Meat eating vs. Vegan debate
Replies
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Paragraph 1: For a lot of people, private medical care isn't an option so we have to make do with the NHS. Sometimes organs are in short supply, but in no other case are operations denied. Sometimes delayed because of scheduling a surgeon, but not denied. COSMETIC procedures cannot be undertaken on the NHS.
Quoting has got messed up, but anyway; those with private health insurance will still recieve a better standard of care as and when they want it, so I don't really see how you can be opposed to the idea. Insurance is only NECESSARY in the US at all because no national health service existed in the first place, so it's introduction means future generations will not be required to have it at all.
'Obamacare' was passed because everyone should be entitled to health care when they're ill, regardless of their social standing.I am vegetarian, my opinion. You wanna eat meat? eat meat. You wanna be vegan? Be vegan. Not eating meat isnt going to 'save' animals nor will it make a dent enough for the industry to care. Dont force your personal beliefs on the other people because they eat something you dont.
I have been vegetarian since I was a little kid and am comfortable being vegetarian! This is my choice and no one elses.
/rant.
Your opinion. I don't discriminate by social class, but anyone who makes good lifestyle choices should be granted frist choice of care, if and when they need it. People who make bad choices don't deserved the same level of care since they probably caused the problem themselves.
Not eating meat does save animals and does save the environment. Read John Robbins or Francis Moore-Lappe. Eating meat also increases health costs. Why do you think Obamacare got passed? I am 69 and have, by necessity, been on Medicare for four years. Other than routine physicals, I have not used it once, nonetheless, I am forced to buy insurance I don't want or need, and I have forced deductions to pay for medicare. If I could get back all the money I paid into the medicare system in exchange for agreeing to take care of my own health bills, I would grab that in a second. Quite frankly, I am sick of paying for other peoples' bad choices. Smokers, meat-eaters, drug users should have their own health plans and pay for those plans themselves. The rest of us should be in a separate group.
Please consider this; for someone with my dietary requirements due to my lifestyle, size and gender, eating enough vegetable matter and of the right, very obscure and hard to obtain foods (at least here in the UK) to fulfill my calorific requirements whilst not overloading on carbohydrates to achieve my required protein intake would mean I have to eat an incredibly large amount of food which is neither practical, nor in my case, affordable.
Also this; the nutritional density of a cow is far greater than that of what you could plant on the surface area of ground it is covering. To provide enough vegetable matter to feed an entire meatless population would require a lot more ground clearance, tree felling, nesting bird and burrowing animal disturbance and in the end would leave great swathes of the world as flat farmland unsuitable for wildlife. Further to this, more crops would mean more pesticides etc, which would further exacerbate problems with water contamination.
Also, please stop lumping meat eating with smoking and drug abuse. Meat isn't an addictive narcotic substance with no health benefit, but instead a staple of the human diet for many thousands of years, with a high nutritional, caloric and protein density. One reason I cannot take you seriously is that you seem to value yourself so highly compared to other people, because they have a different choice of diet. Some humility would go a long way, as it's people like you that portray the very negative stereotypes assosciated with vegan culture.
Wow! First of all, I've been to the UK and I know that most of what you are on about is simply not true. Let's take the items one at a time.
Health care. I lived in France for three years where they also have socialized medicine. Like the UK, you can get decent health care - if you go to a private clinic or come to a country like the US. Health care in most of Euorpe is rationed. There is a "Board" that decides whether or not you get certain life saving procedures. That is certainly understandable if it is a case of scarce resources, like, e.g. a liver transplant and there aren't enough livers. But it goes beyond that. When procedures are too expensive they can be denied. No, I do not know this from personal experience, but I have been told this by many people I know from the UK and France.
Next, you seem to be claiming that someone of your "lifestyle, size and gender" cannot possibly get enough vegetarian food. This is a really bizarre statement, since, as I say, I have been to the UK and EVERYTHING costs about three times what it costs here. Veggies may be more expensive, but so is meat. Sorry, but without further explanation of what is so important about you "lifestyle, size and gender" i have to dismiss this as rubbish.
Finally, you statement that there is not enough room on this planet to grow enough vegetables to feed the population is probably the most absurd thing you said, and believe me, it's hard to win that prize. Let me ask you a question. What do you think the livestock eats? How do you suppose the food gets to the feedlots? Do you have any clue as to how much oil, water and plant products it takes to produce one pound of meat? I would guess you don't or you never would have said what you did.
As for my elitist attitude, you are spot on there.
Paragraph 2: My calorie requirements at the moment are 2700 to lose weight, with a 1000 calorie deficit to my maintenance. My size, active lifestyle, being male, young and of average height create a large calorific requirement and my pursuit of strength and muscle development create a large protein requirement. The cost of getting enough protein from vegetables would be astronomically higher than from meat.
Paragraph 3: I'm sure you're trolling here, or just so blinded by your narrowminded, self-righteous bull**** that you are completely ignorant to the point I actually made. By animals eating the food, they increase their nutritional density, and you can plant more food where the food they just ate was. Is it really that difficult? To make enough room for enough crops, more land would have to be destroyed, flattened and farmed. I never said there wasn't enough space on Earth, but that you would have to destroy even more of it if you want the whole world to go vegan.
P.S. I'm glad you accept the fact you are an *kitten*.
Paragraph 1: Tomatoes, Tomahtoes. You say delayed, I say denied. If a person dies waiting, what difference does it make?
Paragraph 2.:
http://www.google.com/search?q=vegan+body+builders&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=NKTDT-yTLrDl6gGzqYTFAw&ved=0CHEQsAQ&biw=1680&bih=935
Pararagraph 3: You are obviously ignorant of the fact that the meat and dairy industries are heavily susidized. If you actually had to pay the REAL cost of meat it would be about $80 per pound. Bytheway, ask me how I feel about paying for your bad habits - well, if you are in the US I would be. Some other poor vegetartian in the UK is subsidizing you. Take away these subsidies and you will then find out what the cheaper option is. God, I hate government.
Paragraph 4. An *kitten* is someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I don't think I am the one here who qualifies.0 -
Oh, by the way, if you want to hear both sides of the farm subsidy argument :
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1247588/
I know which side I believe, but if you believe that removing government subsidies would actually make the price of meat go down, I have a bridge I would like to sell you.0 -
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ronnie+coleman&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=OqzDT--SLcmJ8gOJ6cjwCg&biw=1920&bih=990&sei=PKzDT9PeFs7Z8QOetoSECwParagraph 1: Tomatoes, Tomahtoes. You say delayed, I say denied. If a person dies waiting, what difference does it make?
Paragraph 2.:
http://www.google.com/search?q=vegan+body+builders&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=NKTDT-yTLrDl6gGzqYTFAw&ved=0CHEQsAQ&biw=1680&bih=935
Pararagraph 3: You are obviously ignorant of the fact that the meat and dairy industries are heavily susidized. If you actually had to pay the REAL cost of meat it would be about $80 per pound. Bytheway, ask me how I feel about paying for your bad habits - well, if you are in the US I would be. Some other poor vegetartian in the UK is subsidizing you. Take away these subsidies and you will then find out what the cheaper option is. God, I hate government.
Paragraph 4. An *kitten* is someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I don't think I am the one here who qualifies.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=arnold+schwarzenegger&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=EKzDT6GsLcX58QPs2fTlCg&biw=1920&bih=990&sei=EqzDT8v4O9C08QPzsYXNCg
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=jay+cutler&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=XazDT9fxMMfi8QOP4PXzCg&biw=1920&bih=990&sei=X6zDT9_RCseO8gPq8PnkCg
:huh: Nobody is subsidising me. I don't have health insurance and I've paid into the NHS, as has my family, for many many years. Eating is not a bad habit, btw.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222273207
Spinach - to obtain 200g at 28g per kg / £5.77 per kg means I would have to spend £41.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222756078
Chicken - to obtain 200g at 307g per kg / £8.70 per kg means I would have to spend £5.66
Ever so slight rise in expenses to get my protein from veg.0 -
Sad to see what was a good discussion thread getting trolled to death.0
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My own silly addition to this rather silly debate is this : Has anyone ever considered that being a Veggie (as we call it in my house) is cruel to plants? You're effectively killing the plant for your consumption! And for all those Vegans out there..do you wear Leather? Do you own a leather purse? How about Leather shoes?
In our house we don't eat much meat, a few times a week because it's one of the few things I can get all my kids to eat without arguments. Red meat, maybe once a month. But I've always sort of thought that eating plants is just as mean as eating animals. Sure, plants can't talk but they're alive! and to eat them means to kill them. Maybe it hurts them to die? Who are we to say if it does or not? We have no way of telling.
I just finished making soy milk and soy/cashew yogurt from actual dried soybeans and raw cashews. Neither writhed, thrashed and snorted in fear. You do know that this argument is a weak one. If you are so concerned with the 'pain' plants feel, I think you have no other option but to starve yourself to death. Animals need to eat at least 2 pounds of plants to create 1 pound of meat. So your meat requires an animal to process your plants for you. You are eating plants one step up the 'food chain', and more of them.
As for the non-food aspects of my lifestyle. I buy my shoes from MooShoes.com. I have two handbags: a canvas one for everyday; and a nice high-end Matt and Nat bag for fancier occasions. I use Seventh Generation soaps for laundry and dishwashing. I clean with vinegar, baking soda and water. I buy hair products and bath soaps which are animal ingredient free and not tested on animals. Most of my clothes are made of organic cotton from Maggies Organics or other companies. I have a very small wardrobe and like it that way.0 -
Paragraph 1: Tomatoes, Tomahtoes. You say delayed, I say denied. If a person dies waiting, what difference does it make?
Paragraph 2.:
http://www.google.com/search?q=vegan+body+builders&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=NKTDT-yTLrDl6gGzqYTFAw&ved=0CHEQsAQ&biw=1680&bih=935
Pararagraph 3: You are obviously ignorant of the fact that the meat and dairy industries are heavily susidized. If you actually had to pay the REAL cost of meat it would be about $80 per pound. Bytheway, ask me how I feel about paying for your bad habits - well, if you are in the US I would be. Some other poor vegetartian in the UK is subsidizing you. Take away these subsidies and you will then find out what the cheaper option is. God, I hate government.
Paragraph 4. An *kitten* is someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I don't think I am the one here who qualifies.
:huh: Nobody is subsidising me. I don't have health insurance and I've paid into the NHS, as has my family, for many many years. Eating is not a bad habit, btw.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222273207
Spinach - to obtain 200g at 28g per kg / £5.77 per kg means I would have to spend £41.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222756078
Chicken - to obtain 200g at 307g per kg / £8.70 per kg means I would have to spend £5.66
Ever so slight rise in expenses to get my protein from veg.
You know what is scary? That you might actually believe what you are saying.
First of all when did Spinach become the only vegetable? Have you ever eaten beans? Did you know beans have a huge amount of protein in them. If you truly want to know how to eat a high protein vegetarian diet on the cheap :
http://www.grow-cook-eat-beans.com/healthy_eating.html
Also, pay attention to what it says about too much protein.0 -
Paragraph 1: Tomatoes, Tomahtoes. You say delayed, I say denied. If a person dies waiting, what difference does it make?
Paragraph 2.:
http://www.google.com/search?q=vegan+body+builders&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=NKTDT-yTLrDl6gGzqYTFAw&ved=0CHEQsAQ&biw=1680&bih=935
Pararagraph 3: You are obviously ignorant of the fact that the meat and dairy industries are heavily susidized. If you actually had to pay the REAL cost of meat it would be about $80 per pound. Bytheway, ask me how I feel about paying for your bad habits - well, if you are in the US I would be. Some other poor vegetartian in the UK is subsidizing you. Take away these subsidies and you will then find out what the cheaper option is. God, I hate government.
Paragraph 4. An *kitten* is someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I don't think I am the one here who qualifies.
:huh: Nobody is subsidising me. I don't have health insurance and I've paid into the NHS, as has my family, for many many years. Eating is not a bad habit, btw.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222273207
Spinach - to obtain 200g at 28g per kg / £5.77 per kg means I would have to spend £41.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222756078
Chicken - to obtain 200g at 307g per kg / £8.70 per kg means I would have to spend £5.66
Ever so slight rise in expenses to get my protein from veg.
You know what is scary? That you might actually believe what you are saying.
First of all when did Spinach become the only vegetable? Have you ever eaten beans? Did you know beans have a huge amount of protein in them. If you truly want to know how to eat a high protein vegetarian diet on the cheap :
http://www.grow-cook-eat-beans.com/healthy_eating.html
Also, pay attention to what it says about too much protein.
Whoops. When you get to the website, go to the menu and choose "bean Nutrition."0 -
Paragraph 1: Tomatoes, Tomahtoes. You say delayed, I say denied. If a person dies waiting, what difference does it make?
Paragraph 2.:
http://www.google.com/search?q=vegan+body+builders&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=NKTDT-yTLrDl6gGzqYTFAw&ved=0CHEQsAQ&biw=1680&bih=935
Pararagraph 3: You are obviously ignorant of the fact that the meat and dairy industries are heavily susidized. If you actually had to pay the REAL cost of meat it would be about $80 per pound. Bytheway, ask me how I feel about paying for your bad habits - well, if you are in the US I would be. Some other poor vegetartian in the UK is subsidizing you. Take away these subsidies and you will then find out what the cheaper option is. God, I hate government.
Paragraph 4. An *kitten* is someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I don't think I am the one here who qualifies.
:huh: Nobody is subsidising me. I don't have health insurance and I've paid into the NHS, as has my family, for many many years. Eating is not a bad habit, btw.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222273207
Spinach - to obtain 200g at 28g per kg / £5.77 per kg means I would have to spend £41.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222756078
Chicken - to obtain 200g at 307g per kg / £8.70 per kg means I would have to spend £5.66
Ever so slight rise in expenses to get my protein from veg.
You know what is scary? That you might actually believe what you are saying.
First of all when did Spinach become the only vegetable? Have you ever eaten beans? Did you know beans have a huge amount of protein in them. If you truly want to know how to eat a high protein vegetarian diet on the cheap :
http://www.grow-cook-eat-beans.com/healthy_eating.html
Also, pay attention to what it says about too much protein.
Bahaha, here we go. Too much protein will make you ill!
I chose spinach because it's often touted as one of the best sources of protein in a vegan diet.
Okay, fine beans:
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338224029307
19g per 1kg, cost for 200g £78
Cannellini Beans
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338224141897
71g per 1kg, cost for 200g £8.280 -
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ronnie+coleman&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=OqzDT--SLcmJ8gOJ6cjwCg&biw=1920&bih=990&sei=PKzDT9PeFs7Z8QOetoSECwParagraph 1: Tomatoes, Tomahtoes. You say delayed, I say denied. If a person dies waiting, what difference does it make?
Paragraph 2.:
http://www.google.com/search?q=vegan+body+builders&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=NKTDT-yTLrDl6gGzqYTFAw&ved=0CHEQsAQ&biw=1680&bih=935
Pararagraph 3: You are obviously ignorant of the fact that the meat and dairy industries are heavily susidized. If you actually had to pay the REAL cost of meat it would be about $80 per pound. Bytheway, ask me how I feel about paying for your bad habits - well, if you are in the US I would be. Some other poor vegetartian in the UK is subsidizing you. Take away these subsidies and you will then find out what the cheaper option is. God, I hate government.
Paragraph 4. An *kitten* is someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I don't think I am the one here who qualifies.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=arnold+schwarzenegger&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=EKzDT6GsLcX58QPs2fTlCg&biw=1920&bih=990&sei=EqzDT8v4O9C08QPzsYXNCg
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=jay+cutler&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=XazDT9fxMMfi8QOP4PXzCg&biw=1920&bih=990&sei=X6zDT9_RCseO8gPq8PnkCg
:huh: Nobody is subsidising me. I don't have health insurance and I've paid into the NHS, as has my family, for many many years. Eating is not a bad habit, btw.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222273207
Spinach - to obtain 200g at 28g per kg / £5.77 per kg means I would have to spend £41.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222756078
Chicken - to obtain 200g at 307g per kg / £8.70 per kg means I would have to spend £5.66
Ever so slight rise in expenses to get my protein from veg.
It's interesting that you would reference a relatively expensive, low calorie vegetable like spinach for your comparison. I just made a huge pot of chickpeas ($2/lb dry). I also made soymilk (3 oz of soybeans costs 40 cents and makes a quart). Later, I will make some okara burgers, made in part from the soy pulp from the soymilk production--these are omnivore-approved by the way.
Many basic vegetarian foods are intrinsically inexpensive, tasty and good for you. Spinach is on today's menu today as a splurge. It is organic and cost me $4.00 for a bunch which will probably serve two, sauteed with garlic in a bit of olive oil.0 -
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ronnie+coleman&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=OqzDT--SLcmJ8gOJ6cjwCg&biw=1920&bih=990&sei=PKzDT9PeFs7Z8QOetoSECwParagraph 1: Tomatoes, Tomahtoes. You say delayed, I say denied. If a person dies waiting, what difference does it make?
Paragraph 2.:
http://www.google.com/search?q=vegan+body+builders&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=NKTDT-yTLrDl6gGzqYTFAw&ved=0CHEQsAQ&biw=1680&bih=935
Pararagraph 3: You are obviously ignorant of the fact that the meat and dairy industries are heavily susidized. If you actually had to pay the REAL cost of meat it would be about $80 per pound. Bytheway, ask me how I feel about paying for your bad habits - well, if you are in the US I would be. Some other poor vegetartian in the UK is subsidizing you. Take away these subsidies and you will then find out what the cheaper option is. God, I hate government.
Paragraph 4. An *kitten* is someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I don't think I am the one here who qualifies.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=arnold+schwarzenegger&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=EKzDT6GsLcX58QPs2fTlCg&biw=1920&bih=990&sei=EqzDT8v4O9C08QPzsYXNCg
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=jay+cutler&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=XazDT9fxMMfi8QOP4PXzCg&biw=1920&bih=990&sei=X6zDT9_RCseO8gPq8PnkCg
:huh: Nobody is subsidising me. I don't have health insurance and I've paid into the NHS, as has my family, for many many years. Eating is not a bad habit, btw.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222273207
Spinach - to obtain 200g at 28g per kg / £5.77 per kg means I would have to spend £41.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222756078
Chicken - to obtain 200g at 307g per kg / £8.70 per kg means I would have to spend £5.66
Ever so slight rise in expenses to get my protein from veg.
It's interesting that you would reference a relatively expensive, low calorie vegetable like spinach for your comparison. I just made a huge pot of chickpeas ($2/lb dry). I also made soymilk (3 oz of soybeans costs 40 cents and makes a quart). Later, I will make some okara burgers, made in part from the soy pulp from the soymilk production--these are omnivore-approved by the way.
Many basic vegetarian foods are intrinsically inexpensive, tasty and good for you. Spinach is on today's menu today as a splurge. It is organic and cost me $4.00 for a bunch which will probably serve two, sauteed with garlic in a bit of olive oil.
I was trying to compare the nutritional values more than anything, and have posted some more comparisons above. Spinach is the highest-protein veg I could think of that would be relatively commonly available here. Food is a lot more expensive here in the UK from what I gather, overall. I have no problem with vegetables and eat plenty most days, as well as a lot of fruits and nuts in phases. My point is that to reach my calorie and protein requirements would cost me far too much, and require a huge amount more food, in terms of mass.0 -
Paragraph 1: Tomatoes, Tomahtoes. You say delayed, I say denied. If a person dies waiting, what difference does it make?
Paragraph 2.:
http://www.google.com/search?q=vegan+body+builders&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=NKTDT-yTLrDl6gGzqYTFAw&ved=0CHEQsAQ&biw=1680&bih=935
Pararagraph 3: You are obviously ignorant of the fact that the meat and dairy industries are heavily susidized. If you actually had to pay the REAL cost of meat it would be about $80 per pound. Bytheway, ask me how I feel about paying for your bad habits - well, if you are in the US I would be. Some other poor vegetartian in the UK is subsidizing you. Take away these subsidies and you will then find out what the cheaper option is. God, I hate government.
Paragraph 4. An *kitten* is someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I don't think I am the one here who qualifies.
:huh: Nobody is subsidising me. I don't have health insurance and I've paid into the NHS, as has my family, for many many years. Eating is not a bad habit, btw.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222273207
Spinach - to obtain 200g at 28g per kg / £5.77 per kg means I would have to spend £41.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222756078
Chicken - to obtain 200g at 307g per kg / £8.70 per kg means I would have to spend £5.66
Ever so slight rise in expenses to get my protein from veg.
You know what is scary? That you might actually believe what you are saying.
First of all when did Spinach become the only vegetable? Have you ever eaten beans? Did you know beans have a huge amount of protein in them. If you truly want to know how to eat a high protein vegetarian diet on the cheap :
http://www.grow-cook-eat-beans.com/healthy_eating.html
Also, pay attention to what it says about too much protein.
Bahaha, here we go. Too much protein will make you ill!
I chose spinach because it's often touted as one of the best sources of protein in a vegan diet.
Okay, fine beans:
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338224029307
19g per 1kg, cost for 200g £78
Cannellini Beans
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338224141897
71g per 1kg, cost for 200g £8.28
First, you should know that I am not willing to give up a kidney to save you when your own kidney fails after eating 200 grams of protein per day.
Second, what do Navy Pea beans cost in the UK. If they cost 78 pounds for 200 grams ( probably about a hundred beans) I would pack up and move to Australia.0 -
Second, what do Navy Pea beans cost in the UK. If they cost 78 pounds for 200 grams ( probably about a hundred beans) I would pack up and move to Australia.
He means enough beans to get 200g protein.0 -
Paragraph 1: Tomatoes, Tomahtoes. You say delayed, I say denied. If a person dies waiting, what difference does it make?
Paragraph 2.:
http://www.google.com/search?q=vegan+body+builders&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=NKTDT-yTLrDl6gGzqYTFAw&ved=0CHEQsAQ&biw=1680&bih=935
Pararagraph 3: You are obviously ignorant of the fact that the meat and dairy industries are heavily susidized. If you actually had to pay the REAL cost of meat it would be about $80 per pound. Bytheway, ask me how I feel about paying for your bad habits - well, if you are in the US I would be. Some other poor vegetartian in the UK is subsidizing you. Take away these subsidies and you will then find out what the cheaper option is. God, I hate government.
Paragraph 4. An *kitten* is someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I don't think I am the one here who qualifies.
:huh: Nobody is subsidising me. I don't have health insurance and I've paid into the NHS, as has my family, for many many years. Eating is not a bad habit, btw.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222273207
Spinach - to obtain 200g at 28g per kg / £5.77 per kg means I would have to spend £41.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222756078
Chicken - to obtain 200g at 307g per kg / £8.70 per kg means I would have to spend £5.66
Ever so slight rise in expenses to get my protein from veg.
You know what is scary? That you might actually believe what you are saying.
First of all when did Spinach become the only vegetable? Have you ever eaten beans? Did you know beans have a huge amount of protein in them. If you truly want to know how to eat a high protein vegetarian diet on the cheap :
http://www.grow-cook-eat-beans.com/healthy_eating.html
Also, pay attention to what it says about too much protein.
Bahaha, here we go. Too much protein will make you ill!
I chose spinach because it's often touted as one of the best sources of protein in a vegan diet.
Okay, fine beans:
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338224029307
19g per 1kg, cost for 200g £78
Cannellini Beans
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338224141897
71g per 1kg, cost for 200g £8.28
First, you should know that I am not willing to give up a kidney to save you when your own kidney fails after eating 200 grams of protein per day.
Second, what do Navy Pea beans cost in the UK. If they cost 78 pounds for 200 grams ( probably about a hundred beans) I would pack up and move to Australia.
200g of protein. I don't know if you were being obtuse or misunderstood, so that's just a clarification, either way.
There is no history of kidney problems in my family. Protein can't cause them, but can aggrevate existing conditions, so don't worry. Your kidneys are safe.0 -
Paragraph 1: Tomatoes, Tomahtoes. You say delayed, I say denied. If a person dies waiting, what difference does it make?
Paragraph 2.:
http://www.google.com/search?q=vegan+body+builders&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=NKTDT-yTLrDl6gGzqYTFAw&ved=0CHEQsAQ&biw=1680&bih=935
Pararagraph 3: You are obviously ignorant of the fact that the meat and dairy industries are heavily susidized. If you actually had to pay the REAL cost of meat it would be about $80 per pound. Bytheway, ask me how I feel about paying for your bad habits - well, if you are in the US I would be. Some other poor vegetartian in the UK is subsidizing you. Take away these subsidies and you will then find out what the cheaper option is. God, I hate government.
Paragraph 4. An *kitten* is someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I don't think I am the one here who qualifies.
:huh: Nobody is subsidising me. I don't have health insurance and I've paid into the NHS, as has my family, for many many years. Eating is not a bad habit, btw.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222273207
Spinach - to obtain 200g at 28g per kg / £5.77 per kg means I would have to spend £41.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222756078
Chicken - to obtain 200g at 307g per kg / £8.70 per kg means I would have to spend £5.66
Ever so slight rise in expenses to get my protein from veg.
You know what is scary? That you might actually believe what you are saying.
First of all when did Spinach become the only vegetable? Have you ever eaten beans? Did you know beans have a huge amount of protein in them. If you truly want to know how to eat a high protein vegetarian diet on the cheap :
http://www.grow-cook-eat-beans.com/healthy_eating.html
Also, pay attention to what it says about too much protein.
Bahaha, here we go. Too much protein will make you ill!
I chose spinach because it's often touted as one of the best sources of protein in a vegan diet.
Okay, fine beans:
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338224029307
19g per 1kg, cost for 200g £78
Cannellini Beans
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338224141897
71g per 1kg, cost for 200g £8.28
First, you should know that I am not willing to give up a kidney to save you when your own kidney fails after eating 200 grams of protein per day.
Second, what do Navy Pea beans cost in the UK. If they cost 78 pounds for 200 grams ( probably about a hundred beans) I would pack up and move to Australia.
200g of protein. I don't know if you were being obtuse or misunderstood, so that's just a clarification, either way.
There is no history of kidney problems in my family. Protein can't cause them, but can aggrevate existing conditions, so don't worry. Your kidneys are safe.
So what is the cost of Navy Pea Beans in the UK, enough to get 200 g of protein?0 -
So what is the cost of Navy Pea Beans in the UK, enough to get 200 g of protein?
I have no idea, since none of the supermarkets I know of stock them.0 -
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ronnie+coleman&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=OqzDT--SLcmJ8gOJ6cjwCg&biw=1920&bih=990&sei=PKzDT9PeFs7Z8QOetoSECwParagraph 1: Tomatoes, Tomahtoes. You say delayed, I say denied. If a person dies waiting, what difference does it make?
Paragraph 2.:
http://www.google.com/search?q=vegan+body+builders&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=NKTDT-yTLrDl6gGzqYTFAw&ved=0CHEQsAQ&biw=1680&bih=935
Pararagraph 3: You are obviously ignorant of the fact that the meat and dairy industries are heavily susidized. If you actually had to pay the REAL cost of meat it would be about $80 per pound. Bytheway, ask me how I feel about paying for your bad habits - well, if you are in the US I would be. Some other poor vegetartian in the UK is subsidizing you. Take away these subsidies and you will then find out what the cheaper option is. God, I hate government.
Paragraph 4. An *kitten* is someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I don't think I am the one here who qualifies.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=arnold+schwarzenegger&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=EKzDT6GsLcX58QPs2fTlCg&biw=1920&bih=990&sei=EqzDT8v4O9C08QPzsYXNCg
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=jay+cutler&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=XazDT9fxMMfi8QOP4PXzCg&biw=1920&bih=990&sei=X6zDT9_RCseO8gPq8PnkCg
:huh: Nobody is subsidising me. I don't have health insurance and I've paid into the NHS, as has my family, for many many years. Eating is not a bad habit, btw.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222273207
Spinach - to obtain 200g at 28g per kg / £5.77 per kg means I would have to spend £41.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222756078
Chicken - to obtain 200g at 307g per kg / £8.70 per kg means I would have to spend £5.66
Ever so slight rise in expenses to get my protein from veg.
It's interesting that you would reference a relatively expensive, low calorie vegetable like spinach for your comparison. I just made a huge pot of chickpeas ($2/lb dry). I also made soymilk (3 oz of soybeans costs 40 cents and makes a quart). Later, I will make some okara burgers, made in part from the soy pulp from the soymilk production--these are omnivore-approved by the way.
Many basic vegetarian foods are intrinsically inexpensive, tasty and good for you. Spinach is on today's menu today as a splurge. It is organic and cost me $4.00 for a bunch which will probably serve two, sauteed with garlic in a bit of olive oil.
I was trying to compare the nutritional values more than anything, and have posted some more comparisons above. Spinach is the highest-protein veg I could think of that would be relatively commonly available here. Food is a lot more expensive here in the UK from what I gather, overall. I have no problem with vegetables and eat plenty most days, as well as a lot of fruits and nuts in phases. My point is that to reach my calorie and protein requirements would cost me far too much, and require a huge amount more food, in terms of mass.
"In a 2009 joint position paper on nutrition and athletic performance, the American College of Sports Medicine (ACSM), the American Dietetic Association (ADA) and the Dietitians of Canada suggested that vegetarian athletes need 1.3 to 1.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight, which translates to 0.6 to 0.8 grams per pound." [From Vegan for Life by Jack Norris, RD and Virginia Messina, MPH, RD].
So, yes, I do agree it is difficult to get that much protein in a calorie-restricted way. But tofu, tempeh, seitan, and soymilk are good concentrated sources. Many of my strength-training vegan friends also use protein powders, but I prefer chewing rather than drinking my food, so I'm a hold-out on that stuff.0 -
Paragraph 1: Tomatoes, Tomahtoes. You say delayed, I say denied. If a person dies waiting, what difference does it make?
Paragraph 2.:
http://www.google.com/search?q=vegan+body+builders&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=NKTDT-yTLrDl6gGzqYTFAw&ved=0CHEQsAQ&biw=1680&bih=935
Pararagraph 3: You are obviously ignorant of the fact that the meat and dairy industries are heavily susidized. If you actually had to pay the REAL cost of meat it would be about $80 per pound. Bytheway, ask me how I feel about paying for your bad habits - well, if you are in the US I would be. Some other poor vegetartian in the UK is subsidizing you. Take away these subsidies and you will then find out what the cheaper option is. God, I hate government.
Paragraph 4. An *kitten* is someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I don't think I am the one here who qualifies.
:huh: Nobody is subsidising me. I don't have health insurance and I've paid into the NHS, as has my family, for many many years. Eating is not a bad habit, btw.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222273207
Spinach - to obtain 200g at 28g per kg / £5.77 per kg means I would have to spend £41.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222756078
Chicken - to obtain 200g at 307g per kg / £8.70 per kg means I would have to spend £5.66
Ever so slight rise in expenses to get my protein from veg.
You know what is scary? That you might actually believe what you are saying.
First of all when did Spinach become the only vegetable? Have you ever eaten beans? Did you know beans have a huge amount of protein in them. If you truly want to know how to eat a high protein vegetarian diet on the cheap :
http://www.grow-cook-eat-beans.com/healthy_eating.html
Also, pay attention to what it says about too much protein.
Bahaha, here we go. Too much protein will make you ill!
I chose spinach because it's often touted as one of the best sources of protein in a vegan diet.
Okay, fine beans:
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338224029307
19g per 1kg, cost for 200g £78
Cannellini Beans
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338224141897
71g per 1kg, cost for 200g £8.28
First, you should know that I am not willing to give up a kidney to save you when your own kidney fails after eating 200 grams of protein per day.
Second, what do Navy Pea beans cost in the UK. If they cost 78 pounds for 200 grams ( probably about a hundred beans) I would pack up and move to Australia.
200g of protein. I don't know if you were being obtuse or misunderstood, so that's just a clarification, either way.
There is no history of kidney problems in my family. Protein can't cause them, but can aggrevate existing conditions, so don't worry. Your kidneys are safe.
So what is the cost of Navy Pea Beans in the UK, enough to get 200 g of protein?
Navy pea beans are those used in 'baked beans' here in the USA. Isn't that a popular food on toast in the UK?0 -
So, yes, I do agree it is difficult to get that much protein in a calorie-restricted way. But tofu, tempeh, seitan, and soymilk are good concentrated sources. Many of my strength-training vegan friends also use protein powders, but I prefer chewing rather than drinking my food, so I'm a hold-out on that stuff.
Ahhh...refreshing. Reasonable discussion.
I already use a protein shake most days. And personally, I follow an even higher recommendation of a about 1.2g per lb of bodyweight, so it really is very difficult. I'm glad you can appreciate that. I won't touch soy products because of the potential hormonal risks that have yet to be proven or disproven either way.
Edit: Baked beans generally come tinned and loaded with sodium. I have no idea what their un-baked name would be here.
Edit Edit: googled and found they're known as Haricot Beans.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338225806693
57g per kg, cost for 200g of protein £10.310 -
So what is the cost of Navy Pea Beans in the UK, enough to get 200 g of protein?
I have no idea, since none of the supermarkets I know of stock them.
Incredible. Well, if you go to the website I posted the URL for you will find that in the US, a cup and a quarter of Navy Beans (18 grams of protein) costs $0.21, or put another way, 7 1/2 cups cost one Euro. (Sorry, I have lost track of what the pound is worth these days. Don't think ill of me - I can still figure change in Old Pence.)0 -
So, yes, I do agree it is difficult to get that much protein in a calorie-restricted way. But tofu, tempeh, seitan, and soymilk are good concentrated sources. Many of my strength-training vegan friends also use protein powders, but I prefer chewing rather than drinking my food, so I'm a hold-out on that stuff.
Ahhh...refreshing. Reasonable discussion.
I already use a protein shake most days. And personally, I follow an even higher recommendation of a about 1.2g per lb of bodyweight, so it really is very difficult. I'm glad you can appreciate that. I won't touch soy products because of the potential hormonal risks that have yet to be proven or disproven either way.
Edit: Baked beans generally come tinned and loaded with sodium. I have no idea what their un-baked name would be here.
Edit Edit: googled and found they're known as Haricot Beans.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338225806693
57g per kg, cost for 200g of protein £10.31
What's the matter? You don't want man boobs? The Chinese eat tons of soy, and you know, I always wondered why those photos of Chairman Mao looked so top heavy.
Seriously though folks, that's all a crock. I have a study financed by PETA which proves that soy is harmless. What's that you say? PETA's a bias source and you believe they have an agenda? Follow the money?
Okay, so I guess you wouldn't believe these stories about soy if they were financed by the Meat and Dairy industry, right? Come on, be consistant. In fact the meat and dairy industry is behind the totally absurd things you have been told about soy. Soy is a brain food. Why do you think the Chinese are so good at math. Sounds like you could use a little soy. Read it and weep:
http://zenhabits.net/soy/0 -
0 -
So, yes, I do agree it is difficult to get that much protein in a calorie-restricted way. But tofu, tempeh, seitan, and soymilk are good concentrated sources. Many of my strength-training vegan friends also use protein powders, but I prefer chewing rather than drinking my food, so I'm a hold-out on that stuff.
Ahhh...refreshing. Reasonable discussion.
I already use a protein shake most days. And personally, I follow an even higher recommendation of a about 1.2g per lb of bodyweight, so it really is very difficult. I'm glad you can appreciate that. I won't touch soy products because of the potential hormonal risks that have yet to be proven or disproven either way.
Edit: Baked beans generally come tinned and loaded with sodium. I have no idea what their un-baked name would be here.
Edit Edit: googled and found they're known as Haricot Beans.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338225806693
57g per kg, cost for 200g of protein £10.31
What's the matter? You don't want man boobs? The Chinese eat tons of soy, and you know, I always wondered why those photos of Chairman Mao looked so top heavy.
Seriously though folks, that's all a crock. I hae a study financed by PETA which proves that soy is harmless. What's that you say? PETA's a bias source and you believe they have an agenda? Follow the money?
Okay, so I guess you wouldn't believe these stories about soy if they were financed by the Meat and Dairy industry, right? Come on, be consistant. In fact the meat and dairy industry is behind the totally absurd things you have been told about soy. Soy is a brain food. Why do you think the Chinese are so good at math. Sounds like you could use a little soy. Read it and weap:
http://zenhabits.net/soy/
So now I'm unintelligent for not wanting to consume soy? As someone that gained weight partly due to low testosterone in my late teens, I think my concern about not wanting to consume anything that can replicate the same effects as oestrogen are valid. The PETA is an organisation set up to combat 'cruelty' to animals so they're hardly unbiased.
I think the Chinese are good at maths because their culture requires them to study hard and expect no reward for laziness.0 -
I would personally not feel comfortable with that at all. I've been vegan for about 15 years.. to me, if im gonna eat something that tastes like meat there is no point in not eating the real thing.
But i've always hated the taste of meat, so i don't feel like im missing out on anything at all. (:0 -
So, yes, I do agree it is difficult to get that much protein in a calorie-restricted way. But tofu, tempeh, seitan, and soymilk are good concentrated sources. Many of my strength-training vegan friends also use protein powders, but I prefer chewing rather than drinking my food, so I'm a hold-out on that stuff.
Ahhh...refreshing. Reasonable discussion.
I already use a protein shake most days. And personally, I follow an even higher recommendation of a about 1.2g per lb of bodyweight, so it really is very difficult. I'm glad you can appreciate that. I won't touch soy products because of the potential hormonal risks that have yet to be proven or disproven either way.
Edit: Baked beans generally come tinned and loaded with sodium. I have no idea what their un-baked name would be here.
Edit Edit: googled and found they're known as Haricot Beans.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338225806693
57g per kg, cost for 200g of protein £10.31
What's the matter? You don't want man boobs? The Chinese eat tons of soy, and you know, I always wondered why those photos of Chairman Mao looked so top heavy.
Seriously though folks, that's all a crock. I hae a study financed by PETA which proves that soy is harmless. What's that you say? PETA's a bias source and you believe they have an agenda? Follow the money?
Okay, so I guess you wouldn't believe these stories about soy if they were financed by the Meat and Dairy industry, right? Come on, be consistant. In fact the meat and dairy industry is behind the totally absurd things you have been told about soy. Soy is a brain food. Why do you think the Chinese are so good at math. Sounds like you could use a little soy. Read it and weap:
http://zenhabits.net/soy/
So now I'm unintelligent for not wanting to consume soy? As someone that gained weight partly due to low testosterone in my late teens, I think my concern about not wanting to consume anything that can replicate the same effects as oestrogen are valid. The PETA is an organisation set up to combat 'cruelty' to animals so they're hardly unbiased.
I think the Chinese are good at maths because their culture requires them to study hard and expect no reward for laziness.
I don't know anything about low testosterone, and I was joking about PETA having an article on this. What I wasn't joking about was that the meat and dairy industry is behind the nonsense about soy giving you man boobs.0 -
And now let us all pray to the altar of Monsanto and the other corporate kings who bring us 'cheap' meat.0 -
As a mock-vegetarian, I do not eat "processed" food, by which I mean "fake meats" unless I have made them myself, for example my famous black bean "burgers". Even then, we don't think of them as meat replacements, but a different kind of meal.
Good for you! Why do you call yourself a "mock vegetarian?" Because you occasionally have meat? Your diet sounds pretty good to me.
yeah, that's why. i won't turn something down that has meat in it, but usually if it's by my own choice, I'll go without. It makes it a bit easier at social functions and I do plenty of my part by not driving, buying first-hand, bringing my own bags, composting, blah blah... I feel like if I want to have a slice of ham every once in a while, it's no big deal.0 -
One thing that seems to be missing is mention of the fact that a lot of vegetables are genetically modified nowadays. There are organic options for both sides, and mass production methods for both sides as well.
Genetic modification of vegetables does not involved "growth hormones." Plants are genetically modified to make them resistant to plant diseases. In effect, what the geneticists are doing is speeding up nature.
If you ever have the opportunity to see what corn looked like hundreds of years ago, you can see what has happened. Originally, corn was scrawny with few kernels. Farmers, with no knowledge of genetics selectively bred the better corn and the result was much different from wild corn, i.e., the corn we know today. This was, in effect, genetic engineering, not unlike breeding corn that is resistant to certain diseases to get a resistant strain, or inserting a resistance gene into the DNA of a non resistant strain.
Again we are talking apples and oranges when comparing making plants resistant to diseases verses injecting steroids into cows. Yes, you have good reason to worry about the meat but little reason to worry about the corn.
http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/news/2003/11/61210#
this is partially true, but the difference is letting a plant make its own, natural strength by breeding vs. crossbreeding species, like GMOs do. It's a significant difference that many people don't know about.0 -
As a mock-vegetarian, I do not eat "processed" food, by which I mean "fake meats" unless I have made them myself, for example my famous black bean "burgers". Even then, we don't think of them as meat replacements, but a different kind of meal.
Good for you! Why do you call yourself a "mock vegetarian?" Because you occasionally have meat? Your diet sounds pretty good to me.
yeah, that's why. i won't turn something down that has meat in it, but usually if it's by my own choice, I'll go without. It makes it a bit easier at social functions and I do plenty of my part by not driving, buying first-hand, bringing my own bags, composting, blah blah... I feel like if I want to have a slice of ham every once in a while, it's no big deal.
I'd love your recipe for black bean burgers if you care to share.0 -
I am vegetarian, my opinion. You wanna eat meat? eat meat. You wanna be vegan? Be vegan. Not eating meat isnt going to 'save' animals nor will it make a dent enough for the industry to care. Dont force your personal beliefs on the other people because they eat something you dont.
I have been vegetarian since I was a little kid and am comfortable being vegetarian! This is my choice and no one elses.
/rant.
'Obamacare' was passed because everyone should be entitled to health care when they're ill, regardless of their social standing.
Your opinion. I don't discriminate by social class, but anyone who makes good lifestyle choices should be granted frist choice of care, if and when they need it. People who make bad choices don't deserved the same level of care since they probably caused the problem themselves.
who decides "good"? driving cars is fairly unhealthy, too. just sayin'.0 -
As a mock-vegetarian, I do not eat "processed" food, by which I mean "fake meats" unless I have made them myself, for example my famous black bean "burgers". Even then, we don't think of them as meat replacements, but a different kind of meal.
Good for you! Why do you call yourself a "mock vegetarian?" Because you occasionally have meat? Your diet sounds pretty good to me.
yeah, that's why. i won't turn something down that has meat in it, but usually if it's by my own choice, I'll go without. It makes it a bit easier at social functions and I do plenty of my part by not driving, buying first-hand, bringing my own bags, composting, blah blah... I feel like if I want to have a slice of ham every once in a while, it's no big deal.
I'd love your recipe for black bean burgers if you care to share.
I'll post it in "recipes" as to not derail this intelligent & considerate discussion.
0
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