Meat eating vs. Vegan debate

BrokenButterfly

I can definitely see it being a tiresome topic for a vegan, as there really aren't a lot of you around. So you're just subject to all sorts of short-sighted idiocy fomr people who just love to criticise anyone who doesn't do exactly the same as everyone else. What is sad is that you're probably right about them doing it on purpose, as they probably see your decision as being 'purposely awkward' or something.
What the hell do you do when they've not cooked anything you can have?!
And I didn't realise the leather industry didn't get their stuff as a by-product from the meat industry... wow.

neanderthin

The biggest thing about being a vegan is balancing your protein content. Most non-meat sources of protein are an incomplete protein, however this can be balanced by selecting a variety of vegetable sources that compliment each other. With this in mind, also take a dietary supplement as vitamins like B12 I believe can only be obtained from meat sources or a supplement. Oh - I am not a vegan

One complete source of vegan protein that I read about is hemp protein, but this contains a far amount of carbohydrate. Sorry, buying this in the health food store will give you the same effects as what some people smoke.

For what is worth, this subject can be objectively answered by science so there is really no reason for a debate. I hope this is helpful to you.

Yeah, any scientific evidence is greatly appreciated here! I'd just like to hear what others have found! I heard about having to select a range of plant foods to get the full benefit of some macronutrients that we get from meat.
The only problem with science, I find, is that you can come across research that says one thing and then get something else that disproves it! It's all very circular.

The basic problem with science is in the type of studies which generally are ecologic studies comparing food consumption data and disease rates....basically these are correlation studies that are fraught with inconsistancy and much of these studies are financed to find correlations which as we know can be shown to be just about anything, both sides lose.

When I was looking over longevity studies (centenarians), which are many btw, it became apparent that diet was only a small part of why these people lived that long. The diets were diverse, none were totally vegan, which was interesting, but again vegan hasn't been around very long, so it's hard to judge consistanly. Other studies show that it might not be a good idea to rear infants on a vegan diet, and other studies comaring, again ecological studies, show that ovo lacto vegetarians and pescatarian lifestyles to best vegan diets.....the two former diets are not or should not be considered vegetarian, of course this is only my opinion and to me a vegan diet is the only diet that should be classified as vegetarian, and yes I use to be one many moons ago.

The centenarians studies sounds interesting. I suppose it's going to be a while until we can really see the benefits of being a vegan or if there are benefits over eating meat. Even if there are correlations in favour of vegans, we don't know how much of that is due to other variables in their lives.

The basic problem with comparing diet is the controlled diet it's compared to. If somone/group is looking to prove a particlular diet better the SAD (standard american diet) is the one that is used in most circumstances, which as we know, pretty much any other diet will improve health, therefore those studies should really be discounted, but instead they find their way into journalistic headlines, further skewing and adding disinformation to the general population, which for the most part base some of their dietary information and decisions on.

bcattoes

I've read plenty of debates and it's usually very heated on both sides. I'm not sure why, other than the "I'm right and don't like anyone to disagree with me" mentality.

The facts are that you can be vegan and be healthy and you can eat meat and be healthy. This should be obvious to both side of the argument given that there are millions of healthy people eating either.

darkling_glory

the main argument is this: ONLY animal based foods contain vitamin B12. B12 deficiency is one of the leading causes of dementia in elderly adults and is one of the key "brain foods" we consume. you can supplement it, sure, but i'm just sayin'.

This is false. Or, at least not completely true.

B12 is found in soil/dirt. Because animals eat plants that grow in dirt, they absorb the B12 and then pass it on to people who eat the animals.

People *used* to get plenty of B12 just from eating fruit and vegetables. The soil was full of B12 and some of that transferred to the veg. Nowadays, soil is very depleted. Plus, people go crazy washing their fruit and veg with rinses and such. We don't get *as much* B12 from fruit and veg as we used to.

But you can EASILY supplement B12 with fortified foods - tofu, non-dairy milks, etc... Or you can work nutritional yeast into your diet in the form of a topping for foods or as it's own sauce, etc. There are PLENTY of ways to get B12 without eating meat.

I get my bloodwork done every year (as a vegan, I believe this is important). I've never had a deficiency in any areas. I take a vegan multi-vitamin and eat nutrional yeast once a week or so. I'm a very healthy person.

You can be healthy by eating meat or by not eating meat. For me, it's a moral issue. I can be healthy without the meat so there is no reason for me to contribute to the death of an animal for sustenance. That's all there is too it!

BAMFMeredith

I don't see it as a debate, I see it as a lifestyle choice, but of course that doesn't mean that this thread isn't going to get ugly, which it will.

Yep, its going to get nasty.

I very recently stopped eating meat. Not for ethical reasons, but for medical ones. I have IBS, and the biggest triggers are meat. And I have always found meat pretty gross, but I ate it anyway because it was tasty. But honsetly, I don't miss it. At all, and I am getting everything out of my non meat eating diet as I was out of my meat eating diet.

That said, I think there are jeks on both side of this issue. I have read posts by the ethical vegans who say meat is murder and no one should ever ingest it, and from the meat eaters who say you can't survivie without meat.

Personally I couldn't care less what someone chooses to eat, as long as they don't try and push it on me.

Totally agree with you. I have to seriously limit the amount of grains (bread, pasta, rice, anything like that) and dairy I eat because they both upset my stomach. If meat hurt my stomach, I'd have to stop eating it. No big deal.

I don't care what other people are eating. Sure, I cringe when I see people at the grocery store with baskets filled with junk food, but it doesn't affect my life. Just like how if I'm eating chicken, it should not affect a vegan person's life. I was a vegetarian for about 2 years and had to re-introduce meat into my diet for health related reasons (I was not receiving adequate nutrition)...but that was ME. Plenty of vegans and vegetarians can get all their nutritional needs met just fine...I happen to be a complicated eater, so my needs were not being met. That's all.

Eat what you want to eat, I'll eat what I want to eat. I won't try to make you feel bad about it, so don't try to make me feel bad about it.

ETA: I am very careful about the meat I do consume (for the most part). I cut corners sometimes because it gets expensive, but I'd prefer to know where my meat comes from. I love deer season, because my step-dad brings me so much venison, I don't have to buy meat for weeks! Wild game is my preferred form of meat.

khagador

I can definitely see it being a tiresome topic for a vegan, as there really aren't a lot of you around. So you're just subject to all sorts of short-sighted idiocy fomr people who just love to criticise anyone who doesn't do exactly the same as everyone else. What is sad is that you're probably right about them doing it on purpose, as they probably see your decision as being 'purposely awkward' or something.
What the hell do you do when they've not cooked anything you can have?!
And I didn't realise the leather industry didn't get their stuff as a by-product from the meat industry... wow.

I have to make everything myself. Then get criticized for bringing too much food. I always make enough to share with everyone there, even though bf's mom tells everyone that I made it and no one should eat it. Seriously, it's ridiculous and childish. I make like 4-5 things, usually an appetizer, vegetable, protein (which I don't share), starch, and dessert. To me, it's impolite to invite someone over to their home and not have something for them to eat. If I know someone has a food allergy and I have them over, I always accomodate-- it's just the hospitable thing to do.

EmCarroll1990

the main argument is this: ONLY animal based foods contain vitamin B12. B12 deficiency is one of the leading causes of dementia in elderly adults and is one of the key "brain foods" we consume. you can supplement it, sure, but i'm just sayin'.

I did not know this, and apparently I'm low in B12, I should really be taking my pills.

contingencyplan

the main argument is this: ONLY animal based foods contain vitamin B12. B12 deficiency is one of the leading causes of dementia in elderly adults and is one of the key "brain foods" we consume. you can supplement it, sure, but i'm just sayin'.

I did not know this, and apparently I'm low in B12, I should really be taking my pills.

Well now you know. And knowing is half the battle GI Joe!

hallie_b

Another thing I thought about was, what would happen if in the future everyone DID stop eating meat and animal products? Baring in mind something like 95-99% of the population eat animal produce, with an ever-expanding human population, where on earth would we find the room to cultivate and grow so much food?!

Actually, it takes less resources and space to farm veggies than animals.

LordBezoar

the main argument is this: ONLY animal based foods contain vitamin B12. B12 deficiency is one of the leading causes of dementia in elderly adults and is one of the key "brain foods" we consume. you can supplement it, sure, but i'm just sayin'.

this isn't true regarding a leading cause of dementia...

just to add, maybe there is a correlation there, but the leading causes are genes, brain injuries, history of strokes, overall lifestyle has some impact (e.g., smoking, drinking, nutritional overall such as a diagnosis of diabetes), particularly on vascular dementia.

I actually think that it is important to note that B12 is not only found in animal foods. Neither plants nor animals make vitamin B12. Bacteria are responsible for producing vitamin B12. Nutritional Yeast--which is widely used in the vegan and raw foods communities--contains sufficient B12 that a Tablespoon per day will contain enough to get your RDA.

As a note, I am actually a Flexitarian--which means I will eat meat occasionally, but I don't go out of my way to eat it--in fact, I don't remember the last time DW and I prepared meat in our home. I agree that there are a lot of intolerant people on both sides of this debate (not necessarily in this discussion, though that could be the case as well). But there are also a lot of really chill people out there as well.

BrokenButterfly

The biggest thing about being a vegan is balancing your protein content. Most non-meat sources of protein are an incomplete protein, however this can be balanced by selecting a variety of vegetable sources that compliment each other. With this in mind, also take a dietary supplement as vitamins like B12 I believe can only be obtained from meat sources or a supplement. Oh - I am not a vegan

One complete source of vegan protein that I read about is hemp protein, but this contains a far amount of carbohydrate. Sorry, buying this in the health food store will give you the same effects as what some people smoke.

For what is worth, this subject can be objectively answered by science so there is really no reason for a debate. I hope this is helpful to you.

Yeah, any scientific evidence is greatly appreciated here! I'd just like to hear what others have found! I heard about having to select a range of plant foods to get the full benefit of some macronutrients that we get from meat.
The only problem with science, I find, is that you can come across research that says one thing and then get something else that disproves it! It's all very circular.

The basic problem with science is in the type of studies which generally are ecologic studies comparing food consumption data and disease rates....basically these are correlation studies that are fraught with inconsistancy and much of these studies are financed to find correlations which as we know can be shown to be just about anything, both sides lose.

When I was looking over longevity studies (centenarians), which are many btw, it became apparent that diet was only a small part of why these people lived that long. The diets were diverse, none were totally vegan, which was interesting, but again vegan hasn't been around very long, so it's hard to judge consistanly. Other studies show that it might not be a good idea to rear infants on a vegan diet, and other studies comaring, again ecological studies, show that ovo lacto vegetarians and pescatarian lifestyles to best vegan diets.....the two former diets are not or should not be considered vegetarian, of course this is only my opinion and to me a vegan diet is the only diet that should be classified as vegetarian, and yes I use to be one many moons ago.

The centenarians studies sounds interesting. I suppose it's going to be a while until we can really see the benefits of being a vegan or if there are benefits over eating meat. Even if there are correlations in favour of vegans, we don't know how much of that is due to other variables in their lives.

The basic problem with comparing diet is the controlled diet it's compared to. If somone/group is looking to prove a particlular diet better the SAD (standard american diet) is the one that is used in most circumstances, which as we know, pretty much any other diet will improve health, therefore those studies should really be discounted, but instead they find their way into journalistic headlines, further skewing and adding disinformation to the general population, which for the most part base some of their dietary information and decisions on.

That is such a good point. You'd really have to compare three diets wouldn't you? Vegan, balanced omni (without horrendous amounts of processed and general crap) and a largely meat-based diet. Would be so hard to monitor and follow this though.

khagador

Other studies show that it might not be a good idea to rear infants on a vegan diet...

This is something a lot of people have a problem with. My mom said right in front of me and my sister that she thinks raising a child vegan is child abuse. I do plan to raise my children vegan in my home (as long as they are getting the proper nutrition) and they can choose to eat how they wish outside of my home. It's all about education, not imposing your morals and beliefs on someone else.

Also, my sister asked me how she feels about me having to give my kids pureed meat when they're infants. I asked her what she thinks hunter gatherers gave their infants when processed pureed meat didn't exist.

BrokenButterfly

I can definitely see it being a tiresome topic for a vegan, as there really aren't a lot of you around. So you're just subject to all sorts of short-sighted idiocy fomr people who just love to criticise anyone who doesn't do exactly the same as everyone else. What is sad is that you're probably right about them doing it on purpose, as they probably see your decision as being 'purposely awkward' or something.
What the hell do you do when they've not cooked anything you can have?!
And I didn't realise the leather industry didn't get their stuff as a by-product from the meat industry... wow.

I have to make everything myself. Then get criticized for bringing too much food. I always make enough to share with everyone there, even though bf's mom tells everyone that I made it and no one should eat it. Seriously, it's ridiculous and childish. I make like 4-5 things, usually an appetizer, vegetable, protein (which I don't share), starch, and dessert. To me, it's impolite to invite someone over to their home and not have something for them to eat. If I know someone has a food allergy and I have them over, I always accomodate-- it's just the hospitable thing to do.

She tells people not to eat it?! Ouch. That's just seriously ridiculous and childish behaviour. I mean, firstly I'd accommodate for a vegan if they were coming to dinner, and secondly i'd be so touched and delighted that they'd made their own stuff to share!

ironanimal

All the proof you need that we are designed to eat meat AS WELL AS plant matter, can be found in the mirror and in your gut. Look in the mirror. Notice your eyes are facing forward - an omnivorous/predatory trait. Open your mouth. Notice you have canines. Canines are designed for ripping flesh. You also have molars and premolars for grinding. In your digestive tract, you'll find specialised enzymes for both meat and plant matter.

I don't see why either side gets so inflamed, but I do get frustrated by people trying to preach veganism to me. Same as I get frustrated by people preaching religion to me, or their political beliefs.

BrokenButterfly

Another thing I thought about was, what would happen if in the future everyone DID stop eating meat and animal products? Baring in mind something like 95-99% of the population eat animal produce, with an ever-expanding human population, where on earth would we find the room to cultivate and grow so much food?!

Actually, it takes less resources and space to farm veggies than animals.

But wouldn't we need a lot more foods if we only ate vegan stuff? Plus we wouldn't be breeding and slaughtering animals anymore so they might need more room to live.

EmCarroll1990

I'm vegan, both for ethical reasons as well as health reasons. This lifestyle choice is something I made personally and I do not expect others to necessarily make the same choice themselves, and that's fine.

My issue comes with the CONSTANT (and I do mean constant) commentary on my diet. I am the last person you'll find to deny that there are some very pushy veg*ns out there, but if I am out for friends, rarely a meal passes where someone does not feel the need to make a comment on my plate. They are not always rude comments, but they are always laced with the implication that what I am doing is "crazy" or "weird."

I have personally done a lot of research on my diet. I've read a lot of sources both for an against veg*nism and have reached my own conclusion. Contrary to what the public believes, I do not feel the need to "convert" every omni I meet. My only wish is that I could order my animal-product free lunch just once without someone making a comment about it. I will gladly explain, really! I'm happy to tell you how I reached the particular conclusion that I did, but labelling me as preachy when I'm responding (rather kindly, most of the time) to japes like "well, um, cavemen ate meat! Look, we have canines!" in a sarcastic tone is a little ridiculous.

I don't want to sound mean because I don't know you or your friends, but maybe you need to rethink some of those friendships. Good friends support your choices even if they don't really agree with them. It's one thing to make a joking comment, but to make rude comments is not acceptable.

I don't care either way, people can choose how they want to eat.

This. One of my good friends is vegan, and no one says anything about it. We cook different meals for her or just make a giant vegan meal for everyone.

khagador

I can definitely see it being a tiresome topic for a vegan, as there really aren't a lot of you around. So you're just subject to all sorts of short-sighted idiocy fomr people who just love to criticise anyone who doesn't do exactly the same as everyone else. What is sad is that you're probably right about them doing it on purpose, as they probably see your decision as being 'purposely awkward' or something.
What the hell do you do when they've not cooked anything you can have?!
And I didn't realise the leather industry didn't get their stuff as a by-product from the meat industry... wow.

I have to make everything myself. Then get criticized for bringing too much food. I always make enough to share with everyone there, even though bf's mom tells everyone that I made it and no one should eat it. Seriously, it's ridiculous and childish. I make like 4-5 things, usually an appetizer, vegetable, protein (which I don't share), starch, and dessert. To me, it's impolite to invite someone over to their home and not have something for them to eat. If I know someone has a food allergy and I have them over, I always accomodate-- it's just the hospitable thing to do.

She tells people not to eat it?! Ouch. That's just seriously ridiculous and childish behaviour. I mean, firstly I'd accommodate for a vegan if they were coming to dinner, and secondly i'd be so touched and delighted that they'd made their own stuff to share!

She goes to the extent of not even putting the food out on the table or heating it up, while everything else is piping hot from the oven. Thanks for your support!

kiminikimkim

Vegans who push their ideals on me are like religious groups pushing their religion on me.

Their unsolicited advice is telling me my body is going to Hell and my soul is apparently joining it in Hell as well.

And yet my favorite restaurant is a Vegan restaurant.

I normally get along with Vegans & Vegetarians, it is the hardcore granola types who are not successful in converting me entirely that are hard to get along with.

neanderthin

Other studies show that it might not be a good idea to rear infants on a vegan diet...

This is something a lot of people have a problem with. My mom said right in front of me and my sister that she thinks raising a child vegan is child abuse. I do plan to raise my children vegan in my home (as long as they are getting the proper nutrition) and they can choose to eat how they wish outside of my home. It's all about education, not imposing your morals and beliefs on someone else.

Also, my sister asked me how she feels about me having to give my kids pureed meat when they're infants. I asked her what she thinks hunter gatherers gave their infants when processed pureed meat didn't exist.

Are you saying mothers milk is vegan? Some Countries ban the use of soy formulas for infants.

khagador

Another thing I thought about was, what would happen if in the future everyone DID stop eating meat and animal products? Baring in mind something like 95-99% of the population eat animal produce, with an ever-expanding human population, where on earth would we find the room to cultivate and grow so much food?!

Actually, it takes less resources and space to farm veggies than animals.

But wouldn't we need a lot more foods if we only ate vegan stuff? Plus we wouldn't be breeding and slaughtering animals anymore so they might need more room to live.

There wouldn't be nearly as many animals because they wouldn't be bred to slaughter. Also, with the rest of the animals... the ecosystem is built to sustain itself, so there wouldn't be a takeover of any particular animal-- the exception might be deer (if you live in PA, you know).