Meat eating vs. Vegan debate
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I'm a non-judgmental meat eater. I don't eat cow because I don't like it, I think it would be detrimental to my diet and a cow is just too big and creepy for me to feel good about eating it. I'd like to cut out pig, as well. I understand vegetarians' reasons for not eating meat, I just don't share them.
Veganism, however, is totally different to me... I understand veganism for health reasons or if you honestly hate eggs and dairy, but let's be real here. Chickens will always make eggs. Cows, in the right hormonal state, will always make milk. Local farmers and cage-free cruelty-free non-local farmers will always exist. You can easily be non-vegan without hurting animals, you just have to be willing to invest in farmers who keep their chickens vegetarian-fed and cage-free and keep their cows hormone and cruelty-free. Veganism seems like it would cost a little extra anyway, so why not redirect that cost towards farmers who are actually doing right by their animals? It just seems a little jerky to me.
I live in Maine, though, so all I see are the local farmers who could use our help. They don't harm their animals, their chickens are free-range and their cows aren't treated with hormones. It kind of defeats the argument for ethical veganism, to me.0 -
I am a proud vegetarian myself, I don't push it onto people I just don't feel like something should die for me to eat when it doesn't need to. I love educating people though when they ask questions
Aren't you killing that plant when you're chewing on it?0 -
one day you're going to have to take a stand. Those vegans are out there! They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity or remorse and they absolutely WILL NOT STOP... until you read their vegiblog.I eat meat and I love it... that's about as much of a "debate" as you'll get out of me. I mean, if someone's going to be vegan, just make sure they're getting well-rounded nutrients and proteins! If someone (like me) loves meat, make sure not to eat in excess.
Because of my dairy allergy I *AM* forced to use vegan margarine. I guess we can connect over that one. Hahahahaha.
But no, I don't debate it. Although I haven't known many people to stay with a vegan lifestyle for super long. Kudos to those who can do it with balance and good health!0 -
I had an argument with some people recently about the way vegans/vegetarians and meat eaters view eachother. A girl had posted a long list of 'stupid stuff meat eaters say', which included a lot of arguments for why people can and do eat meat. While I, after a lot of thinking, can see their side of the argument, they refuse to accept that meat eating is a choice and that 'there is no excuse for it'. She would list lots of research which has shown why we don't need meat, why we're not designed for digesting it, the vegan foods that contain more iron etc than meat, how meat is only bad for our health, etc. etc. These people I spoke to would also go on to say that meat eaters are angry towards vegetarians and vegans because we 'can't accept the truth', whereas it's their forceful opinion and absolute certainty that they are right that annoys me. Surely there are benefits to eating meat? Otherwise 95% of the population wouldnt' be eating it.
While I agree that the way we harvest meat is unethical, I personally wouldn't stop eating it simply because I like eating meat and fish.
I'd like to hear what other meat eaters / vegans have to say about this argument. I'm also wondering if there really ARE any actual benefits of meat that we truly can't get from anything else.
You really have to define the argument you want to talk about more carefully. There are several possibilities:
Are humans carnivores? Answer No. we are herbivores. This is demonstrated by our physiology, dentition and history. Can we eat meat? Yes, a wolf or a tiger can also eat berries. That does not make them herbivores. As for whether we are omnivores, virtually all animals are omnivores in the sense that they CAN eat both meat and vegetables. Omnivore is not a valid classification in my opinion.
Does eating meat harm you? There are many many stufies that show that eating meat can cause occlusion of the arteries, obesity, diabetes, and other chronic health problems. There is not one single study that shows that eating vegetables can harm you. None. Nada Nichts
Are there moral issues? Of course. If you believe in the Golden Rule, then you are a hypocrite if you eat dead animals. If you claim you are an environmentalist, you are a hypocrite unless you are vegetarian. If you claim you like animals then....well you get the picture.
So do you want to talk about health issues, moral issues, scientific evidence or whatever? Define what you want to discuiss.
Everything and anything surrounding this issue. Talking with the people I spoke to a few days ago brought a LOT of things to my attention that i'd never even thought about before. And this is exactly the example I posted a few minutes ago (the example post of why humans aren't omnivores)0 -
Throwing this out there. I just wanted to thank the OP for staying with the topic and encouraging productive discussion. Thanks!0
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No plant based foods contain B12 or cholesterol (which is needed to make testosterone and estrogen). Other than that, it just comes down to personal choice of whether or not you want to be vegan or a meat eater.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer/Group Fitness Instructor
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Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
This is true, but it is easily supplemented. I would also point out that recently, many health practitioners advise all people over 50 to take B12 supplements whether they eat animal products, or not. Why? The human body has a difficult time extracting the B12 from the dietary sources and requires intrinsic factor to do it.
And as for cholesterol, our livers make it in abundance.0 -
one day you're going to have to take a stand. Those vegans are out there! They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity or remorse and they absolutely WILL NOT STOP... until you read their vegiblog.I eat meat and I love it... that's about as much of a "debate" as you'll get out of me. I mean, if someone's going to be vegan, just make sure they're getting well-rounded nutrients and proteins! If someone (like me) loves meat, make sure not to eat in excess.
Because of my dairy allergy I *AM* forced to use vegan margarine. I guess we can connect over that one. Hahahahaha.
But no, I don't debate it. Although I haven't known many people to stay with a vegan lifestyle for super long. Kudos to those who can do it with balance and good health!
I C WUT U DID THAR0 -
Wow, not a single thing stated there is true. Of course, I've never seen a cow or horse eat meat, and cats don't actually eat plants, they chew on them to clean their teeth, and if they swallow it, they immediately puke it back up because they can't digest it. As someone else already mentioned, are eyes are on the front of our heads, rather than the sides, which is a purely predatory/carnivorous adaptation. Then add in the fact that the human digestive system is actually better equipped to digest animal products than it is to digest plant matter, and it's fairly obvious that humans are meant to eat a combination of meat and plants.
Humans have a digestive enzyme that breaks down animal proteins. If you don't eat meat, the human body, being highly practical, stops making the enzyme, since it isn't needed. When you start eating meat again, it starts making the enzyme again. It takes a bit of time for the enzyme to be made, of course, which is why people switching from vegan diets to omni diets need to introduce meat slowly. On the other hand, there are plants that humans don't have the ability to create digestive enzymes for. That's what the bacteria in the colon is for. Humans are very well adapted to eat all types of food, the true definition of omnivore.My husband was raised vegan and now eats meat, as do his brothers. My inlaws still don't eat meat but they have started eating some dairy so now I guess they are classified as vegetarians. They eat yogurt, cheese and ice cream that's real milk but don't drink cows milk. I grew up eating meat and still do lol.
What about when people say that people can't eat meat after being raised vegan because they're unable to digest meat? This obviously suggests otherwise.
The people I spoke to who inspired this thread would get really ANGRY at humans calling themselves 'omnivores'.
Here's an example of one of her posts about 'omnivores':
Technically, humans are not ''omnivores''. The fact that most people eat both plant foods and meat on a regular basis is not ''proof'' that humans are ''omnivores'' - it just means that most people chose to eat an omnivorous diet, and, in most cases, their ''choices'' have a lot to do with habit and tradition. Not to mention most parents basically shove meat down their children's throats since they are little, so it's not surprising that so many people eat meat.
What our ancestors did doesn't even matter. Yes, most of them ate meat. So what?! They were primitives, and they actually ate meat for survival. The addictive substances found in meat kept humans hooked on meat, even after plant foods became more available to them, and that would explain why they didn't give up meat once it was no longer a matter of survival.
Deer eat meat, chimps eat meat, hippos eat meat, horses eat meat, cows eat meat... And cats eat plant foods. Should we label them all ''omnivores''? Of course not! Now, let's face it, choosing to eat like an omnivore is not the same thing as being a natural omnivore. According to our anatomical design, we are natural frugivores (herbivores who are designed to eat mostly fruits), no matter how hard you try to deny it.
http://www.www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=431992590163856&set=a.308248069204976.86189.100000593562775&type=30 -
This thread has turned over into talking about the biology of being an omnivore. I doubt anyone believes humans are not omnivores. Can we get back to the original topic? The point was that it's a choice because of the technology we have.0
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I am a proud vegetarian myself, I don't push it onto people I just don't feel like something should die for me to eat when it doesn't need to. I love educating people though when they ask questions
Aren't you killing that plant when you're chewing on it?
Another frequent discussion amongst vegans / meat-eaters. Their argument is that plants don't have a nervous system to feel pain etc. etc.0 -
the main argument is this: ONLY animal based foods contain vitamin B12. ... you can supplement it, sure, but i'm just sayin'.
This.
I personally don't care if people are vegetarian or vegan. I understand their reasoning, and a person can be quite healthy on an animal-free diet. They can also be unhealthy, just as meat eaters can be unhealthy. So I really don't care what people choose to eat, and when my vegetarian sister-in-law comes to visit for a few days, I always make as many vegetarian dishes as I possibly can for her because I want her to feel at home. I don't criticize her food choices, and she doesn't criticize mine. It works well.
That said, I do not take kindly when someone criticizes my decision to continue eating animal products. It's only happened to me once, thank goodness, but I have good reasons for continuing to eat this way, not the least of which is the fact that I simply do not feel well when I don't have at least some meat every day. To each his/her own.
I live in both camps (I eat meat, but I also see the benefits of a vegetarian diet and eat vegetarian more than I eat meat), so this is purely informative: Nutritional Yeast is very high in Vitamin B12, and quite frankly even meat eaters can end up severely deficient in vitamin B12 because some of them are very poor eaters and do not choose quality nutritious food.0 -
I am a proud vegetarian myself, I don't push it onto people I just don't feel like something should die for me to eat when it doesn't need to. I love educating people though when they ask questions
Aren't you killing that plant when you're chewing on it?
Another frequent discussion amongst vegans / meat-eaters. Their argument is that plants don't have a nervous system to feel pain etc. etc.
I read an article a few weeks back that said they've determined that peas communicate, and therefore could be considered sentient. I rolled my eyes. People have to eat SOMETHING. Please don't freak out the vegans and vegetarians by telling them peas are sentient.0 -
Sooo.... has anyone actually posted a scientific source yet? if they did, I completely missed it.
And now I'm hungry. Thanks, guys.0 -
She would list lots of research which has shown why we don't need meat, why we're not designed for digesting it,
huh???????????? Not designed to digest MEAT? I've never heard of a vegan caveman!0 -
Wow, not a single thing stated there is true. Of course, I've never seen a cow or horse eat meat, and cats don't actually eat plants, they chew on them to clean their teeth, and if they swallow it, they immediately puke it back up because they can't digest it. As someone else already mentioned, are eyes are on the front of our heads, rather than the sides, which is a purely predatory/carnivorous adaptation. Then add in the fact that the human digestive system is actually better equipped to digest animal products than it is to digest plant matter, and it's fairly obvious that humans are meant to eat a combination of meat and plants.
My cat eats catnip...0 -
Wow, not a single thing stated there is true. Of course, I've never seen a cow or horse eat meat, and cats don't actually eat plants, they chew on them to clean their teeth, and if they swallow it, they immediately puke it back up because they can't digest it. As someone else already mentioned, are eyes are on the front of our heads, rather than the sides, which is a purely predatory/carnivorous adaptation. Then add in the fact that the human digestive system is actually better equipped to digest animal products than it is to digest plant matter, and it's fairly obvious that humans are meant to eat a combination of meat and plants.
Humans have a digestive enzyme that breaks down animal proteins. If you don't eat meat, the human body, being highly practical, stops making the enzyme, since it isn't needed. When you start eating meat again, it starts making the enzyme again. It takes a bit of time for the enzyme to be made, of course, which is why people switching from vegan diets to omni diets need to introduce meat slowly. On the other hand, there are plants that humans don't have the ability to create digestive enzymes for. That's what the bacteria in the colon is for. Humans are very well adapted to eat all types of food, the true definition of omnivore.My husband was raised vegan and now eats meat, as do his brothers. My inlaws still don't eat meat but they have started eating some dairy so now I guess they are classified as vegetarians. They eat yogurt, cheese and ice cream that's real milk but don't drink cows milk. I grew up eating meat and still do lol.
What about when people say that people can't eat meat after being raised vegan because they're unable to digest meat? This obviously suggests otherwise.
The people I spoke to who inspired this thread would get really ANGRY at humans calling themselves 'omnivores'.
Here's an example of one of her posts about 'omnivores':
Technically, humans are not ''omnivores''. The fact that most people eat both plant foods and meat on a regular basis is not ''proof'' that humans are ''omnivores'' - it just means that most people chose to eat an omnivorous diet, and, in most cases, their ''choices'' have a lot to do with habit and tradition. Not to mention most parents basically shove meat down their children's throats since they are little, so it's not surprising that so many people eat meat.
What our ancestors did doesn't even matter. Yes, most of them ate meat. So what?! They were primitives, and they actually ate meat for survival. The addictive substances found in meat kept humans hooked on meat, even after plant foods became more available to them, and that would explain why they didn't give up meat once it was no longer a matter of survival.
Deer eat meat, chimps eat meat, hippos eat meat, horses eat meat, cows eat meat... And cats eat plant foods. Should we label them all ''omnivores''? Of course not! Now, let's face it, choosing to eat like an omnivore is not the same thing as being a natural omnivore. According to our anatomical design, we are natural frugivores (herbivores who are designed to eat mostly fruits), no matter how hard you try to deny it.
http://www.www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=431992590163856&set=a.308248069204976.86189.100000593562775&type=3
Omnivores0 -
My response to all this is
Singing "Its your thing do what you wanna do":glasses:
I am a carnivore by nature and I love my meat and its my personal choice. I rarely eat vegetables but if I do it has to be masked with some kind of meaty flavor or dressing. I completely respect other people's choices.
If anyone makes any rude comments on my meat I'll club em and carry them off to my cave.0 -
There wouldn't be nearly as many animals because they wouldn't be bred to slaughter. Also, with the rest of the animals... the ecosystem is built to sustain itself, so there wouldn't be a takeover of any particular animal-- the exception might be deer (if you live in PA, you know).
Haha the deer here are ridiculous too (TX). In my mom's neighborhood they actually have to somehow wrangle some of the deer into a small area and transport them to a less populated area because they're SO overpopulated. People are constantly hitting them with their cars (on accident, usually at night) and they destroy people's yards/gardens. Plus they're so used to all the people around they will stand right in front of your door and block your way. Just giving you a look like "I'm a deer, I don't care." I love going to her house during springtime though to see all the babies
This is a result of the human decimation of predators. Hunting is simply filling the gap we created ourselves.
p.s. Omnivore who buys ethically raised meat when it can be budgeted.0 -
My response to all this is
Singing "Its your thing do what you wanna do":glasses:
I am a carnivore by nature and I love my meat and its my personal choice. I rarely eat vegetables but if I do it has to be masked with some kind of meaty flavor or dressing. I completely respect other people's choices.
If anyone makes any rude comments on my meat I'll club em and carry them off to my cave.
Hahaha! Excellent!
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Sooo.... has anyone actually posted a scientific source yet? if they did, I completely missed it.
And now I'm hungry. Thanks, guys.
Yep.0
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