Meat eating vs. Vegan debate

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Replies

  • Fay84Vegan
    Fay84Vegan Posts: 225 Member
    I am a Vegan ...

    Because causing pain, suffering of any kind to animals that feel pain is wrong and unnecessary.

    In life we are taught that causing pain or hurting others is wrong - The same should apply to ALL animals.

    The MASS production of animals and animal products is even worse!!

    I will never take part in knowingly harming others that feel pain, emotion and have just as much right to live their life in peace as we all do.
  • Rhea30
    Rhea30 Posts: 625 Member
    I am a Vegan ...

    Because causing pain, suffering of any kind to animals that feel pain is wrong and unnecessary.

    In life we are taught that causing pain or hurting others is wrong - The same should apply to ALL animals.

    The MASS production of animals and animal products is even worse!!

    I will never take part in knowingly harming others that feel pain, emotion and have just as much right to live their life in peace as we all do.

    How do you feel about all the borrowing types of animals that die from cultivating?
  • Rhea30
    Rhea30 Posts: 625 Member
    I am vegetarian, my opinion. You wanna eat meat? eat meat. You wanna be vegan? Be vegan. Not eating meat isnt going to 'save' animals nor will it make a dent enough for the industry to care. Dont force your personal beliefs on the other people because they eat something you dont.

    I have been vegetarian since I was a little kid and am comfortable being vegetarian! This is my choice and no one elses.

    /rant.

    Not eating meat does save animals and does save the environment. Read John Robbins or Francis Moore-Lappe. Eating meat also increases health costs. Why do you think Obamacare got passed? I am 69 and have, by necessity, been on Medicare for four years. Other than routine physicals, I have not used it once, nonetheless, I am forced to buy insurance I don't want or need, and I have forced deductions to pay for medicare. If I could get back all the money I paid into the medicare system in exchange for agreeing to take care of my own health bills, I would grab that in a second. Quite frankly, I am sick of paying for other peoples' bad choices. Smokers, meat-eaters, drug users should have their own health plans and pay for those plans themselves. The rest of us should be in a separate group.

    Healthy people get sick as well, my grandmother needs medicare for health issues that are non diet related and the only way you are forced to buy insurance is if you're on medicare complete which then its in the cents each month or nothing. Those who do smoke do pay more to their health insurance so you don't have to worry about covering their share and meat eating doesn't equal poor health. Some people actually need to eat meat to help improve their health, if they are anemic is an example.
  • jg627
    jg627 Posts: 1,221 Member
    @VegesaurusRex Now that I'm your newly recruited vegan warrior, I feel obligated to direct your attention toward black garden ants, specifically their oppression of aphids, which they drug and harvest necter from as livestock. These people aren't going to listen to us. They only mock us, but together we can actually make a difference one backyard at a time. Go ahead and wait for me in your backyard. I'll meet you back there with some posterboard and crayons.
  • ironanimal
    ironanimal Posts: 5,922 Member
    @VegesaurusRex Now that I'm your newly recruited vegan warrior, I feel obligated to direct your attention toward black garden ants, specifically their oppression of aphids, which they drug and harvest necter from as livestock. These people aren't going to listen to us. They only mock us, but together we can actually make a difference one backyard at a time. Go ahead and wait for me in your backyard. I'll meet you back there with some posterboard and crayons.

    :laugh:
  • monty619
    monty619 Posts: 1,308 Member
    all i know is that im gonna enjoy my memorial day eating hot dogs, hamburgers, and bbq chicken.
  • VegesaurusRex
    VegesaurusRex Posts: 1,018
    I am vegetarian, my opinion. You wanna eat meat? eat meat. You wanna be vegan? Be vegan. Not eating meat isnt going to 'save' animals nor will it make a dent enough for the industry to care. Dont force your personal beliefs on the other people because they eat something you dont.

    I have been vegetarian since I was a little kid and am comfortable being vegetarian! This is my choice and no one elses.

    /rant.

    'Obamacare' was passed because everyone should be entitled to health care when they're ill, regardless of their social standing.





    Your opinion. I don't discriminate by social class, but anyone who makes good lifestyle choices should be granted frist choice of care, if and when they need it. People who make bad choices don't deserved the same level of care since they probably caused the problem themselves.
  • VegesaurusRex
    VegesaurusRex Posts: 1,018
    @VegesaurusRex Now that I'm your newly recruited vegan warrior, I feel obligated to direct your attention toward black garden ants, specifically their oppression of aphids, which they drug and harvest necter from as livestock. These people aren't going to listen to us. They only mock us, but together we can actually make a difference one backyard at a time. Go ahead and wait for me in your backyard. I'll meet you back there with some posterboard and crayons.

    :laugh:

    I get that you are trying to make fun of me, but really have no clue what you are saying.
  • jg627
    jg627 Posts: 1,221 Member
    @VegesaurusRex Now that I'm your newly recruited vegan warrior, I feel obligated to direct your attention toward black garden ants, specifically their oppression of aphids, which they drug and harvest necter from as livestock. These people aren't going to listen to us. They only mock us, but together we can actually make a difference one backyard at a time. Go ahead and wait for me in your backyard. I'll meet you back there with some posterboard and crayons.

    :laugh:

    I get that you are trying to make fun of me, but really have no clue what you are saying.

    Here's a video of some ants oppressing some aphids.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFWJx-2CkoI
  • VegesaurusRex
    VegesaurusRex Posts: 1,018
    @VegesaurusRex Now that I'm your newly recruited vegan warrior, I feel obligated to direct your attention toward black garden ants, specifically their oppression of aphids, which they drug and harvest necter from as livestock. These people aren't going to listen to us. They only mock us, but together we can actually make a difference one backyard at a time. Go ahead and wait for me in your backyard. I'll meet you back there with some posterboard and crayons.

    :laugh:

    I get that you are trying to make fun of me, but really have no clue what you are saying.

    Here's a video of some ants oppressing some aphids.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFWJx-2CkoI

    Nice video, but I still don't get how that has any connection with anything I said. But look, if you have to explain it this much, don't bother.
  • jg627
    jg627 Posts: 1,221 Member
    @VegesaurusRex Now that I'm your newly recruited vegan warrior, I feel obligated to direct your attention toward black garden ants, specifically their oppression of aphids, which they drug and harvest necter from as livestock. These people aren't going to listen to us. They only mock us, but together we can actually make a difference one backyard at a time. Go ahead and wait for me in your backyard. I'll meet you back there with some posterboard and crayons.

    :laugh:

    I get that you are trying to make fun of me, but really have no clue what you are saying.

    Here's a video of some ants oppressing some aphids.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFWJx-2CkoI

    Nice video, but I still don't get how that has any connection with anything I said. But look, if you have to explain it this much, don't bother.
    Humans aren't the only animal on the planet that harvests livestock.
  • VegesaurusRex
    VegesaurusRex Posts: 1,018
    @VegesaurusRex Now that I'm your newly recruited vegan warrior, I feel obligated to direct your attention toward black garden ants, specifically their oppression of aphids, which they drug and harvest necter from as livestock. These people aren't going to listen to us. They only mock us, but together we can actually make a difference one backyard at a time. Go ahead and wait for me in your backyard. I'll meet you back there with some posterboard and crayons.

    :laugh:

    I get that you are trying to make fun of me, but really have no clue what you are saying.

    Here's a video of some ants oppressing some aphids.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFWJx-2CkoI

    Nice video, but I still don't get how that has any connection with anything I said. But look, if you have to explain it this much, don't bother.
    Humans aren't the only animal on the planet that harvests livestock.

    So you are saying that you are at the ethical level of a black ant? Hey, whatever floats your boat.
  • Rhea30
    Rhea30 Posts: 625 Member
    I am vegetarian, my opinion. You wanna eat meat? eat meat. You wanna be vegan? Be vegan. Not eating meat isnt going to 'save' animals nor will it make a dent enough for the industry to care. Dont force your personal beliefs on the other people because they eat something you dont.

    I have been vegetarian since I was a little kid and am comfortable being vegetarian! This is my choice and no one elses.

    /rant.

    'Obamacare' was passed because everyone should be entitled to health care when they're ill, regardless of their social standing.





    Your opinion. I don't discriminate by social class, but anyone who makes good lifestyle choices should be granted frist choice of care, if and when they need it. People who make bad choices don't deserved the same level of care since they probably caused the problem themselves.

    Good lifestyle choices is subjective.
  • jg627
    jg627 Posts: 1,221 Member
    @VegesaurusRex Now that I'm your newly recruited vegan warrior, I feel obligated to direct your attention toward black garden ants, specifically their oppression of aphids, which they drug and harvest necter from as livestock. These people aren't going to listen to us. They only mock us, but together we can actually make a difference one backyard at a time. Go ahead and wait for me in your backyard. I'll meet you back there with some posterboard and crayons.

    :laugh:

    I get that you are trying to make fun of me, but really have no clue what you are saying.

    Here's a video of some ants oppressing some aphids.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFWJx-2CkoI

    Nice video, but I still don't get how that has any connection with anything I said. But look, if you have to explain it this much, don't bother.
    Humans aren't the only animal on the planet that harvests livestock.

    So you are saying that you are at the ethical level of a black ant? Hey, whatever floats your boat.

    Wow, first you stand by unmoved by the plight of the aphids and now you're discriminating against black garden ants. I'm not going to be your vegan warrior recruit anymore.
  • ironanimal
    ironanimal Posts: 5,922 Member
    I am vegetarian, my opinion. You wanna eat meat? eat meat. You wanna be vegan? Be vegan. Not eating meat isnt going to 'save' animals nor will it make a dent enough for the industry to care. Dont force your personal beliefs on the other people because they eat something you dont.

    I have been vegetarian since I was a little kid and am comfortable being vegetarian! This is my choice and no one elses.

    /rant.


    Your opinion. I don't discriminate by social class, but anyone who makes good lifestyle choices should be granted frist choice of care, if and when they need it. People who make bad choices don't deserved the same level of care since they probably caused the problem themselves.
    Not eating meat does save animals and does save the environment. Read John Robbins or Francis Moore-Lappe. Eating meat also increases health costs. Why do you think Obamacare got passed? I am 69 and have, by necessity, been on Medicare for four years. Other than routine physicals, I have not used it once, nonetheless, I am forced to buy insurance I don't want or need, and I have forced deductions to pay for medicare. If I could get back all the money I paid into the medicare system in exchange for agreeing to take care of my own health bills, I would grab that in a second. Quite frankly, I am sick of paying for other peoples' bad choices. Smokers, meat-eaters, drug users should have their own health plans and pay for those plans themselves. The rest of us should be in a separate group.
    'Obamacare' was passed because everyone should be entitled to health care when they're ill, regardless of their social standing.
    Quoting has got messed up, but anyway; those with private health insurance will still recieve a better standard of care as and when they want it, so I don't really see how you can be opposed to the idea. Insurance is only NECESSARY in the US at all because no national health service existed in the first place, so it's introduction means future generations will not be required to have it at all.

    Please consider this; for someone with my dietary requirements due to my lifestyle, size and gender, eating enough vegetable matter and of the right, very obscure and hard to obtain foods (at least here in the UK) to fulfill my calorific requirements whilst not overloading on carbohydrates to achieve my required protein intake would mean I have to eat an incredibly large amount of food which is neither practical, nor in my case, affordable.

    Also this; the nutritional density of a cow is far greater than that of what you could plant on the surface area of ground it is covering. To provide enough vegetable matter to feed an entire meatless population would require a lot more ground clearance, tree felling, nesting bird and burrowing animal disturbance and in the end would leave great swathes of the world as flat farmland unsuitable for wildlife. Further to this, more crops would mean more pesticides etc, which would further exacerbate problems with water contamination.

    Also, please stop lumping meat eating with smoking and drug abuse. Meat isn't an addictive narcotic substance with no health benefit, but instead a staple of the human diet for many thousands of years, with a high nutritional, caloric and protein density. One reason I cannot take you seriously is that you seem to value yourself so highly compared to other people, because they have a different choice of diet. Some humility would go a long way, as it's people like you that portray the very negative stereotypes assosciated with vegan culture.
  • VegesaurusRex
    VegesaurusRex Posts: 1,018
    @VegesaurusRex Now that I'm your newly recruited vegan warrior, I feel obligated to direct your attention toward black garden ants, specifically their oppression of aphids, which they drug and harvest necter from as livestock. These people aren't going to listen to us. They only mock us, but together we can actually make a difference one backyard at a time. Go ahead and wait for me in your backyard. I'll meet you back there with some posterboard and crayons.

    :laugh:

    I get that you are trying to make fun of me, but really have no clue what you are saying.

    Here's a video of some ants oppressing some aphids.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFWJx-2CkoI

    Nice video, but I still don't get how that has any connection with anything I said. But look, if you have to explain it this much, don't bother.
    Humans aren't the only animal on the planet that harvests livestock.

    So you are saying that you are at the ethical level of a black ant? Hey, whatever floats your boat.

    Wow, first you stand by unmoved by the plight of the aphids and now you're discriminating against black garden ants. I'm not going to be your vegan warrior recruit anymore.

    No problem. We are looking for recruits of a different level.
  • jg627
    jg627 Posts: 1,221 Member
    @VegesaurusRex Now that I'm your newly recruited vegan warrior, I feel obligated to direct your attention toward black garden ants, specifically their oppression of aphids, which they drug and harvest necter from as livestock. These people aren't going to listen to us. They only mock us, but together we can actually make a difference one backyard at a time. Go ahead and wait for me in your backyard. I'll meet you back there with some posterboard and crayons.

    :laugh:

    I get that you are trying to make fun of me, but really have no clue what you are saying.

    Here's a video of some ants oppressing some aphids.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFWJx-2CkoI

    Nice video, but I still don't get how that has any connection with anything I said. But look, if you have to explain it this much, don't bother.
    Humans aren't the only animal on the planet that harvests livestock.

    So you are saying that you are at the ethical level of a black ant? Hey, whatever floats your boat.

    Wow, first you stand by unmoved by the plight of the aphids and now you're discriminating against black garden ants. I'm not going to be your vegan warrior recruit anymore.

    No problem. We are looking for recruits of a different level.

    Flattery will get you nowhere. I said I'm not coming back.
  • kamazza
    kamazza Posts: 98 Member
    My own silly addition to this rather silly debate is this : Has anyone ever considered that being a Veggie (as we call it in my house) is cruel to plants? You're effectively killing the plant for your consumption! And for all those Vegans out there..do you wear Leather? Do you own a leather purse? How about Leather shoes?

    In our house we don't eat much meat, a few times a week because it's one of the few things I can get all my kids to eat without arguments. Red meat, maybe once a month. But I've always sort of thought that eating plants is just as mean as eating animals. Sure, plants can't talk but they're alive! and to eat them means to kill them. Maybe it hurts them to die? Who are we to say if it does or not? We have no way of telling.
  • hallie_b
    hallie_b Posts: 175 Member
    ^^^^^^^^^ I'm pretty sure most vegetarians and vegans "get it" that animals eat other animals you don't have to point it out just to be a smartass and pick on someone for their view.
    This thread was meant to discuss health issues and why people make the choices they do. MOST of us were interested in the exchange of ideas and information they regarding eating meat vs. not eating meat.
  • ironanimal
    ironanimal Posts: 5,922 Member
    ^^^^^^^^^ I'm pretty sure most vegetarians and vegans "get it" that animals eat other animals you don't have to point it out just to be a smartass and pick on someone for their view.
    This thread was meant to discuss health issues and why people make the choices they do. MOST of us were interested in the exchange of ideas and information they regarding eating meat vs. not eating meat.
    See, this vegetablist*, I can take seriously.

    *not sure if vegan or veggie.
  • hallie_b
    hallie_b Posts: 175 Member
    ^^^^^^^^^ I'm pretty sure most vegetarians and vegans "get it" that animals eat other animals you don't have to point it out just to be a smartass and pick on someone for their view.
    This thread was meant to discuss health issues and why people make the choices they do. MOST of us were interested in the exchange of ideas and information they regarding eating meat vs. not eating meat.
    See, this vegetablist*, I can take seriously.

    *not sure if vegan or veggie.
    veggie...drowning in too many student loans to be a serious and healthy vegan haha. Plus the hubs eats like a T-rex so I have to purchase/handel/cook/learn about cutsof/ meats anyway.
  • VegesaurusRex
    VegesaurusRex Posts: 1,018
    I am vegetarian, my opinion. You wanna eat meat? eat meat. You wanna be vegan? Be vegan. Not eating meat isnt going to 'save' animals nor will it make a dent enough for the industry to care. Dont force your personal beliefs on the other people because they eat something you dont.

    I have been vegetarian since I was a little kid and am comfortable being vegetarian! This is my choice and no one elses.

    /rant.


    Your opinion. I don't discriminate by social class, but anyone who makes good lifestyle choices should be granted frist choice of care, if and when they need it. People who make bad choices don't deserved the same level of care since they probably caused the problem themselves.
    Not eating meat does save animals and does save the environment. Read John Robbins or Francis Moore-Lappe. Eating meat also increases health costs. Why do you think Obamacare got passed? I am 69 and have, by necessity, been on Medicare for four years. Other than routine physicals, I have not used it once, nonetheless, I am forced to buy insurance I don't want or need, and I have forced deductions to pay for medicare. If I could get back all the money I paid into the medicare system in exchange for agreeing to take care of my own health bills, I would grab that in a second. Quite frankly, I am sick of paying for other peoples' bad choices. Smokers, meat-eaters, drug users should have their own health plans and pay for those plans themselves. The rest of us should be in a separate group.
    'Obamacare' was passed because everyone should be entitled to health care when they're ill, regardless of their social standing.
    Quoting has got messed up, but anyway; those with private health insurance will still recieve a better standard of care as and when they want it, so I don't really see how you can be opposed to the idea. Insurance is only NECESSARY in the US at all because no national health service existed in the first place, so it's introduction means future generations will not be required to have it at all.

    Please consider this; for someone with my dietary requirements due to my lifestyle, size and gender, eating enough vegetable matter and of the right, very obscure and hard to obtain foods (at least here in the UK) to fulfill my calorific requirements whilst not overloading on carbohydrates to achieve my required protein intake would mean I have to eat an incredibly large amount of food which is neither practical, nor in my case, affordable.

    Also this; the nutritional density of a cow is far greater than that of what you could plant on the surface area of ground it is covering. To provide enough vegetable matter to feed an entire meatless population would require a lot more ground clearance, tree felling, nesting bird and burrowing animal disturbance and in the end would leave great swathes of the world as flat farmland unsuitable for wildlife. Further to this, more crops would mean more pesticides etc, which would further exacerbate problems with water contamination.

    Also, please stop lumping meat eating with smoking and drug abuse. Meat isn't an addictive narcotic substance with no health benefit, but instead a staple of the human diet for many thousands of years, with a high nutritional, caloric and protein density. One reason I cannot take you seriously is that you seem to value yourself so highly compared to other people, because they have a different choice of diet. Some humility would go a long way, as it's people like you that portray the very negative stereotypes assosciated with vegan culture.

    Wow! First of all, I've been to the UK and I know that most of what you are on about is simply not true. Let's take the items one at a time.

    Health care. I lived in France for three years where they also have socialized medicine. Like the UK, you can get decent health care - if you go to a private clinic or come to a country like the US. Health care in most of Euorpe is rationed. There is a "Board" that decides whether or not you get certain life saving procedures. That is certainly understandable if it is a case of scarce resources, like, e.g. a liver transplant and there aren't enough livers. But it goes beyond that. When procedures are too expensive they can be denied. No, I do not know this from personal experience, but I have been told this by many people I know from the UK and France.

    Next, you seem to be claiming that someone of your "lifestyle, size and gender" cannot possibly get enough vegetarian food. This is a really bizarre statement, since, as I say, I have been to the UK and EVERYTHING costs about three times what it costs here. Veggies may be more expensive, but so is meat. Sorry, but without further explanation of what is so important about you "lifestyle, size and gender" i have to dismiss this as rubbish.

    Finally, you statement that there is not enough room on this planet to grow enough vegetables to feed the population is probably the most absurd thing you said, and believe me, it's hard to win that prize. Let me ask you a question. What do you think the livestock eats? How do you suppose the food gets to the feedlots? Do you have any clue as to how much oil, water and plant products it takes to produce one pound of meat? I would guess you don't or you never would have said what you did.

    As for my elitist attitude, you are spot on there.
  • VegesaurusRex
    VegesaurusRex Posts: 1,018
    My own silly addition to this rather silly debate is this : Has anyone ever considered that being a Veggie (as we call it in my house) is cruel to plants? You're effectively killing the plant for your consumption! And for all those Vegans out there..do you wear Leather? Do you own a leather purse? How about Leather shoes?

    In our house we don't eat much meat, a few times a week because it's one of the few things I can get all my kids to eat without arguments. Red meat, maybe once a month. But I've always sort of thought that eating plants is just as mean as eating animals. Sure, plants can't talk but they're alive! and to eat them means to kill them. Maybe it hurts them to die? Who are we to say if it does or not? We have no way of telling.

    In order for something to hurt, it must have a nervous system. Plants do not have nervous systems.

    And no, I do not know any vegans who whear leather. I get my shoes and belts from Vegetarian Shoes in the UK.
  • jg627
    jg627 Posts: 1,221 Member
    I am vegetarian, my opinion. You wanna eat meat? eat meat. You wanna be vegan? Be vegan. Not eating meat isnt going to 'save' animals nor will it make a dent enough for the industry to care. Dont force your personal beliefs on the other people because they eat something you dont.

    I have been vegetarian since I was a little kid and am comfortable being vegetarian! This is my choice and no one elses.

    /rant.


    Your opinion. I don't discriminate by social class, but anyone who makes good lifestyle choices should be granted frist choice of care, if and when they need it. People who make bad choices don't deserved the same level of care since they probably caused the problem themselves.
    Not eating meat does save animals and does save the environment. Read John Robbins or Francis Moore-Lappe. Eating meat also increases health costs. Why do you think Obamacare got passed? I am 69 and have, by necessity, been on Medicare for four years. Other than routine physicals, I have not used it once, nonetheless, I am forced to buy insurance I don't want or need, and I have forced deductions to pay for medicare. If I could get back all the money I paid into the medicare system in exchange for agreeing to take care of my own health bills, I would grab that in a second. Quite frankly, I am sick of paying for other peoples' bad choices. Smokers, meat-eaters, drug users should have their own health plans and pay for those plans themselves. The rest of us should be in a separate group.
    'Obamacare' was passed because everyone should be entitled to health care when they're ill, regardless of their social standing.
    Quoting has got messed up, but anyway; those with private health insurance will still recieve a better standard of care as and when they want it, so I don't really see how you can be opposed to the idea. Insurance is only NECESSARY in the US at all because no national health service existed in the first place, so it's introduction means future generations will not be required to have it at all.

    Please consider this; for someone with my dietary requirements due to my lifestyle, size and gender, eating enough vegetable matter and of the right, very obscure and hard to obtain foods (at least here in the UK) to fulfill my calorific requirements whilst not overloading on carbohydrates to achieve my required protein intake would mean I have to eat an incredibly large amount of food which is neither practical, nor in my case, affordable.

    Also this; the nutritional density of a cow is far greater than that of what you could plant on the surface area of ground it is covering. To provide enough vegetable matter to feed an entire meatless population would require a lot more ground clearance, tree felling, nesting bird and burrowing animal disturbance and in the end would leave great swathes of the world as flat farmland unsuitable for wildlife. Further to this, more crops would mean more pesticides etc, which would further exacerbate problems with water contamination.

    Also, please stop lumping meat eating with smoking and drug abuse. Meat isn't an addictive narcotic substance with no health benefit, but instead a staple of the human diet for many thousands of years, with a high nutritional, caloric and protein density. One reason I cannot take you seriously is that you seem to value yourself so highly compared to other people, because they have a different choice of diet. Some humility would go a long way, as it's people like you that portray the very negative stereotypes assosciated with vegan culture.

    Wow! First of all, I've been to the UK and I know that most of what you are on about is simply not true. Let's take the items one at a time.

    Health care. I lived in France for three years where they also have socialized medicine. Like the UK, you can get decent health care - if you go to a private clinic or come to a country like the US. Health care in most of Euorpe is rationed. There is a "Board" that decides whether or not you get certain life saving procedures. That is certainly understandable if it is a case of scarce resources, like, e.g. a liver transplant and there aren't enough livers. But it goes beyond that. When procedures are too expensive they can be denied. No, I do not know this from personal experience, but I have been told this by many people I know from the UK and France.

    Next, you seem to be claiming that someone of your "lifestyle, size and gender" cannot possibly get enough vegetarian food. This is a really bizarre statement, since, as I say, I have been to the UK and EVERYTHING costs about three times what it costs here. Veggies may be more expensive, but so is meat. Sorry, but without further explanation of what is so important about you "lifestyle, size and gender" i have to dismiss this as rubbish.

    Finally, you statement that there is not enough room on this planet to grow enough vegetables to feed the population is probably the most absurd thing you said, and believe me, it's hard to win that prize. Let me ask you a question. What do you think the livestock eats? How do you suppose the food gets to the feedlots? Do you have any clue as to how much oil, water and plant products it takes to produce one pound of meat? I would guess you don't or you never would have said what you did.

    As for my elitist attitude, you are spot on there.

    For an elitist, you sure are easy to troll. Most elitists wouldn't look twice at a lesser being.
  • VegesaurusRex
    VegesaurusRex Posts: 1,018
    ^^^^^^^^^ I'm pretty sure most vegetarians and vegans "get it" that animals eat other animals you don't have to point it out just to be a smartass and pick on someone for their view.
    This thread was meant to discuss health issues and why people make the choices they do. MOST of us were interested in the exchange of ideas and information they regarding eating meat vs. not eating meat.
    See, this vegetablist*, I can take seriously.

    *not sure if vegan or veggie.
    veggie...drowning in too many student loans to be a serious and healthy vegan haha. Plus the hubs eats like a T-rex so I have to purchase/handel/cook/learn about cutsof/ meats anyway.

    Bummer. Well, don't give up the idea. Circumstances change.
  • hallie_b
    hallie_b Posts: 175 Member
    My own silly addition to this rather silly debate is this : Has anyone ever considered that being a Veggie (as we call it in my house) is cruel to plants? You're effectively killing the plant for your consumption! And for all those Vegans out there..do you wear Leather? Do you own a leather purse? How about Leather shoes?

    In our house we don't eat much meat, a few times a week because it's one of the few things I can get all my kids to eat without arguments. Red meat, maybe once a month. But I've always sort of thought that eating plants is just as mean as eating animals. Sure, plants can't talk but they're alive! and to eat them means to kill them. Maybe it hurts them to die? Who are we to say if it does or not? We have no way of telling.
    Plants do not have nervous systems.In order for something to hurt, it must have a nervous system.

    And no, I do not know any vegans who whear leather. I get my shoes and belts from Vegetarian Shoes in the UK.

    There is debate about plant sentience but yeah,.I don't know any vegans who wear leather or animal products.
  • VegesaurusRex
    VegesaurusRex Posts: 1,018
    I am vegetarian, my opinion. You wanna eat meat? eat meat. You wanna be vegan? Be vegan. Not eating meat isnt going to 'save' animals nor will it make a dent enough for the industry to care. Dont force your personal beliefs on the other people because they eat something you dont.

    I have been vegetarian since I was a little kid and am comfortable being vegetarian! This is my choice and no one elses.

    /rant.


    Your opinion. I don't discriminate by social class, but anyone who makes good lifestyle choices should be granted frist choice of care, if and when they need it. People who make bad choices don't deserved the same level of care since they probably caused the problem themselves.
    Not eating meat does save animals and does save the environment. Read John Robbins or Francis Moore-Lappe. Eating meat also increases health costs. Why do you think Obamacare got passed? I am 69 and have, by necessity, been on Medicare for four years. Other than routine physicals, I have not used it once, nonetheless, I am forced to buy insurance I don't want or need, and I have forced deductions to pay for medicare. If I could get back all the money I paid into the medicare system in exchange for agreeing to take care of my own health bills, I would grab that in a second. Quite frankly, I am sick of paying for other peoples' bad choices. Smokers, meat-eaters, drug users should have their own health plans and pay for those plans themselves. The rest of us should be in a separate group.
    'Obamacare' was passed because everyone should be entitled to health care when they're ill, regardless of their social standing.
    Quoting has got messed up, but anyway; those with private health insurance will still recieve a better standard of care as and when they want it, so I don't really see how you can be opposed to the idea. Insurance is only NECESSARY in the US at all because no national health service existed in the first place, so it's introduction means future generations will not be required to have it at all.

    Please consider this; for someone with my dietary requirements due to my lifestyle, size and gender, eating enough vegetable matter and of the right, very obscure and hard to obtain foods (at least here in the UK) to fulfill my calorific requirements whilst not overloading on carbohydrates to achieve my required protein intake would mean I have to eat an incredibly large amount of food which is neither practical, nor in my case, affordable.

    Also this; the nutritional density of a cow is far greater than that of what you could plant on the surface area of ground it is covering. To provide enough vegetable matter to feed an entire meatless population would require a lot more ground clearance, tree felling, nesting bird and burrowing animal disturbance and in the end would leave great swathes of the world as flat farmland unsuitable for wildlife. Further to this, more crops would mean more pesticides etc, which would further exacerbate problems with water contamination.

    Also, please stop lumping meat eating with smoking and drug abuse. Meat isn't an addictive narcotic substance with no health benefit, but instead a staple of the human diet for many thousands of years, with a high nutritional, caloric and protein density. One reason I cannot take you seriously is that you seem to value yourself so highly compared to other people, because they have a different choice of diet. Some humility would go a long way, as it's people like you that portray the very negative stereotypes assosciated with vegan culture.

    Wow! First of all, I've been to the UK and I know that most of what you are on about is simply not true. Let's take the items one at a time.

    Health care. I lived in France for three years where they also have socialized medicine. Like the UK, you can get decent health care - if you go to a private clinic or come to a country like the US. Health care in most of Euorpe is rationed. There is a "Board" that decides whether or not you get certain life saving procedures. That is certainly understandable if it is a case of scarce resources, like, e.g. a liver transplant and there aren't enough livers. But it goes beyond that. When procedures are too expensive they can be denied. No, I do not know this from personal experience, but I have been told this by many people I know from the UK and France.

    Next, you seem to be claiming that someone of your "lifestyle, size and gender" cannot possibly get enough vegetarian food. This is a really bizarre statement, since, as I say, I have been to the UK and EVERYTHING costs about three times what it costs here. Veggies may be more expensive, but so is meat. Sorry, but without further explanation of what is so important about you "lifestyle, size and gender" i have to dismiss this as rubbish.

    Finally, you statement that there is not enough room on this planet to grow enough vegetables to feed the population is probably the most absurd thing you said, and believe me, it's hard to win that prize. Let me ask you a question. What do you think the livestock eats? How do you suppose the food gets to the feedlots? Do you have any clue as to how much oil, water and plant products it takes to produce one pound of meat? I would guess you don't or you never would have said what you did.

    As for my elitist attitude, you are spot on there.

    For an elitist, you sure are easy to troll. Most elitists wouldn't look twice at a lesser being.

    I'm bored. My wife is cooking and my kids haven't gotten up yet. What can I say? A troll is better than nothing.
  • hallie_b
    hallie_b Posts: 175 Member
    ^^^^^^^^^ I'm pretty sure most vegetarians and vegans "get it" that animals eat other animals you don't have to point it out just to be a smartass and pick on someone for their view.
    This thread was meant to discuss health issues and why people make the choices they do. MOST of us were interested in the exchange of ideas and information they regarding eating meat vs. not eating meat.
    See, this vegetablist*, I can take seriously.

    *not sure if vegan or veggie.
    veggie...drowning in too many student loans to be a serious and healthy vegan haha. Plus the hubs eats like a T-rex so I have to purchase/handel/cook/learn about cutsof/ meats anyway.

    Bummer. Well, don't give up the idea. Circumstances change.

    Haha. I could probably do it if I went Raw.
  • VegesaurusRex
    VegesaurusRex Posts: 1,018
    ^^^^^^^^^ I'm pretty sure most vegetarians and vegans "get it" that animals eat other animals you don't have to point it out just to be a smartass and pick on someone for their view.
    This thread was meant to discuss health issues and why people make the choices they do. MOST of us were interested in the exchange of ideas and information they regarding eating meat vs. not eating meat.
    See, this vegetablist*, I can take seriously.

    *not sure if vegan or veggie.
    veggie...drowning in too many student loans to be a serious and healthy vegan haha. Plus the hubs eats like a T-rex so I have to purchase/handel/cook/learn about cutsof/ meats anyway.

    Bummer. Well, don't give up the idea. Circumstances change.

    Haha. I could probably do it if I went Raw.

    That's radical. I love salads and raw tomatoes, and even zuchini with salt. But I do like cooked food. I've never tried raw, but if you do, let me know how it goes.
  • ironanimal
    ironanimal Posts: 5,922 Member
    I am vegetarian, my opinion. You wanna eat meat? eat meat. You wanna be vegan? Be vegan. Not eating meat isnt going to 'save' animals nor will it make a dent enough for the industry to care. Dont force your personal beliefs on the other people because they eat something you dont.

    I have been vegetarian since I was a little kid and am comfortable being vegetarian! This is my choice and no one elses.

    /rant.


    Your opinion. I don't discriminate by social class, but anyone who makes good lifestyle choices should be granted frist choice of care, if and when they need it. People who make bad choices don't deserved the same level of care since they probably caused the problem themselves.
    Not eating meat does save animals and does save the environment. Read John Robbins or Francis Moore-Lappe. Eating meat also increases health costs. Why do you think Obamacare got passed? I am 69 and have, by necessity, been on Medicare for four years. Other than routine physicals, I have not used it once, nonetheless, I am forced to buy insurance I don't want or need, and I have forced deductions to pay for medicare. If I could get back all the money I paid into the medicare system in exchange for agreeing to take care of my own health bills, I would grab that in a second. Quite frankly, I am sick of paying for other peoples' bad choices. Smokers, meat-eaters, drug users should have their own health plans and pay for those plans themselves. The rest of us should be in a separate group.
    'Obamacare' was passed because everyone should be entitled to health care when they're ill, regardless of their social standing.
    Quoting has got messed up, but anyway; those with private health insurance will still recieve a better standard of care as and when they want it, so I don't really see how you can be opposed to the idea. Insurance is only NECESSARY in the US at all because no national health service existed in the first place, so it's introduction means future generations will not be required to have it at all.

    Please consider this; for someone with my dietary requirements due to my lifestyle, size and gender, eating enough vegetable matter and of the right, very obscure and hard to obtain foods (at least here in the UK) to fulfill my calorific requirements whilst not overloading on carbohydrates to achieve my required protein intake would mean I have to eat an incredibly large amount of food which is neither practical, nor in my case, affordable.

    Also this; the nutritional density of a cow is far greater than that of what you could plant on the surface area of ground it is covering. To provide enough vegetable matter to feed an entire meatless population would require a lot more ground clearance, tree felling, nesting bird and burrowing animal disturbance and in the end would leave great swathes of the world as flat farmland unsuitable for wildlife. Further to this, more crops would mean more pesticides etc, which would further exacerbate problems with water contamination.

    Also, please stop lumping meat eating with smoking and drug abuse. Meat isn't an addictive narcotic substance with no health benefit, but instead a staple of the human diet for many thousands of years, with a high nutritional, caloric and protein density. One reason I cannot take you seriously is that you seem to value yourself so highly compared to other people, because they have a different choice of diet. Some humility would go a long way, as it's people like you that portray the very negative stereotypes assosciated with vegan culture.

    Wow! First of all, I've been to the UK and I know that most of what you are on about is simply not true. Let's take the items one at a time.

    Health care. I lived in France for three years where they also have socialized medicine. Like the UK, you can get decent health care - if you go to a private clinic or come to a country like the US. Health care in most of Euorpe is rationed. There is a "Board" that decides whether or not you get certain life saving procedures. That is certainly understandable if it is a case of scarce resources, like, e.g. a liver transplant and there aren't enough livers. But it goes beyond that. When procedures are too expensive they can be denied. No, I do not know this from personal experience, but I have been told this by many people I know from the UK and France.

    Next, you seem to be claiming that someone of your "lifestyle, size and gender" cannot possibly get enough vegetarian food. This is a really bizarre statement, since, as I say, I have been to the UK and EVERYTHING costs about three times what it costs here. Veggies may be more expensive, but so is meat. Sorry, but without further explanation of what is so important about you "lifestyle, size and gender" i have to dismiss this as rubbish.

    Finally, you statement that there is not enough room on this planet to grow enough vegetables to feed the population is probably the most absurd thing you said, and believe me, it's hard to win that prize. Let me ask you a question. What do you think the livestock eats? How do you suppose the food gets to the feedlots? Do you have any clue as to how much oil, water and plant products it takes to produce one pound of meat? I would guess you don't or you never would have said what you did.

    As for my elitist attitude, you are spot on there.
    Paragraph 1: For a lot of people, private medical care isn't an option so we have to make do with the NHS. Sometimes organs are in short supply, but in no other case are operations denied. Sometimes delayed because of scheduling a surgeon, but not denied. COSMETIC procedures cannot be undertaken on the NHS.

    Paragraph 2: My calorie requirements at the moment are 2700 to lose weight, with a 1000 calorie deficit to my maintenance. My size, active lifestyle, being male, young and of average height create a large calorific requirement and my pursuit of strength and muscle development create a large protein requirement. The cost of getting enough protein from vegetables would be astronomically higher than from meat.

    Paragraph 3: I'm sure you're trolling here, or just so blinded by your narrowminded, self-righteous bull**** that you are completely ignorant to the point I actually made. By animals eating the food, they increase their nutritional density, and you can plant more food where the food they just ate was. Is it really that difficult? To make enough room for enough crops, more land would have to be destroyed, flattened and farmed. I never said there wasn't enough space on Earth, but that you would have to destroy even more of it if you want the whole world to go vegan.

    P.S. I'm glad you accept the fact you are an *kitten*.
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