Meat eating vs. Vegan debate

impyimpyaj

Agreed!!! Some form of animal products is need in our diet but it doesn't have to be meat. It can be milk, egg, cheese, yogurt etc that will fulfill Vitamin B12 requirement

You do not NEED animal products in your diet to be healthy. It's already been stated, but there are other ways to get B12. Such as a supplement.

But how did people get their B12 before supplements were invented? I'm not being confrontational, it's something that I've seriously thought about. And what are B12 supplements made from?

TheWinman

The extremists are out and posting in this topic now. What a way to ruin a good informative thread.

cannonsky

I tried being vegan... but the truth is I how meat tastes way too much and dislike many of the protein sources for vegans. That being said....they should really find ways to treat animals more humanely and be feeding them their proper diets (NOT CORN). That would go a long way.

Other than that all I can say it what I say about almost any other debate... I will respect your opinion unless you have no valid reasons for having that opinion, or until you try to convert me or you attack my opinion. No one has the right to tell another person what they can and can't eat. It's plain and simple.

bcattoes

There are no benefits of meat. The reason vegans cannot "accept" your lifestyle is because it promotes murder, rape, and torture of living beings for the sole purpose of selfish human desire for taste. That is something I cannot and will not ever condone. Meat eating is cultural and that is why people get so defensive and feel under attack when all the evidence points to the lack of ethics in the choice to eat animal products. Scientific studies prove that humans do not need meat to survive and live a healthy lifestyle. Millions of vegans prove this by simply living their lives. Carnists view animals as objects and property, not creatures with thoughts or feelings or lives of their own. Carnists lack empathy and compassion, which in itself is inhuman.

According to both dictionary.com and merriam-webster.com, "carnist" is not a word.

http://www.carnism.com/carnism.htm

Oh well, if someone created an internet site using the word then all the dictionaries must just be wrong, I guess. :huh:

kgeldreich

If you want to rely on amazing and insightful "real people" gems such as "Cows need to be milk and get stressed if they are not, its a relief for them when they are milked." go ahead. I'll stick with info from people who actually have had training/education and do research.

susannamarie

Farm animals that are raised for meat are unable to survive on their own. If the entire world suddenly turned vegan, cattle (meat and dairy,) chickens, pigs, would all basically become extinct.

Mmm, not really.

Pigs go feral extremely easily and quickly. They're a huge problem in some states.
Holsteins would have some serious issues, but more primitive breeds of dairy cows and many of the beef cows would do okay if we reserved a range for them. Beef cows that have been accustomed to a management-intensive style of life probably wouldn't.
Sheep, on the other hand, are far too stupid to survive on their own unless it's like an isolated island :P

Yes, but setting aside lands just for cows would kind of go eliminate the advantage of having more room by not eating cows, wouldn't it? Besides, who would give up their land, so that cows would have a place to live? Ranchers? Doubt it, they'd convert their land to something that they could profit from. Farmers, who essentially wiped out the natural habitats of cattle and buffalo to build their farms a couple hundred years ago? Nope, won't happen there, either, as that completely kills the concept. Cows wouldn't have anywhere to go. Most breeds of chicken have been cross bred for meat yield, and would absolutely not survive, as most of them can barely even walk, and certainly can't fly any more. Some pigs would be abler to survive, again, some breeds wouldn't. No matter how you look at it, it would still mean the assured death of billions of animals, and entire species.

While I agree with you on the billions of animals, I don't believe the species would go extinct. Many breeds of cows are still adapted to running on scrubland, and many of the heritage breeds of chickens would do just fine. When we moved out of Wisconsin, we had a strain of feral chickens (mostly ameraucana heritage) on our farm that had been propagating themselves for several years. Their flying ability had developed amazingly. 'course, we never did make a concerted effort to root them out. Furthermore, there will always be wildlife parks, and animals (other than sheep, because they are brain-dead) could fit into them just fine.

Note: I'm not for the idea. I'm not a vegan. But 'the animals will go extinct' isn't really a good argument against it. There are plenty of good arguments, why use that one? :P

BrokenButterfly

There are no benefits of meat. The reason vegans cannot "accept" your lifestyle is because it promotes murder, rape, and torture of living beings for the sole purpose of selfish human desire for taste. That is something I cannot and will not ever condone. Meat eating is cultural and that is why people get so defensive and feel under attack when all the evidence points to the lack of ethics in the choice to eat animal products. Scientific studies prove that humans do not need meat to survive and live a healthy lifestyle. Millions of vegans prove this by simply living their lives. Carnists view animals as objects and property, not creatures with thoughts or feelings or lives of their own. Carnists lack empathy and compassion, which in itself is inhuman.

According to both dictionary.com and merriam-webster.com, "carnist" is not a word.

http://www.carnism.com/carnism.htm

Oh well, if someone created an internet site using the word then all the dictionaries must just be wrong, I guess. :huh:

Amazeballs is used all the time and probably not in the dictionary... yet. Language is always being enhanced and developed. Please don't be mean when someone is just presenting their defence.

inraptorswetrust

There are no benefits of meat. The reason vegans cannot "accept" your lifestyle is because it promotes murder, rape, and torture of living beings for the sole purpose of selfish human desire for taste. That is something I cannot and will not ever condone. Meat eating is cultural and that is why people get so defensive and feel under attack when all the evidence points to the lack of ethics in the choice to eat animal products. Scientific studies prove that humans do not need meat to survive and live a healthy lifestyle. Millions of vegans prove this by simply living their lives. Carnists view animals as objects and property, not creatures with thoughts or feelings or lives of their own. Carnists lack empathy and compassion, which in itself is inhuman.

Aaaaaaaand there we go. This conversation was going just fine without hyperbole, stereotypes, and assumptions.

I don't know what you're talking about. If you condone the murder of living creatures so you can say "yum, what a great steak" that's selfish and lacking empathy. No hyperbole here. Just because you're personally uncomfortable does not mean I'm wrong.

I'm quite comfortable. Nobody's attacking vegans here. It's a conversation. For every scientific study that says humans don't need meat, there's another that says we do. It all depends on the researcher and what they want to prove. Who knows which side is right?

If you don't eat meat for moral reasons, then really, that's awesome. I'm glad that you feel strongly about something and stand up for what you believe is right. But just as I'm not going to go around telling everybody who isn't Christian that they're heathens and going to hell, you might want to think about your tone when talking to people about this particular matter. You want to convert people? Awesome! Go for it. But do it with love. People aren't often swayed by confrontational language.

How cute. You're trying to derail me with the tone argument. I go about it with love and compassion for those who humans refuse to acknowledge. I cannot respect a lifestyle choice I find so horrific. I hope one day you (and everyone else on this thread) finds the compassion to make a positive change in their lives and the lives of others.

VeganInTraining

["Most" omnivores are not using soy formula for their babies.

sorry I meant many

impyimpyaj

There are no benefits of meat. The reason vegans cannot "accept" your lifestyle is because it promotes murder, rape, and torture of living beings for the sole purpose of selfish human desire for taste. That is something I cannot and will not ever condone. Meat eating is cultural and that is why people get so defensive and feel under attack when all the evidence points to the lack of ethics in the choice to eat animal products. Scientific studies prove that humans do not need meat to survive and live a healthy lifestyle. Millions of vegans prove this by simply living their lives. Carnists view animals as objects and property, not creatures with thoughts or feelings or lives of their own. Carnists lack empathy and compassion, which in itself is inhuman.

Aaaaaaaand there we go. This conversation was going just fine without hyperbole, stereotypes, and assumptions.

I don't know what you're talking about. If you condone the murder of living creatures so you can say "yum, what a great steak" that's selfish and lacking empathy. No hyperbole here. Just because you're personally uncomfortable does not mean I'm wrong.

I'm quite comfortable. Nobody's attacking vegans here. It's a conversation. For every scientific study that says humans don't need meat, there's another that says we do. It all depends on the researcher and what they want to prove. Who knows which side is right?

If you don't eat meat for moral reasons, then really, that's awesome. I'm glad that you feel strongly about something and stand up for what you believe is right. But just as I'm not going to go around telling everybody who isn't Christian that they're heathens and going to hell, you might want to think about your tone when talking to people about this particular matter. You want to convert people? Awesome! Go for it. But do it with love. People aren't often swayed by confrontational language.

How cute. You're trying to derail me with the tone argument. I go about it with love and compassion for those who humans refuse to acknowledge. I cannot respect a lifestyle choice I find so horrific. I hope one day you (and everyone else on this thread) finds the compassion to make a positive change in their lives and the lives of others.

I'm not trying to derail you. I'm saying, if you feel so strongly, find a way to actually get your message across instead of being confrontational. I'm always willing to listen to opposing viewpoints, when those viewpoints are stated respectfully. If you choose not to be respectful, that's fine, but you're probably not going to convince many people. And thanks, but my life is good. I treat others with compassion. And respect. Even when I disagree with them.

darkling_glory

But how did people get their B12 before supplements were invented? I'm not being confrontational, it's something that I've seriously thought about. And what are B12 supplements made from?

I posted this on PAGE TWO - but it got overlooked. Here it is, this is how people used to get B12.

the main argument is this: ONLY animal based foods contain vitamin B12. B12 deficiency is one of the leading causes of dementia in elderly adults and is one of the key "brain foods" we consume. you can supplement it, sure, but i'm just sayin'.

This is false. Or, at least not completely true.

B12 is found in soil/dirt. Because animals eat plants that grow in dirt, they absorb the B12 and then pass it on to people who eat the animals.

People *used* to get plenty of B12 just from eating fruit and vegetables. The soil was full of B12 and some of that transferred to the veg. Nowadays, soil is very depleted. Plus, people go crazy washing their fruit and veg with rinses and such. We don't get *as much* B12 from fruit and veg as we used to.

But you can EASILY supplement B12 with fortified foods - tofu, non-dairy milks, etc... Or you can work nutritional yeast into your diet in the form of a topping for foods or as it's own sauce, etc. There are PLENTY of ways to get B12 without eating meat.

I get my bloodwork done every year (as a vegan, I believe this is important). I've never had a deficiency in any areas. I take a vegan multi-vitamin and eat nutrional yeast once a week or so. I'm a very healthy person.

You can be healthy by eating meat or by not eating meat. For me, it's a moral issue. I can be healthy without the meat so there is no reason for me to contribute to the death of an animal for sustenance. That's all there is too it!

BrokenButterfly

If you want to rely on amazing and insightful "real people" gems such as "Cows need to be milk and get stressed if they are not, its a relief for them when they are milked." go ahead. I'll stick with info from people who actually have had training/education and do research.

Some of those people are joining the discussion. I just like to hear the opinions of others. And besides, discussions like this may raise their understanding of things that they've never thought about before.

hallie_b

There are no benefits of meat. The reason vegans cannot "accept" your lifestyle is because it promotes murder, rape, and torture of living beings for the sole purpose of selfish human desire for taste. That is something I cannot and will not ever condone. Meat eating is cultural and that is why people get so defensive and feel under attack when all the evidence points to the lack of ethics in the choice to eat animal products. Scientific studies prove that humans do not need meat to survive and live a healthy lifestyle. Millions of vegans prove this by simply living their lives. Carnists view animals as objects and property, not creatures with thoughts or feelings or lives of their own. Carnists lack empathy and compassion, which in itself is inhuman.

Aaaaaaaand there we go. This conversation was going just fine without hyperbole, stereotypes, and assumptions.

I don't know what you're talking about. If you condone the murder of living creatures so you can say "yum, what a great steak" that's selfish and lacking empathy. No hyperbole here. Just because you're personally uncomfortable does not mean I'm wrong.

I'm quite comfortable. Nobody's attacking vegans here. It's a conversation. For every scientific study that says humans don't need meat, there's another that says we do. It all depends on the researcher and what they want to prove. Who knows which side is right?

If you don't eat meat for moral reasons, then really, that's awesome. I'm glad that you feel strongly about something and stand up for what you believe is right. But just as I'm not going to go around telling everybody who isn't Christian that they're heathens and going to hell, you might want to think about your tone when talking to people about this particular matter. You want to convert people? Awesome! Go for it. But do it with love. People aren't often swayed by confrontational language.

How cute. You're trying to derail me with the tone argument. I go about it with love and compassion for those who humans refuse to acknowledge. I cannot respect a lifestyle choice I find so horrific. I hope one day you (and everyone else on this thread) finds the compassion to make a positive change in their lives and the lives of others.

I'm not trying to derail you. I'm saying, if you feel so strongly, find a way to actually get your message across instead of being confrontational. I'm always willing to listen to opposing viewpoints, when those viewpoints are stated respectfully. If you choose not to be respectful, that's fine, but you're probably not going to convince many people. And thanks, but my life is good. I treat others with compassion. And respect. Even when I disagree with them.

Can we give this part of the thread up now and get back to business?

impyimpyaj

But how did people get their B12 before supplements were invented? I'm not being confrontational, it's something that I've seriously thought about. And what are B12 supplements made from?

I posted this on PAGE TWO - but it got overlooked. Here it is, this is how people used to get B12.

the main argument is this: ONLY animal based foods contain vitamin B12. B12 deficiency is one of the leading causes of dementia in elderly adults and is one of the key "brain foods" we consume. you can supplement it, sure, but i'm just sayin'.

This is false. Or, at least not completely true.

B12 is found in soil/dirt. Because animals eat plants that grow in dirt, they absorb the B12 and then pass it on to people who eat the animals.

People *used* to get plenty of B12 just from eating fruit and vegetables. The soil was full of B12 and some of that transferred to the veg. Nowadays, soil is very depleted. Plus, people go crazy washing their fruit and veg with rinses and such. We don't get *as much* B12 from fruit and veg as we used to.

But you can EASILY supplement B12 with fortified foods - tofu, non-dairy milks, etc... Or you can work nutritional yeast into your diet in the form of a topping for foods or as it's own sauce, etc. There are PLENTY of ways to get B12 without eating meat.

I get my bloodwork done every year (as a vegan, I believe this is important). I've never had a deficiency in any areas. I take a vegan multi-vitamin and eat nutrional yeast once a week or so. I'm a very healthy person.

You can be healthy by eating meat or by not eating meat. For me, it's a moral issue. I can be healthy without the meat so there is no reason for me to contribute to the death of an animal for sustenance. That's all there is too it!

Thanks! This thread did get away from me. I probably missed a lot. Thanks for taking the time to repost for me. That makes a lot of sense, actually.

momtokgo

Agreed!!! Some form of animal products is need in our diet but it doesn't have to be meat. It can be milk, egg, cheese, yogurt etc that will fulfill Vitamin B12 requirement

You do not NEED animal products in your diet to be healthy. It's already been stated, but there are other ways to get B12. Such as a supplement.

But how did people get their B12 before supplements were invented? I'm not being confrontational, it's something that I've seriously thought about. And what are B12 supplements made from?

I Google it because I had no idea, and supplements are vegan, unless there is gelatin in the capsules. And before supplements? No idea.

_VoV

But how did people get their B12 before supplements were invented? I'm not being confrontational, it's something that I've seriously thought about. And what are B12 supplements made from?

I posted this on PAGE TWO - but it got overlooked. Here it is, this is how people used to get B12.

the main argument is this: ONLY animal based foods contain vitamin B12. B12 deficiency is one of the leading causes of dementia in elderly adults and is one of the key "brain foods" we consume. you can supplement it, sure, but i'm just sayin'.

This is false. Or, at least not completely true.

B12 is found in soil/dirt. Because animals eat plants that grow in dirt, they absorb the B12 and then pass it on to people who eat the animals.

People *used* to get plenty of B12 just from eating fruit and vegetables. The soil was full of B12 and some of that transferred to the veg. Nowadays, soil is very depleted. Plus, people go crazy washing their fruit and veg with rinses and such. We don't get *as much* B12 from fruit and veg as we used to.

But you can EASILY supplement B12 with fortified foods - tofu, non-dairy milks, etc... Or you can work nutritional yeast into your diet in the form of a topping for foods or as it's own sauce, etc. There are PLENTY of ways to get B12 without eating meat.

I get my bloodwork done every year (as a vegan, I believe this is important). I've never had a deficiency in any areas. I take a vegan multi-vitamin and eat nutrional yeast once a week or so. I'm a very healthy person.

You can be healthy by eating meat or by not eating meat. For me, it's a moral issue. I can be healthy without the meat so there is no reason for me to contribute to the death of an animal for sustenance. That's all there is too it!

Just to add to this discussion, here's how vitamin B12 supplements are made: Industrial production of B12 is through fermentation of selected microorganisms.[35] Streptomyces griseus, a bacterium once thought to be a yeast, was the commercial source of vitamin B12 for many years.[36][37] The species Pseudomonas denitrificans and Propionibacterium shermanii are more commonly used today

impyimpyaj

But how did people get their B12 before supplements were invented? I'm not being confrontational, it's something that I've seriously thought about. And what are B12 supplements made from?

I posted this on PAGE TWO - but it got overlooked. Here it is, this is how people used to get B12.

the main argument is this: ONLY animal based foods contain vitamin B12. B12 deficiency is one of the leading causes of dementia in elderly adults and is one of the key "brain foods" we consume. you can supplement it, sure, but i'm just sayin'.

This is false. Or, at least not completely true.

B12 is found in soil/dirt. Because animals eat plants that grow in dirt, they absorb the B12 and then pass it on to people who eat the animals.

People *used* to get plenty of B12 just from eating fruit and vegetables. The soil was full of B12 and some of that transferred to the veg. Nowadays, soil is very depleted. Plus, people go crazy washing their fruit and veg with rinses and such. We don't get *as much* B12 from fruit and veg as we used to.

But you can EASILY supplement B12 with fortified foods - tofu, non-dairy milks, etc... Or you can work nutritional yeast into your diet in the form of a topping for foods or as it's own sauce, etc. There are PLENTY of ways to get B12 without eating meat.

I get my bloodwork done every year (as a vegan, I believe this is important). I've never had a deficiency in any areas. I take a vegan multi-vitamin and eat nutrional yeast once a week or so. I'm a very healthy person.

You can be healthy by eating meat or by not eating meat. For me, it's a moral issue. I can be healthy without the meat so there is no reason for me to contribute to the death of an animal for sustenance. That's all there is too it!

Just to add to this discussion, here's how vitamin B12 supplements are made: Industrial production of B12 is through fermentation of selected microorganisms.[35] Streptomyces griseus, a bacterium once thought to be a yeast, was the commercial source of vitamin B12 for many years.[36][37] The species Pseudomonas denitrificans and Propionibacterium shermanii are more commonly used today

That makes sense too. I know the pseudomonas bacterium lives in the dirt, so it would make sense that vegetables that are allowed to ripen in the dirt would contain B12, since that's what they use to make the supplement.

darkling_glory

Welcome! It's something I researched before going vegan, so glad I could help!

BrokenButterfly

There are no benefits of meat. The reason vegans cannot "accept" your lifestyle is because it promotes murder, rape, and torture of living beings for the sole purpose of selfish human desire for taste. That is something I cannot and will not ever condone. Meat eating is cultural and that is why people get so defensive and feel under attack when all the evidence points to the lack of ethics in the choice to eat animal products. Scientific studies prove that humans do not need meat to survive and live a healthy lifestyle. Millions of vegans prove this by simply living their lives. Carnists view animals as objects and property, not creatures with thoughts or feelings or lives of their own. Carnists lack empathy and compassion, which in itself is inhuman.

Aaaaaaaand there we go. This conversation was going just fine without hyperbole, stereotypes, and assumptions.

I don't know what you're talking about. If you condone the murder of living creatures so you can say "yum, what a great steak" that's selfish and lacking empathy. No hyperbole here. Just because you're personally uncomfortable does not mean I'm wrong.

I'm quite comfortable. Nobody's attacking vegans here. It's a conversation. For every scientific study that says humans don't need meat, there's another that says we do. It all depends on the researcher and what they want to prove. Who knows which side is right?

If you don't eat meat for moral reasons, then really, that's awesome. I'm glad that you feel strongly about something and stand up for what you believe is right. But just as I'm not going to go around telling everybody who isn't Christian that they're heathens and going to hell, you might want to think about your tone when talking to people about this particular matter. You want to convert people? Awesome! Go for it. But do it with love. People aren't often swayed by confrontational language.

How cute. You're trying to derail me with the tone argument. I go about it with love and compassion for those who humans refuse to acknowledge. I cannot respect a lifestyle choice I find so horrific. I hope one day you (and everyone else on this thread) finds the compassion to make a positive change in their lives and the lives of others.

I'm not trying to derail you. I'm saying, if you feel so strongly, find a way to actually get your message across instead of being confrontational. I'm always willing to listen to opposing viewpoints, when those viewpoints are stated respectfully. If you choose not to be respectful, that's fine, but you're probably not going to convince many people. And thanks, but my life is good. I treat others with compassion. And respect. Even when I disagree with them.

Can we give this part of the thread up now and get back to business?

Seconded! Do not reply to anything that may cause an actual argument. It's best to just let it go, because that's their opinion which they are entitled to.

jmruef

I love meat and honestly haven't ever given much thought to the whole free range/animal cruelty side of it. For me personally: They're animals and they taste good. Do I respect vegetarians/vegans? Absolutely. I've had vegetarian/vegan cooking and it can be really tasty. I have friends who choose to be vegans for a number of reasons. One in particular when I was in college used to give me friendly cr*p about eating flesh, and I would give her friendly cr*p about eating rabbit food. We'd smile and chow down on our respective meals.

I really feel that at the end of the day no one has it completely figured out, in terms of the best/healthiest diet. All we can do is the best we can do to feed our bodies and walk around in our skin a little longer. What works for me is eating animal products in conjunction with a lot of other things that taste good and give me nutrients.

To each their own. I really don't judge people on what they eat. (Well, my DH is icky because he likes liver sausage...:sick: KIDDING.)