"Spike Day" Nonsense
Replies
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While I don't refute said studies, I do believe there are benfits even in a short term rise in leptin. Eating at a surplus of carbohydrates when glycogen stores are nearly empty does not result in fat gain. Once glycogen stores are full and even supercompensated if done correctly, you can get a workout far superior to a normal workout on a deficit. You also cannot discount other hormonal respones such as increases in DHEA, the building block to testosterone and estrogen and thyroid hormone in the active fat burning form T3. I imagine you would also see a rise in IGF-1 as a result of the increase in carbohydrate consumption. I know IGF-1 rises after overeating , just not sure on the exact timetable. You also can't discount the negative feedback loop that controls our hormonal systems. Going from a state of highly catabolic (high caloric deficit) to highly anabolic (caloric intake over maint.), will cause fat burning to increase until homestasis is reached.
I have taken people who had tried to lose weight for six months and were unsuccessful and got them losing, some as much as 50lbs. I personally have helped many, many people using this method. While I do believe the science is there to back it up, whether or not it can be proven in a lab makes no difference to me. It works, plain and simple and thats my main concern.0 -
Sooooo
I was stuck at a 184 for some time. I then added a surplus of cals every sunday to my weekly regimens.
I then began to lose at a steady pace of 1 lb per week.
Are you saying that when I did this it was like taking a 2 week break of maintanence?
I wouldn't attempt to conclude anything of value from the experiences of one person.0 -
While I don't refute said studies, I do believe there are benfits even in a short term rise in leptin. Eating at a surplus of carbohydrates when glycogen stores are nearly empty does not result in fat gain. Once glycogen stores are full and even supercompensated if done correctly, you can get a workout far superior to a normal workout on a deficit. You also cannot discount other hormonal respones such as increases in DHEA, the building block to testosterone and estrogen and thyroid hormone in the active fat burning form T3. I imagine you would also see a rise in IGF-1 as a result of the increase in carbohydrate consumption. I know IGF-1 rises after overeating , just not sure on the exact timetable. You also can't discount the negative feedback loop that controls our hormonal systems. Going from a state of highly catabolic (high caloric deficit) to highly anabolic (caloric intake over maint.), will cause fat burning to increase until homestasis is reached.
I have taken people who had tried to lose weight for six months and were unsuccessful and got them losing, some as much as 50lbs. I personally have helped many, many people using this method. While I do believe the science is there to back it up, whether or not it can be proven in a lab makes no difference to me. It works, plain and simple and thats my main concern.
Right on.0 -
Eating at a surplus of carbohydrates when glycogen stores are nearly empty does not result in fat gain. Once glycogen stores are full and even supercompensated if done correctly, you can get a workout far superior to a normal workout on a deficit.
For the average population using MFP, they do not have to worry about glycogen depletion. They simply do not train hard enough to encounter this. Id also hazard a guess its the dropping of cortisol during the overfeed period the releases water weight from the system.0 -
Sooooo
I was stuck at a 184 for some time. I then added a surplus of cals every sunday to my weekly regimens.
I then began to lose at a steady pace of 1 lb per week.
Are you saying that when I did this it was like taking a 2 week break of maintanence?
I wouldn't attempt to conclude anything of value from the experiences of one person.
So.. What I get from this is I am the exception
I like that.
I tend to not over thinkg things Or maybe I'm just a big ole dummy jock!
Anyway I had great sucess with spiking and it also mentally helped me understand that if I did binge and I did fall off it was ok.
Personally, I been in this game a long time. I am 34. I built a great phyqiue over the yrs. I built it, ruined it and built it again.
Its a great tool to have in the aresnal. You should try it and give first person feedback0 -
While I don't refute said studies, I do believe there are benfits even in a short term rise in leptin. Eating at a surplus of carbohydrates when glycogen stores are nearly empty does not result in fat gain. Once glycogen stores are full and even supercompensated if done correctly, you can get a workout far superior to a normal workout on a deficit. You also cannot discount other hormonal respones such as increases in DHEA, the building block to testosterone and estrogen and thyroid hormone in the active fat burning form T3. I imagine you would also see a rise in IGF-1 as a result of the increase in carbohydrate consumption. I know IGF-1 rises after overeating , just not sure on the exact timetable. You also can't discount the negative feedback loop that controls our hormonal systems. Going from a state of highly catabolic (high caloric deficit) to highly anabolic (caloric intake over maint.), will cause fat burning to increase until homestasis is reached.
I have taken people who had tried to lose weight for six months and were unsuccessful and got them losing, some as much as 50lbs. I personally have helped many, many people using this method. While I do believe the science is there to back it up, whether or not it can be proven in a lab makes no difference to me. It works, plain and simple and thats my main concern.
Is it at all possible that the psychological benefit of having a weekly "spike day" lead to greater adherence vs any of the physiological responses to overfeeding you mentioned and that is why they were successful?0 -
While I don't refute said studies, I do believe there are benfits even in a short term rise in leptin. Eating at a surplus of carbohydrates when glycogen stores are nearly empty does not result in fat gain. Once glycogen stores are full and even supercompensated if done correctly, you can get a workout far superior to a normal workout on a deficit. You also cannot discount other hormonal respones such as increases in DHEA, the building block to testosterone and estrogen and thyroid hormone in the active fat burning form T3. I imagine you would also see a rise in IGF-1 as a result of the increase in carbohydrate consumption. I know IGF-1 rises after overeating , just not sure on the exact timetable. You also can't discount the negative feedback loop that controls our hormonal systems. Going from a state of highly catabolic (high caloric deficit) to highly anabolic (caloric intake over maint.), will cause fat burning to increase until homestasis is reached.
I have taken people who had tried to lose weight for six months and were unsuccessful and got them losing, some as much as 50lbs. I personally have helped many, many people using this method. While I do believe the science is there to back it up, whether or not it can be proven in a lab makes no difference to me. It works, plain and simple and thats my main concern.
Is it at all possible that the psychological benefit of having a weekly "spike day" lead to greater adherence vs any of the physiological responses to overfeeding you mentioned and that is why they were successful?
Diet adherence will always trump miniscule hormonal changes caused by a day of over eating.0 -
While I don't refute said studies, I do believe there are benfits even in a short term rise in leptin. Eating at a surplus of carbohydrates when glycogen stores are nearly empty does not result in fat gain. Once glycogen stores are full and even supercompensated if done correctly, you can get a workout far superior to a normal workout on a deficit. You also cannot discount other hormonal respones such as increases in DHEA, the building block to testosterone and estrogen and thyroid hormone in the active fat burning form T3. I imagine you would also see a rise in IGF-1 as a result of the increase in carbohydrate consumption. I know IGF-1 rises after overeating , just not sure on the exact timetable. You also can't discount the negative feedback loop that controls our hormonal systems. Going from a state of highly catabolic (high caloric deficit) to highly anabolic (caloric intake over maint.), will cause fat burning to increase until homestasis is reached.
I have taken people who had tried to lose weight for six months and were unsuccessful and got them losing, some as much as 50lbs. I personally have helped many, many people using this method. While I do believe the science is there to back it up, whether or not it can be proven in a lab makes no difference to me. It works, plain and simple and thats my main concern.
Is it at all possible that the psychological benefit of having a weekly "spike day" lead to greater adherence vs any of the physiological responses to overfeeding you mentioned and that is why they were successful?
Diet adherence will always trump miniscule hormonal changes caused by a day of over eating.
Certainly, it is much easier to adhere to a diet if we have one day a week to let go a bit but to dismiss the power of hormones is looking at it a bit blindly.0 -
While I don't refute said studies, I do believe there are benfits even in a short term rise in leptin. Eating at a surplus of carbohydrates when glycogen stores are nearly empty does not result in fat gain. Once glycogen stores are full and even supercompensated if done correctly, you can get a workout far superior to a normal workout on a deficit. You also cannot discount other hormonal respones such as increases in DHEA, the building block to testosterone and estrogen and thyroid hormone in the active fat burning form T3. I imagine you would also see a rise in IGF-1 as a result of the increase in carbohydrate consumption. I know IGF-1 rises after overeating , just not sure on the exact timetable. You also can't discount the negative feedback loop that controls our hormonal systems. Going from a state of highly catabolic (high caloric deficit) to highly anabolic (caloric intake over maint.), will cause fat burning to increase until homestasis is reached.
I have taken people who had tried to lose weight for six months and were unsuccessful and got them losing, some as much as 50lbs. I personally have helped many, many people using this method. While I do believe the science is there to back it up, whether or not it can be proven in a lab makes no difference to me. It works, plain and simple and thats my main concern.
If you're going to claim that a 24 hour refeed is going to raise test, you have to back it up with a little more than what you "imagine."
Even if it did, a drop in testosterone isn't a concern to most people on this website. Going from overweight or obese to normal weight, along with a healthier diet and exercise, is going to increase test. Bodybuilders dieting to a very low bodyfat are the ones that need to worry about those issues (and I doubt 24 hours of more food is going to do anything for them either).
As far as glycogen supercompensation, that's moot if you're not training to glycogen depletion in the first place. It is a method that can be beneficial if employed correctly (a la Lyle's Ultimate Diet 2.0), but that doesn't mean you can apply the same principles a a run-of-the-mill caloric deficit. Even then, whether or not it's superior to a straight calorie deficit is more theory than proven fact.
On a similar note, "going from highly anabolic to highly catabolic" might give you an acute affect of "increased fat burning," but even if it does, it has not been proven that it would give you better results than a moderate deficit over time, and I doubt that it would.0 -
While I don't refute said studies, I do believe there are benfits even in a short term rise in leptin. Eating at a surplus of carbohydrates when glycogen stores are nearly empty does not result in fat gain. Once glycogen stores are full and even supercompensated if done correctly, you can get a workout far superior to a normal workout on a deficit. You also cannot discount other hormonal respones such as increases in DHEA, the building block to testosterone and estrogen and thyroid hormone in the active fat burning form T3. I imagine you would also see a rise in IGF-1 as a result of the increase in carbohydrate consumption. I know IGF-1 rises after overeating , just not sure on the exact timetable. You also can't discount the negative feedback loop that controls our hormonal systems. Going from a state of highly catabolic (high caloric deficit) to highly anabolic (caloric intake over maint.), will cause fat burning to increase until homestasis is reached.
I have taken people who had tried to lose weight for six months and were unsuccessful and got them losing, some as much as 50lbs. I personally have helped many, many people using this method. While I do believe the science is there to back it up, whether or not it can be proven in a lab makes no difference to me. It works, plain and simple and thats my main concern.
Is it at all possible that the psychological benefit of having a weekly "spike day" lead to greater adherence vs any of the physiological responses to overfeeding you mentioned and that is why they were successful?
Diet adherence will always trump miniscule hormonal changes caused by a day of over eating.
Certainly, it is much easier to adhere to a diet if we have one day a week to let go a bit but to dismiss the power of hormones is looking at it a bit blindly.
I do not dismiss the power of hormones. Only the power of hormones released in a oneday overfeed.0 -
I wouldn't attempt to conclude anything of value from the experiences of one person.
Agreed . . . unless I am myself that one person. Then I'd consider it valuable to know what works for me, whatever the underlying psychological or physiological cause.0 -
So.. What I get from this is I am the exception
I like that.
I tend to not over thinkg things Or maybe I'm just a big ole dummy jock!
Anyway I had great sucess with spiking and it also mentally helped me understand that if I did binge and I did fall off it was ok.
Personally, I been in this game a long time. I am 34. I built a great phyqiue over the yrs. I built it, ruined it and built it again.
Its a great tool to have in the aresnal. You should try it and give first person feedback
I doubt you're the exception to anything. To the extent that the Spike Day diet works, it's because it results in a net negative calorie balance.0 -
I wouldn't attempt to conclude anything of value from the experiences of one person.
Agreed . . . unless I am myself that one person. Then I'd consider it valuable to know what works for me, whatever the underlying psychological or physiological cause.
THIS...0 -
In those years, various approaches have come and gone. In general, short refeeds, lasting from 5 to 24 hours were used every so often while dieting. I’ve tried them all. The Bodyopus diet was aimed at this goal, alternating 5 days of low-cal/ketogenic dieting with 2 days of high-carbohdyrate eating. Other approaches such as the Anabolic Diet or Rob Faigan’s Natural Hormonal Enhancement followed roughly the same scheme. There have been numerous other schemes over the years that alternated periods of low and high calories. The question is whether or not those programs were optimal. In my opinion, they aren’t for several reasons.
One of the factors I’ve been considering to a great degree has to do with the length of the overfeeding period. While it’s true that 5 (or 12 or 24) hours of concentrated overfeeding will raise leptin, the more important question is whether that’s sufficient to ‘tell’ the brain that you’re fed. While data (especially in humans) is nonexistent, my hunch is no.
There’s a lag time of several days between the drop in leptin and the drop in metabolic rate (nervous system output) for example; I’d be surprised if a mere 12 or 24 hours was sufficient to reverse this. Rather, I’d expect it to take a similar amount of time for the reversal to occur. The reasons I feel this way are sort of beyond the scope of this book, send me an email if you really must know.
Now, this isn’t to say that short carb-loads/refeeds aren’t of benefit. They refill glycogen, turn off catabolism and maybe induce an anabolic response to boot. They also let you eat some of the crap you’re really craving which helps psychologically. But I doubt they are sufficient to affect metabolism very much. Instead, a longer refeed is necessary. The drawback, of course, is that longer refeeds have a tendency to put too much bodyfat back on which goes agains the entire goal of dieting.
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/calorie-partitioning-part-2.html0 -
I wouldn't attempt to conclude anything of value from the experiences of one person.
Agreed . . . unless I am myself that one person. Then I'd consider it valuable to know what works for me, whatever the underlying psychological or physiological cause.
Even when we find something that works for the individual, we should still keep on eye on the science, if for no other reason than isolating the positive factors and simplifying things.
If I started by eating less and stabbing myself in the face with a fork, you wouldn't advise me to keep doing so because it "works for me." (Just to be clear, this is not an analogy for the Spike Day diet)0 -
I wouldn't attempt to conclude anything of value from the experiences of one person.
Agreed . . . unless I am myself that one person. Then I'd consider it valuable to know what works for me, whatever the underlying psychological or physiological cause.
Even when we find something that works for the individual, we should still keep on eye on the science, if for no other reason than isolating the positive factors and simplifying things.
If I started by eating less and stabbing myself in the face with a fork, you wouldn't advise me to keep doing so because it "works for me." (Just to be clear, this is not an analogy for the Spike Day diet)
What is your opinion of HCG drops? I've heard tons of people lost weight on it even though nearly all studies refute the notion that HCG is of any benefit for weight loss0 -
Even when we find something that works for the individual, we should still keep on eye on the science, if for no other reason than isolating the positive factors and simplifying things.
No doubt.If I started by eating less and stabbing myself in the face with a fork, you wouldn't advise me to keep doing so because it "works for me." (Just to be clear, this is not an analogy for the Spike Day diet)
No, I wouldn't advise you to do it. I'd rush to myfitnesspal and write a long post about how everyone needs to stab themselves with a fork, and they are fools if they don't!
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All spike days ever did for me was negate my deficit. Maybe I overdid them? :blushing:
What has worked for me is a 1 week "refeed" where I eat at maintenance. I do this every 3 months. It helps me stick to the deficit eating the rest of the time, too.
Usually. Except for last fall, where the refeed week turned into 3 months . Oh well, back at it again!0 -
So.. What I get from this is I am the exception
I like that.
I tend to not over thinkg things Or maybe I'm just a big ole dummy jock!
Anyway I had great sucess with spiking and it also mentally helped me understand that if I did binge and I did fall off it was ok.
Personally, I been in this game a long time. I am 34. I built a great phyqiue over the yrs. I built it, ruined it and built it again.
Its a great tool to have in the aresnal. You should try it and give first person feedback
I doubt you're the exception to anything. To the extent that the Spike Day diet works, it's because it results in a net negative calorie balance.
I had a net negative calorie balance for months on end without losing anything. The last time I had lost weight was in August 2011 - yep, nothing since then. I tried upping my calories, eating at maintenance, etc. Nothing. I have been patient, clearly, or I wouldn't still be here. I do not try things for one week and say "oh, that didn't work, on to something else." I don't believe something works unless it does so consistently. Since spiking I have lost 6 pounds (in four weeks). It remains to be seen if this continues. If it does, then whatever the science behind spiking, it works. As long as it doesn't harm my body, I'm okay with seeing results without fulling understanding the why. Check back with me in a month.0 -
I like you
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Author of the Spike Diet is on this site, so I'll be curious to see his response. We could actually have a sound scientific discussion for once.0
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I'm very glad this was posted. I used to subscribe to the idea that single day surplusses increased Leptin, but there was a very interesting thread on bb.com that basically claimed what OP is claiming here, that leptin drops very fast when calories are brought back down.
I am still curious if there are any other hormones that are effected by higher intake days. I am going to re-read that thread I'm talking about, because I recall some evidence that there still was some physiological benefit to high intake days, it's just that it wasn't specific to leptin for reasons stated in this thread.
But, I'll thoroughly read that first, as I could be mis-remembering things.0 -
bumping for when I have more time : )0
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I'm very glad this was posted. I used to subscribe to the idea that single day surplusses increased Leptin, but there was a very interesting thread on bb.com that basically claimed what OP is claiming here, that leptin drops very fast when calories are brought back down.
I am still curious if there are any other hormones that are effected by higher intake days. I am going to re-read that thread I'm talking about, because I recall some evidence that there still was some physiological benefit to high intake days, it's just that it wasn't specific to leptin for reasons stated in this thread.
But, I'll thoroughly read that first, as I could be mis-remembering things.
Ss, would love to see any info on that when you reread it. Or possible post a link to the info? thanks0 -
I'm very glad this was posted. I used to subscribe to the idea that single day surplusses increased Leptin, but there was a very interesting thread on bb.com that basically claimed what OP is claiming here, that leptin drops very fast when calories are brought back down.
I am still curious if there are any other hormones that are effected by higher intake days. I am going to re-read that thread I'm talking about, because I recall some evidence that there still was some physiological benefit to high intake days, it's just that it wasn't specific to leptin for reasons stated in this thread.
But, I'll thoroughly read that first, as I could be mis-remembering things.
link us up mate
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Hmmm I don't know actually. I use a cheat meal on my guys ONE meal a week. They have anything they like. When I drop this ONE calorie heavy meal per week the following week they can, when getting sub 10% get exhausted without the calorie bounce.
Whilst I fully understand the concept of leptin and t3 (having kept preaching the fact that starvation mode doesn't exist) I do know mental and physical tiredness is greatly increased.
Whether its simply the excess calories and glycogen refill for extra energy or not, I would not remove them from a diet from my guys and my guys always get ripped.
I'd also like to see how different people react - these tests are done on RATS. Therefore it is NOT the same as a TRAINED athlete who is carrying above normal levels of lean mass who's muscular is depleted of the glycogen they usually carry.
Just my 5c.0 -
OMG that is a long long read.
Ok so now should we have this thread deleted?
lol0 -
Hmmm I don't know actually. I use a cheat meal on my guys ONE meal a week. They have anything they like. When I drop this ONE calorie heavy meal per week the following week they can, when getting sub 10% get exhausted without the calorie bounce.
Whilst I fully understand the concept of leptin and t3 (having kept preaching the fact that starvation mode doesn't exist) I do know mental and physical tiredness is greatly increased.
Whether its simply the excess calories and glycogen refill for extra energy or not, I would not remove them from a diet from my guys and my guys always get ripped.
I'd also like to see how different people react - these tests are done on RATS. Therefore it is NOT the same as a TRAINED athlete who is carrying above normal levels of lean mass who's muscular is depleted of the glycogen they usually carry.
Just my 5c.
Now I will listen to this. First thing I look at when I listen to someone is their physique.
So you say 1 meal is sufficient? What I took from the read is the one day SPIKE is all around good
No?0 -
Bumping to read later 0
This discussion has been closed.
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