Meat eating vs. Vegan debate

_VoV

I am not completely vegan, but nearly so. I see it as a kinder diet as compared to omnivorous diets which include animal products. Even more compassionate farming practices and slaughter wouldn't convince me to eat meat because you still have to kill animals to obtain their flesh. I'd rather eat plants and take a couple of drops of vitamin B12 once a week.

The matter of whether the vegan diet is a human's natural and optimal diet? I just don't know, and really, I don't care. I'm practical about trying to influence people to do what I do. There needs to be a readiness component in place, just like approaching fitness and weight loss. I try to be helpful if people ask for advice, but that's it.

All this said: I really wish people wouldn't challenge, mock or otherwise put veg*ns on the spot. When this happens, you can fully expect 'preachy' responses because...hey...you're asking for it.

BrokenButterfly

I can definitely see it being a tiresome topic for a vegan, as there really aren't a lot of you around. So you're just subject to all sorts of short-sighted idiocy fomr people who just love to criticise anyone who doesn't do exactly the same as everyone else. What is sad is that you're probably right about them doing it on purpose, as they probably see your decision as being 'purposely awkward' or something.
What the hell do you do when they've not cooked anything you can have?!
And I didn't realise the leather industry didn't get their stuff as a by-product from the meat industry... wow.

I have to make everything myself. Then get criticized for bringing too much food. I always make enough to share with everyone there, even though bf's mom tells everyone that I made it and no one should eat it. Seriously, it's ridiculous and childish. I make like 4-5 things, usually an appetizer, vegetable, protein (which I don't share), starch, and dessert. To me, it's impolite to invite someone over to their home and not have something for them to eat. If I know someone has a food allergy and I have them over, I always accomodate-- it's just the hospitable thing to do.

See, I agree with you 100%.

I would have absolutely no idea what to feed a vegan if I had one over. Lacto- or Ovo-vegetarian I can do. I'd probably end up saying 'Tell me what to cook'. But I'd damn well learn how to cook something that they could eat. Just like I do for my friend who's on a low-sodium diet, even though normally I put salt in everything.

Also if I went to dinner at a vegan friend's house I'd eat what they served, smile, and say 'Thank you very much', unless it contained an ingredient I actively and strongly dislike, such as chocolate.

I would embrace it and see it as something new and challenging to cook something vegan! Would definitely have to say 'tell me what to cook' though. Maybe get them over and see how it's done.

neanderthin

Are you saying mothers milk is vegan? Some Countries ban the use of soy formulas for infants.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Mother's milk to made for babies, cows milk is intended for baby cows, goats milk is made for baby goats. That's histarical to say that ones child was not raised vegan because the child had breast milk. whew...thanks for the laugh!

Just clarrifying, Some vegans are feeding babies soy formula. lol

BAMFMeredith

Another thing I thought about was, what would happen if in the future everyone DID stop eating meat and animal products? Baring in mind something like 95-99% of the population eat animal produce, with an ever-expanding human population, where on earth would we find the room to cultivate and grow so much food?!

Actually, it takes less resources and space to farm veggies than animals.

But wouldn't we need a lot more foods if we only ate vegan stuff? Plus we wouldn't be breeding and slaughtering animals anymore so they might need more room to live.

There wouldn't be nearly as many animals because they wouldn't be bred to slaughter. Also, with the rest of the animals... the ecosystem is built to sustain itself, so there wouldn't be a takeover of any particular animal-- the exception might be deer (if you live in PA, you know).

Haha the deer here are ridiculous too (TX). In my mom's neighborhood they actually have to somehow wrangle some of the deer into a small area and transport them to a less populated area because they're SO overpopulated. People are constantly hitting them with their cars (on accident, usually at night) and they destroy people's yards/gardens. Plus they're so used to all the people around they will stand right in front of your door and block your way. Just giving you a look like "I'm a deer, I don't care." I love going to her house during springtime though to see all the babies

WhitneyAnnabelle

the main argument is this: ONLY animal based foods contain vitamin B12. B12 deficiency is one of the leading causes of dementia in elderly adults and is one of the key "brain foods" we consume. you can supplement it, sure, but i'm just sayin'.

Ever heard of things like nutritional yeast?

There's no point in arguing over any of this. I'm vegan, and I can't stand the idea of judging people because of what they eat. To each their own. If I don't give a damn about your meat consumption, you shouldn't give a damn about my kale consumption.

realme56

I can definitely see it being a tiresome topic for a vegan, as there really aren't a lot of you around. So you're just subject to all sorts of short-sighted idiocy fomr people who just love to criticise anyone who doesn't do exactly the same as everyone else. What is sad is that you're probably right about them doing it on purpose, as they probably see your decision as being 'purposely awkward' or something.
What the hell do you do when they've not cooked anything you can have?!
And I didn't realise the leather industry didn't get their stuff as a by-product from the meat industry... wow.

I have to make everything myself. Then get criticized for bringing too much food. I always make enough to share with everyone there, even though bf's mom tells everyone that I made it and no one should eat it. Seriously, it's ridiculous and childish. I make like 4-5 things, usually an appetizer, vegetable, protein (which I don't share), starch, and dessert. To me, it's impolite to invite someone over to their home and not have something for them to eat. If I know someone has a food allergy and I have them over, I always accomodate-- it's just the hospitable thing to do.

She tells people not to eat it?! Ouch. That's just seriously ridiculous and childish behaviour. I mean, firstly I'd accommodate for a vegan if they were coming to dinner, and secondly i'd be so touched and delighted that they'd made their own stuff to share!

She goes to the extent of not even putting the food out on the table or heating it up, while everything else is piping hot from the oven. Thanks for your support!

You have your hands full with her, I take it bf is not like mom!

Rhea30

I had an argument with some people recently about the way vegans/vegetarians and meat eaters view each other. A girl had posted a long list of 'stupid stuff meat eaters say', which included a lot of arguments for why people can and do eat meat. While I, after a lot of thinking, can see their side of the argument, they refuse to accept that meat eating is a choice and that 'there is no excuse for it'. She would list lots of research which has shown why we don't need meat, why we're not designed for digesting it, the vegan foods that contain more iron etc than meat, how meat is only bad for our health, etc. etc. These people I spoke to would also go on to say that meat eaters are angry towards vegetarians and vegans because we 'can't accept the truth', whereas it's their forceful opinion and absolute certainty that they are right that annoys me. Surely there are benefits to eating meat? Otherwise 95% of the population wouldn't' be eating it.
While I agree that the way we harvest meat is unethical, I personally wouldn't stop eating it simply because I like eating meat and fish.

I'd like to hear what other meat eaters / vegans have to say about this argument. I'm also wondering if there really ARE any actual benefits of meat that we truly can't get from anything else.

Whoever told you that we are not design to eat meat gave you some very wrong information. We're omnivorous and built where we can digest meat, you can't go sticking us out on grass like a herbivore and expect us to get our nutrition. We're not able to break down cellulose like herbivores can.

Also when it comes to their ethical stance on farming, a lot of it is hyped up and propaganda for their agenda. They'll find a bad case (or sometimes even make up the case) and generalize it as this is what all farming does which isn't case. Farms do not want their animals mistreated because it'll bring the quality down of the product that the animal produces or they simply just don't understand the animal itself (they tend to generalize all animals together instead of knowing about the species).
Its a lot easier to meet protein requirements and certain essential vitamins with meat or animal by products, it only becomes a problem when we over eat but you can overeat anything.

BrokenButterfly

I am not completely vegan, but nearly so. I see it as a kinder diet as compared to omnivorous diets which include animal products. Even more compassionate farming practices and slaughter wouldn't convince me to eat meat because you still have to kill animals to obtain their flesh. I'd rather eat plants and take a couple of drops of vitamin B12 once a week.

The matter of whether the vegan diet is a human's natural and optimal diet? I just don't know, and really, I don't care. I'm practical about trying to influence people to do what I do. There needs to be a readiness component in place, just like approaching fitness and weight loss. I try to be helpful if people ask for advice, but that's it.

All this said: I really wish people wouldn't challenge, mock or otherwise put veg*ns on the spot. When this happens, you can fully expect 'preachy' responses because...hey...you're asking for it.

Perfectly reasonable. Mocking just shouldn't happen anywhere.

hallie_b

Another thing I thought about was, what would happen if in the future everyone DID stop eating meat and animal products? Baring in mind something like 95-99% of the population eat animal produce, with an ever-expanding human population, where on earth would we find the room to cultivate and grow so much food?!

Actually, it takes less resources and space to farm veggies than animals.

But wouldn't we need a lot more foods if we only ate vegan stuff? Plus we wouldn't be breeding and slaughtering animals anymore so they might need more room to live.

I'm not sure what you mean by "a lot more foods" .

If you want to know more about how types of farming impact resources, this is a good article I used for an environmental sciences course:
http://www.ajcn.org/content/78/3/660S.full

I have a lot of research about this particular topic but, I don't think you really want to read ALL the boring crap I had to in order to write my thesis statement. Heck, I didn't really want to read it either.

DannyMussels

My only opinion is google the stuff people use/encounter every day.

If you're not eating food to help/save animals, realize about 100 things you interact with daily somehow derive themselves from animals or animal parts.

Paints, glosses, candy, tires, instruments, glue , cleaning products clothing, plastics, etc.

x1010120348923489723489237473473274832957349803468437864

You gotta go old-school, buy an island and sustain yourself if you wanna avoid killing animals. I read a yahoo article about some guy who did this for 40yrs.

BrokenButterfly

I meant a lot more in quantity. But I think I kind of answered my own question (discussion calorific content earlier) when saying that there are high calorie vegan foods like rice, potato, nuts, seeds etc etc. I suppose it would just all balance out.

VeganInTraining

Are you saying mothers milk is vegan? Some Countries ban the use of soy formulas for infants.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Mother's milk to made for babies, cows milk is intended for baby cows, goats milk is made for baby goats. That's histarical to say that ones child was not raised vegan because the child had breast milk. whew...thanks for the laugh!

Just clarrifying, Some vegans are feeding babies soy formula. lol

yes, so are most omnivores. I have never heard any say they are feeding their child soy b/c breast milk isn't vegan

tigersword

Another thing I thought about was, what would happen if in the future everyone DID stop eating meat and animal products? Baring in mind something like 95-99% of the population eat animal produce, with an ever-expanding human population, where on earth would we find the room to cultivate and grow so much food?!

Actually, it takes less resources and space to farm veggies than animals.

True ... but very soon we would be overrun by an animal population explosion. Of course, many of those animals would wind up.dying from disease and starvation ... so I guess it would balance out for a few years at a time.

Farm animals that are raised for meat are unable to survive on their own. If the entire world suddenly turned vegan, cattle (meat and dairy,) chickens, pigs, would all basically become extinct.

BrokenButterfly

My only opinion is google the stuff people use/encounter every day.

If you're not eating food to help/save animals, realize about 100 things you interact with daily somehow derive themselves from animals or animal parts.

Paints, glosses, candy, tires, instruments, glue , cleaning products clothing, plastics, etc.

x1010120348923489723489237473473274832957349803468437864

You gotta go old-school, buy an island and sustain yourself if you wanna avoid killing animals. I read a yahoo article about some guy who did this for 40yrs.

God that's true... I suppose to be an absolute true vegan you'd literally have to give up on society and do just that. I'd love to have a look at this article you mentioned.

realme56

:laugh:

All the proof you need that we are designed to eat meat AS WELL AS plant matter, can be found in the mirror and in your gut. Look in the mirror. Notice your eyes are facing forward - an omnivorous/predatory trait. Open your mouth. Notice you have canines. Canines are designed for ripping flesh. You also have molars and premolars for grinding. In your digestive tract, you'll find specialised enzymes for both meat and plant matter.

I don't see why either side gets so inflamed, but I do get frustrated by people trying to preach veganism to me. Same as I get frustrated by people preaching religion to me, or their political beliefs.

I'd like to see you use your canines to rip open an animal with hide and all. Human's do not "rip flesh" we cook it, but it with a knife and chew it. ....sorry the canine thing just always makes me laugh.

The people I spoke to were saying how our 'canines' resemble those of horses more than of actual carnivores.

Well, I can't speak for anyone else but I have my steak still bleeding and my salmon smoked, not cooked. Our teeth becoming less effective is a direct result of developing the ability to cook, as is the deterioration of function of our appendix.

Ya cooking meat appropriately really sucks cause then food poisoning can't effectively decrease the population.

Rhea30

Actually, it takes less resources and space to farm veggies than animals.

It would take alot of space if you wanted EVERYONE to go on a vegan diet, plus you would have to find land suitable to cultivate. That is one of the great things with an animal like a cow, it can be placed on land that wouldn't be suitable to cultivate and so then you're able to use a space that wasn't useable as a food resource.

kstep88

Food Inc. (Netflix) That's one major reason why I chose not to eat meat anymore.

VeganInTraining

Ya cooking meat appropriately really sucks cause then food poisoning can't effectively decrease the population.

:drinker:

susannamarie

Farm animals that are raised for meat are unable to survive on their own. If the entire world suddenly turned vegan, cattle (meat and dairy,) chickens, pigs, would all basically become extinct.

Mmm, not really.

Pigs go feral extremely easily and quickly. They're a huge problem in some states.
Holsteins would have some serious issues, but more primitive breeds of dairy cows and many of the beef cows would do okay if we reserved a range for them. Beef cows that have been accustomed to a management-intensive style of life probably wouldn't.
Sheep, on the other hand, are far too stupid to survive on their own unless it's like an isolated island :P

VeganInTraining

Actually, it takes less resources and space to farm veggies than animals.

It would take alot of space if you wanted EVERYONE to go on a vegan diet, plus you would have to find land suitable to cultivate. That is one of the great things with an animal like a cow, it can be placed on land that wouldn't be suitable to cultivate and so then you're able to use a space that wasn't useable as a food resource.

yes, but where does this cow get it's food? from acres upon acres of corn and what not that has been cultivated for them rather than to feed humans. Land wouldn't be a problem if we turned the land we are farming to feed livestock to feed humans