Meat eating vs. Vegan debate
Replies
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I feel we've rather gone off-topic a little. Although it's interesting to see that there are people who hunt their own meat.
We also hunted and butchered (farm animals as well) our own meat.
I feel this is one reason I hate to waste food so much. If you're going to kill something for food, you should use (or enable the use by others) of ALL of it.0 -
I think you can eat what every you what, but the consequences of what happens to your body by this action is down to only you.0
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The only LOGICAL conclusion to hunting is dinner.
I often wondered what people like you would think and do if the earth were actually invaded by aliens who hunted and ate humans. Would your arguments be the same? If not why would they be different. Explain why us hunting animals is good but creatures who are more powerful than us eating us is bad. I'd really like to hear this.
Why don't we spin this another way, then. The same scenario - what would YOU do if something was hostile and trying to eat you? I feel that it is the circle of life. One thing is eaten by another thing, is eaten by bigger thing... Deer don't want to be eaten by us as we don't want to be eaten by sharks. But that's how a food chain goes.0 -
I don't eat meat but my husband does, we don't argue about it. I'm not sure why anyone cares who is eating what- unless it's babies, no one should eat babies. I made a moral decision not to eat meat but I really have no expectations for others to share my views. I can't believe this is an actual debate or how anyone could create sweeping generalizations about people who eat meat or people who don't.
I do sup my B12
hahahaha i agree no baby eating lol0 -
Then you simply have had a few bad experiences. Lesson No. 1 with hunting? Guns and beer don't mix.
Most hunters I know don't drink (much) while hunting. The smell would be one reason, and the fact that they normally hunt very early in the morning would another. But most, not all, of them drink when they get back to camp. Nothing wrong with that, though.0 -
Hunting is the same as animal torture how? I've never met a hunter who didn't put the animal down as quickly as possible.
And I never met a hunter who wasn't drunk or drinking. I grew up in a family of hunters. I know exactly how they behave.
And yes, hunting is torture. Being shot is not a pleasure. Running for your life is not fun. Seeing members of your family die is not pleasurable.
Also grew up in a family of hunters, none of whom drink. What the hell does drinking have to do with anything anyway? Without hunters, humanity would not have survived long enough to bring us to this place where now we're arguing about the 'ethics' of hunting. Hunting provides food. Everything that lives must consume something to survive. I could just as easily say it is unethical to kill plants for your dietary needs as any vegan does when they tell me when killing animals is unethical.
Hunters do not kill for the pleasure of seeing the animal suffer (at least the vast majority of them don't, of course there are the sick exceptions). Hunting is probably one of the most basic of human instincts. We must hunt to survive. Whether you hunt in the wild with the intent to bring home a deer, or go to the local grocery market for your tofu, you have to go out and find the means required to survive. Something had to die for you to eat it, whether plant or animal. Did you relish the kill? Of course not. Did you do it to survive and live to see another day? Of course! How is killing plants more or less ethical than killing an animal. Both were living before you or the grocer came along. Who the hell are any of us to decide where the lines are in what is and isn't acceptable to kill for food?
If you crashed in the middle of an arctic waste and the only means of survival was to eat the other members of the party who died before you did, would you do so to survive? Or would you allow yourself to die based on the immorality of eating human flesh? it's easy to sit amidst our first-world comforts and say, "I would never eat human flesh to survive." But the truth is you don't know until you are brought into the situation what your reactions and decisions will be.
You may look at animals and say it is unethical to kill them. Your ethics do not trump my drive for survival and dietary satisfaction. I do my best not to be condescending as some and criticism your green salad and tofu. Please do me the courtesy of not being condescending toward the fact that I happen to enjoy my scrambled eggs, a juicy steak, a tender chicken breast, or a delicious fillet of fish.0 -
Add to that the fact that hunters, in general, put more money and time into environmental efforts than any other group, and it seems to me that this is a pretty important thing in society.
Really? Where did you get that fact, if it is a fact? I live a rural area where just about all the men and a good percentage of the women hunt. Very few of them are environmentally friendly.
But many do donate their kills to the local hunter's food bank, which processes kills and donates the meat to local homeless shelters.
Ridiculous. Vegans just by virtue of who they are do far more than any hunter for the environment. Hunting is barbaric. Albert DeSalvio Jeffery Dommers, all the great serial killers started as hunters and animal torturers. Hunting is the antithesis of civilization.
Hunting is the same as animal torture how? I've never met a hunter who didn't put the animal down as quickly as possible.
And I never met a hunter who wasn't drunk or drinking. I grew up in a family of hunters. I know exactly how they behave.
And yes, hunting is torture. Being shot isnot a pleasure. Running for your life is not fun. Seeing members of your family die is not pleasurable.
Just because you *personally* have not met a hunter that wasn't drunk or drinking does not mean that the whole lot of people that do hunt are raging alcoholics with fire arms.
Also- you are making it out like animals have rational thoughts and think and feel things like humans- chalk that up to Disney giving us cartoons animals with voices- but a well placed shot on an animal would cause it to feel no pain.
You could say that about humans too. In fact the Boston Strangler did. So did other hunter who followed their "sport" to its logical conclusion.
again you are equating people who hunt = serial killers. While there may have been some people who are serial killers that liked to hunt, just because one HUNTS does not make them a serial killer with no feelings.
Serial killers are people who have no sense of right or wrong, who do not care if they are hurting others. Hunters, people who respect the sport and respect animals do not go out to make animals suffer, to torture them and scare them.
Stop perpetuating the misconceptions that people who hunt are these barbaric soulless people.
Oh, I see. I misunderstood. Hunters are actually sensitive men and women who care about causing pain to others. Right! If you believe that, I've got some Enron stock to sell you.0 -
Logically it's survival of the fittest and I think you just compared an animals ability to comprehend complex thought to a humans? But that whole 'you people' bit...not surprising.The only LOGICAL conclusion to hunting is dinner.
I often wondered what people like you would think and do if the earth were actually invaded by aliens who hunted and ate humans. Would your arguments be the same? If not why would they be different. Explain why us hunting animals is good but creatures who are more powerful than us eating us is bad. I'd really like to hear this.0 -
I see this thread has massively derailed and people have started to assert their superiority over others for their choice of food. Disappointing. In the early stages it was remaining civil and rational.0
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Add to that the fact that hunters, in general, put more money and time into environmental efforts than any other group, and it seems to me that this is a pretty important thing in society.
Really? Where did you get that fact, if it is a fact? I live a rural area where just about all the men and a good percentage of the women hunt. Very few of them are environmentally friendly.
But many do donate their kills to the local hunter's food bank, which processes kills and donates the meat to local homeless shelters.
Ridiculous. Vegans just by virtue of who they are do far more than any hunter for the environment. Hunting is barbaric. Albert DeSalvio Jeffery Dommers, all the great serial killers started as hunters and animal torturers. Hunting is the antithesis of civilization.
Hunting is the same as animal torture how? I've never met a hunter who didn't put the animal down as quickly as possible.
And I never met a hunter who wasn't drunk or drinking. I grew up in a family of hunters. I know exactly how they behave.
And yes, hunting is torture. Being shot isnot a pleasure. Running for your life is not fun. Seeing members of your family die is not pleasurable.
Just because you *personally* have not met a hunter that wasn't drunk or drinking does not mean that the whole lot of people that do hunt are raging alcoholics with fire arms.
Also- you are making it out like animals have rational thoughts and think and feel things like humans- chalk that up to Disney giving us cartoons animals with voices- but a well placed shot on an animal would cause it to feel no pain.
You could say that about humans too. In fact the Boston Strangler did. So did other hunter who followed their "sport" to its logical conclusion.
again you are equating people who hunt = serial killers. While there may have been some people who are serial killers that liked to hunt, just because one HUNTS does not make them a serial killer with no feelings.
Serial killers are people who have no sense of right or wrong, who do not care if they are hurting others. Hunters, people who respect the sport and respect animals do not go out to make animals suffer, to torture them and scare them.
Stop perpetuating the misconceptions that people who hunt are these barbaric soulless people.
Oh, I see. I misunderstood. Hunters are actually sensitive men and women who care about causing pain to others. Right! If you believe that, I've got some Enron stock to sell you.
I'm not having arguments in this thread. Constructive discussion, please.0 -
I feel the same way about this as I do about religion. Do what you like, I will do my best to respect your views unless you're doing something that I am morally opposed to. I will try to remember your stance and bear that in mind, but cut me some slack if I forget.
If you try to force your way of life on me or ride me too much for not remembering some detail about how you want to live, well then I'll be the pr*ck that actively tries to piss you off and mocks you in public.
Also please pass the bacon.
^this^
I will not argue with vegetarians or vegans on who is right or wrong. I honestly don't care if others chose not to eat meat or whatever. What angers me is when they act smug or better than people who eat meat. I am certainly not saying all vegans are like this. I have plenty of vegan and vegetarian friends. We respect eachothers diets and don't question it.
But this topic is a lot like a religious belief issues. Most people can get along without a problem, but there's always those people that believe that their way is the right way and everyone should follow them. I do not like people that preach to me about anything and I will certainly let you know if you are irritating me with trying to get me to change my ways. The fact that I eat meat, does not directly effect your life so you shouldn't act like I am hurting you in some way because of what I eat.
I agree with the both of you. One size shoe does
not fit all. BTW, I love a nice salad with a side of
steak. Throw in an evil carb, and you have a great
meal!
Could be worse, the government could try and
mandate the perfect diet. Then again, If it were
up to the government, pizza would be a vegetable. :laugh:0 -
I see this thread has massively derailed and people have started to assert their superiority over others for their choice of food. Disappointing. In the early stages it was remaining civil and rational.
Yeah. Knew it would eventually go to pot. Did well for quite a while though, eh!0 -
This gets thrown at vegetarians a lot and simply isn't true. Vegetarian meals were a medical prescription of the time, and while Hitler did reduce his meat consumption he never stopped eating meat. His favorite meats were sausages and roast squab.
Some historians incorrectly decided that Hitler was a vegetarian, and people have been using this myth ever since as an easy bash against vegetarians.
Even if it were true, so what? Hitler also loved his dogs. Does that make anyone who owns a pet dog just like Hitler? Oh hell, I've got 3 dogs. I'm 3x as bad as Hitler
Edit: And that stupid vegetarians are evil nonsense conveniently leaves out the fact that most of the evil people in the world have been meat eaters.0 -
The only LOGICAL conclusion to hunting is dinner.
I often wondered what people like you would think and do if the earth were actually invaded by aliens who hunted and ate humans. Would your arguments be the same? If not why would they be different. Explain why us hunting animals is good but creatures who are more powerful than us eating us is bad. I'd really like to hear this.
Why don't we spin this another way, then. The same scenario - what would YOU do if something was hostile and trying to eat you? I feel that it is the circle of life. One thing is eaten by another thing, is eaten by bigger thing... Deer don't want to be eaten by us as we don't want to be eaten by sharks. But that's how a food chain goes.
So you would accept it? You wouldn't see ANYTHING unjust about it or unfair. You would just shrug your shoulders while you watched your family get killed and eaten? Assuming you could talk to them you wouldn't try to convince them that what they were doing was immoral?0 -
I think both diets can be great if you eat the right foods for eat diet.
A meat based diet can definitely be unhealthy sometimes. A diet high in red meat, animal fats, and starchy foods is not healthy.
But a vegan that only eats vegan bars, and bocca burgers isn't going to be healthy either. Neither is a vegan who only eats fruits n veggies, without supplementing their need for natural fats (nuts, avo, ect).
I've been both, and seen benefits for both sides.
I mostly eat meat now to meet my macros because i lift so much, and i have a specific goal in mind i dont think i could accomplish on a vegan diet. xP0 -
This gets thrown at vegetarians a lot and simply isn't true. Vegetarian meals were a medical prescription of the time, and while Hitler did reduce his meat consumption he never stopped eating meat. His favorite meats were sausages and roast squab.
Some historians incorrectly decided that Hitler was a vegetarian, and people have been using this myth ever since as an easy bash against vegetarians.
Even if it were true, so what? Hitler also loved his dogs. Does that make anyone who owns a pet dog just like Hitler? Oh hell, I've got 3 dogs. I'm 3x as bad as Hitler
Hitler was mostly vegetarian not for any ethical reasons but for medical reasons. He got quite ill when he ate meat. Poor baby.0 -
I also find myself wondering whether any vegans have insect phobias. And therefore stomp on a spider when it runs across the room.
They shouldn't (though I do if my husband is not home to do a catch and release, but then I'm not vegan). Spiders are very beneficial to a garden.0 -
This gets thrown at vegetarians a lot and simply isn't true. Vegetarian meals were a medical prescription of the time, and while Hitler did reduce his meat consumption he never stopped eating meat. His favorite meats were sausages and roast squab.
Some historians incorrectly decided that Hitler was a vegetarian, and people have been using this myth ever since as an easy bash against vegetarians.
Even if it were true, so what? Hitler also loved his dogs. Does that make anyone who owns a pet dog just like Hitler? Oh hell, I've got 3 dogs. I'm 3x as bad as Hitler
Hitler was mostly vegetarian not for any ethical reasons but for medical reasons. He got quite ill when he ate meat. Poor baby.
Well Hilter wasn't the only one mentioned so..................................0 -
It tends to be the same when it comes to people going above giving ideas of why to eat meat or why to only eat vegan, they more "tell" or get mad because one way is right over the other. In one persons lifestyle its right for them, but to push the fact is over the top, why get upset and stressed because the world doesnt follow one way. I view it as the same for people pushing their form of losing weight and how its worked for them, so "everyone" is doing it wrong and needs to do it their way. This is just something we humans tend to do, I know I catch myself arguing (or am I defending myself..:huh: ) against certain issues I personally do not agree with, but I also dont expect others to be, eat, act, exercise, ect., like me. I am my own individual and I actually prefer it this way. :bigsmile:0
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http://www.drhoffman.com/page.cfm/829One of the world's most celebrated vegetarians was Adolph Hitler. In "Hitler's Table Talk," a compendium of his conversations, he is recorded as having said:
"One may regret living at a period when it's impossible to form an idea of the shape the world of the future will assume. But there's one thing I can predict to eaters of meat: the world of the future will be vegetarian."
According to the website www.vegetariansareevil.com, the following mass murderers were vegetarian: Pol Pot, the notorious dictator of Cambodia; Charles Manson; and Ghenghis Khan. Additionally, William MacDonald, Australia's most famous serial killer, was said to be vegetarian.
Dutch vegan Volkert van der Graf was a notorious militant animal rights activist convicted in the assassination of Dutch journalist Pym Fortuyn.
Being vegatarian doesn't automatically put you into some higher than thou classifcation.
Wrong. Although I am probably one of the few vegetarians who will say that to meat eaters.0 -
The only LOGICAL conclusion to hunting is dinner.
I often wondered what people like you would think and do if the earth were actually invaded by aliens who hunted and ate humans. Would your arguments be the same? If not why would they be different. Explain why us hunting animals is good but creatures who are more powerful than us eating us is bad. I'd really like to hear this.
Why don't we spin this another way, then. The same scenario - what would YOU do if something was hostile and trying to eat you? I feel that it is the circle of life. One thing is eaten by another thing, is eaten by bigger thing... Deer don't want to be eaten by us as we don't want to be eaten by sharks. But that's how a food chain goes.
So you would accept it? You wouldn't see ANYTHING unjust about it or unfair. You would just shrug your shoulders while you watched your family get killed and eaten? Assuming you could talk to them you wouldn't try to convince them that what they were doing was immoral?
Are you one of those types to freak out when you see a lion eat a gazelle on national geographic? lol. How is stronger animals killing weaker animals unfair? Its going to happen on one level or another regardless of wither humans choose to eat meat or not.
If your referring to the way we choose to farm animals being unfair, i would agree though. xP0 -
again you are equating people who hunt = serial killers. While there may have been some people who are serial killers that liked to hunt, just because one HUNTS does not make them a serial killer with no feelings.
Serial killers are people who have no sense of right or wrong, who do not care if they are hurting others. Hunters, people who respect the sport and respect animals do not go out to make animals suffer, to torture them and scare them.
Stop perpetuating the misconceptions that people who hunt are these barbaric soulless people.
Oh, I see. I misunderstood. Hunters are actually sensitive men and women who care about causing pain to others. Right! If you believe that, I've got some Enron stock to sell you.
Pretty sure that A. You have never been hunting and B. Don't really know anyone that is a hunter.
Seeing as I have gone hunting, and I know what kind of person I am on the inside and my thoughts and feeling towards others, and the fact that I am a sensitive person, and *gasp* am not a serial killer- I can just sit here and say you are full of *kitten* and can't accept the fact that not everyone in the world plays into the stereotype you have made into your head.
I also know that arguing with you any further about this is about as constructive as me bashing my head into a brick wall.0 -
The only LOGICAL conclusion to hunting is dinner.
I often wondered what people like you would think and do if the earth were actually invaded by aliens who hunted and ate humans. Would your arguments be the same? If not why would they be different. Explain why us hunting animals is good but creatures who are more powerful than us eating us is bad. I'd really like to hear this.
Why don't we spin this another way, then. The same scenario - what would YOU do if something was hostile and trying to eat you? I feel that it is the circle of life. One thing is eaten by another thing, is eaten by bigger thing... Deer don't want to be eaten by us as we don't want to be eaten by sharks. But that's how a food chain goes.
So you would accept it? You wouldn't see ANYTHING unjust about it or unfair. You would just shrug your shoulders while you watched your family get killed and eaten? Assuming you could talk to them you wouldn't try to convince them that what they were doing was immoral?
Of course not. Where did I say that i'd stand by and watch? And i'm sure, if this did happen, we'd react the same as any other animal and run as far and as fast as possible due to survival instinct. I find it amusing to imagine myself prodding an alien in the shoulder whilst it eats my family, in an attempt to get it's attention long enough for me to explain what it was doing was immoral.0 -
http://www.drhoffman.com/page.cfm/829One of the world's most celebrated vegetarians was Adolph Hitler. In "Hitler's Table Talk," a compendium of his conversations, he is recorded as having said:
"One may regret living at a period when it's impossible to form an idea of the shape the world of the future will assume. But there's one thing I can predict to eaters of meat: the world of the future will be vegetarian."
According to the website www.vegetariansareevil.com, the following mass murderers were vegetarian: Pol Pot, the notorious dictator of Cambodia; Charles Manson; and Ghenghis Khan. Additionally, William MacDonald, Australia's most famous serial killer, was said to be vegetarian.
Dutch vegan Volkert van der Graf was a notorious militant animal rights activist convicted in the assassination of Dutch journalist Pym Fortuyn.
Being vegatarian doesn't automatically put you into some higher than thou classifcation.
Wrong. Although I am probably one of the few vegetarians who will say that to meat eaters.
I wonder why? Troll is trolling.........0 -
I think both diets can be great if you eat the right foods for eat diet.
A meat based diet can definitely be unhealthy sometimes. A diet high in red meat, animal fats, and starchy foods is not healthy.
But a vegan that only eats vegan bars, and bocca burgers isn't going to be healthy either. Neither is a vegan who only eats fruits n veggies, without supplementing their need for natural fats (nuts, avo, ect).
I've been both, and seen benefits for both sides.
I mostly eat meat now to meet my macros because i lift so much, and i have a specific goal in mind i dont think i could accomplish on a vegan diet. xP
Back to the sciency stuff of earlier, I read somewhere that people who lift are switching from meat-based proteins to plant-based because apparently it gives better results.0 -
I also find myself wondering whether any vegans have insect phobias. And therefore stomp on a spider when it runs across the room.
They shouldn't (though I do if my husband is not home to do a catch and release, but then I'm not vegan). Spiders are very beneficial to a garden.
Yes they are! Scare the hell out of me but I know what they do for our eco-system.0 -
I also find myself wondering whether any vegans have insect phobias. And therefore stomp on a spider when it runs across the room.
They shouldn't (though I do if my husband is not home to do a catch and release, but then I'm not vegan). Spiders are very beneficial to a garden.
I stomp on bugs that are dangerous, or that can spread disease to humans. I killed a fly in the kitchen not 15 minutes ago. I mostly leave spiders alone since they hunt other bugs. I don't feel that compromises my vegetarianism.0 -
The only LOGICAL conclusion to hunting is dinner.
I often wondered what people like you would think and do if the earth were actually invaded by aliens who hunted and ate humans. Would your arguments be the same? If not why would they be different. Explain why us hunting animals is good but creatures who are more powerful than us eating us is bad. I'd really like to hear this.
Why don't we spin this another way, then. The same scenario - what would YOU do if something was hostile and trying to eat you? I feel that it is the circle of life. One thing is eaten by another thing, is eaten by bigger thing... Deer don't want to be eaten by us as we don't want to be eaten by sharks. But that's how a food chain goes.
So you would accept it? You wouldn't see ANYTHING unjust about it or unfair. You would just shrug your shoulders while you watched your family get killed and eaten? Assuming you could talk to them you wouldn't try to convince them that what they were doing was immoral?
Of course not. Where did I say that i'd stand by and watch? And i'm sure, if this did happen, we'd react the same as any other animal and run as far and as fast as possible due to survival instinct. I find it amusing to imagine myself prodding an alien in the shoulder whilst it eats my family, in an attempt to get it's attention long enough for me to explain what it was doing was immoral.
It's in a situation such as you describe that having hunters in the family would be a very good thing.0 -
again you are equating people who hunt = serial killers. While there may have been some people who are serial killers that liked to hunt, just because one HUNTS does not make them a serial killer with no feelings.
Serial killers are people who have no sense of right or wrong, who do not care if they are hurting others. Hunters, people who respect the sport and respect animals do not go out to make animals suffer, to torture them and scare them.
Stop perpetuating the misconceptions that people who hunt are these barbaric soulless people.
Oh, I see. I misunderstood. Hunters are actually sensitive men and women who care about causing pain to others. Right! If you believe that, I've got some Enron stock to sell you.
Pretty sure that A. You have never been hunting and B. Don't really know anyone that is a hunter.
Seeing as I have gone hunting, and I know what kind of person I am on the inside and my thoughts and feeling towards others, and the fact that I am a sensitive person, and *gasp* am not a serial killer- I can just sit here and say you are full of *kitten* and can't accept the fact that not everyone in the world plays into the stereotype you have made into your head.
I also know that arguing with you any further about this is about as constructive as me bashing my head into a brick wall.
^^^^bazinga0 -
Don't worry. The quoted poster actually believing that they're better than a meat eater automatically makes them an *kitten* and thus counteracts their claim.http://www.drhoffman.com/page.cfm/829One of the world's most celebrated vegetarians was Adolph Hitler. In "Hitler's Table Talk," a compendium of his conversations, he is recorded as having said:
"One may regret living at a period when it's impossible to form an idea of the shape the world of the future will assume. But there's one thing I can predict to eaters of meat: the world of the future will be vegetarian."
According to the website www.vegetariansareevil.com, the following mass murderers were vegetarian: Pol Pot, the notorious dictator of Cambodia; Charles Manson; and Ghenghis Khan. Additionally, William MacDonald, Australia's most famous serial killer, was said to be vegetarian.
Dutch vegan Volkert van der Graf was a notorious militant animal rights activist convicted in the assassination of Dutch journalist Pym Fortuyn.
Being vegatarian doesn't automatically put you into some higher than thou classifcation.
Wrong. Although I am probably one of the few vegetarians who will say that to meat eaters.0
This discussion has been closed.
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