Meat eating vs. Vegan debate

HeatherWestgate

the main argument is this: ONLY animal based foods contain vitamin B12. B12 deficiency is one of the leading causes of dementia in elderly adults and is one of the key "brain foods" we consume. you can supplement it, sure, but i'm just sayin'.

THis is completely false, there are plant based ways to get B12 if you actually do some research and eat a varied diet.
I am Vegan, take no supplements and have no issues with protein, iron and B12 defficiencies.

It's a total marketing gimmick to say that eating meat is the only way to get complete nutrition, if you look into it it's the meat and dairy industries who fund all these studies. Wonder why they'd come up with those finding, cause they want your money.

BrokenButterfly

LOL I'm a semi vegan... or actually I think it's technically called a flexitarian, because I try my hardest to only eat vegan,but occasionally I'll have some cheese or an egg.

I have no problems with meat, or people who eat meat. I have no problems with people who don't eat meat, or people who don't eat reg meat but will eat eggs, milk, fish... the reason I don't have problems with them is that that is THEIR CHOICE!!! very simple...... my choice vs not my choice...

what I do have a problem with is the morally superior attitude many vegan, vegetarians and even pescatarians have.

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There was an argument about 'choice' and how the animals we harvest for food don't have a choice etc. etc.. It's just one big ethical dilemma. Whereby the vast majority of people don't really feel that this is an argument for them. Which makes some vegans angry.

Aleciajones

People who breed rabbits for consumption will also cuddle the babies...they're cute, and so tasty.

kylesmommy89

I ARE CARNIVORE! :P I would never give up my tasty burgers and steaks. I LOVE my meat. I'm not at all "anti-vegan" though. I really don't care about what other people eat and I think it's pretty silly that some do.

cfregon

I'm not a vegan, but I am a vegetarian. I eat some animal products but no flesh or fat (I'll indulge in dairy, and that's about as far as I go). I don;t do it for ethical or health reasons- I'm one of the few people I've found that turned vegetarian for the same reasons. I don't know the cause (genetic or otherwise), but a number of people, once they get into their twenties start to have a complete aversion to meats that can't be controlled. For me, the smell and taste of meat is bitter and rotten. If I taste meat I actually get sick (it's been unfortunate, especially because restaurants don't always keep their meat products separate from other foods as well as they should). I understand why different people make the choices to have certain diets, just as I do.

I've actually been complemented by friends before because I never say anything about them eating meat at our shared meals. Like many on this board though, I have to express frustration with the frequency of questions and comments surrounding what I eat, especially in the lunch room at work. It's also unfortunate that people are not very sensitive to my diet. All over the place, family gatherings, work dinners, friend's houses, everyone is super sensitive to those with diabetes, allergies, and other dietary conditions, but they easily ignore mine. I've gone to Easter dinner at my family's and all I could eat was the dinner bread because everything was infused with meat somehow (even the mashed potatoes and the pasta salad, which could have easily been okay).

That being said, I have no problem with anyone's dietary choices, as long as it doesn't affect me or get pushed on me. I just wish that everyone took the time to educate themselves on these sorts of issues, and that they would be a little bit more aware of us (non-meat eaters) and the effects their actions can have on us. There's a very large population of vegans and vegetarians in the world (either for religious/ethical, or medical reasons), as well as others that have dietary restrictions (like Hindus, Muslims, SDA's, Diabetics, Celiac's, IBS, etc)....I don't see why it all has to be such a big deal, when just understanding and acceptance would be easier.

tsh0ck

To a degree, I get those opposed because of how animals are raised, etc. Anti-hunting, though, makes no sense. Did several research papers in school years ago, and am also a hunter. So will admit a bias. But take away hunters, and you will have a really big problem with overpopulation. Particularly in deer, but even antelope and elk.

That's why fwp figures out population numbers in every region before deciding how many animals can be taken. It is all based on sustainability. Too many animals will lead to not only disease and starvation, but also many more deaths of people on the roadways.

Add to that the fact that hunters, in general, put more money and time into environmental efforts than any other group, and it seems to me that this is a pretty important thing in society.

tigersword

No plant based foods contain B12 or cholesterol (which is needed to make testosterone and estrogen). Other than that, it just comes down to personal choice of whether or not you want to be vegan or a meat eater.

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I agree about it being personal choice, but there is vegan nutritional yeast, which is grown on molasses, that has B12. Or there are B12 supplements.

I think Marmite and Vegamite have high levels of B12. Never tried it myself but apparently it's used as a spread.

Where would one get cholesterol supplements that aren't animal based though?

Hehe, cholesterol supplements. And that's true. Don't we get all of our cholesterol from animals? Or can that be found in plants too?

There is no cholesterol in plants. Your body makes "good" cholesterol. Animal products are considered to have "bad" cholesterol. I don't know an instance where you would actually take a cholesterol supplement. It would probably be something to aid in the function of producing cholesterol and not a direct source.

I really don't know much about cholesterol at all. All I know is that we do need it.

Coconut oil

OH yes and nutritional yeast has vitamin B12, people are just not educated enough, they think they know what they're taking about like meat is the only thing that has vitamin B12 but obviously thats not true....people read that meat is the only thing that has it and believe it

Nutritional yeast is a MANUFACTURED product. Can someone eating a vegan lifestyle use it to get B12? Yes. Is it something you can get in the wild? No.

Because nutritional yeast is often used by vegans, who usually need to supplement their diets with vitamin B12, there has been confusion about the source of the B12 in nutritional yeast. Although yeast is closer to animals than plants in their genome and metabolism, they cannot produce B12, which is only naturally produced by bacteria. Some brands of nutritional yeast, though not all, are fortified with vitamin B12. When fortified, the vitamin B12 is produced separately (commonly Cyanocobalamin) and then added to the yeast.

That's another thing I've always wondered, yeast are much more animal than plant, why is it ok for a vegan to kill and eat yeast?

susannamarie

I've actually been complemented by friends before because I never say anything about them eating meat at our shared meals. Like many on this board though, I have to express frustration with the frequency of questions and comments surrounding what I eat, especially in the lunch room at work. It's also unfortunate that people are not very sensitive to my diet. All over the place, family gatherings, work dinners, friend's houses, everyone is super sensitive to those with diabetes, allergies, and other dietary conditions, but they easily ignore mine. I've gone to Easter dinner at my family's and all I could eat was the dinner bread because everything was infused with meat somehow (even the mashed potatoes and the pasta salad, which could have easily been okay).

See, and this kind of thing bothers the hell out of me. I don't see why you wouldn't, for a family member, leave the meat out of a few dishes so that there's something they could eat. I could understand 'well, the rest of us are having ham', but I really don't understand not leaving meat out of a FEW dishes.

BrokenButterfly

I'm not a vegan, but I am a vegetarian. I eat some animal products but no flesh or fat (I'll indulge in dairy, and that's about as far as I go). I don;t do it for ethical or health reasons- I'm one of the few people I've found that turned vegetarian for the same reasons. I don't know the cause (genetic or otherwise), but a number of people, once they get into their twenties start to have a complete aversion to meats that can't be controlled. For me, the smell and taste of meat is bitter and rotten. If I taste meat I actually get sick (it's been unfortunate, especially because restaurants don't always keep their meat products separate from other foods as well as they should). I understand why different people make the choices to have certain diets, just as I do.

I've actually been complemented by friends before because I never say anything about them eating meat at our shared meals. Like many on this board though, I have to express frustration with the frequency of questions and comments surrounding what I eat, especially in the lunch room at work. It's also unfortunate that people are not very sensitive to my diet. All over the place, family gatherings, work dinners, friend's houses, everyone is super sensitive to those with diabetes, allergies, and other dietary conditions, but they easily ignore mine. I've gone to Easter dinner at my family's and all I could eat was the dinner bread because everything was infused with meat somehow (even the mashed potatoes and the pasta salad, which could have easily been okay).

That being said, I have no problem with anyone's dietary choices, as long as it doesn't affect me or get pushed on me. I just wish that everyone took the time to educate themselves on these sorts of issues, and that they would be a little bit more aware of us (non-meat eaters) and the effects their actions can have on us. There's a very large population of vegans and vegetarians in the world (either for religious/ethical, or medical reasons), as well as others that have dietary restrictions (like Hindus, Muslims, SDA's, Diabetics, Celiac's, IBS, etc)....I don't see why it all has to be such a big deal, when just understanding and acceptance would be easier.

Well i'm hoping that other posters in this thread are feeling a little more educated! Unfortunately it's one of those debates we can't really solve yet. It must be so frustrating that so many people feel they need to criticise a vegan or vegetarian diet. I'm a meat-eater. But I saw what it was like for a vegetarian when I went on holiday with one to Japan a couple of years ago. Almost everything had meat in it in some way.

live2dream

I'd just like to point out that machines used in agriculture kills thousands of animals a year. I know a lot of people are vegan because they don't want to harm animals, but the truth is that unless you grow all of your food yourself and harvest it in a way that doesn't kill anything (hand picking it, basically), you're harming animals.

Most vegans know it's impossible to NEVER harm any animals, ever. We just try to inflict the LEAST amount of harm and suffering that we can. That's all.

Rhea30

If you place a baby rabbit in front of a "meat eater," it will invariably pounce on it, grip it with sharp claw and proceed to rip it to shreds with canines and a mouth filled with sharp (not flat) teeth, then will proceed to eat the entire thing, hair, bones, etc. raw (no cooking, no baking, no putting it in the microwave), then burp and go to sleep. Strangely, humans are the only meat eaters who can't engage in this kind of behavior. Eating raw meat will make us sick. Who wants to rip a baby rabbit to shreds and devour it. We want to cuddle it. We don't have sharp teeth and claws like other meat eaters. The truth is that we are closer to the primates who are 95% herbivore, but eat small amounts of insects and bugs. Primates have flat teeth for grinding. They have long complicated digestive systems for digesting complex carbohydrates. I am not a vegan, but I go make an effort to minimize the amount of animal proteins I ingest. We are not designed to eat enormous amounts of animal protein. It clogs our system and becomes abrasive, leading to lesions that turn into polyps that ultimately become cancerous. 20% of men over the age of 50 contract colon cancer. Is that natural?

The primates that we are close too, apes, are omnivores, they eat meat and plants. Trust me, you don't want one of them coming at you with their teeth. Also, if we are so made to be herbivores, why do we have a very small cecum? BTW, eating raw meat can make many types of animals sick if they are not used to it.

Aleciajones

To a degree, I get those opposed because of how animals are raised, etc. Anti-hunting, though, makes no sense. Did several research papers in school years ago, and am also a hunter. So will admit a bias. But take away hunters, and you will have a really big problem with overpopulation. Particularly in deer, but even antelope and elk.

That's why fwp figures out population numbers in every region before deciding how many animals can be taken. It is all based on sustainability. Too many animals will lead to not only disease and starvation, but also many more deaths of people on the roadways.

Add to that the fact that hunters, in general, put more money and time into environmental efforts than any other group, and it seems to me that this is a pretty important thing in society.

I thought the same thing when I was reading about so many farm animals dying off being unable to survive on their own. The wild animals that are currently hunted would go through the roof!
Hunters (atleast the ones I associate with, there are of course terrible ones) will use all of the animal. Organs go to the dogs, hide they tan themselves or give to someone who can, bones make broth and can then also go to dogs. It's usually a quick death after the animal had a fairly good life, compared to a factory style farm situation.

Rhea30

I'd just like to point out that machines used in agriculture kills thousands of animals a year. I know a lot of people are vegan because they don't want to harm animals, but the truth is that unless you grow all of your food yourself and harvest it in a way that doesn't kill anything (hand picking it, basically), you're harming animals.

Most vegans know it's impossible to NEVER harm any animals, ever. We just try to inflict the LEAST amount of harm and suffering that we can. That's all.

Yeah, they only care not to harm the ones above ground, not the ones under ground that cultivating harms.

_VoV

I'd just like to point out that machines used in agriculture kills thousands of animals a year. I know a lot of people are vegan because they don't want to harm animals, but the truth is that unless you grow all of your food yourself and harvest it in a way that doesn't kill anything (hand picking it, basically), you're harming animals.

Most vegans know it's impossible to NEVER harm any animals, ever. We just try to inflict the LEAST amount of harm and suffering that we can. That's all.

Excellent point.

capnwo85

ZombieSlayer

People who breed rabbits for consumption will also cuddle the babies...they're cute, and so tasty.

Agreed. My New Zealand White won 2nd place at the county fair... and was really yummy.

doorki

I don't think anyone will disagree that, as a culture, our dietary balance is out of whack. We eat far too much meat products and processed products. But, I still strongly believe that our diet is a balance of animal proteins and plant fibers. We are omnivores, we have sharp, pointy teeth to pierce and tear flesh. We also have flat teeth for desiccating plant fibers.

So the question is - Since, as a species, we have become scientifically developed enough to engineer replacements for the benefits of animal proteins, should we rely on that rather than animal protein OR should we follow the more efficient route and continue to eat meat but in a more balanced manner?

carld256

Opps, didn't read carefully enough, post deleted.

MeMyCatsandI

[/quote]
This is a quote, but for some reason my quote box isn't popping up...
"There was an argument about 'choice' and how the animals we harvest for food don't have a choice etc. etc.. It's just one big ethical dilemma. Whereby the vast majority of people don't really feel that this is an argument for them. Which makes some vegans angry."
[/quote]

And here's my response...
I think an argument about choice holds little water. No animal chooses to be eaten (except perhaps one that gives it's life to helps it's offspring survive). Cows don't choose to be eaten by me anymore than a jackrabbit chooses to be eaten by a mountain lion, or a surfer chooses to be eaten by a shark, or a truffle chooses to be eaten by a truffle-eating pig. None of them have chosen to become food. It's the "eater" that chooses their food that makes the choice.

You're right though, it's more of an ethical dilemma. What I find interesting is that so many vegans try to say that because they don't eat meat, they are more ethical than those who do. It's the same as if I were to go to a foreign country and claim to be more ethical because I don't eat Guinea Pigs. Some people eat Guinea Pigs, I don't. Some people eat cats, I don't. Some poeple eat dogs, I don't. Some people eat cows, pigs, chickens, fish, etc. (that's me!) and some don't. None of those "eaters" is any more ethical than another. So when people try to claim that others are lacking in moral or ethical value because they eat-fill in the blank-, they do nothing but close off the ears of those they mean to persuade.

tsh0ck

To a degree, I get those opposed because of how animals are raised, etc. Anti-hunting, though, makes no sense. Did several research papers in school years ago, and am also a hunter. So will admit a bias. But take away hunters, and you will have a really big problem with overpopulation. Particularly in deer, but even antelope and elk.

That's why fwp figures out population numbers in every region before deciding how many animals can be taken. It is all based on sustainability. Too many animals will lead to not only disease and starvation, but also many more deaths of people on the roadways.

Add to that the fact that hunters, in general, put more money and time into environmental efforts than any other group, and it seems to me that this is a pretty important thing in society.

I thought the same thing when I was reading about so many farm animals dying off being unable to survive on their own. The wild animals that are currently hunted would go through the roof!
Hunters (atleast the ones I associate with, there are of course terrible ones) will use all of the animal. Organs go to the dogs, hide they tan themselves or give to someone who can, bones make broth and can then also go to dogs. It's usually a quick death after the animal had a fairly good life, compared to a factory style farm situation.

Right. Though I don't save many organs - heart is very good and some like liver - honestly, if you leave them lie they will be gone by morning. You've just made an easy meal for multiple critters.

_VoV

I'd just like to point out that machines used in agriculture kills thousands of animals a year. I know a lot of people are vegan because they don't want to harm animals, but the truth is that unless you grow all of your food yourself and harvest it in a way that doesn't kill anything (hand picking it, basically), you're harming animals.

Most vegans know it's impossible to NEVER harm any animals, ever. We just try to inflict the LEAST amount of harm and suffering that we can. That's all.

Excellent point.

No, it's not an excellent point at all. What you're basically saying if someone is trying to do something they feel is good, but can't do it absolutely 100% completely perfectly according to YOUR standards, they shouldn't do it at all. What kind of argument is that?

I was agreeing with this: "Most vegans know it's impossible to NEVER harm any animals, ever. We just try to inflict the LEAST amount of harm and suffering that we can. That's all."

There is no perfection in this world.

bcattoes

Add to that the fact that hunters, in general, put more money and time into environmental efforts than any other group, and it seems to me that this is a pretty important thing in society.

Really? Where did you get that fact, if it is a fact? I live a rural area where just about all the men and a good percentage of the women hunt. Very few of them are environmentally friendly.

But many do donate their kills to the local hunter's food bank, which processes kills and donates the meat to local homeless shelters.

toysbigkid

bumping............vegetarian for no other reason than I like it better this way, no right, no wrong, just because!!!!!

carld256

I'd just like to point out that machines used in agriculture kills thousands of animals a year. I know a lot of people are vegan because they don't want to harm animals, but the truth is that unless you grow all of your food yourself and harvest it in a way that doesn't kill anything (hand picking it, basically), you're harming animals.

Most vegans know it's impossible to NEVER harm any animals, ever. We just try to inflict the LEAST amount of harm and suffering that we can. That's all.

Excellent point.

No, it's not an excellent point at all. What you're basically saying if someone is trying to do something they feel is good, but can't do it absolutely 100% completely perfectly according to YOUR standards, they shouldn't do it at all. What kind of argument is that?

I was agreeing with this: "Most vegans know it's impossible to NEVER harm any animals, ever. We just try to inflict the LEAST amount of harm and suffering that we can. That's all."

There is no perfection in this world.

Sorry, got my posts mixed up. I do apologize. The argument being made was one that I find really annoying, and I jumped the gun without reading closely, sorry again.

VegesaurusRex

Add to that the fact that hunters, in general, put more money and time into environmental efforts than any other group, and it seems to me that this is a pretty important thing in society.

Really? Where did you get that fact, if it is a fact? I live a rural area where just about all the men and a good percentage of the women hunt. Very few of them are environmentally friendly.

But many do donate their kills to the local hunter's food bank, which processes kills and donates the meat to local homeless shelters.

Ridiculous. Vegans just by virtue of who they are do far more than any hunter for the environment. Hunting is barbaric. Albert DeSalvio Jeffery Dommers, all the great serial killers started as hunters and animal torturers. Hunting is the antithesis of civilization.

Aleciajones

One of my dogs is part wolf and the special high protein foods are expensive for the amount she eats. You are very very right though, nature is efficient...circle of life and all that, the left over bits aren't truly wasted one way or another.

andreacord

I have no argument on this, I will say that I'm not a huge fan of meat because of personal tastes and largely stick to seafood based proteins and dairy proteins .. But I'd probably just go vegetarian if I wasn't soy intolerant because I just don't like meat.

Aleciajones

Add to that the fact that hunters, in general, put more money and time into environmental efforts than any other group, and it seems to me that this is a pretty important thing in society.

Really? Where did you get that fact, if it is a fact? I live a rural area where just about all the men and a good percentage of the women hunt. Very few of them are environmentally friendly.

But many do donate their kills to the local hunter's food bank, which processes kills and donates the meat to local homeless shelters.

Ridiculous. Vegans just by virtue of who they are do far more than any hunter for the environment. Hunting is barbaric. Albert DeSalvio Jeffery Dommers, all the great serial killers started as hunters and animal torturers. Hunting is the antithesis of civilization.

Hunting is the same as animal torture how? I've never met a hunter who didn't put the animal down as quickly as possible.

Faintgreeneyes

Not eating meat can either be a personal choice or a medical choice, just like eating meat can be either a personal or medically advised choice.

The issue really- is that no one wants to concede the point. Everyone wants to be "right" instead of just accepting that fact that, some people like to eat meat, and some people do not.

Here is a thought- learn to respect each others decisions, and leave the debate at that. Quite honestly having a debate over meat eating vs Vegan/Vegetarian is like having an argument about religion and/or politics.... you just get a lot of people angrily shouting at each other, citing references and sources that suit their needs, with no one really listening to anyone but themselves, and no way that you are going to sway someone to believe what you believe, see, feel, etc.

Respect each other, agree to disagree, and move the *kitten* on. Seriously, more important things in the world than what we are putting in our respective mouths on a daily basis.

marieautumn

i like meat because, hello Tofu < Bacon & Steak. plus its got a lot of protein. I think as long as you are eating grassfed or lean cuts of meat, its healthy. at least in my opinion.