Meat eating vs. Vegan debate
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If I liked more veggies I would consider being a vegetarian as I dont like a lot of meat either....carbs are my weakness
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The only LOGICAL conclusion to hunting is dinner.
I often wondered what people like you would think and do if the earth were actually invaded by aliens who hunted and ate humans. Would your arguments be the same? If not why would they be different. Explain why us hunting animals is good but creatures who are more powerful than us eating us is bad. I'd really like to hear this.
Why don't we spin this another way, then. The same scenario - what would YOU do if something was hostile and trying to eat you? I feel that it is the circle of life. One thing is eaten by another thing, is eaten by bigger thing... Deer don't want to be eaten by us as we don't want to be eaten by sharks. But that's how a food chain goes.
So you would accept it? You wouldn't see ANYTHING unjust about it or unfair. You would just shrug your shoulders while you watched your family get killed and eaten? Assuming you could talk to them you wouldn't try to convince them that what they were doing was immoral?
Going against your own human kind, yes immoral. Eating food, no its not immoral and if you like it or not some animals are just that, they are food. That's why some animals are prey, and some aren't.0 -
This gets thrown at vegetarians a lot and simply isn't true. Vegetarian meals were a medical prescription of the time, and while Hitler did reduce his meat consumption he never stopped eating meat. His favorite meats were sausages and roast squab.
Some historians incorrectly decided that Hitler was a vegetarian, and people have been using this myth ever since as an easy bash against vegetarians.
Even if it were true, so what? Hitler also loved his dogs. Does that make anyone who owns a pet dog just like Hitler? Oh hell, I've got 3 dogs. I'm 3x as bad as Hitler
Hitler was mostly vegetarian not for any ethical reasons but for medical reasons. He got quite ill when he ate meat. Poor baby.
Well Hilter wasn't the only one mentioned so..................................
So .... what, exactly?
Are you trying to say that vegans and vegetarians are inherently evil because some famously bad people didn't eat meat? Because that's the only conclusion I can gather from all this.
This is a very silly argument that is proving absolutely nothing.
Proves that what you eat has nothing to do with someone's propensity to kill. Which by most is a very basic thing. But to one person here, it must be a truth difficult to fathom0 -
My view is more of a religious one. The good Lord created the earth and all manner of creatures in it. He placed man upon earth and gave man dominion over all creatures. This, to me, says that the Lord made animals to nourish and sustain man. Not eating meat goes against God's plan.
Is that what dominion over the creatures means? If you babysit for my kids, you have dominion over my kids. Does that mean you can eat them?0 -
I don't care what people eat - I just hate the smell of Patchouli0
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My view is more of a religious one. The good Lord created the earth and all manner of creatures in it. He placed man upon earth and gave man dominion over all creatures. This, to me, says that the Lord made animals to nourish and sustain man. Not eating meat goes against God's plan.
Is that what dominion over the creatures means? If you babysit for my kids, you have dominion over my kids. Does that mean you can eat them?
Wow, that argument for a counterpoint is so far off. LMAO0 -
This gets thrown at vegetarians a lot and simply isn't true. Vegetarian meals were a medical prescription of the time, and while Hitler did reduce his meat consumption he never stopped eating meat. His favorite meats were sausages and roast squab.
Some historians incorrectly decided that Hitler was a vegetarian, and people have been using this myth ever since as an easy bash against vegetarians.
Even if it were true, so what? Hitler also loved his dogs. Does that make anyone who owns a pet dog just like Hitler? Oh hell, I've got 3 dogs. I'm 3x as bad as Hitler
Hitler was mostly vegetarian not for any ethical reasons but for medical reasons. He got quite ill when he ate meat. Poor baby.
Well Hilter wasn't the only one mentioned so..................................
So .... what, exactly?
Are you trying to say that vegans and vegetarians are inherently evil because some famously bad people didn't eat meat? Because that's the only conclusion I can gather from all this.
This is a very silly argument that is proving absolutely nothing.
Proves that what you eat has nothing to do with someone's propensity to kill. Which by most is a very basic thing. But to one person here, it must be a truth difficult to fathom
Yes, true. I'm just trying to stop arguments before they get nasty. As I really wanted this thread to remain informative and not based on 'i'm right and your wrong' attitudes.0 -
My view is more of a religious one. The good Lord created the earth and all manner of creatures in it. He placed man upon earth and gave man dominion over all creatures. This, to me, says that the Lord made animals to nourish and sustain man. Not eating meat goes against God's plan.
Is that what dominion over the creatures means? If you babysit for my kids, you have dominion over my kids. Does that mean you can eat them?
Wow, that argument for a counterpoint is so far off. LMAO
So are some people's understanding of Genesis.0 -
I also find myself wondering whether any vegans have insect phobias. And therefore stomp on a spider when it runs across the room.
They shouldn't (though I do if my husband is not home to do a catch and release, but then I'm not vegan). Spiders are very beneficial to a garden.
I stomp on bugs that are dangerous, or that can spread disease to humans. I killed a fly in the kitchen not 15 minutes ago. I mostly leave spiders alone since they hunt other bugs. I don't feel that compromises my vegetarianism.
Sorry, I can't remember if you described yourself as vegetarian or vegan earlier? (No, that was not sarcasm, I'm genuinely asking). Just because I don't want to criticise you for 'harming other living creatures' as a vegan would argue against.
I've been a long time vegetarian, and have been switching to vegan, but there are a few foods that I haven't gotten rid of that contain some dairy. So while I think of myself as vegan, I'm not 100%, though I'll get there some day.
Killing bugs is actually something I struggle with. I don't like doing it, and avoid it if possible, but I still put my health above an insects. I'd have no qualms at all about exterminating a yellow jacket nest outside my kitchen door (stepped on a nest once, was not fun), and if I can't shoo a fly out of the house, I'll eventually smack it.0 -
I am actually pretty impressed with how civil this discussion has been so far. My contribution: I strongly believe in eating a diet similar to what hunter-gatherer societies ate sucessfully for so many thousands of years: mostly things from the ground and meat whenever they were lucky enough to find or kill it. So I like to keep my meat consumption to about 3 times per week. And I prefer to eat animals that were healthy before they made it to my belly.
I am lucky to be able to stock my freezer with venison provided by the hunters in my family and lucky to live in a city (Portland, OR) where it is easy to find less-bred meats like elk, wild boar, buffalo, etc. But there are other ways to get better meats, too, like finding a farm that sells free range chicken or turkey or grass fed and finished beef. So I find it a bit diffucult and tiresome to answer the question, "Are you a vegitarian?" any time I turn down factory-raised beef or chicken or pork. I don't want to put "food" in my body if it comes from an animal that was about to die from heart disease (corn-finished cows) or couldn't fly (breast-enlarged chickens.) I have the most trouble when I am with people who think the American diet, in which every meal is built around meat, is normal. So I wish the debate were less about carnivore vs veg/vegan and more about a truly well-balanced diet with a variety of good protien sources like quinoa and legumes with or without meat added in. I like to sum it up with Michael Pollan's tag line to _In Defense of Food_: "Eat [real] food, not too much, mostly plants," which allows for a much more nuanced discussion of food ethics and healthy eating. 0 -
again you are equating people who hunt = serial killers. While there may have been some people who are serial killers that liked to hunt, just because one HUNTS does not make them a serial killer with no feelings.
Serial killers are people who have no sense of right or wrong, who do not care if they are hurting others. Hunters, people who respect the sport and respect animals do not go out to make animals suffer, to torture them and scare them.
Stop perpetuating the misconceptions that people who hunt are these barbaric soulless people.
Oh, I see. I misunderstood. Hunters are actually sensitive men and women who care about causing pain to others. Right! If you believe that, I've got some Enron stock to sell you.
Pretty sure that A. You have never been hunting and B. Don't really know anyone that is a hunter.
Seeing as I have gone hunting, and I know what kind of person I am on the inside and my thoughts and feeling towards others, and the fact that I am a sensitive person, and *gasp* am not a serial killer- I can just sit here and say you are full of *kitten* and can't accept the fact that not everyone in the world plays into the stereotype you have made into your head.
I also know that arguing with you any further about this is about as constructive as me bashing my head into a brick wall.
I know plenty of hunters. They are weak insecure individuals who usually are in the lowest class of society. (Yeah, I know, politicians all hunt, but they only do that to get votes.) They have the least education, the lowest paid jobs, and generally are embarassed to be in the same company with middle and upper class people, who they don't understand. Yeah, there are excpetions, but 90% fall into that mold. And yes, I really did grow up in a family of hunters, but as much as my father wanted me to hunt, even as a little boy, I refused. I had no desire to kill, and I actually liked animals. And yes, practically all the men in my family were hunters and boozers. I went to our local rod and gun club with my father (I didn't mind target shooting) and since it was a private club, they could serve liquor on Sunday. That was the big attraction. That and the fact that people who were afraiid to be among educated people could drink and have fun with their peers.
Wow. Could you possibly be any more self righteous?0 -
This gets thrown at vegetarians a lot and simply isn't true. Vegetarian meals were a medical prescription of the time, and while Hitler did reduce his meat consumption he never stopped eating meat. His favorite meats were sausages and roast squab.
Some historians incorrectly decided that Hitler was a vegetarian, and people have been using this myth ever since as an easy bash against vegetarians.
Even if it were true, so what? Hitler also loved his dogs. Does that make anyone who owns a pet dog just like Hitler? Oh hell, I've got 3 dogs. I'm 3x as bad as Hitler
Hitler was mostly vegetarian not for any ethical reasons but for medical reasons. He got quite ill when he ate meat. Poor baby.
Well Hilter wasn't the only one mentioned so..................................
So .... what, exactly?
Are you trying to say that vegans and vegetarians are inherently evil because some famously bad people didn't eat meat? Because that's the only conclusion I can gather from all this.
No, but a poster was claiming how people who hunt are bad by using an example of a serial killer who tortured animals first. The poster also stated that vegans are more virtuous. We're are just showing if that's the person's argument for what is considered virtuous that the cards don't stack up in any favor to vegetarians as well when it comes to horrible people.0 -
So you would accept it? You wouldn't see ANYTHING unjust about it or unfair. You would just shrug your shoulders while you watched your family get killed and eaten? Assuming you could talk to them you wouldn't try to convince them that what they were doing was immoral?
I've never had Bambi come up to me and ask me not to shoot his father. Nor have I seen thumper crying himself to sleep at night when I ate one of his brothers or sisters. Either I am remarkably unobservant or some people are just remarkably adept at giving human emotions and feelings to animals that don't actually experience such feelings and emotions.
And assuming the prior scenario, I would probably be more inclined to kill whatever was attacking my family than try to talk to them about it. Ever seen the way a mother bear will instinctively protect her cubs? They don't try to talk you out of it, they use their claws and teeth to do the talking, and I'd use any weapons at my disposal to do the same thing if somebody or something were trying to make myself or my family their dinner.
ETA: Everything has to kill something to survive. Choosing to only kill plants doesn't make you more ethical than the fact that I also chose to kill animals for my sustenance.0 -
My view is more of a religious one. The good Lord created the earth and all manner of creatures in it. He placed man upon earth and gave man dominion over all creatures. This, to me, says that the Lord made animals to nourish and sustain man. Not eating meat goes against God's plan.
Is that what dominion over the creatures means? If you babysit for my kids, you have dominion over my kids. Does that mean you can eat them?
Wow, that argument for a counterpoint is so far off. LMAO
Now i'm going to sound like a *kitten* - this is one of the 'things vegetarians say' that really makes me laugh. When you enter things like 'choice' of food into an argument - they like to bring in completely unrelated and radical arguments. Like when I previously (not on this thread) mentioned the choice of what you eat, a vegan came back with 'Well, if choice is ok, then is it ok for a paedophile to CHOSE to rape small children? Is that ok, because it's his choice?' I had to roll my eyes at such ridiculous examples.0 -
I think there is science on each side that is used to argue each case. However, I do think morally there is a part of eating meat that meat-eaters feel slightly defensive about. EVERY time by family and friends that I have been asked WHY VEGAN? And I explained why I, me myself personally, choose not to eat meat--- I always find that they get really defensive. I dont ever say anything about their choice just why its not right for me. So I do think there is truth in meat eaters often being a bit defensive and maybe a bit of a guilty concience to be reminded that we slaughter an animal... an animal that could be our domesticated pet... or something someone might have feelings or or could feel for emotionally. BUT does it make it right or wrong? I think its wrong to eat meat... but I do respect free choice and I do respect people who dont argue the case defensively but rather on why they do. It might be as simple as "I just grew up eating meat and I just like it. it's a part of my diet and always has been. I don't really think about the morality of it." And if thats the case... at least its an honest answer and not "YOU ARE GOING TO DIE EATING PLANT FOODS." Truth is... I really do believe we are, or have been evolved to be omnivores. We could survive on either side of the dial... with health risks on both sides. What we should really be concerned about is rather the food industry and how they are poisoning us with horomones and chemicals and fake byproducts. THATS the bigger issue in my opinion.0
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I am actually pretty impressed with how civil this discussion has been so far. My contribution: I strongly believe in eating a diet similar to what hunter-gatherer societies ate sucessfully for so many thousands of years: mostly things from the ground and meat whenever they were lucky enough to find or kill it. So I like to keep my meat consumption to about 3 times per week. And I prefer to eat animals that were healthy before they made it to my belly. I am lucky to be able to stock my freezer with venison provided by the hunters in my family and lucky to live in a city (Portland, OR) where it is easy to find less-bred meats like elk, wild boar, buffalo, etc. But there are other ways to get better meats, too, like finding a farm that sells free range chicken or turkey or grass fed and finished beef. So I find it a bit diffucult and tiresome to answer the question, "Are you a vegitarian?" any time I turn down factory-raised beef or chicken or pork. I don't want to put "food" in my body if it comes from an animal that was about to die from heart disease (corn-finished cows) or couldn't fly (breast-enlarged chickens.) I have the most trouble when I am with people who think the American diet, in which every meal is built around meat, is normal. So I wish the debate were less about carnivore vs veg/vegan and more about a truly well-balanced diet with a variety of good protien sources like quinoa and legumes with or without meat added in. I like to sum it up with Michael Pollan's tag line to _In Defense of Food_: "Eat [real] food, not too much, mostly plants," which allows for a much more nuanced discussion of food ethics and healthy eating.
I've heard wild elk meat is pretty nutritious.0 -
My view is more of a religious one. The good Lord created the earth and all manner of creatures in it. He placed man upon earth and gave man dominion over all creatures. This, to me, says that the Lord made animals to nourish and sustain man. Not eating meat goes against God's plan.
Is that what dominion over the creatures means? If you babysit for my kids, you have dominion over my kids. Does that mean you can eat them?
Dominion can also involve stewardship, care and kindness. You can actually choose to be a benevolent 'king' to animals, if that's the way you see the world. My world view is one where humans with their superior intellect can choose to be compassionate, and not cause more suffering than is necessary. For me, I can live well on plants, and the net suffering is less, so that solution causes me the least self-doubt.0 -
I also find myself wondering whether any vegans have insect phobias. And therefore stomp on a spider when it runs across the room.
They shouldn't (though I do if my husband is not home to do a catch and release, but then I'm not vegan). Spiders are very beneficial to a garden.
I stomp on bugs that are dangerous, or that can spread disease to humans. I killed a fly in the kitchen not 15 minutes ago. I mostly leave spiders alone since they hunt other bugs. I don't feel that compromises my vegetarianism.
Sorry, I can't remember if you described yourself as vegetarian or vegan earlier? (No, that was not sarcasm, I'm genuinely asking). Just because I don't want to criticise you for 'harming other living creatures' as a vegan would argue against.
I've been a long time vegetarian, and have been switching to vegan, but there are a few foods that I haven't gotten rid of that contain some dairy. So while I think of myself as vegan, I'm not 100%, though I'll get there some day.
Killing bugs is actually something I struggle with. I don't like doing it, and avoid it if possible, but I still put my health above an insects. I'd have no qualms at all about exterminating a yellow jacket nest outside my kitchen door (stepped on a nest once, was not fun), and if I can't shoo a fly out of the house, I'll eventually smack it.
Maybe this closely runs into the ethics of 'vegans eating plants'? Because we could rightly argue that you are YOURSELF killing insects, just because you put your health above theirs etc. etc. blah blah blah. I wonder where we draw the line, really.0 -
Hey where does it stop as far as animals? What about all the microorganisms you eat when you eat veggies or kill when cleaning them?
Since someone is taking the discussion out to ridiculous tangents, I might as well go there.0 -
I am actually pretty impressed with how civil this discussion has been so far. My contribution: I strongly believe in eating a diet similar to what hunter-gatherer societies ate sucessfully for so many thousands of years: mostly things from the ground and meat whenever they were lucky enough to find or kill it. So I like to keep my meat consumption to about 3 times per week. And I prefer to eat animals that were healthy before they made it to my belly. I am lucky to be able to stock my freezer with venison provided by the hunters in my family and lucky to live in a city (Portland, OR) where it is easy to find less-bred meats like elk, wild boar, buffalo, etc. But there are other ways to get better meats, too, like finding a farm that sells free range chicken or turkey or grass fed and finished beef. So I find it a bit diffucult and tiresome to answer the question, "Are you a vegitarian?" any time I turn down factory-raised beef or chicken or pork. I don't want to put "food" in my body if it comes from an animal that was about to die from heart disease (corn-finished cows) or couldn't fly (breast-enlarged chickens.) I have the most trouble when I am with people who think the American diet, in which every meal is built around meat, is normal. So I wish the debate were less about carnivore vs veg/vegan and more about a truly well-balanced diet with a variety of good protien sources like quinoa and legumes with or without meat added in. I like to sum it up with Michael Pollan's tag line to _In Defense of Food_: "Eat [real] food, not too much, mostly plants," which allows for a much more nuanced discussion of food ethics and healthy eating.
Oh! I'm trying to remember where that quote came from. Was it the 'Food Rules' book? Because that was brilliant. And, yes, although this should probably be about how to balance a diet, I named it as it is due to my recent encounter with some vegans. Thanks for bringing the topic back into the right direction though.0
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