Meat eating vs. Vegan debate
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But ripping living plants out of the ground, or ripping and shredding them up with machinery is perfectly ok? Where do you draw the line on what is living or not, just your own personal opinion? How about fungi, they aren't plants, they're half animal, half plant. Yeast? Same thing. I notice you said living creatures. Plants are living creatures, and if you condone murdering and eating the unborn children of a poor apple tree, well then you're just a monster.There are no benefits of meat. The reason vegans cannot "accept" your lifestyle is because it promotes murder, rape, and torture of living beings for the sole purpose of selfish human desire for taste. That is something I cannot and will not ever condone. Meat eating is cultural and that is why people get so defensive and feel under attack when all the evidence points to the lack of ethics in the choice to eat animal products. Scientific studies prove that humans do not need meat to survive and live a healthy lifestyle. Millions of vegans prove this by simply living their lives. Carnists view animals as objects and property, not creatures with thoughts or feelings or lives of their own. Carnists lack empathy and compassion, which in itself is inhuman.
Aaaaaaaand there we go. This conversation was going just fine without hyperbole, stereotypes, and assumptions.
I don't know what you're talking about. If you condone the murder of living creatures so you can say "yum, what a great steak" that's selfish and lacking empathy. No hyperbole here. Just because you're personally uncomfortable does not mean I'm wrong.
See, hyperbole, stereotypes, and assumptions.
If you are so concerned about the pain plants experience then I'm sure eating meat troubles you too. It takes it least 2 pounds of grain to produce one pound of meat. So think of the cow as your corn-processing machine. You are still eating the corn, just one step further up on the 'food chain'.0 -
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Was that really necessary? You know it's possible to have an intelligent discussion without resorting to veg-bashing. And people wonder why people who don't eat meat get defensive.
Exactly why I ignored it. Didn't want to begin an argument.0 -
I'm actually trying to get my cats to eat MORE meat by switching them to a raw diet. So far, no luck. Maybe if I were to lead by example. Now where is that smiley who's eating a big, fat steak? Huh, I guess this will have to do! :bigsmile:Next time I see a hawk pluck a varmit out of a field I'll be sure to flag him down and tell him not to do that because it's "murder". I know hawks have good hearing, but so do house cats. My house cats don't listen when I give them lectures about leaving their snacks on the front porch. So, until those guys stop murdering other animals, I'm going to continue to eat meat. (Within my calorie/nutritional goal)
I heard a little about vegans feeding their pets vegan foods. They were saying how a vegan diet is more beneficial to housepets too...0 -
No plant based foods contain B12 or cholesterol (which is needed to make testosterone and estrogen). Other than that, it just comes down to personal choice of whether or not you want to be vegan or a meat eater.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer/Group Fitness Instructor
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Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I agree about it being personal choice, but there is vegan nutritional yeast, which is grown on molasses, that has B12. Or there are B12 supplements.
I think Marmite and Vegamite have high levels of B12. Never tried it myself but apparently it's used as a spread.
Where would one get cholesterol supplements that aren't animal based though?
Hehe, cholesterol supplements. And that's true. Don't we get all of our cholesterol from animals? Or can that be found in plants too?
There is no cholesterol in plants. Your body makes "good" cholesterol. Animal products are considered to have "bad" cholesterol. I don't know an instance where you would actually take a cholesterol supplement. It would probably be something to aid in the function of producing cholesterol and not a direct source.
I really don't know much about cholesterol at all. All I know is that we do need it.
Coconut oil
OH yes and nutritional yeast has vitamin B12, people are just not educated enough, they think they know what they're taking about like meat is the only thing that has vitamin B12 but obviously thats not true....people read that meat is the only thing that has it and believe it0 -
No plant based foods contain B12 or cholesterol (which is needed to make testosterone and estrogen). Other than that, it just comes down to personal choice of whether or not you want to be vegan or a meat eater.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer/Group Fitness Instructor
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I agree about it being personal choice, but there is vegan nutritional yeast, which is grown on molasses, that has B12. Or there are B12 supplements.
I think Marmite and Vegamite have high levels of B12. Never tried it myself but apparently it's used as a spread.
Where would one get cholesterol supplements that aren't animal based though?
Hehe, cholesterol supplements. And that's true. Don't we get all of our cholesterol from animals? Or can that be found in plants too?
There is no cholesterol in plants. Your body makes "good" cholesterol. Animal products are considered to have "bad" cholesterol. I don't know an instance where you would actually take a cholesterol supplement. It would probably be something to aid in the function of producing cholesterol and not a direct source.
I really don't know much about cholesterol at all. All I know is that we do need it.
Coconut oil
Thank you!0 -
But ripping living plants out of the ground, or ripping and shredding them up with machinery is perfectly ok? Where do you draw the line on what is living or not, just your own personal opinion? How about fungi, they aren't plants, they're half animal, half plant. Yeast? Same thing. I notice you said living creatures. Plants are living creatures, and if you condone murdering and eating the unborn children of a poor apple tree, well then you're just a monster.There are no benefits of meat. The reason vegans cannot "accept" your lifestyle is because it promotes murder, rape, and torture of living beings for the sole purpose of selfish human desire for taste. That is something I cannot and will not ever condone. Meat eating is cultural and that is why people get so defensive and feel under attack when all the evidence points to the lack of ethics in the choice to eat animal products. Scientific studies prove that humans do not need meat to survive and live a healthy lifestyle. Millions of vegans prove this by simply living their lives. Carnists view animals as objects and property, not creatures with thoughts or feelings or lives of their own. Carnists lack empathy and compassion, which in itself is inhuman.
Aaaaaaaand there we go. This conversation was going just fine without hyperbole, stereotypes, and assumptions.
I don't know what you're talking about. If you condone the murder of living creatures so you can say "yum, what a great steak" that's selfish and lacking empathy. No hyperbole here. Just because you're personally uncomfortable does not mean I'm wrong.
See, hyperbole, stereotypes, and assumptions.
The girls and guys I spoke to before would say how 'stupid' meat-eaters are for presenting this as an argument in the meat-eaters defence. An example:
"Oh and the argument that plants are living too and that what we do is wrong is not true. They do not have faces that have a choice to run away but cannot because we torture them. They produce fruit and vegetables and themselves without blood and pain."
I'm just trying to stop all these violent animals from killing all the plants that make the oxygen that I need to breath! And I'm the bad guy? these animals are wandering around all willy nilly, destroying our air supply and we didn't ask for there help we can do it yourselves. ohhh the arrogance some of these murderous animals portray is so offensive.
oh and I love my Vegan friends, they're awesome and I yeah you can live a healthy life without meat I guess, but since my body was made to eat it (Type O Caveman build) I will continue to do so.
and not just because it tastes so very good, but because that they way I choose to get my protein.
A great man said "It's ok to eat fish because they don't have any feelings"0 -
Personally, I have a carbohydrate-intolerant metabolism. Which means I cannot eat grains, sugar, most fruits, or even large amounts of vegetables. I pretty much only eat meats (and in that I include chicken, fish etc), eggs, cheese, and lower-carb / higher-protein vegetables (things like spinach and mushrooms).
Being vegetarian or vegan would literally kill me.
How's that for an argument?
I know people who are perfectly healthy vegans. I know people who are perfectly healthy Paleos. It just depends on your own personal metabolism. Which is why it's stupid for anyone to be judging other people or telling them they're wrong based on ideology.0 -
Honestly, I'm vegan and yes I tell people some benefits of being vegan and how its helped me in many ways BUT I dont push my view on people or tell them they are wrong for eating meat (my husband and daughter eat meat that I have to cook or them...dont like cooking it but I'm a wife and my hubby likes meat.) Simply put, everyone should be educated about eating either way, some people have no clue what being vegan means (they think we eat just salads) but everyone should choose for themselves how they want to eat, no arguement
I was clueless to what it meant to be vegan recently. I mean I knew the basics but I didn't really have a full understanding. Education certainly is key.0 -
That could not be more incorrect. Cats are OBLIGATE carnivores. They must eat meat to survive. And anyone who tries to argue the opposite is flat out wrong.
I'm actually trying to get my cats to eat MORE meat by switching them to a raw diet. So far, no luck. Maybe if I were to lead by example. Now where is that smiley who's eating a big, fat steak? Huh, I guess this will have to do! :bigsmile:Next time I see a hawk pluck a varmit out of a field I'll be sure to flag him down and tell him not to do that because it's "murder". I know hawks have good hearing, but so do house cats. My house cats don't listen when I give them lectures about leaving their snacks on the front porch. So, until those guys stop murdering other animals, I'm going to continue to eat meat. (Within my calorie/nutritional goal)
I heard a little about vegans feeding their pets vegan foods. They were saying how a vegan diet is more beneficial to housepets too...
Dogs are omnivores and could PERHAPS survive on a vegan diet. But I'm more of a cat expert so I won't try to speak to dogs.0 -
Plants do feel pain, and doesn't the fact that they physically can't escape us make it worse?
But ripping living plants out of the ground, or ripping and shredding them up with machinery is perfectly ok? Where do you draw the line on what is living or not, just your own personal opinion? How about fungi, they aren't plants, they're half animal, half plant. Yeast? Same thing. I notice you said living creatures. Plants are living creatures, and if you condone murdering and eating the unborn children of a poor apple tree, well then you're just a monster.There are no benefits of meat. The reason vegans cannot "accept" your lifestyle is because it promotes murder, rape, and torture of living beings for the sole purpose of selfish human desire for taste. That is something I cannot and will not ever condone. Meat eating is cultural and that is why people get so defensive and feel under attack when all the evidence points to the lack of ethics in the choice to eat animal products. Scientific studies prove that humans do not need meat to survive and live a healthy lifestyle. Millions of vegans prove this by simply living their lives. Carnists view animals as objects and property, not creatures with thoughts or feelings or lives of their own. Carnists lack empathy and compassion, which in itself is inhuman.
Aaaaaaaand there we go. This conversation was going just fine without hyperbole, stereotypes, and assumptions.
I don't know what you're talking about. If you condone the murder of living creatures so you can say "yum, what a great steak" that's selfish and lacking empathy. No hyperbole here. Just because you're personally uncomfortable does not mean I'm wrong.
See, hyperbole, stereotypes, and assumptions.
The girls and guys I spoke to before would say how 'stupid' meat-eaters are for presenting this as an argument in the meat-eaters defence. An example:
"Oh and the argument that plants are living too and that what we do is wrong is not true. They do not have faces that have a choice to run away but cannot because we torture them. They produce fruit and vegetables and themselves without blood and pain."
For the record, I'm mostly playing Devil's Advocate here, I am not anti-Vegan. I'm of the (ridiculous to some vegans) opinion that eating a balanced diet is the healthiest way to go. I make vegan meals all the time. I'm of the firm opinion that it's positively silly to have to pick one way or the other.0 -
Are factory farm cows and pigs that are raised eating corn good for you? No. Is wild game, grass fed meat, wild salmon, organic chickens good for you? Yes. The problem is they're both right. Plant food should make up the bulk of your diet, anyone who argues this is just silly. However, the absence of meat does not give you good health automatically. A vegan could eat popcorn, white flour, eggless dough, candy, potato chips, etc and still have a heart attack. The benefits vegans receive from their diet is normally from the insane amount of vegetables theyre eating, not the absence of meat. A primal diet and an organic, whole foods based vegan diet would probably yield similar results on blood tests and in weight loss. They are just diets based on whole and clean foods. They should stop arguing and see what they have in common, theyre not so different. The one thing that can be agreed on is that vegetables are fantastic for you.0
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Farm animals that are raised for meat are unable to survive on their own. If the entire world suddenly turned vegan, cattle (meat and dairy,) chickens, pigs, would all basically become extinct.
Actually, it takes less resources and space to farm veggies than animals.Another thing I thought about was, what would happen if in the future everyone DID stop eating meat and animal products? Baring in mind something like 95-99% of the population eat animal produce, with an ever-expanding human population, where on earth would we find the room to cultivate and grow so much food?!
True ... but very soon we would be overrun by an animal population explosion. Of course, many of those animals would wind up.dying from disease and starvation ... so I guess it would balance out for a few years at a time.
I was thinking more of already wild animals. But what you said also is wrong - which usually doesn't happen, actually. There are plenty of all those animals wild. Actually, wild and feral pigs are a massive problem in the south.
True. But what about animals that have been kept in the circle of being used in the industry for so long that there is the possibility they can't take care of themselves anymore? Like certain housepets for example.
There will certainly be some death there. But darwin takes over. The stronger of the batch will adapt and survive. Like I said, you wouldn't think a little pig from a farm would make it in the wild. But now they are destroying millions of dollars of property and land every year. Same thing happened in the everglades. Pets no longer wanted dumped ... and now a snake problem.0 -
LOL I'm a semi vegan... or actually I think it's technically called a flexitarian, because I try my hardest to only eat vegan,but occasionally I'll have some cheese or an egg.
I have no problems with meat, or people who eat meat. I have no problems with people who don't eat meat, or people who don't eat reg meat but will eat eggs, milk, fish... the reason I don't have problems with them is that that is THEIR CHOICE!!! very simple...... my choice vs not my choice...
what I do have a problem with is the morally superior attitude many vegan, vegetarians and even pescatarians have.
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=sponsor
their motto is to sponsor a vegetarian
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That could not be more incorrect. Cats are OBLIGATE carnivores. They must eat meat to survive. And anyone who tries to argue the opposite is flat out wrong.
I'm actually trying to get my cats to eat MORE meat by switching them to a raw diet. So far, no luck. Maybe if I were to lead by example. Now where is that smiley who's eating a big, fat steak? Huh, I guess this will have to do! :bigsmile:Next time I see a hawk pluck a varmit out of a field I'll be sure to flag him down and tell him not to do that because it's "murder". I know hawks have good hearing, but so do house cats. My house cats don't listen when I give them lectures about leaving their snacks on the front porch. So, until those guys stop murdering other animals, I'm going to continue to eat meat. (Within my calorie/nutritional goal)
I heard a little about vegans feeding their pets vegan foods. They were saying how a vegan diet is more beneficial to housepets too...
Dogs are omnivores and could PERHAPS survive on a vegan diet. But I'm more of a cat expert so I won't try to speak to dogs.
I agree that cats are obligate carnivores, though most dogs do fine eating veg*n. My almost 14-year old husky has eaten veg*n all her life, and has done well up until recently when she injured her paw. The inactivity isn't good for her.0 -
I'm actually trying to get my cats to eat MORE meat by switching them to a raw diet. So far, no luck. Maybe if I were to lead by example. Now where is that smiley who's eating a big, fat steak? Huh, I guess this will have to do! :bigsmile:Next time I see a hawk pluck a varmit out of a field I'll be sure to flag him down and tell him not to do that because it's "murder". I know hawks have good hearing, but so do house cats. My house cats don't listen when I give them lectures about leaving their snacks on the front porch. So, until those guys stop murdering other animals, I'm going to continue to eat meat. (Within my calorie/nutritional goal)
I heard a little about vegans feeding their pets vegan foods. They were saying how a vegan diet is more beneficial to housepets too...
Some do, but even my brother and his wife who are vegan won't do that. They're bodies aren't meant for that. Look at their digestive tract.0 -
Personally, I have a carbohydrate-intolerant metabolism. Which means I cannot eat grains, sugar, most fruits, or even large amounts of vegetables. I pretty much only eat meats (and in that I include chicken, fish etc), eggs, cheese, and lower-carb / higher-protein vegetables (things like spinach and mushrooms).
Being vegetarian or vegan would literally kill me.
How's that for an argument?
I know people who are perfectly healthy vegans. I know people who are perfectly healthy Paleos. It just depends on your own personal metabolism. Which is why it's stupid for anyone to be judging other people or telling them they're wrong based on ideology.
I agree. I think I have something similar in my IBS symptoms. When i'm stressed, I react badly to a lot of carby, dairy and wheaty foods. Meat is one of the few things that i'm perfectly ok eating.0 -
Where are the primal or paleo people? Oh hai! Meat is a large portion of my diet and if there was a year round hunting season 95% would be venison that my husband or I took down (and thanked for its life) but sadly we also have to resort to the mass produced which is growing less common as we are becoming friends with more local farmers who raise grass fed and free range. I do view myself as more important than an animal, does not mean i lack empathy just means I am not sorry for how I feel about it. Jmho that the issue is more how the animals are treated, the gluttony and waste regarding the animals.0
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I heard a little about vegans feeding their pets vegan foods. They were saying how a vegan diet is more beneficial to housepets too...
It's cruel if you put a cat on a vegan diet.0 -
Um, not really. Animal protein gets used, converted to glucose, then used or stored until needed. Exactly the same as plant protein.If you place a baby rabbit in front of a "meat eater," it will invariably pounce on it, grip it with sharp claw and proceed to rip it to shreds with canines and a mouth filled with sharp (not flat) teeth, then will proceed to eat the entire thing, hair, bones, etc. raw (no cooking, no baking, no putting it in the microwave), then burp and go to sleep. Strangely, humans are the only meat eaters who can't engage in this kind of behavior. Eating raw meat will make us sick. Who wants to rip a baby rabbit to shreds and devour it. We want to cuddle it. We don't have sharp teeth and claws like other meat eaters. The truth is that we are closer to the primates who are 95% herbivore, but eat small amounts of insects and bugs. Primates have flat teeth for grinding. They have long complicated digestive systems for digesting complex carbohydrates. I am not a vegan, but I go make an effort to minimize the amount of animal proteins I ingest. We are not designed to eat enormous amounts of animal protein. It clogs our system and becomes abrasive, leading to lesions that turn into polyps that ultimately become cancerous. 20% of men over the age of 50 contract colon cancer. Is that natural?
Also, raw meat does not make people sick. Carpaccio? Ceviche, Sushi, all consist of raw meat or seafood. Contaminants in raw meat can make people sick, and those same contaminants can get into raw plants and make people equally sick. Cooking meat kills potential contaminants, and makes certain nutrients more bioavailable. Same thing with cooking plants.0 -
If you place a baby rabbit in front of a "meat eater," it will invariably pounce on it, grip it with sharp claw and proceed to rip it to shreds with canines and a mouth filled with sharp (not flat) teeth, then will proceed to eat the entire thing, hair, bones, etc. raw (no cooking, no baking, no putting it in the microwave), then burp and go to sleep. Strangely, humans are the only meat eaters who can't engage in this kind of behavior. Eating raw meat will make us sick. Who wants to rip a baby rabbit to shreds and devour it. We want to cuddle it. We don't have sharp teeth and claws like other meat eaters. The truth is that we are closer to the primates who are 95% herbivore, but eat small amounts of insects and bugs. Primates have flat teeth for grinding. They have long complicated digestive systems for digesting complex carbohydrates. I am not a vegan, but I go make an effort to minimize the amount of animal proteins I ingest. We are not designed to eat enormous amounts of animal protein. It clogs our system and becomes abrasive, leading to lesions that turn into polyps that ultimately become cancerous. 20% of men over the age of 50 contract colon cancer. Is that natural?
Cuddling the baby rabbit instead of eating it is pretty socially constructed. :P0
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