Meat eating vs. Vegan debate
Replies
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the main argument is this: ONLY animal based foods contain vitamin B12. ... you can supplement it, sure, but i'm just sayin'.
This.
I personally don't care if people are vegetarian or vegan. I understand their reasoning, and a person can be quite healthy on an animal-free diet. They can also be unhealthy, just as meat eaters can be unhealthy. So I really don't care what people choose to eat, and when my vegetarian sister-in-law comes to visit for a few days, I always make as many vegetarian dishes as I possibly can for her because I want her to feel at home. I don't criticize her food choices, and she doesn't criticize mine. It works well.
That said, I do not take kindly when someone criticizes my decision to continue eating animal products. It's only happened to me once, thank goodness, but I have good reasons for continuing to eat this way, not the least of which is the fact that I simply do not feel well when I don't have at least some meat every day. To each his/her own.
I live in both camps (I eat meat, but I also see the benefits of a vegetarian diet and eat vegetarian more than I eat meat), so this is purely informative: Nutritional Yeast is very high in Vitamin B12, and quite frankly even meat eaters can end up severely deficient in vitamin B12 because some of them are very poor eaters and do not choose quality nutritious food.0 -
I am a proud vegetarian myself, I don't push it onto people I just don't feel like something should die for me to eat when it doesn't need to. I love educating people though when they ask questions
Aren't you killing that plant when you're chewing on it?
Another frequent discussion amongst vegans / meat-eaters. Their argument is that plants don't have a nervous system to feel pain etc. etc.
I read an article a few weeks back that said they've determined that peas communicate, and therefore could be considered sentient. I rolled my eyes. People have to eat SOMETHING. Please don't freak out the vegans and vegetarians by telling them peas are sentient.0 -
Sooo.... has anyone actually posted a scientific source yet? if they did, I completely missed it.
And now I'm hungry. Thanks, guys.0 -
She would list lots of research which has shown why we don't need meat, why we're not designed for digesting it,
huh???????????? Not designed to digest MEAT? I've never heard of a vegan caveman!0 -
Wow, not a single thing stated there is true. Of course, I've never seen a cow or horse eat meat, and cats don't actually eat plants, they chew on them to clean their teeth, and if they swallow it, they immediately puke it back up because they can't digest it. As someone else already mentioned, are eyes are on the front of our heads, rather than the sides, which is a purely predatory/carnivorous adaptation. Then add in the fact that the human digestive system is actually better equipped to digest animal products than it is to digest plant matter, and it's fairly obvious that humans are meant to eat a combination of meat and plants.
My cat eats catnip...0 -
Wow, not a single thing stated there is true. Of course, I've never seen a cow or horse eat meat, and cats don't actually eat plants, they chew on them to clean their teeth, and if they swallow it, they immediately puke it back up because they can't digest it. As someone else already mentioned, are eyes are on the front of our heads, rather than the sides, which is a purely predatory/carnivorous adaptation. Then add in the fact that the human digestive system is actually better equipped to digest animal products than it is to digest plant matter, and it's fairly obvious that humans are meant to eat a combination of meat and plants.
Humans have a digestive enzyme that breaks down animal proteins. If you don't eat meat, the human body, being highly practical, stops making the enzyme, since it isn't needed. When you start eating meat again, it starts making the enzyme again. It takes a bit of time for the enzyme to be made, of course, which is why people switching from vegan diets to omni diets need to introduce meat slowly. On the other hand, there are plants that humans don't have the ability to create digestive enzymes for. That's what the bacteria in the colon is for. Humans are very well adapted to eat all types of food, the true definition of omnivore.My husband was raised vegan and now eats meat, as do his brothers. My inlaws still don't eat meat but they have started eating some dairy so now I guess they are classified as vegetarians. They eat yogurt, cheese and ice cream that's real milk but don't drink cows milk. I grew up eating meat and still do lol.
What about when people say that people can't eat meat after being raised vegan because they're unable to digest meat? This obviously suggests otherwise.
The people I spoke to who inspired this thread would get really ANGRY at humans calling themselves 'omnivores'.
Here's an example of one of her posts about 'omnivores':
Technically, humans are not ''omnivores''. The fact that most people eat both plant foods and meat on a regular basis is not ''proof'' that humans are ''omnivores'' - it just means that most people chose to eat an omnivorous diet, and, in most cases, their ''choices'' have a lot to do with habit and tradition. Not to mention most parents basically shove meat down their children's throats since they are little, so it's not surprising that so many people eat meat.
What our ancestors did doesn't even matter. Yes, most of them ate meat. So what?! They were primitives, and they actually ate meat for survival. The addictive substances found in meat kept humans hooked on meat, even after plant foods became more available to them, and that would explain why they didn't give up meat once it was no longer a matter of survival.
Deer eat meat, chimps eat meat, hippos eat meat, horses eat meat, cows eat meat... And cats eat plant foods. Should we label them all ''omnivores''? Of course not! Now, let's face it, choosing to eat like an omnivore is not the same thing as being a natural omnivore. According to our anatomical design, we are natural frugivores (herbivores who are designed to eat mostly fruits), no matter how hard you try to deny it.
http://www.www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=431992590163856&set=a.308248069204976.86189.100000593562775&type=3
Omnivores0 -
My response to all this is
Singing "Its your thing do what you wanna do":glasses:
I am a carnivore by nature and I love my meat and its my personal choice. I rarely eat vegetables but if I do it has to be masked with some kind of meaty flavor or dressing. I completely respect other people's choices.
If anyone makes any rude comments on my meat I'll club em and carry them off to my cave.0 -
There wouldn't be nearly as many animals because they wouldn't be bred to slaughter. Also, with the rest of the animals... the ecosystem is built to sustain itself, so there wouldn't be a takeover of any particular animal-- the exception might be deer (if you live in PA, you know).
Haha the deer here are ridiculous too (TX). In my mom's neighborhood they actually have to somehow wrangle some of the deer into a small area and transport them to a less populated area because they're SO overpopulated. People are constantly hitting them with their cars (on accident, usually at night) and they destroy people's yards/gardens. Plus they're so used to all the people around they will stand right in front of your door and block your way. Just giving you a look like "I'm a deer, I don't care." I love going to her house during springtime though to see all the babies
This is a result of the human decimation of predators. Hunting is simply filling the gap we created ourselves.
p.s. Omnivore who buys ethically raised meat when it can be budgeted.0 -
My response to all this is
Singing "Its your thing do what you wanna do":glasses:
I am a carnivore by nature and I love my meat and its my personal choice. I rarely eat vegetables but if I do it has to be masked with some kind of meaty flavor or dressing. I completely respect other people's choices.
If anyone makes any rude comments on my meat I'll club em and carry them off to my cave.
Hahaha! Excellent!
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Sooo.... has anyone actually posted a scientific source yet? if they did, I completely missed it.
And now I'm hungry. Thanks, guys.
Yep.0 -
Most animals don't gnaw through fur and hide, either. That's why they have claws. Biting serves to hold prey immobile, claws will rip it open so they can get to the good stuff inside. Look at a domestic cat for an easy to see example. A cat will bite a toy (or prey) and use their mouth and front paws to immobilize it, and then use their rear claws to shred it open.
Well, I can't speak for anyone else but I have my steak still bleeding and my salmon smoked, not cooked. Our teeth becoming less effective is a direct result of developing the ability to cook, as is the deterioration of function of our appendix.I'd like to see you use your canines to rip open an animal with hide and all. Human's do not "rip flesh" we cook it, but it with a knife and chew it. ....sorry the canine thing just always makes me laugh.
The people I spoke to were saying how our 'canines' resemble those of horses more than of actual carnivores.
Eating a rare steak is in no way comprable to gnawing through fur, hide and ripping raw flesh from an animal.
Also, smoked salmon is not raw, although raw salmon is pretty tasty, especially if you have wasabi.
My cat ripped through fur, hide with his mouth. I have pics of him eating a bunny in this manner (my husband is weird with his camera).
But that wasn't my point. I was just saying that eating a rare steak is nothing like ripping flesh from a dead animal with your teeth. Even if you eat your rare steak without silverware, which is unlikely.0 -
I am a proud vegetarian myself, I don't push it onto people I just don't feel like something should die for me to eat when it doesn't need to. I love educating people though when they ask questions
Aren't you killing that plant when you're chewing on it?
Another frequent discussion amongst vegans / meat-eaters. Their argument is that plants don't have a nervous system to feel pain etc. etc.
I read an article a few weeks back that said they've determined that peas communicate, and therefore could be considered sentient. I rolled my eyes. People have to eat SOMETHING. Please don't freak out the vegans and vegetarians by telling them peas are sentient.
Yeah, sure. I also heard that grass clippings are a warning sign to blades of grass to protect themselves.0 -
Throwing this out there. I just wanted to thank the OP for staying with the topic and encouraging productive discussion. Thanks!
Ditto! Nice job, OP!0 -
This thread has turned over into talking about the biology of being an omnivore. I doubt anyone believes humans are not omnivores. Can we get back to the original topic? The point was that it's a choice because of the technology we have.
You would be surprised. There are people out there who think we are not omnivores but that we are herbivores and this is when biology needs to be pointed out.0 -
Agreed!!! Some form of animal products is need in our diet but it doesn't have to be meat. It can be milk, egg, cheese, yogurt etc that will fulfill Vitamin B12 requirement 0
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Actually, it takes less resources and space to farm veggies than animals.
It would take alot of space if you wanted EVERYONE to go on a vegan diet, plus you would have to find land suitable to cultivate. That is one of the great things with an animal like a cow, it can be placed on land that wouldn't be suitable to cultivate and so then you're able to use a space that wasn't useable as a food resource.
Raising animals for food requires lots more land than growing crops. That's because animals eat a lot more food than they provide as meat. It takes 16 pounds of grain to make one pound of beef. That's 94% more land. And 94% more pesticides. All told, livestock eat 70% of all the grain we produce. They're food factories in reverse.
Animal farming wastes huge amounts of land. The point is that going meatless requires far, far less land and other resources than our normal eating habits do.
(http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/environment.html)0 -
Throwing this out there. I just wanted to thank the OP for staying with the topic and encouraging productive discussion. Thanks!
Ditto! Nice job, OP!
Aw thanks! I'm really genuinely interested in the whole topic area. And i'm so pleased that this is a real discussion and hasn't become a nasty insult-fest between meat-eaters and vegans/vegetarians.0 -
I am a proud vegetarian myself, I don't push it onto people I just don't feel like something should die for me to eat when it doesn't need to. I love educating people though when they ask questions
Aren't you killing that plant when you're chewing on it?
Another frequent discussion amongst vegans / meat-eaters. Their argument is that plants don't have a nervous system to feel pain etc. etc.
I read an article a few weeks back that said they've determined that peas communicate, and therefore could be considered sentient. I rolled my eyes. People have to eat SOMETHING. Please don't freak out the vegans and vegetarians by telling them peas are sentient.
Yeah, sure. I also heard that grass clippings are a warning sign to blades of grass to protect themselves.
I'm going to be wary of peas mumbling to eachother in their pods now. Both of these made me giggle
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the main argument is this: ONLY animal based foods contain vitamin B12. B12 deficiency is one of the leading causes of dementia in elderly adults and is one of the key "brain foods" we consume. you can supplement it, sure, but i'm just sayin'.
Agreed!!! Going completely vegan can cause Vitamin B12 deficiency. Some form of animal products is important in our diet but it doesn't have to be meat. It can be milk, egg, cheese, yogurt etc that will fulfill Vitamin B12 requirement 0 -
Agreed!!! Some form of animal products is need in our diet but it doesn't have to be meat. It can be milk, egg, cheese, yogurt etc that will fulfill Vitamin B12 requirement
Certain yoghurts prove very effective in relation to a healthy bowel movement for me. So it can't be THAT bad can it?0 -
I don't really get the point of posting this to provoke people into arguing. If you want to learn both sides of the argument just google it---it isn't hard.....0
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Raising animals for food requires lots more land than growing crops. That's because animals eat a lot more food than they provide as meat. It takes 16 pounds of grain to make one pound of beef. That's 94% more land. And 94% more pesticides. All told, livestock eat 70% of all the grain we produce. They're food factories in reverse.
Animal farming wastes huge amounts of land. The point is that going meatless requires far, far less land and other resources than our normal eating habits do.
(http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/environment.html)
I've read this site, but I can never find where they site their sources
Shame. 0 -
Actually, it takes less resources and space to farm veggies than animals.
It would take alot of space if you wanted EVERYONE to go on a vegan diet, plus you would have to find land suitable to cultivate. That is one of the great things with an animal like a cow, it can be placed on land that wouldn't be suitable to cultivate and so then you're able to use a space that wasn't useable as a food resource.
Raising animals for food requires lots more land than growing crops. That's because animals eat a lot more food than they provide as meat. It takes 16 pounds of grain to make one pound of beef. That's 94% more land. And 94% more pesticides. All told, livestock eat 70% of all the grain we produce. They're food factories in reverse.
Animal farming wastes huge amounts of land. The point is that going meatless requires far, far less land and other resources than our normal eating habits do.
(http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/environment.html)
Interesting! When you look it at from that angle it does seem all rather counter-productive. Especially if it is true that we don't actually get anything from meat that we could already get from vegan foods.0 -
Yep, the smell of freshly cut grass is grass calling out a warning. Plants don't have nervous systems like animals, but they do have their own versions. Look at how some plants respond to touch, touch a plant consistently on one side, and it will start growing more on the other side to get away from the obstruction. Some plants sense dowels and trellises to wrap around and climb up. Some are able to rotate and turn themselves toward light sources, and some respond to sounds. They also breathe. Plants are just as much alive as any animal.I am a proud vegetarian myself, I don't push it onto people I just don't feel like something should die for me to eat when it doesn't need to. I love educating people though when they ask questions
Aren't you killing that plant when you're chewing on it?
Another frequent discussion amongst vegans / meat-eaters. Their argument is that plants don't have a nervous system to feel pain etc. etc.
I read an article a few weeks back that said they've determined that peas communicate, and therefore could be considered sentient. I rolled my eyes. People have to eat SOMETHING. Please don't freak out the vegans and vegetarians by telling them peas are sentient.
Yeah, sure. I also heard that grass clippings are a warning sign to blades of grass to protect themselves.0 -
Raising animals for food requires lots more land than growing crops. That's because animals eat a lot more food than they provide as meat. It takes 16 pounds of grain to make one pound of beef. That's 94% more land. And 94% more pesticides. All told, livestock eat 70% of all the grain we produce. They're food factories in reverse.
Animal farming wastes huge amounts of land. The point is that going meatless requires far, far less land and other resources than our normal eating habits do.
(http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/environment.html)
I've read this site, but I can never find where they site their sources Shame.
Sorry let me add their sources are there but the links don't work 0 -
I don't really get the point of posting this to provoke people into arguing. If you want to learn both sides of the argument just google it---it isn't hard.....
When I say 'argument' I mean a discussion. 'Argument' doesn't necessarily mean I want people to shout, cry and stomp their feet. Yes, I could google it. But then that's not sharing information and collecting from real people with their own knowledge base and experience.0 -
Just clarrifying, Some vegans are feeding babies soy formula. lol
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:Are you saying mothers milk is vegan? Some Countries ban the use of soy formulas for infants.
Mother's milk to made for babies, cows milk is intended for baby cows, goats milk is made for baby goats. That's histarical to say that ones child was not raised vegan because the child had breast milk. whew...thanks for the laugh!
It is any woman's choice whether to breast feed her children, or give them some form of formula. That said, a woman breastfeeding her child is perfectly consistent with a vegan philosophy. Human milk is made to nourish baby humans, that's why women produce it. Cow's milk on the other hand, is produced by cows to nourish baby cows, the fact that we re-purpose it to feed humans is what vegans take issue with. Also, at least in developed nations, women do have some choice as to whether they want to breast feed (I realize it's not possible for all women, for lots of reasons), cows however, are not given a choice.
Cows need to be milk and get stressed if they are not, its a relief for them when they are milked.0 -
I'd just like to point out that machines used in agriculture kills thousands of animals a year. I know a lot of people are vegan because they don't want to harm animals, but the truth is that unless you grow all of your food yourself and harvest it in a way that doesn't kill anything (hand picking it, basically), you're harming animals.0
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Yep, the smell of freshly cut grass is grass calling out a warning. Plants don't have nervous systems like animals, but they do have their own versions. Look at how some plants respond to touch, touch a plant consistently on one side, and it will start growing more on the other side to get away from the obstruction. Some plants sense dowels and trellises to wrap around and climb up. Some are able to rotate and turn themselves toward light sources, and some respond to sounds. They also breathe. Plants are just as much alive as any animal.I am a proud vegetarian myself, I don't push it onto people I just don't feel like something should die for me to eat when it doesn't need to. I love educating people though when they ask questions
Aren't you killing that plant when you're chewing on it?
Another frequent discussion amongst vegans / meat-eaters. Their argument is that plants don't have a nervous system to feel pain etc. etc.
I read an article a few weeks back that said they've determined that peas communicate, and therefore could be considered sentient. I rolled my eyes. People have to eat SOMETHING. Please don't freak out the vegans and vegetarians by telling them peas are sentient.
Yeah, sure. I also heard that grass clippings are a warning sign to blades of grass to protect themselves.
Oh I thought the previous poster was joking! Apologies. This is fascinating.0 -
Personally, I'm not vegetarian for health reasons but simply because of the ethical factor. I simply don't want animals to die just for my sandwich, that's pretty much all.0
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