Meat eating vs. Vegan debate

tsh0ck

Another thing I thought about was, what would happen if in the future everyone DID stop eating meat and animal products? Baring in mind something like 95-99% of the population eat animal produce, with an ever-expanding human population, where on earth would we find the room to cultivate and grow so much food?!

Actually, it takes less resources and space to farm veggies than animals.

True ... but very soon we would be overrun by an animal population explosion. Of course, many of those animals would wind up.dying from disease and starvation ... so I guess it would balance out for a few years at a time.

Farm animals that are raised for meat are unable to survive on their own. If the entire world suddenly turned vegan, cattle (meat and dairy,) chickens, pigs, would all basically become extinct.

I was thinking more of already wild animals. But what you said also is wrong - which usually doesn't happen, actually. There are plenty of all those animals wild. Actually, wild and feral pigs are a massive problem in the south.

tigersword

I am a proud vegetarian myself, I don't push it onto people I just don't feel like something should die for me to eat when it doesn't need to. I love educating people though when they ask questions

Aren't you killing that plant when you're chewing on it?

Another frequent discussion amongst vegans / meat-eaters. Their argument is that plants don't have a nervous system to feel pain etc. etc.

I read an article a few weeks back that said they've determined that peas communicate, and therefore could be considered sentient. I rolled my eyes. People have to eat SOMETHING. Please don't freak out the vegans and vegetarians by telling them peas are sentient.

Yeah, sure. I also heard that grass clippings are a warning sign to blades of grass to protect themselves.

Yep, the smell of freshly cut grass is grass calling out a warning. Plants don't have nervous systems like animals, but they do have their own versions. Look at how some plants respond to touch, touch a plant consistently on one side, and it will start growing more on the other side to get away from the obstruction. Some plants sense dowels and trellises to wrap around and climb up. Some are able to rotate and turn themselves toward light sources, and some respond to sounds. They also breathe. Plants are just as much alive as any animal.

Oh I thought the previous poster was joking! Apologies. This is fascinating.

Plants are incredibly complex and diverse. They have defense mechanisms, they have complex reproductive and communicative systems, they know when they are being attacked. Peanuts actually start life above ground, but then turn and bury themselves underground to protect against predators. We humans, of course, just rip them out of the ground anyway. :laugh:

BrokenButterfly

FIrst off I'd like to give a huge kudos to the OP who has been able to keep this thread on track with respecfful discussion among participants (except for the onsies and twosies (sorry if those aren't words lol) here and there who choose to be confrontational and defensive) I was fully expecting the thread to be locked by page 5! It's been very informative and I love when topics can be discussed, argued and defended in reasonable ways.

I've been a pescetarian for about 6 years, after doing a project in college on factory farms I decided to experiment with it and it was so easy that 6 years later I never went back to beef and poultry. My personal justification for still eating seafood is I know if it came down to it I could kill a fish, I don't think I could ever look a cow, chicken, pig etc in the face and kill it If I wouldn't be able to do the killing myself I don't think it's reasonable that I allow someone else to do it for me. But that's just MY logic for me.

I think a problem with seeking out and buying directly from organic/cage free/open range farms is that eventually if a lot of people did this, those small farms wouldn't be able to supply for the demand. We would end up back at square one.

I think from andethical and environmental stand point people should REDUCE their meat consumption but I don't believe eliminating the meat industry is a reasonable goal or solution.

I also don't judge other's diets, but don't mind having discussions about my choices and the benefits I've found.

I like the sound of your lifestyle and choices. I agree with the idea of reducing meat consumption. I think that the reason people eat so much of it is because it's produced to be in abundance for us.

iplayoutside19

Next time I see a hawk pluck a varmit out of a field I'll be sure to flag him down and tell him not to do that because it's "murder". I know hawks have good hearing, but so do house cats. My house cats don't listen when I give them lectures about leaving their snacks on the front porch. So, until those guys stop murdering other animals, I'm going to continue to eat meat. (Within my calorie/nutritional goal)

Gilbrod

No plant based foods contain B12 or cholesterol (which is needed to make testosterone and estrogen). Other than that, it just comes down to personal choice of whether or not you want to be vegan or a meat eater.

A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer/Group Fitness Instructor
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Always the one to be wise. :drinker:

khagador

No plant based foods contain B12 or cholesterol (which is needed to make testosterone and estrogen). Other than that, it just comes down to personal choice of whether or not you want to be vegan or a meat eater.

A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer/Group Fitness Instructor
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

I agree about it being personal choice, but there is vegan nutritional yeast, which is grown on molasses, that has B12. Or there are B12 supplements.

I think Marmite and Vegamite have high levels of B12. Never tried it myself but apparently it's used as a spread.

Where would one get cholesterol supplements that aren't animal based though?

Hehe, cholesterol supplements. And that's true. Don't we get all of our cholesterol from animals? Or can that be found in plants too?

There is no cholesterol in plants. Your body makes "good" cholesterol. Animal products are considered to have "bad" cholesterol. I don't know an instance where you would actually take a cholesterol supplement. It would probably be something to aid in the function of producing cholesterol and not a direct source.

BrokenButterfly

Another thing I thought about was, what would happen if in the future everyone DID stop eating meat and animal products? Baring in mind something like 95-99% of the population eat animal produce, with an ever-expanding human population, where on earth would we find the room to cultivate and grow so much food?!

Actually, it takes less resources and space to farm veggies than animals.

True ... but very soon we would be overrun by an animal population explosion. Of course, many of those animals would wind up.dying from disease and starvation ... so I guess it would balance out for a few years at a time.

Farm animals that are raised for meat are unable to survive on their own. If the entire world suddenly turned vegan, cattle (meat and dairy,) chickens, pigs, would all basically become extinct.

I was thinking more of already wild animals. But what you said also is wrong - which usually doesn't happen, actually. There are plenty of all those animals wild. Actually, wild and feral pigs are a massive problem in the south.

True. But what about animals that have been kept in the circle of being used in the industry for so long that there is the possibility they can't take care of themselves anymore? Like certain housepets for example.

khagador

Next time I see a hawk pluck a varmit out of a field I'll be sure to flag him down and tell him not to do that because it's "murder". I know hawks have good hearing, but so do house cats. My house cats don't listen when I give them lectures about leaving their snacks on the front porch. So, until those guys stop murdering other animals, I'm going to continue to each meat. (Within my calorie goal)

Hawks are hunters, so your post is pretty irrelevant to the fact that we have the ability to choose our diets. Hawks have no options other than what is their nature. It is not really our nature to mass produce and breed animals for slaughter.

BrokenButterfly

Next time I see a hawk pluck a varmit out of a field I'll be sure to flag him down and tell him not to do that because it's "murder". I know hawks have good hearing, but so do house cats. My house cats don't listen when I give them lectures about leaving their snacks on the front porch. So, until those guys stop murdering other animals, I'm going to continue to eat meat. (Within my calorie/nutritional goal)

I giggled. I presented the same sort of argument to the vegans I spoke to recently. I'm not really sure if they're against the idea of anything killing anything else or if it's just the way we 'harvest' animals for food.

lporter229

Interesting thread, but too long to go through all of it. I know these two issues (see below) were touched upon in this thread, but I am always curious about the opinions of people who opt to become vegans/vegetarians for ethical reasons. Please do not assume that I am being critical of your choice (I am not). I fully support and respect every individual's right to their own choices. I am more curious than anything.

1. Would you be willing to eat animals that are not raised for slaughter, such as wild caught seafood and/or wild caught game? Why or why not?

2. Do you use other animal products such as leather goods, wool, etc? Why or why not?

BrokenButterfly

No plant based foods contain B12 or cholesterol (which is needed to make testosterone and estrogen). Other than that, it just comes down to personal choice of whether or not you want to be vegan or a meat eater.

A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer/Group Fitness Instructor
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

I agree about it being personal choice, but there is vegan nutritional yeast, which is grown on molasses, that has B12. Or there are B12 supplements.

I think Marmite and Vegamite have high levels of B12. Never tried it myself but apparently it's used as a spread.

Where would one get cholesterol supplements that aren't animal based though?

Hehe, cholesterol supplements. And that's true. Don't we get all of our cholesterol from animals? Or can that be found in plants too?

There is no cholesterol in plants. Your body makes "good" cholesterol. Animal products are considered to have "bad" cholesterol. I don't know an instance where you would actually take a cholesterol supplement. It would probably be something to aid in the function of producing cholesterol and not a direct source.

I really don't know much about cholesterol at all. All I know is that we do need it.

tigersword

There are no benefits of meat. The reason vegans cannot "accept" your lifestyle is because it promotes murder, rape, and torture of living beings for the sole purpose of selfish human desire for taste. That is something I cannot and will not ever condone. Meat eating is cultural and that is why people get so defensive and feel under attack when all the evidence points to the lack of ethics in the choice to eat animal products. Scientific studies prove that humans do not need meat to survive and live a healthy lifestyle. Millions of vegans prove this by simply living their lives. Carnists view animals as objects and property, not creatures with thoughts or feelings or lives of their own. Carnists lack empathy and compassion, which in itself is inhuman.

Aaaaaaaand there we go. This conversation was going just fine without hyperbole, stereotypes, and assumptions.

I don't know what you're talking about. If you condone the murder of living creatures so you can say "yum, what a great steak" that's selfish and lacking empathy. No hyperbole here. Just because you're personally uncomfortable does not mean I'm wrong.

But ripping living plants out of the ground, or ripping and shredding them up with machinery is perfectly ok? Where do you draw the line on what is living or not, just your own personal opinion? How about fungi, they aren't plants, they're half animal, half plant. Yeast? Same thing. I notice you said living creatures. Plants are living creatures, and if you condone murdering and eating the unborn children of a poor apple tree, well then you're just a monster.

See, hyperbole, stereotypes, and assumptions.

spngebobmyhero

bump

BrokenButterfly

Interesting thread, but too long to go through all of it. I know these two issues (see below) were touched upon in this thread, but I am always curious about the opinions of people who opt to become vegans/vegetarians for ethical reasons. Please do not assume that I am being critical of your choice (I am not). I fully support and respect every individual's right to their own choices. I am more curious than anything.

1. Would you be willing to eat animals that are not raised for slaughter, such as wild caught seafood and/or wild caught game? Why or why not?

2. Do you use other animal products such as leather goods, wool, etc? Why or why not?

I love these questions. Vegans are against the use of animal products in any way. The degree of their beliefs is an individual thing. But as somone pointed out much earlier (which you would have definitely missed because this has become a long thread now) is that animal products are used in almost everything we use, including paint, gloss, glue...

carld256

1. Would you be willing to eat animals that are not raised for slaughter, such as wild caught seafood and/or wild caught game? Why or why not?

2. Do you use other animal products such as leather goods, wool, etc? Why or why not?

Both question have the same answer. No, it's not necessary to kill or farm animals to meet human needs. Also, yes, it's impossible to live in a modern society and not use animal products, since they're in so many things. But people can choose to reduce the exploitation of animals by the choices they make.

khagador

Interesting thread, but too long to go through all of it. I know these two issues (see below) were touched upon in this thread, but I am always curious about the opinions of people who opt to become vegans/vegetarians for ethical reasons. Please do not assume that I am being critical of your choice (I am not). I fully support and respect every individual's right to their own choices. I am more curious than anything.

1. Would you be willing to eat animals that are not raised for slaughter, such as wild caught seafood and/or wild caught game? Why or why not?

2. Do you use other animal products such as leather goods, wool, etc? Why or why not?

1. I would be opposed to it as long as I have a choice in the matter. I don't want to cause another being's suffering because I am more important than it. However, on a deserted island, yes, I would hunt and fish to preserve my existence.

2. I don't use any animal products knowingly. I do research companies who test their products on animals and steer clear of them. However, it is nearly impossible to know about every single product that is made. I do try my best to cause as little harm on others and the environment.

Bronx_Montgomery

I heard from a friend once. Meat is for the Man....Bones are for the dogs. wait is this the right topic?

doorki

This thread is rather long, so I was really willing to read it all and try to catch up as it keeps going.

Is the argument that humanity is not meant to eat meat or that we have evolved to the point in society that we should no longer eat meat?

_VoV

Another thing I thought about was, what would happen if in the future everyone DID stop eating meat and animal products? Baring in mind something like 95-99% of the population eat animal produce, with an ever-expanding human population, where on earth would we find the room to cultivate and grow so much food?!

Actually, it takes less resources and space to farm veggies than animals.

True ... but very soon we would be overrun by an animal population explosion. Of course, many of those animals would wind up.dying from disease and starvation ... so I guess it would balance out for a few years at a time.

Farm animals that are raised for meat are unable to survive on their own. If the entire world suddenly turned vegan, cattle (meat and dairy,) chickens, pigs, would all basically become extinct.

I was thinking more of already wild animals. But what you said also is wrong - which usually doesn't happen, actually. There are plenty of all those animals wild. Actually, wild and feral pigs are a massive problem in the south.

True. But what about animals that have been kept in the circle of being used in the industry for so long that there is the possibility they can't take care of themselves anymore? Like certain housepets for example.

In my mind, this worry about the world going vegan and suddenly being overrun by excess animals who are freed to live in the wild is nothing to worry about. Even something as simple as 'Meatless Mondays' taking off for a large part of the population is apt to drop the demand for meat. The cost of meat might go down temporarily, and then production would slack off some. I don't think the world would ever go veg*n like turning on a light switch, especially reading the many comments here from people who are meat-lovers with no intention to change.

BrokenButterfly

There are no benefits of meat. The reason vegans cannot "accept" your lifestyle is because it promotes murder, rape, and torture of living beings for the sole purpose of selfish human desire for taste. That is something I cannot and will not ever condone. Meat eating is cultural and that is why people get so defensive and feel under attack when all the evidence points to the lack of ethics in the choice to eat animal products. Scientific studies prove that humans do not need meat to survive and live a healthy lifestyle. Millions of vegans prove this by simply living their lives. Carnists view animals as objects and property, not creatures with thoughts or feelings or lives of their own. Carnists lack empathy and compassion, which in itself is inhuman.

Aaaaaaaand there we go. This conversation was going just fine without hyperbole, stereotypes, and assumptions.

I don't know what you're talking about. If you condone the murder of living creatures so you can say "yum, what a great steak" that's selfish and lacking empathy. No hyperbole here. Just because you're personally uncomfortable does not mean I'm wrong.

But ripping living plants out of the ground, or ripping and shredding them up with machinery is perfectly ok? Where do you draw the line on what is living or not, just your own personal opinion? How about fungi, they aren't plants, they're half animal, half plant. Yeast? Same thing. I notice you said living creatures. Plants are living creatures, and if you condone murdering and eating the unborn children of a poor apple tree, well then you're just a monster.

See, hyperbole, stereotypes, and assumptions.

The girls and guys I spoke to before would say how 'stupid' meat-eaters are for presenting this as an argument in the meat-eaters defence. An example:

"Oh and the argument that plants are living too and that what we do is wrong is not true. They do not have faces that have a choice to run away but cannot because we torture them. They produce fruit and vegetables and themselves without blood and pain."

Bronx_Montgomery

impyimpyaj

Another thing I thought about was, what would happen if in the future everyone DID stop eating meat and animal products? Baring in mind something like 95-99% of the population eat animal produce, with an ever-expanding human population, where on earth would we find the room to cultivate and grow so much food?!

Actually, it takes less resources and space to farm veggies than animals.

True ... but very soon we would be overrun by an animal population explosion. Of course, many of those animals would wind up.dying from disease and starvation ... so I guess it would balance out for a few years at a time.

Farm animals that are raised for meat are unable to survive on their own. If the entire world suddenly turned vegan, cattle (meat and dairy,) chickens, pigs, would all basically become extinct.

I was thinking more of already wild animals. But what you said also is wrong - which usually doesn't happen, actually. There are plenty of all those animals wild. Actually, wild and feral pigs are a massive problem in the south.

True. But what about animals that have been kept in the circle of being used in the industry for so long that there is the possibility they can't take care of themselves anymore? Like certain housepets for example.

In my mind, this worry about the world going vegan and suddenly being overrun by excess animals who are freed to live in the wild is nothing to worry about. Even something as simple as 'Meatless Mondays' taking off for a large part of the population is apt to drop the demand for meat. The cost of meat might go down temporarily, and then production would slack off some. I don't think the world would ever go veg*n like turning on a light switch, especially reading the many comments here from people who are meat-lovers with no intention to change.

I agree. Even if all cultures were to make the shift to vegetarianism/veganism, it wouldn't be like one day we all chow down on steak and the next day we're munching lettuce. It would be a gradual change, and as the demand for meat diminishes, the supply would dwindle as well.

BrokenButterfly

This thread is rather long, so I was really willing to read it all and try to catch up as it keeps going.

Is the argument that humanity is not meant to eat meat or that we have evolved to the point in society that we should no longer eat meat?

It's more in the direction of 'is meat beneficial to us as humans or does it cause more harm than it does good to our health and wellbeing?'

khagador

This thread is rather long, so I was really willing to read it all and try to catch up as it keeps going.

Is the argument that humanity is not meant to eat meat or that we have evolved to the point in society that we should no longer eat meat?

Great question! I think the point is that we as a society has evolved to the point that we have a choice in the matter. We are no longer reliant on meat for our sources of protein and we have made major advances in technology that allow us to choose our diets. So the question is really why we choose what we do.

khagador

This thread is rather long, so I was really willing to read it all and try to catch up as it keeps going.

Is the argument that humanity is not meant to eat meat or that we have evolved to the point in society that we should no longer eat meat?

It's more in the direction of 'is meat beneficial to us as humans or does it cause more harm than it does good to our health and wellbeing?'

This is a more eloquent way of putting it. Yes, this.

HelloSweetie4

I feel the same way about this as I do about religion. Do what you like, I will do my best to respect your views unless you're doing something that I am morally opposed to. I will try to remember your stance and bear that in mind, but cut me some slack if I forget.

If you try to force your way of life on me or ride me too much for not remembering some detail about how you want to live, well then I'll be the pr*ck that actively tries to piss you off and mocks you in public.

Also please pass the bacon.

^this^
I will not argue with vegetarians or vegans on who is right or wrong. I honestly don't care if others chose not to eat meat or whatever. What angers me is when they act smug or better than people who eat meat. I am certainly not saying all vegans are like this. I have plenty of vegan and vegetarian friends. We respect eachothers diets and don't question it.
But this topic is a lot like a religious belief issues. Most people can get along without a problem, but there's always those people that believe that their way is the right way and everyone should follow them. I do not like people that preach to me about anything and I will certainly let you know if you are irritating me with trying to get me to change my ways. The fact that I eat meat, does not directly effect your life so you shouldn't act like I am hurting you in some way because of what I eat.

gastankerdriver

If you place a baby rabbit in front of a "meat eater," it will invariably pounce on it, grip it with sharp claw and proceed to rip it to shreds with canines and a mouth filled with sharp (not flat) teeth, then will proceed to eat the entire thing, hair, bones, etc. raw (no cooking, no baking, no putting it in the microwave), then burp and go to sleep. Strangely, humans are the only meat eaters who can't engage in this kind of behavior. Eating raw meat will make us sick. Who wants to rip a baby rabbit to shreds and devour it. We want to cuddle it. We don't have sharp teeth and claws like other meat eaters. The truth is that we are closer to the primates who are 95% herbivore, but eat small amounts of insects and bugs. Primates have flat teeth for grinding. They have long complicated digestive systems for digesting complex carbohydrates. I am not a vegan, but I go make an effort to minimize the amount of animal proteins I ingest. We are not designed to eat enormous amounts of animal protein. It clogs our system and becomes abrasive, leading to lesions that turn into polyps that ultimately become cancerous. 20% of men over the age of 50 contract colon cancer. Is that natural?

carld256

[images snipped]

Was that really necessary? You know it's possible to have an intelligent discussion without resorting to veg-bashing. And people wonder why people who don't eat meat get defensive.

Shock_Wave

Delete

MeMyCatsandI

Next time I see a hawk pluck a varmit out of a field I'll be sure to flag him down and tell him not to do that because it's "murder". I know hawks have good hearing, but so do house cats. My house cats don't listen when I give them lectures about leaving their snacks on the front porch. So, until those guys stop murdering other animals, I'm going to continue to eat meat. (Within my calorie/nutritional goal)

I'm actually trying to get my cats to eat MORE meat by switching them to a raw diet. So far, no luck. Maybe if I were to lead by example. Now where is that smiley who's eating a big, fat steak? Huh, I guess this will have to do! :bigsmile: