What Dog Owners Do...

PANZERIA

I was one of those that never did much research and went out and picked up a pound puppy. She is great and I have given her a good and loving home. She has survived and thrived 3 years without training besides sit, and stay which common sense can train. However, to make it easier for dog and owner training is definitely necessary. So now we are training with a dog behaviorist to help her become more socialized. She has always been very friendly just spazzy at first. If I did my research first I probably wouldn't have gotten a dog at all. So I am glad I didn't do much research. Now it is about my girl and tweaking her to be comfortable in any situation. after a while of having her I realize at some point training is necessary. But If i had done my research she might already be dead in the kill shelter I got her from. Sometimes being a little untrained is better than being dead. She always has the chance to be trained............but not if she is dead.

I like your story. I love that you tried, and I love that you took the time to teach sit and stay.

The reason I emphasize on research is simply because most people aren't ready for the commitment of a dog and just go on impulse. A dog shouldn't be an impulse by for most people, but hey, if they're responsible enough to teach the basics and take them to the vet, I'm happy. Everyone is different.

PANZERIA

I guess I've just never seen anyone use the prong collars in the right way then.

I've also seen animal cops one too many times and how badly they can hurt the dog if not used right.

All you're supposed to do is a very quick, very light tug on the leash. Nothing with strength or anything that would lift the dog. It's a super quick movement.

Yuck. Never. There are other ways. In the UK I would seriously consider reporting anyone I saw with one of these on their dog - but I never ever have. Perhaps they are illegal here?

Certainly it would be considered abusive and the owner would be challenged by the general public, so perhaps that puts people off.

Who said that "rotties have a high pain threshold" and that's the only way to manage? it's a disgusting comment. Try one on your own neck and see how it feels (Victoria Stilwell actually made some owners do this on her US version of her TV programme, and it cured them...) Well like OP said, do your research and get a nice little chihuahua that you can be a good owner to without cruelty. Or a cat. Or a budgie.

Actually, it really depends on the dog. Some dogs can handle the choke collar, some can't. If it works for her and both her and the dog are comfortable with it, it's really not a problem.

She uses what's called 'negative reinforcement.' If her dog responds to it, then that's what works for her. All three of my dogs use different training methods, anywhere from positive reinforcement training, to negative reinforcement training.

If she's using the pinch collar responsibly, then it's a good tool to use. She's also got her dog in level 3 obedience, so I think they're pretty good in terms of figuring out what works for them and the dog.

Actually, she is using positive punishment, not negative reinforcement. Negative reinforcement is removing something bad when the desired behavior is performed. If she were letting the collar make the correction, then that would be negative reinforcement. The fact that she does a yank, pull, "correction" when the dog misbehaves makes it positive punishment.

I am also a dog trainer and I keep dogs in my home to train them for the owners. These owners obviously care enough about their dogs to spend the money to do this in-home training. They may have screwed up in the past with their dogs, but they want them to be a part of their families and are putting the effort into finding a trainer to help them. Many of them are extremely busy with work and kids and just plain don't have the spare time to take their dogs to classes.

I do follow ups, I offer them deeply discounted boarding if they have to travel and work with their dogs while they are here. I don't judge them for not knowing everything. Heck, I am more than willing to admit that I learn something new every day and understand that not all dogs are the same. I'm not perfect and I don't expect anyone else to be so.

Meh, I keep it simple and call it 'negative reinforcement.'

I'm glad you have the resources to do that. I live in a very poor community and don't have the facility/proper home environment to take dogs in for extended periods of time, so I don't get paid (contrary to popular belief, apparently). All of my in-home training is pro-bono or large lecture settings. I also do most of my work with the local humane society, and I rescue dogs in the area. THAT'S where my frustration comes from - the people who have no clue, are essentially abusing their dogs, and who won't listen to reason.

I then have to go with the police and seize the dogs I tried to help because their owners will NOT listen.

Trail_Addict

However you misread - I'm not referring to pinch or or choke collars, but to prong collars.

I can't see how anyone can justify use of a prong collar - it doesn't even have any natural meaning to a dog as a quick nip from another dog would do as the owner is at the other end of the lead not connecting with the dog in the way another pack member would do.

I'll say this one thing about pieces of training equipment. Anyone who has something bad to say about a piece of equipment hasn't trained enough dogs, or simply doesn't know how to use them properly.

I'm not saying prong collars are required for the average silly Lab or Pit Bull or whatever (they're really not), but there will always be cases out there where hugs-n-kisses, treats, Victoria Stillwell/ Cesar Milan TV psychology simply won't work. When you've exhausted all of those other means to try and make a connection to the dog, you either give up or step it up.

In my line of work, the "only positive" trainers will tell the client to have their dangerous dog euthanized or simply not take the case... or refer the client to another trainer.

The Police call it a "Force Continuum". It simply means starting out with the least amount of force necessary (mere presence being the lowest), and being able to up the ante as required by the situation. Luckily, the vast majority of dogs are easily trained at the lowest level on the continuum, with treats and affection, but when that dog has his wires crossed, you need to be able to up the ante to maintain a level of control.

Trail_Addict

I guess I've just never seen anyone use the prong collars in the right way then.

I've also seen animal cops one too many times and how badly they can hurt the dog if not used right.

All you're supposed to do is a very quick, very light tug on the leash. Nothing with strength or anything that would lift the dog. It's a super quick movement.

Yuck. Never. There are other ways. In the UK I would seriously consider reporting anyone I saw with one of these on their dog - but I never ever have. Perhaps they are illegal here?

Certainly it would be considered abusive and the owner would be challenged by the general public, so perhaps that puts people off.

Who said that "rotties have a high pain threshold" and that's the only way to manage? it's a disgusting comment. Try one on your own neck and see how it feels (Victoria Stilwell actually made some owners do this on her US version of her TV programme, and it cured them...) Well like OP said, do your research and get a nice little chihuahua that you can be a good owner to without cruelty. Or a cat. Or a budgie.

Actually, it really depends on the dog. Some dogs can handle the choke collar, some can't. If it works for her and both her and the dog are comfortable with it, it's really not a problem.

She uses what's called 'negative reinforcement.' If her dog responds to it, then that's what works for her. All three of my dogs use different training methods, anywhere from positive reinforcement training, to negative reinforcement training.

If she's using the pinch collar responsibly, then it's a good tool to use. She's also got her dog in level 3 obedience, so I think they're pretty good in terms of figuring out what works for them and the dog.

Actually, she is using positive punishment, not negative reinforcement. Negative reinforcement is removing something bad when the desired behavior is performed. If she were letting the collar make the correction, then that would be negative reinforcement. The fact that she does a yank, pull, "correction" when the dog misbehaves makes it positive punishment.

I am also a dog trainer and I keep dogs in my home to train them for the owners. These owners obviously care enough about their dogs to spend the money to do this in-home training. They may have screwed up in the past with their dogs, but they want them to be a part of their families and are putting the effort into finding a trainer to help them. Many of them are extremely busy with work and kids and just plain don't have the spare time to take their dogs to classes.

I do follow ups, I offer them deeply discounted boarding if they have to travel and work with their dogs while they are here. I don't judge them for not knowing everything. Heck, I am more than willing to admit that I learn something new every day and understand that not all dogs are the same. I'm not perfect and I don't expect anyone else to be so.

Correction - "Negative Reinforcement" doesn't have to be something "bad". The stimulus can be neutral or even good. Simply removing a dog's toy to get a desired behavior (high drive dogs), and then giving it right back is both Positive AND Negative Reinforcement. (I used this method to fix a piss-poorly trained Malinois I adopted who had insane toy drive, and whose owner had to nearly choke her out to get the toy ...no trust between them). :flowerforyou:

sam363

I guess I've just never seen anyone use the prong collars in the right way then.

I've also seen animal cops one too many times and how badly they can hurt the dog if not used right.

I use a prong collar on my coon hound. I can give her a gentle tug once if she starts pulling on our run/walk and she will immediately return to my side. This is after giving her a voice command and her ignoring it. If I would have her on a regular leash she would pull and misbehave - I have tried several times but once the prong collar is on she is perfect!

Trail_Addict

My girls....All 3 trained with a tug toy, affection, and solid pack leadership. (All 3 trained in Narcotics Detection, SAR, and one on the right also on Human Remains Detection... L = Dutch Shepherd, and 2 on right = Belgian Malinois). The one in the center was adopted at 18months old, and had a reputation for playing dirty (would bite her previous handler to get her toy), and once she got it, he'd have to fight it from her. Solved that problem in one day with a basic psychology. Love my girls

PANZERIA

I guess I've just never seen anyone use the prong collars in the right way then.

I've also seen animal cops one too many times and how badly they can hurt the dog if not used right.

All you're supposed to do is a very quick, very light tug on the leash. Nothing with strength or anything that would lift the dog. It's a super quick movement.

Yuck. Never. There are other ways. In the UK I would seriously consider reporting anyone I saw with one of these on their dog - but I never ever have. Perhaps they are illegal here?

Certainly it would be considered abusive and the owner would be challenged by the general public, so perhaps that puts people off.

Who said that "rotties have a high pain threshold" and that's the only way to manage? it's a disgusting comment. Try one on your own neck and see how it feels (Victoria Stilwell actually made some owners do this on her US version of her TV programme, and it cured them...) Well like OP said, do your research and get a nice little chihuahua that you can be a good owner to without cruelty. Or a cat. Or a budgie.

Actually, it really depends on the dog. Some dogs can handle the choke collar, some can't. If it works for her and both her and the dog are comfortable with it, it's really not a problem.

She uses what's called 'negative reinforcement.' If her dog responds to it, then that's what works for her. All three of my dogs use different training methods, anywhere from positive reinforcement training, to negative reinforcement training.

If she's using the pinch collar responsibly, then it's a good tool to use. She's also got her dog in level 3 obedience, so I think they're pretty good in terms of figuring out what works for them and the dog.

Actually, she is using positive punishment, not negative reinforcement. Negative reinforcement is removing something bad when the desired behavior is performed. If she were letting the collar make the correction, then that would be negative reinforcement. The fact that she does a yank, pull, "correction" when the dog misbehaves makes it positive punishment.

I am also a dog trainer and I keep dogs in my home to train them for the owners. These owners obviously care enough about their dogs to spend the money to do this in-home training. They may have screwed up in the past with their dogs, but they want them to be a part of their families and are putting the effort into finding a trainer to help them. Many of them are extremely busy with work and kids and just plain don't have the spare time to take their dogs to classes.

I do follow ups, I offer them deeply discounted boarding if they have to travel and work with their dogs while they are here. I don't judge them for not knowing everything. Heck, I am more than willing to admit that I learn something new every day and understand that not all dogs are the same. I'm not perfect and I don't expect anyone else to be so.

Correction - "Negative Reinforcement" doesn't have to be something "bad". The stimulus can be neutral or even good. Simply removing a dog's toy to get a desired behavior (high drive dogs), and then giving it right back is both Positive AND Negative Reinforcement. (I used this method to fix a piss-poorly trained Malinois I adopted who had insane toy drive, and whose owner had to nearly choke her out to get the toy ...no trust between them). :flowerforyou:

Ah! Well then we're talking about the exact same thing, lol.

I always find it's just easier calling simple leash corrections 'negative reinforcement,' but hey, I guess my terminology is a little off, lol.

Kany

I have 2 dogs, a bull terrier and a chihuahua. I do not like the idea of using prong or any kind of choke collars. My dogs are great walking/running companions and I wouldn't subject them to any kind of choke collar.

PANZERIA

My girls....All 3 trained with a tug toy, affection, and solid pack leadership. (All 3 trained in Narcotics Detection, SAR, and one on the right also on Human Remains Detection... L = Dutch Shepherd, and 2 on right = Belgian Malinois). The one in the center was adopted at 18months old, and had a reputation for playing dirty (would bite her previous handler to get her toy), and once she got it, he'd have to fight it from her. Solved that problem in one day with a basic psychology. Love my girls

OMG THEY'RE SO PRETTY!!!!!!! =D :flowerforyou:

PANZERIA

I have 2 dogs, a bull terrier and a chihuahua. I do not like the idea of using prong or any kind of choke collars. My dogs are great walking/running companions and I wouldn't subject them to any kind of choke collar.

I'm glad your dogs walk/run well! Some dogs work well with the choke collar, though. Depends on the dog.

Trail_Addict

I guess I've just never seen anyone use the prong collars in the right way then.

I've also seen animal cops one too many times and how badly they can hurt the dog if not used right.

All you're supposed to do is a very quick, very light tug on the leash. Nothing with strength or anything that would lift the dog. It's a super quick movement.

Yuck. Never. There are other ways. In the UK I would seriously consider reporting anyone I saw with one of these on their dog - but I never ever have. Perhaps they are illegal here?

Certainly it would be considered abusive and the owner would be challenged by the general public, so perhaps that puts people off.

Who said that "rotties have a high pain threshold" and that's the only way to manage? it's a disgusting comment. Try one on your own neck and see how it feels (Victoria Stilwell actually made some owners do this on her US version of her TV programme, and it cured them...) Well like OP said, do your research and get a nice little chihuahua that you can be a good owner to without cruelty. Or a cat. Or a budgie.

Actually, it really depends on the dog. Some dogs can handle the choke collar, some can't. If it works for her and both her and the dog are comfortable with it, it's really not a problem.

She uses what's called 'negative reinforcement.' If her dog responds to it, then that's what works for her. All three of my dogs use different training methods, anywhere from positive reinforcement training, to negative reinforcement training.

If she's using the pinch collar responsibly, then it's a good tool to use. She's also got her dog in level 3 obedience, so I think they're pretty good in terms of figuring out what works for them and the dog.

Actually, she is using positive punishment, not negative reinforcement. Negative reinforcement is removing something bad when the desired behavior is performed. If she were letting the collar make the correction, then that would be negative reinforcement. The fact that she does a yank, pull, "correction" when the dog misbehaves makes it positive punishment.

I am also a dog trainer and I keep dogs in my home to train them for the owners. These owners obviously care enough about their dogs to spend the money to do this in-home training. They may have screwed up in the past with their dogs, but they want them to be a part of their families and are putting the effort into finding a trainer to help them. Many of them are extremely busy with work and kids and just plain don't have the spare time to take their dogs to classes.

I do follow ups, I offer them deeply discounted boarding if they have to travel and work with their dogs while they are here. I don't judge them for not knowing everything. Heck, I am more than willing to admit that I learn something new every day and understand that not all dogs are the same. I'm not perfect and I don't expect anyone else to be so.

Correction - "Negative Reinforcement" doesn't have to be something "bad". The stimulus can be neutral or even good. Simply removing a dog's toy to get a desired behavior (high drive dogs), and then giving it right back is both Positive AND Negative Reinforcement. (I used this method to fix a piss-poorly trained Malinois I adopted who had insane toy drive, and whose owner had to nearly choke her out to get the toy ...no trust between them). :flowerforyou:

Ah! Well then we're talking about the exact same thing, lol.

I always find it's just easier calling simple leash corrections 'negative reinforcement,' but hey, I guess my terminology is a little off, lol.

Positive = to add a stimulus to the situation
Negative = to remove a stimulus
Punishment = to stop an undesirable behavior
Reinforcement = to encourage a certain behavior.

Negative and positive don't mean "good"/ "bad" when we're talking about behavior training. :flowerforyou:

Myndi73

While I appreciate this and understand it; please remember no one is a perfect pet owner/parent just as there no perfect parents to humans. We all make mistakes, we all get frustrated but if we are presented with PATIENT AND UNDERSTANDING, trained people when seeking help we can get a lot further. Research can only get you so far. No 2 dogs of the same breed are exactly alike. You can read all you want; doesn't mean you have knowledge.

^^^^This!

Susabelle64

My girls....All 3 trained with a tug toy, affection, and solid pack leadership. (All 3 trained in Narcotics Detection, SAR, and one on the right also on Human Remains Detection... L = Dutch Shepherd, and 2 on right = Belgian Malinois). The one in the center was adopted at 18months old, and had a reputation for playing dirty (would bite her previous handler to get her toy), and once she got it, he'd have to fight it from her. Solved that problem in one day with a basic psychology. Love my girls

Beautiful dogs, congratulations. Curious, did you use the "trade game" to break her of her bad habit of not releasing?

MissLuana

I have 3 dogs. 2 of them are getting up there in age and both have arthritis so walking them is getting rough on them.

My youngin' is a pit. I don't even use a regular collar. I use a harness. I had issues walking him, pulling on his collar only choked him. Why the hell would I want to choke my dog??? As soon as I got a harness, my issues with walking him were gone.

Those poky/spikey collars piss me off.

I am a firm believer that the stigma with pits is BS. It's all in how you raise them. Mine is the equivalent of scooby doo. A big dumb cuddely loveable bear!

Ditto...I too have pits, 2 to be exact. They are great dogs. Very strong willed though. You have to know you're the alpha or they will do what they want. But that's with any and all things, people, animals, plants, on and on. Once I purchased the harnass for mine, the walks became much better. Now if I can just get my female to quit stepping on my feet out of happiness...LOL

hbrittingham

I guess I've just never seen anyone use the prong collars in the right way then.

I've also seen animal cops one too many times and how badly they can hurt the dog if not used right.

All you're supposed to do is a very quick, very light tug on the leash. Nothing with strength or anything that would lift the dog. It's a super quick movement.

Yuck. Never. There are other ways. In the UK I would seriously consider reporting anyone I saw with one of these on their dog - but I never ever have. Perhaps they are illegal here?

Certainly it would be considered abusive and the owner would be challenged by the general public, so perhaps that puts people off.

Who said that "rotties have a high pain threshold" and that's the only way to manage? it's a disgusting comment. Try one on your own neck and see how it feels (Victoria Stilwell actually made some owners do this on her US version of her TV programme, and it cured them...) Well like OP said, do your research and get a nice little chihuahua that you can be a good owner to without cruelty. Or a cat. Or a budgie.

Actually, it really depends on the dog. Some dogs can handle the choke collar, some can't. If it works for her and both her and the dog are comfortable with it, it's really not a problem.

She uses what's called 'negative reinforcement.' If her dog responds to it, then that's what works for her. All three of my dogs use different training methods, anywhere from positive reinforcement training, to negative reinforcement training.

If she's using the pinch collar responsibly, then it's a good tool to use. She's also got her dog in level 3 obedience, so I think they're pretty good in terms of figuring out what works for them and the dog.

Actually, she is using positive punishment, not negative reinforcement. Negative reinforcement is removing something bad when the desired behavior is performed. If she were letting the collar make the correction, then that would be negative reinforcement. The fact that she does a yank, pull, "correction" when the dog misbehaves makes it positive punishment.

I am also a dog trainer and I keep dogs in my home to train them for the owners. These owners obviously care enough about their dogs to spend the money to do this in-home training. They may have screwed up in the past with their dogs, but they want them to be a part of their families and are putting the effort into finding a trainer to help them. Many of them are extremely busy with work and kids and just plain don't have the spare time to take their dogs to classes.

I do follow ups, I offer them deeply discounted boarding if they have to travel and work with their dogs while they are here. I don't judge them for not knowing everything. Heck, I am more than willing to admit that I learn something new every day and understand that not all dogs are the same. I'm not perfect and I don't expect anyone else to be so.

Correction - "Negative Reinforcement" doesn't have to be something "bad". The stimulus can be neutral or even good. Simply removing a dog's toy to get a desired behavior (high drive dogs), and then giving it right back is both Positive AND Negative Reinforcement. (I used this method to fix a piss-poorly trained Malinois I adopted who had insane toy drive, and whose owner had to nearly choke her out to get the toy ...no trust between them). :flowerforyou:

Not to be nitpicky (though I am), the way to define negative reinforcement is " In negative reinforcement, a response or behavior is strengthened by stopping, removing or avoiding a negative outcome or aversive stimulus.

Negative punishment is removing something good when a dog is exhibiting a behavior you want them to stop, i.e., if your puppy is jumping on you, you leave the room. If your dog is biting at your clothes out of excitement, you leave the room.

I do agree with you that positive reinforcement is giving something desirable to the dog to reward the behavior.

I've done a lot of research on operant behavior and find it fascinating and effective when it comes to training dogs.

TheFunBun

Prong collars and pinch collars are the same thing.

I use them on 2/4 of my dogs for corrections, and frankly have worn them myself and am UNPHASED. Heheh. Really, it feels like a pinch. I find them great for my scenthounds because they have no real interest in heeling. I don't use a choke collar because I've seen what they do to their anatomy in dog autopsies. I don't use a gentle lead because I've heard way too many stories about people trained properly in their use STILL hurting the necks of particularly spirited dogs. My foxhound is especially spirited. I use a pinch/prong collar because I can give them sharp corrections, fix the problem, and not have to worry about correcting them often at all. I personally haven't found the same thing with choke collars sand large dogs... The 2 dogs that don't require anything are the teensie chihuahua that wouldn't stray from my mother if it could and my rottweiler, who is timid and responds well to "No" and positive reinforcement.

I will say, I haven't figured out how to convince my rotti that stepping on my feet is rude. I've tried stepping on her feet, and she even goes about it very slowly.. and she's very submissive, so I've no clue where it's coming from. Are my feet just too big?

One thing I've really erred at is sending them to their house if they've done something bad and are not wearing a collar. They love their crates and have no problem staying in them especially if they got a chance to eat some particularly tasty catpoo right before. Obviously, eliminating the temptation is the best idea- (what trade can I offer that's better than cat poo?) but it's just impossible in our current home.

Ahhh. Anyways. I feel like if I nipped that problem in the bud I wouldn't be dealing with it so much these days. And I'm a well informed pet owner.. so... even we can suck.

Susabelle64

One thing I've really erred at is sending them to their house if they've done something bad and are not wearing a collar. They love their crates and have no problem staying in them especially if they got a chance to eat some particularly tasty catpoo right before. Obviously, eliminating the temptation is the best idea- (what trade can I offer that's better than cat poo?) but it's just impossible in our current home.

Possible solution to Kitty poo......I used to have this issue too. So I put a kitty door in a closet and put the litter box in that closet. The kitty door was too little to let my dog in, the cats could do their business in peace, and I no longer had to battle the kitty roca problems.....

Edited for spelling

Bmontgomery613

try a gentle lead- its similar to a horse harness it controls the head with out being like a muzzle

We have this and it works wonders! My 8 year old can walk both of our Labradors at the same time with it. It's kind of funny to watch people's faces when they see this little girl walking these two big dogs. I love it! We tried other collars (choke, prong, harness) and none of them curbed her pulling. As soon as we put the gentle leader on our older lab (she was the only one we had at the time), she became a completely different dog on our walks. The pulling and the jerking stopped. It was pleasant to walk her.

Anyway, sorry for the detour. I understand your point. But, also, none of us are perfect. I'm sure I do things with my labs that seem uneducated and ignorant. But, they're part of our family and have to take the bad with the good just like we do with them.

TheFunBun

Possible solution to Kitty poo......I used to have this issue too. So I put a kitty door in a closet and put the litter box in that closet. The kitty door was too little to let my dog in, the cats could do their business in peace, and I no longer had to battle the kitty roca problems.....

That's a pretty good idea. In fact, I could just get a few gates with cat doors, too. It would be cheaper and solve the litterbox problem. In fact, I feel a little extra foolish for not thinking of it.

quixoteQ

If these sort of questions make you crazy, maybe you should get into a new line of work. I appreciate that people should research their dogs before they get them (having 2 jack russels- I am a firm believer in research first) but I don't go to my doctor thinking I know more that her or tell the personal trainer at the gym that I know how to do all the right exercises to do to make me thin. I go to these people and ASK QUESTIONS- maybe even stupid ones to them but they are the expert, not me. At least these people are asking so you can educate them. I am happy that people are taking dogs into their home and loving them or at least trying to find a better way to take care of them.

Maybe I should get into a new line of work, eh? Or maybe! just maybe! people could actually do their homework BEFORE picking up fluffy from the local pet store, and turning that cute little fuzzball into a biting, child-mauling nightmare.

I love doing basic obedience with people and I ADORE helping people who want to be helped. People come up to me in the street and ask me questions, and I have no problem taking ten minutes out of my day to explain a training technique to them.

It's the people who ask for my help, then turn around and get 'lazy' and stop the training (to the detriment of the dog) that pisses me off. To be honest, I don't do my job for the people - I do it for the dog. I love seeing people having a bond with the animal, but people UNDERSTAND the bond. Animals don't understand language, so they can't be TOLD what not to do. They have to be shown, and people who essentially say "...Well, Fluffy, it's been fun, but you're now two years old and you bite too much. I don't like it. Off to the humane society with you!" are the absolute worst.

Sure, they can claim ignorance...but when you influence an intelligent, sensitive life who can NOT understand why you're abandoning him at the shelter when he/she has done everything you've asked, THEN I have a problem.

Honestly you don't sound like the sort of person who wants to teach people. If they knew how to handle their dogs, why would they bring them to you anyway? Get a grip - and maybe read your job description.