Meat eating vs. Vegan debate

Bronx_Montgomery

impyimpyaj

Another thing I thought about was, what would happen if in the future everyone DID stop eating meat and animal products? Baring in mind something like 95-99% of the population eat animal produce, with an ever-expanding human population, where on earth would we find the room to cultivate and grow so much food?!

Actually, it takes less resources and space to farm veggies than animals.

True ... but very soon we would be overrun by an animal population explosion. Of course, many of those animals would wind up.dying from disease and starvation ... so I guess it would balance out for a few years at a time.

Farm animals that are raised for meat are unable to survive on their own. If the entire world suddenly turned vegan, cattle (meat and dairy,) chickens, pigs, would all basically become extinct.

I was thinking more of already wild animals. But what you said also is wrong - which usually doesn't happen, actually. There are plenty of all those animals wild. Actually, wild and feral pigs are a massive problem in the south.

True. But what about animals that have been kept in the circle of being used in the industry for so long that there is the possibility they can't take care of themselves anymore? Like certain housepets for example.

In my mind, this worry about the world going vegan and suddenly being overrun by excess animals who are freed to live in the wild is nothing to worry about. Even something as simple as 'Meatless Mondays' taking off for a large part of the population is apt to drop the demand for meat. The cost of meat might go down temporarily, and then production would slack off some. I don't think the world would ever go veg*n like turning on a light switch, especially reading the many comments here from people who are meat-lovers with no intention to change.

I agree. Even if all cultures were to make the shift to vegetarianism/veganism, it wouldn't be like one day we all chow down on steak and the next day we're munching lettuce. It would be a gradual change, and as the demand for meat diminishes, the supply would dwindle as well.

BrokenButterfly

This thread is rather long, so I was really willing to read it all and try to catch up as it keeps going.

Is the argument that humanity is not meant to eat meat or that we have evolved to the point in society that we should no longer eat meat?

It's more in the direction of 'is meat beneficial to us as humans or does it cause more harm than it does good to our health and wellbeing?'

khagador

This thread is rather long, so I was really willing to read it all and try to catch up as it keeps going.

Is the argument that humanity is not meant to eat meat or that we have evolved to the point in society that we should no longer eat meat?

Great question! I think the point is that we as a society has evolved to the point that we have a choice in the matter. We are no longer reliant on meat for our sources of protein and we have made major advances in technology that allow us to choose our diets. So the question is really why we choose what we do.

khagador

This thread is rather long, so I was really willing to read it all and try to catch up as it keeps going.

Is the argument that humanity is not meant to eat meat or that we have evolved to the point in society that we should no longer eat meat?

It's more in the direction of 'is meat beneficial to us as humans or does it cause more harm than it does good to our health and wellbeing?'

This is a more eloquent way of putting it. Yes, this.

HelloSweetie4

I feel the same way about this as I do about religion. Do what you like, I will do my best to respect your views unless you're doing something that I am morally opposed to. I will try to remember your stance and bear that in mind, but cut me some slack if I forget.

If you try to force your way of life on me or ride me too much for not remembering some detail about how you want to live, well then I'll be the pr*ck that actively tries to piss you off and mocks you in public.

Also please pass the bacon.

^this^
I will not argue with vegetarians or vegans on who is right or wrong. I honestly don't care if others chose not to eat meat or whatever. What angers me is when they act smug or better than people who eat meat. I am certainly not saying all vegans are like this. I have plenty of vegan and vegetarian friends. We respect eachothers diets and don't question it.
But this topic is a lot like a religious belief issues. Most people can get along without a problem, but there's always those people that believe that their way is the right way and everyone should follow them. I do not like people that preach to me about anything and I will certainly let you know if you are irritating me with trying to get me to change my ways. The fact that I eat meat, does not directly effect your life so you shouldn't act like I am hurting you in some way because of what I eat.

gastankerdriver

If you place a baby rabbit in front of a "meat eater," it will invariably pounce on it, grip it with sharp claw and proceed to rip it to shreds with canines and a mouth filled with sharp (not flat) teeth, then will proceed to eat the entire thing, hair, bones, etc. raw (no cooking, no baking, no putting it in the microwave), then burp and go to sleep. Strangely, humans are the only meat eaters who can't engage in this kind of behavior. Eating raw meat will make us sick. Who wants to rip a baby rabbit to shreds and devour it. We want to cuddle it. We don't have sharp teeth and claws like other meat eaters. The truth is that we are closer to the primates who are 95% herbivore, but eat small amounts of insects and bugs. Primates have flat teeth for grinding. They have long complicated digestive systems for digesting complex carbohydrates. I am not a vegan, but I go make an effort to minimize the amount of animal proteins I ingest. We are not designed to eat enormous amounts of animal protein. It clogs our system and becomes abrasive, leading to lesions that turn into polyps that ultimately become cancerous. 20% of men over the age of 50 contract colon cancer. Is that natural?

carld256

[images snipped]

Was that really necessary? You know it's possible to have an intelligent discussion without resorting to veg-bashing. And people wonder why people who don't eat meat get defensive.

Shock_Wave

Delete

MeMyCatsandI

Next time I see a hawk pluck a varmit out of a field I'll be sure to flag him down and tell him not to do that because it's "murder". I know hawks have good hearing, but so do house cats. My house cats don't listen when I give them lectures about leaving their snacks on the front porch. So, until those guys stop murdering other animals, I'm going to continue to eat meat. (Within my calorie/nutritional goal)

I'm actually trying to get my cats to eat MORE meat by switching them to a raw diet. So far, no luck. Maybe if I were to lead by example. Now where is that smiley who's eating a big, fat steak? Huh, I guess this will have to do! :bigsmile:

bcattoes

There are no benefits of meat. The reason vegans cannot "accept" your lifestyle is because it promotes murder, rape, and torture of living beings for the sole purpose of selfish human desire for taste. That is something I cannot and will not ever condone. Meat eating is cultural and that is why people get so defensive and feel under attack when all the evidence points to the lack of ethics in the choice to eat animal products. Scientific studies prove that humans do not need meat to survive and live a healthy lifestyle. Millions of vegans prove this by simply living their lives. Carnists view animals as objects and property, not creatures with thoughts or feelings or lives of their own. Carnists lack empathy and compassion, which in itself is inhuman.

Aaaaaaaand there we go. This conversation was going just fine without hyperbole, stereotypes, and assumptions.

I don't know what you're talking about. If you condone the murder of living creatures so you can say "yum, what a great steak" that's selfish and lacking empathy. No hyperbole here. Just because you're personally uncomfortable does not mean I'm wrong.

But ripping living plants out of the ground, or ripping and shredding them up with machinery is perfectly ok? Where do you draw the line on what is living or not, just your own personal opinion? How about fungi, they aren't plants, they're half animal, half plant. Yeast? Same thing. I notice you said living creatures. Plants are living creatures, and if you condone murdering and eating the unborn children of a poor apple tree, well then you're just a monster.

See, hyperbole, stereotypes, and assumptions.

Actually, I don't think plants qualify as "creatures", though they are living. Creatures are animals.

_VoV

Interesting thread, but too long to go through all of it. I know these two issues (see below) were touched upon in this thread, but I am always curious about the opinions of people who opt to become vegans/vegetarians for ethical reasons. Please do not assume that I am being critical of your choice (I am not). I fully support and respect every individual's right to their own choices. I am more curious than anything.

1. Would you be willing to eat animals that are not raised for slaughter, such as wild caught seafood and/or wild caught game? Why or why not?

2. Do you use other animal products such as leather goods, wool, etc? Why or why not?

1. No. Plants nourish me just fine, so why add the ethical complexity into my life for me to think about?

2. No. I don't buy leather, wool, silk. I buy detergents, cleaners, cosmetics without animal ingredients and that haven't been tested on animals. The challenge is finding sustainable, biodegradable vegan shoes, etc, but things are getting better in this regard.

lovetobethin86

the main argument is this: ONLY animal based foods contain vitamin B12. B12 deficiency is one of the leading causes of dementia in elderly adults and is one of the key "brain foods" we consume. you can supplement it, sure, but i'm just sayin'.

LOL Interesting because I'm vegan and I have VEGAN multivitamins that contain vitamin b12

becoming_a_new_me

No plant based foods contain B12 or cholesterol (which is needed to make testosterone and estrogen). Other than that, it just comes down to personal choice of whether or not you want to be vegan or a meat eater.

A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer/Group Fitness Instructor
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

I agree about it being personal choice, but there is vegan nutritional yeast, which is grown on molasses, that has B12. Or there are B12 supplements.

I think Marmite and Vegamite have high levels of B12. Never tried it myself but apparently it's used as a spread.

Where would one get cholesterol supplements that aren't animal based though?

Hehe, cholesterol supplements. And that's true. Don't we get all of our cholesterol from animals? Or can that be found in plants too?

There is no cholesterol in plants. Your body makes "good" cholesterol. Animal products are considered to have "bad" cholesterol. I don't know an instance where you would actually take a cholesterol supplement. It would probably be something to aid in the function of producing cholesterol and not a direct source.

I really don't know much about cholesterol at all. All I know is that we do need it.

Coconut oil

BrokenButterfly

Another thing I thought about was, what would happen if in the future everyone DID stop eating meat and animal products? Baring in mind something like 95-99% of the population eat animal produce, with an ever-expanding human population, where on earth would we find the room to cultivate and grow so much food?!

Actually, it takes less resources and space to farm veggies than animals.

True ... but very soon we would be overrun by an animal population explosion. Of course, many of those animals would wind up.dying from disease and starvation ... so I guess it would balance out for a few years at a time.

Farm animals that are raised for meat are unable to survive on their own. If the entire world suddenly turned vegan, cattle (meat and dairy,) chickens, pigs, would all basically become extinct.

I was thinking more of already wild animals. But what you said also is wrong - which usually doesn't happen, actually. There are plenty of all those animals wild. Actually, wild and feral pigs are a massive problem in the south.

True. But what about animals that have been kept in the circle of being used in the industry for so long that there is the possibility they can't take care of themselves anymore? Like certain housepets for example.

In my mind, this worry about the world going vegan and suddenly being overrun by excess animals who are freed to live in the wild is nothing to worry about. Even something as simple as 'Meatless Mondays' taking off for a large part of the population is apt to drop the demand for meat. The cost of meat might go down temporarily, and then production would slack off some. I don't think the world would ever go veg*n like turning on a light switch, especially reading the many comments here from people who are meat-lovers with no intention to change.

I personally don't think that the whole world would go vegan / vegetarian. I kind of view the 'hardcore' vegan argument as almost like a protest (the ones who really want everyone to change). But the aggressive way (in what i've seen) they have gone and do go about it doesn't yield results from the majority of meat-eaters because noone likes to feel like their choices are being attacked or they're being told what to do. It's kind of like feminism. Women are still not seen as 100% equal because of the few extremist feminists who have given feminism a bad name. Aggression can work in small doses but not when trying to convince a majority. (But let's not turn this topic onto feminism)

Shock_Wave

I'd like to hear what other meat eaters / vegans have to say

:laugh: ..................................................................................:laugh:

:laugh: ...................................................................................:laugh:

That is all.

impyimpyaj

Actually, I don't think plants qualify as "creatures", though they are living. Creatures are animals.

This. And just a point of fact for Christians, plants are not considered to be "living" in the creation story. Only humans and other animals have that distinction. I know not everyone here is Christian, but it's an interesting factoid. Plant "life" =/= animal life.

BrokenButterfly

I feel the same way about this as I do about religion. Do what you like, I will do my best to respect your views unless you're doing something that I am morally opposed to. I will try to remember your stance and bear that in mind, but cut me some slack if I forget.

If you try to force your way of life on me or ride me too much for not remembering some detail about how you want to live, well then I'll be the pr*ck that actively tries to piss you off and mocks you in public.

Also please pass the bacon.

^this^
I will not argue with vegetarians or vegans on who is right or wrong. I honestly don't care if others chose not to eat meat or whatever. What angers me is when they act smug or better than people who eat meat. I am certainly not saying all vegans are like this. I have plenty of vegan and vegetarian friends. We respect eachothers diets and don't question it.
But this topic is a lot like a religious belief issues. Most people can get along without a problem, but there's always those people that believe that their way is the right way and everyone should follow them. I do not like people that preach to me about anything and I will certainly let you know if you are irritating me with trying to get me to change my ways. The fact that I eat meat, does not directly effect your life so you shouldn't act like I am hurting you in some way because of what I eat.

This is a massive part of the problem. Pushy and judgemental people.

lovetobethin86

Honestly, I'm vegan and yes I tell people some benefits of being vegan and how its helped me in many ways BUT I dont push my view on people or tell them they are wrong for eating meat (my husband and daughter eat meat that I have to cook or them...dont like cooking it but I'm a wife and my hubby likes meat.) Simply put, everyone should be educated about eating either way, some people have no clue what being vegan means (they think we eat just salads) but everyone should choose for themselves how they want to eat, no arguement

BrokenButterfly

If you place a baby rabbit in front of a "meat eater," it will invariably pounce on it, grip it with sharp claw and proceed to rip it to shreds with canines and a mouth filled with sharp (not flat) teeth, then will proceed to eat the entire thing, hair, bones, etc. raw (no cooking, no baking, no putting it in the microwave), then burp and go to sleep. Strangely, humans are the only meat eaters who can't engage in this kind of behavior. Eating raw meat will make us sick. Who wants to rip a baby rabbit to shreds and devour it. We want to cuddle it. We don't have sharp teeth and claws like other meat eaters. The truth is that we are closer to the primates who are 95% herbivore, but eat small amounts of insects and bugs. Primates have flat teeth for grinding. They have long complicated digestive systems for digesting complex carbohydrates. I am not a vegan, but I go make an effort to minimize the amount of animal proteins I ingest. We are not designed to eat enormous amounts of animal protein. It clogs our system and becomes abrasive, leading to lesions that turn into polyps that ultimately become cancerous. 20% of men over the age of 50 contract colon cancer. Is that natural?

That sounds about right. We certainly do consume much more meat than we need to as a species.