need a diet very different than humans at the african desert.

So the search continues...

... but doesn't that just prove that there is no ideal diet for human beings? If we have to adapt it significantly for subpopulations, then that would mean that there is no universally ideal diet.

RunLiftEat

.

suziecue66

The ultimate diet is the one you can maintain.

delilah47

speechless...................................................................................................................

ElPumaMex

I think that yes, there is out there to be found an "ultimate diet" for humans.
Reason: if you look at the diet of different species of animals, they all have very specific, ideal diets that are optimal.
And they don't deviate from that diet. It is automatic for them.

We humans have distorted that diet, and now we don't know what that "original" one was !

Will we ever find that "ultimate diet"? Likely
Will humans follow that diet once found? Very unlikely :bigsmile:

This isn't really true for top predator species. Often, mid-chain carnivores and herbivores are very specific about which prey items they choose, but top predators will often turn to scavaging, eating bones, hide, and periodically herbivory to keep themselves going. This also varies significantly if the species is distributed widely globally or is migratory.

Yes, you have a good point.
Diets not only change betweem species, but within a species based on geographical location, etc.

So if we ever find the "ultimate diet" for the humans, it would need to be adapted per the specific circumstances of the humans.
For example, eskimos probably need a diet very different than humans at the african desert.

So the search continues...

... but doesn't that just prove that there is no ideal diet for human beings? If we have to adapt it significantly for subpopulations, then that would mean that there is no universally ideal diet.

Not really:

Even for the examples you had proving your point, the variation of the diet for a particular species is not that great.
Of course, you would need to "tweak" the diet for humans living under different extreme regions, but I would expect that for most of the humans living in "civilized" urban environemnts, the ideal diet would be very much the same.

Now, as I stated later, no matter if we find that ideal diet or not, humans will keep eating to whatever they think best for their situation.

All I ever hope for in the long run, is to answer generic questions as:
Are humans designed to be vegetarians, or are we truly omnivorous? etc

Kymmu

I just eat fresh food and as little processed food as possible.
I feel a tonne better.
If this fits "paleo" then that's what is working for me.
14 months now, I'm not seeing any downside. lots of protein, lots of vegetables, eggs and nuts.
If I'm doing it and not complaining - why should it bother anyone else?
Go eat what ever you please I....... could care less

I think some people just like to pick an argument for the sake of it.

Elizabeth_C34

I think that yes, there is out there to be found an "ultimate diet" for humans.
Reason: if you look at the diet of different species of animals, they all have very specific, ideal diets that are optimal.
And they don't deviate from that diet. It is automatic for them.

We humans have distorted that diet, and now we don't know what that "original" one was !

Will we ever find that "ultimate diet"? Likely
Will humans follow that diet once found? Very unlikely :bigsmile:

This isn't really true for top predator species. Often, mid-chain carnivores and herbivores are very specific about which prey items they choose, but top predators will often turn to scavaging, eating bones, hide, and periodically herbivory to keep themselves going. This also varies significantly if the species is distributed widely globally or is migratory.

Yes, you have a good point.
Diets not only change betweem species, but within a species based on geographical location, etc.

So if we ever find the "ultimate diet" for the humans, it would need to be adapted per the specific circumstances of the humans.
For example, eskimos probably need a diet very different than humans at the african desert.

So the search continues...

... but doesn't that just prove that there is no ideal diet for human beings? If we have to adapt it significantly for subpopulations, then that would mean that there is no universally ideal diet.

Not really:

Even for the examples you had proving your point, the variation of the diet for a particular species is not that great.
Of course, you would need to "tweak" the diet for humans living under different extreme regions, but I would expect that for most of the humans living in "civilized" urban environemnts, the ideal diet would be very much the same.

Now, as I stated later, no matter if we find that ideal diet or not, humans will keep eating to whatever they think best for their situation.

All I ever hope for in the long run, is to answer generic questions as:
Are humans designed to be vegetarians, or are we truly omnivorous? etc

Actually it is quite different. Many species of large cats have been known to go from active hunting to eating shrubs and grass during times of starvation or inadequate prey availability. In fish, especially teleosts (tunas, marlin, etc.) and elasmobranchs (sharks, rays, etc.), there have been studies showing that these animals have gone from eating live prey (usually other smaller teleost fish) to scavaging marine mammal carcasses and other alternatives sources of food. Some fish even eat rocks to get mineral supplements lacking in their normal carnivorous diets.

My point is that you're saying that people who live a certain way require a certain diet. The fact that people live differently implies (combied with previous statement) that the diet must also change. This means that there is no ideal diet for human beings. Whether those changes are large or small is irrelevant. If the "ideal" exists, it must exists across all individuals regardless of habitat, culture, or other physiological needs. Otherwise, the ideal can only exist FOR THAT SUBPOPULATION under those rules, not for all humans.