"Enhancement" or "Cheating"? Your opinion.

HeaderAutumn

Okay, saying this might get me in trouble but, I don't care as long as you are honest. If you lost a lot of weight by liposuction, don't tell people it was JUST diet and working out. If you take supplements that help you out then so be it. As long as you are honest and don't try to force me to do it, then why should I force you not to?

snookumss

cheating:
Verb:

Act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, esp. in a game or examination: "she cheats at cards".
Deceive or trick.


Given the definition, I believe the use of "enhancements" is cheating only if the enhancements are forbidden by the rule of the sport or the rules of society.

The enhancements discussed this morning may be stupid, or a "short cut", but I don't see how they can be considered "cheating"

I agree with this. You can't "CHEAT" unless there is competition. IF you go beyond the rules Ie in a tested comp.... you are cheating. If that competition is UNTESTED and its a given people are using these so called enhancements, then its not cheating. If somebody was recreationally using an "enhancement' how is that cheating if there are no rules to be bound by or competition involved?

snookumss

Anyone bigger than me must be on roids.

On a serious note, I don't care what people do. The only thing I have a problem with is either (1) belittling others for their natural muscle/strength achievements when yours were drug-assisted or (2) other minimizing the role drugs have played in your athletic achievements.

Steroids work, and they work very, very well. Patting yourself on the back for making great gains while on gear is monumentally douchey.

That reminds me of my gear. I am a powerlifter. I have a bench shirt, I've trained in squat suits, we use wrist wraps and some of the powerlifting shirts are so stiff they'll stand up on their own. I've been accused of cheating as well, because my WORLD RECORD was in a bench press shirt. Just because I wear a shirt and the every day average person doesn't, apparently makes that cheating. Thats like saying my alternative bench press form is cheating, because I arch my back and change the motion the bar moves. These aren't cheating, just "enhancements" and even "safety measures/precautions".

The difference. IF I said I were to do a 225.7lb bench press RAW or withheld my bench shirt as a fact, that would be cheating/lying. I'm not dumb enough to do that, but some people have gone off on me for "cheating" on my lifts. I'd like to see any random fool toss on a bench shirt and pull off triple their bench with no practice. I've trained hard and harder than many ever will, my bench shirt doesn't change that.

Anayalata

Anyone bigger than me must be on roids.

On a serious note, I don't care what people do. The only thing I have a problem with is either (1) belittling others for their natural muscle/strength achievements when yours were drug-assisted or (2) other minimizing the role drugs have played in your athletic achievements.

Steroids work, and they work very, very well. Patting yourself on the back for making great gains while on gear is monumentally douchey.

I was going to post, then I read this and decided it was better than what I would have posted. Couldn't agree more.

+1 on this. Steroids, when used correctly, are no different than a multi-vitamin (in my opinion). The only problem that arises is when people on steroids belittle the efforts of those that choose to go "all natural."

ninerbuff

That reminds me of my gear. I am a powerlifter. I have a bench shirt, I've trained in squat suits, we use wrist wraps and some of the powerlifting shirts are so stiff they'll stand up on their own. I've been accused of cheating as well, because my WORLD RECORD was in a bench press shirt. Just because I wear a shirt and the every day average person doesn't, apparently makes that cheating. Thats like saying my alternative bench press form is cheating, because I arch my back and change the motion the bar moves. These aren't cheating, just "enhancements" and even "safety measures/precautions".

The difference. IF I said I were to do a 225.7lb bench press RAW or withheld my bench shirt as a fact, that would be cheating/lying. I'm not dumb enough to do that, but some people have gone off on me for "cheating" on my lifts. I'd like to see any random fool toss on a bench shirt and pull off triple their bench with no practice. I've trained hard and harder than many ever will, my bench shirt doesn't change that.

To me this is no different than the bike racers that wear special clothing and helmets, runners who wear special shoes, downhill skiers who wear friction resistant clothing, etc.

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snookumss

That reminds me of my gear. I am a powerlifter. I have a bench shirt, I've trained in squat suits, we use wrist wraps and some of the powerlifting shirts are so stiff they'll stand up on their own. I've been accused of cheating as well, because my WORLD RECORD was in a bench press shirt. Just because I wear a shirt and the every day average person doesn't, apparently makes that cheating. Thats like saying my alternative bench press form is cheating, because I arch my back and change the motion the bar moves. These aren't cheating, just "enhancements" and even "safety measures/precautions".

The difference. IF I said I were to do a 225.7lb bench press RAW or withheld my bench shirt as a fact, that would be cheating/lying. I'm not dumb enough to do that, but some people have gone off on me for "cheating" on my lifts. I'd like to see any random fool toss on a bench shirt and pull off triple their bench with no practice. I've trained hard and harder than many ever will, my bench shirt doesn't change that.

To me this is no different than the bike racers that wear special clothing and helmets, runners who wear special shoes, downhill skiers who wear friction resistant clothing, etc.

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Exactly!!! Whats the difference between that and using a personal choice to use "gear".... I don't see one. I personally won't unless my income were to depend upon physical performance or appearance... but to each their own!

Scott613

What happens when enhancements stop being used? Is the individual just as good or does this individual have to try harder to maintain or even be on the same level? I believe what you're referring to is technology. In that case the better technology always wins! Call it what you want, once your enhancements/technology run out you will regress:indifferent: :indifferent:

mandylooo

"Enhancement" is something that serves vanity, at the expense of one's health.

If he prioritizes what his arms look like, then fine, I could care less. But he shouldn't be giving advice to people who care about their health.

In some ways I couldn't care less ( i.e it's up to them what they do - "could care less" means that you are concerned about what they do) what people do to their bodies, but I totally agree it's missed the point when the "enhancement", and I guess we're using this as a euphemism for steroids and possibly surgery (implants, lipo) can actually have a detrimental effect on your health. Completely misses the point of what most people are trying to accomplish.

jmatthews75

lubrication... Cheating or enhancement???

since we are asking crazy stuff, why not... what would lubrication be then?

I say if you can do something to achieve a goal and make that goal easier, then it is a good thing. As long as you reach the goal. Its YOUR body, so if you want to put chemicals into it, or in the case of lubrication, onto it.. then go for it, its your body, who is anyone else to judge who or what you are?

mandylooo

I am taking this journey to become the best me, not only from a "look good" point of view but from a health point of view. I would consider it cheating if what you are choosing to do sacrifices your health to look good.... What is the point of looking good in the short term if it prevents you from living a full and healthy life in the long term...

but, in the end, the only person you are "cheating" is yourself... unless you are competing.

So would you consider breast implants "cheating" based on this reply?

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I haven't look into it (since I am not nor ever will be in the need)... but do you really take a significant chance to destroy your long term healthy to get them? I know there would be extremely rare surgical risks, but I don't think there is significant evidence that the modern implant would cause serious issues (may be wrong, haven't done the research) I don't necessarily think that cosmetic surgery is cheating since there are instances that no amount of work on the part of the person is going to create the best outcome for them.

You are wrong. Thousands of women in Europe are currently having repeat surgery to remove faulty implants which could potentially damage their health. It's started a big debate over here about licensing restrictions for implants.

mandylooo

"Enhancement" is something that serves vanity, at the expense of one's health.

If he prioritizes what his arms look like, then fine, I could care less. But he shouldn't be giving advice to people who care about their health.

I won't go into detail (that's probably for another thread and I don't want to get this one locked), but there isn't any scientific evidence that shows that "enhancement" drugs (when taken in correct dosage and monitored by a physician) are detrimental to one's health. There may be side effects from individual standpoints, but there are hundreds of HRT clinics around the US alone that do this.

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I don’t doubt this one bit but I know people that have used steroids and it seems to be more of a psychological effect than anything else. When they have to stop using and they lose the majority of their gains they can't handle it. Then the cycle starts over again until it eventually becomes an addiction. A lot like plastic surgery for women, they usually can't stop just getting one procedure.

Taking steroids is illegal in the US isn't it? If so, it makes studies of side effects more difficult as people aren't usually that keen to confess they're doing something illegal. It's also unlikely, if it's an illegal activity, that it will be monitored by a physician and isn't being abused at a dangerous level.

This is a bit anecdotal, and I don't particularly like anecdotes, but there have been plenty of former communist block athletes from the 70s and 80s who have died young from heart attacks and the like.

So, I guess it is up to the individual what they do, but how do they know whether what they're doing is harming them or not?

ladyraven68

I hope that we all can keep this civil as a debate because I know we all won't see eye to eye on it, but let's try to "hear out" opinions and views on this.

A thread I was on this morning inspired me to post a thread on this. The thread showed progress of a member losing weight and doing good, but "enhancement" was included to assist along the way. Some of the debate went out of bounds, but it got me thinking of whether some thought it was cheating or enhancement?

Think about this for a second: 2 people go on a weight loss plan together and lose 20lbs. They bet each other who can get to it first. One decides to just do it by calorie deficit, the other by calorie deficit and exercise. The person who does exercise loses faster and ends up winning. Now is this "enhancement" to what the other is doing or is it "cheating" if the goal is just to lose weight the fastest?

2 swimmers on the same team with the same speed on a lap wear different suits. One wears a regular Speedo while the other wears one with "friction resistance" in the water. Enhancement or cheating?

A golfer who used to wear glasses gets his eyes "lasiked" so he doesn't have to wear them and slightly improves his vision. He now golfs better. Enhancement or cheating?

Someone takes enhancement drugs to lose weight and improve physique. Many call this "cheating", but why would it be if the others up above wouldn't be considered cheating?

My personal opinion is that anything you can do to "enhance" what you're doing is just that.........enhancement. If a child studies with flash cards and his peers do not and he scores better, then he enhanced his learning skills. If he had the exact answers to the test and just copied them down and then transferred it to the test, then obviously it would be cheating. But where do you draw the line to enhancement and cheating?

Thoughts and be civil.

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Enhancements are OK because the enhancements are available to everyone if they chose it, and can afford it.

Cheating is only going to come into play when there are rules. Rules are there to make sure everyone in a competition starts on a level playing field.

Athletes who take performance enhancing drugs when the rules don't allow them - Cheaters

Joe down the gym that takes performance enhancing drugs - Enhancer - Everyone else in the gym has the same options available.

usc2626

Anyone bigger than me must be on roids.

On a serious note, I don't care what people do. The only thing I have a problem with is either (1) belittling others for their natural muscle/strength achievements when yours were drug-assisted or (2) other minimizing the role drugs have played in your athletic achievements.

Steroids work, and they work very, very well. Patting yourself on the back for making great gains while on gear is monumentally douchey.

I was going to post, then I read this and decided it was better than what I would have posted. Couldn't agree more.

+1 on this. Steroids, when used correctly, are NO different than a multi-vitamin (in my opinion). The only problem that arises is when people on steroids belittle the efforts of those that choose to go "all natural."

Steroids are WAY different than a multi vitamin! The gains in size and strength made from using steroids are incomparable to any other supplement you can buy. Once off off steroids a good bit of those gains are lost.

larkiedeek

I'm all for "enhancement".

We have the olympic games in a couple of months. I find this whole "drug-free" argument a joke. Let them take whatever they want. It's their decision. Let them run as fast/jump as high as medicine and training can take them.

ninerbuff

What happens when enhancements stop being used? Is the individual just as good or does this individual have to try harder to maintain or even be on the same level? I believe what you're referring to is technology. In that case the better technology always wins! Call it what you want, once your enhancements/technology run out you will regress:indifferent: :indifferent:

Lol, like viagra? The Mrs. may be looking for electric comfort!:laugh:


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ninerbuff

I am taking this journey to become the best me, not only from a "look good" point of view but from a health point of view. I would consider it cheating if what you are choosing to do sacrifices your health to look good.... What is the point of looking good in the short term if it prevents you from living a full and healthy life in the long term...

but, in the end, the only person you are "cheating" is yourself... unless you are competing.

So would you consider breast implants "cheating" based on this reply?

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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I haven't look into it (since I am not nor ever will be in the need)... but do you really take a significant chance to destroy your long term healthy to get them? I know there would be extremely rare surgical risks, but I don't think there is significant evidence that the modern implant would cause serious issues (may be wrong, haven't done the research) I don't necessarily think that cosmetic surgery is cheating since there are instances that no amount of work on the part of the person is going to create the best outcome for them.

You are wrong. Thousands of women in Europe are currently having repeat surgery to remove faulty implants which could potentially damage their health. It's started a big debate over here about licensing restrictions for implants.

Moral of the story.............don't get implants in Europe.


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ninerbuff

Taking steroids is illegal in the US isn't it? If so, it makes studies of side effects more difficult as people aren't usually that keen to confess they're doing something illegal. It's also unlikely, if it's an illegal activity, that it will be monitored by a physician and isn't being abused at a dangerous level.

Illegal possession of steroids is against the law. It can still be prescribed.

This is a bit anecdotal, and I don't particularly like anecdotes, but there have been plenty of former communist block athletes from the 70s and 80s who have died young from heart attacks and the like.

I don't doubt it, but what needs to be looked at is what the dosage was, what was the cycle like, etc. Abuse of any drug ends up bad.

So, I guess it is up to the individual what they do, but how do they know whether what they're doing is harming them or not?

There have been several peer reviewed studies done on anabolic steroids that have shown that they are safe IF dosage is correct and the patient is monitored. The problem is that many buy them under the table since they are illegal to purchase without prescription and at that point they may be getting a contaminated product.


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marieautumn

Moral of the story.............don't get implants in Europe.

yep. go American or go home.
and the surgery is really not as bad as you would think. i had zero pain and even went to the movies that night. the only sucky thing is you have to take meds that make you kinda of emotional. i spilled a dr pepper and actually cried. LOL

ninerbuff

I'm all for "enhancement".

We have the olympic games in a couple of months. I find this whole "drug-free" argument a joke. Let them take whatever they want. It's their decision. Let them run as fast/jump as high as medicine and training can take them.

Lol, someone debated with me about how athletes are physically harming themselves by the enhancements but was a lover of boxing.:laugh:


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mandylooo

Taking steroids is illegal in the US isn't it? If so, it makes studies of side effects more difficult as people aren't usually that keen to confess they're doing something illegal. It's also unlikely, if it's an illegal activity, that it will be monitored by a physician and isn't being abused at a dangerous level.

Illegal possession of steroids is against the law. It can still be prescribed.

This is a bit anecdotal, and I don't particularly like anecdotes, but there have been plenty of former communist block athletes from the 70s and 80s who have died young from heart attacks and the like.

I don't doubt it, but what needs to be looked at is what the dosage was, what was the cycle like, etc. Abuse of any drug ends up bad.

So, I guess it is up to the individual what they do, but how do they know whether what they're doing is harming them or not?

There have been several peer reviewed studies done on anabolic steroids that have shown that they are safe IF dosage is correct and the patient is monitored. The problem is that many buy them under the table since they are illegal to purchase without prescription and at that point they may be getting a contaminated product.


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All fair points - if they are legal, the culture isn't so hidden. After posting, I checked the legality in the UK and possession for use on your self is OK as far as I can work out, but your point about contamination stands. How many people take steroids appropriately and how many abuse (i.e. push the dose to unsafe levels)? If it gets into the abuse zone, then is it almost getting into ED territory with respect to psychological states: part of the person knows it's unhealthy, but part of them just has to keep going?

With respect to the implants, I've no idea whether the same implants have been used elsewhere in the world. It's an issue that was identified in Europe - doesn't mean it hasn't happened in the US, just that if it has, it hasn't been picked up (yet).